I read another post by you about speakers. While im not an audiophile
I do like good sound. I have an older pair of cerwin vega vs120
speakers. They sound great to my ear BUT there is a problem. my space
is a lot more limited than it was when i bought them. I've thought
about building new boxes for them a little smaller. I only need to go
1/2 inch narower but i gotta shorten them by 4 inches. Then i would
use the speakers and crossovers in the new boxes. In your oppinon
will i lose a lot in quality by doing this? also what material would
be good? I realy dispise mdf and I realy dont like particle board of
any type. solid wood would look the best but I'm not sure how this
would effect sound quality either. I have been to web sites about DIY
speakers and am sorry to say they speak a language i don't understand.
I'm just a dumb carpenter with a HS education. :-] We can take it to
e-mail if need be. any suggestions? Again tech terms mean little to
this old hillbilly so english please! thanx skeez
On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 17:02:29 -0600, Iraxl Enb <[email protected]>
wrote:
>okay, i know i am butting in, and am not BAD...
>
>with speakers you want them to produce the sound that the driver
>is producing, not change it in any way. With solid wood, the
>wood would have a resonating frequency due to which it would
>amplify some sounds more than others. Plainspeak: if you tap a
>box made with the same thickness of MDF and solid wood, the box
>made with mdf would produce a duller thud. That is kind of what
>you need for a good speaker cabinet.
>
makes sense
>And changing the volume of the cabinet will change the
>perforfmance of the driver. If possible, you might want to
>increase the depth to keep the volume the same.
>
dave mentioned that also and thats not a problem. i can get more or
less the volume thats there now realy easy. got plenty of room to make
deeper.
>I suppose that this is a sealed cabinet, otherwise you get into
>other issues with the size and length of the port etc...
>
>Oh wait. I checked. This is a bass reflex speaker - it has a
>hole in the back.
>
yup 2 of em.
>My opinion is you sell this on ebay and buy something that will
>fit better. Even if you just use the money from selling these to
>buy new speakers, I think you will get better sound quality than
>messing with these, YMMV...
>
i have listened to many smaller bookshelf speakers and have not been
impressed yet. these just sound sooooo goooood i hate to part with em.
till you get into realy high priced its hard to find the sound quality
im used to.i suppose i could use these in another room though.
>irax.
>
>
thanks for the reply skeez
>[email protected] wrote:
>> I read another post by you about speakers. While im not an audiophile
>> I do like good sound. I have an older pair of cerwin vega vs120
>> speakers. They sound great to my ear BUT there is a problem. my space
>> is a lot more limited than it was when i bought them. I've thought
>> about building new boxes for them a little smaller. I only need to go
>> 1/2 inch narower but i gotta shorten them by 4 inches. Then i would
>> use the speakers and crossovers in the new boxes. In your oppinon
>> will i lose a lot in quality by doing this? also what material would
>> be good? I realy dispise mdf and I realy dont like particle board of
>> any type. solid wood would look the best but I'm not sure how this
>> would effect sound quality either. I have been to web sites about DIY
>> speakers and am sorry to say they speak a language i don't understand.
>> I'm just a dumb carpenter with a HS education. :-] We can take it to
>> e-mail if need be. any suggestions? Again tech terms mean little to
>> this old hillbilly so english please! thanx skeez
When I got my ADS's I labored long and hard over my choice: the
finalists were Dahlquists and the ADS's. I almost got the Apogees but
decided the vague sound staging from a panel speaker didn't make up for
the generally wonderful sound. The early Snell's also thrilled me, but
they were on the large side. I think I was listening to them before
Peter passed away. That rear facing tweeter was one of the few "tricks"
that I ever tolerated well. Must of the audio gimmicks just don't do it
for me like bass doubling (dbx) and dynamic range enhancements
(expansion OR compression), also dbx's claim to fame.
Imagine a pop music recording engineer mixing back in the 60's and 70's
when so much music was played over car radios with atrocious speakers
and almost no wattage, while on the other hand home systems were
starting to get pretty good! Nowadays an auto system can rival the
impact and clarity of a home system. I loved the sound of my Nak/ADS
system in my Olds. It was clear, smooth and LOUD! (biamped, of course).
The worst snob I ever met was a salesman at Garland Audio, San Jose.
Being an audiophile at the time, my idea of a great time was to visit
the local audio salons to find that "perfect" amp. I actually looked
for almost 2 years. I took home Threshold (the runner up), Bryston,
SAE, Macintosh, Adcom, Audio Research, Carver (what a joke -- a true
sonic POS, and no power switch. it was a small cube. remember?), and
some others that I've forgotten. Oh, yeah, and I was on the brink of
getting a Spectral preamp, but decided to set my sights lower and got an
Apt. Anyway, I digress: the point is that I had been in more than a
couple times to Garland and this joker of a salesman had the nerve to
tell me that I was a "fantasy buyer" who only looked and never bought.
The joke was on him because within a couple of weeks I'd bought a
Dragon, the Levinson, a Linn Sondek LP12 and of course none of it came
from Garland. Stupid me should have avoided the Linn because within a
year, CD players got a lot better than the first generation or two and I
went CD. No more cleaning LP's every play! And no more flipping them
over! I thought I'd died and gone to heaven, listening to Linda
Rondstadt's "What's New" album on CD, which is what I used to do my CD
comparison testing with.
Geez, hope I didn't bore the hell out of you!
dave
Swingman wrote:
> I owned a pair of AR-3 bookshelves back in the old days. Now I pretty much
> stick to "el cheapos" at home, very much on purpose ... if a mix I bring
> home sounds good over my Best Buy, mediocre system, it's generally going to
> sound 'killer' over BAD's system.
>
> Actually I run JBL down all the time, but I do a good deal of mixing over a
> pair of JBL, self powered, near field monitors ... they're a good reality
> check. We also have a pair of high end Nova Audio's near fields sitting next
> to the JBL's on the console, which we were given to _audition_ a while
> back... I don't want to give them back, and may not. :)
>
> In the studio, it is not so much the quality/cost of the monitor as the
> ability of the mix engineer to make the mix "translate" to the outside
> world's speakers over whatever he/she is using ... that comes more with an
> ongoing familiarity with a particular speaker, than with the quality of
> same. It's a real subjective thing, which is why some of us fly around with
> our favorite near field's in a flight case.
>
> Just about any engineer worth his salt will tell you that the toughest part
> is getting the bottom end of a mix right, so you don't want too little, or
> too much bottom in your studio monitors, or you'll have too much or too
> little, respectively, in your mixes.
>
> Many an album as been mixed over those little $100 Auratones I was talking
> about, or the old Yamaha NS10's with a piece of Kleenex over the tweeter to
> get rid of the harshness ... someone even marketed a tissue holder for the
> damn things at one point years ago. The ironic part is that some folks then
> spend literally tens of thousands to play those very same mixes back at
> home. :)
>
> Audiophiles are some of the most practiced snobs around, worse in some ways
> than wine snobs ... well ... maybe not! ;>)
>
okay, i know i am butting in, and am not BAD...
with speakers you want them to produce the sound that the driver
is producing, not change it in any way. With solid wood, the
wood would have a resonating frequency due to which it would
amplify some sounds more than others. Plainspeak: if you tap a
box made with the same thickness of MDF and solid wood, the box
made with mdf would produce a duller thud. That is kind of what
you need for a good speaker cabinet.
And changing the volume of the cabinet will change the
perforfmance of the driver. If possible, you might want to
increase the depth to keep the volume the same.
I suppose that this is a sealed cabinet, otherwise you get into
other issues with the size and length of the port etc...
Oh wait. I checked. This is a bass reflex speaker - it has a
hole in the back.
My opinion is you sell this on ebay and buy something that will
fit better. Even if you just use the money from selling these to
buy new speakers, I think you will get better sound quality than
messing with these, YMMV...
irax.
[email protected] wrote:
> I read another post by you about speakers. While im not an audiophile
> I do like good sound. I have an older pair of cerwin vega vs120
> speakers. They sound great to my ear BUT there is a problem. my space
> is a lot more limited than it was when i bought them. I've thought
> about building new boxes for them a little smaller. I only need to go
> 1/2 inch narower but i gotta shorten them by 4 inches. Then i would
> use the speakers and crossovers in the new boxes. In your oppinon
> will i lose a lot in quality by doing this? also what material would
> be good? I realy dispise mdf and I realy dont like particle board of
> any type. solid wood would look the best but I'm not sure how this
> would effect sound quality either. I have been to web sites about DIY
> speakers and am sorry to say they speak a language i don't understand.
> I'm just a dumb carpenter with a HS education. :-] We can take it to
> e-mail if need be. any suggestions? Again tech terms mean little to
> this old hillbilly so english please! thanx skeez
I owned a pair of 810's back in the 70's. They were the best all around
speakers that I had ever listened to. I now own several pairs including the
ADS 1230's ( not in the same league as the 810's ). Maybe someday, I'll run
into another pair of 810's.
Bay Area Dave wrote:
> Bose must have done a lot of guessing!! I HATE the sound of Bose
> speakers! And JBL's, for that matter. Give me something with a flatter
> response and smooth, extended silky high end. and no thumpy, fakey bass
> either. Ever heard ADS 810's?
>
> dave
>
> Greg wrote:
>
> > [email protected] said:
> >
> >
> >>I read another post by you about speakers. While im not an audiophile
> >>I do like good sound. I have an older pair of cerwin vega vs120
> >>speakers. They sound great to my ear BUT there is a problem. my space
> >>is a lot more limited than it was when i bought them. I've thought
> >>about building new boxes for them a little smaller. I only need to go
> >>1/2 inch narower but i gotta shorten them by 4 inches. Then i would
> >>use the speakers and crossovers in the new boxes. In your oppinon
> >>will i lose a lot in quality by doing this? also what material would
> >>be good? I realy dispise mdf and I realy dont like particle board of
> >>any type. solid wood would look the best but I'm not sure how this
> >>would effect sound quality either. I have been to web sites about DIY
> >>speakers and am sorry to say they speak a language i don't understand.
> >>I'm just a dumb carpenter with a HS education. :-] We can take it to
> >>e-mail if need be. any suggestions? Again tech terms mean little to
> >>this old hillbilly so english please! thanx skeez
> >
> >
> > Solid wood colors the sound, due to resonance. Use THICK MDF, but
> > veneer it or paint it with black lacquer if you don't like its looks.
> > All joints must be airtight and solid. The dimensions (LxWxD) of
> > better speakers are chosen to reduce mathematical multiples of
> > standing waves present in the enclosure - changing these dimensions
> > can increase the intensity and quantity of 'bumps' in the response
> > curve due to these standing waves. Non-parallel walls help reduce
> > internal standing waves. Most of the enclosure's volume is for tuning
> > the woofer, the midrange and tweeters should be isolated from the main
> > chamber volume to eliminate blowing the cones out of the midrange and
> > tweeters, and to eliminate intermodulation distortion.
> >
> > If you change the volume of the box, it WILL upset the tuning of the
> > enclosure. Generally, making the box smaller will push the resonance
> > point up, and you will loose deep bass, and end up with an annoying
> > bass peak at 80-100Hz. The enclosure and driver match and resulting
> > resonant frequency determines the beginning of the low end rolloff
> > point. On a bass reflex, you can make minor adjustments with the port
> > length and diameter, but without test equipment, you are guessing.
> >
> > FWIW,
> >
> > Greg G.
Remember too that your crossover can be used to get a flatter response out
of your speaker, If you feel like tweaking it at all (Only if the crossover
is not one of those mounted on a circuit board and then covered in epoxy) as
well as the proper selection of drivers if you decide to use something other
than your CV drivers. As has been noted before in this thread, MDF is quite
good for cabinets, but is unfortunately not the best looking, (as SWMBO
reminds me constantly) and is hell on blades. If you don't like the looks,
you could also overlay the MDF with solids or veneer. Just my butting in 2
cents worth.
Paul
"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bose must have done a lot of guessing!! I HATE the sound of Bose
> speakers! And JBL's, for that matter. Give me something with a flatter
> response and smooth, extended silky high end. and no thumpy, fakey bass
> either. Ever heard ADS 810's?
>
> dave
>
> Greg wrote:
>
> > [email protected] said:
> >
> >
> >>I read another post by you about speakers. While im not an audiophile
> >>I do like good sound. I have an older pair of cerwin vega vs120
> >>speakers. They sound great to my ear BUT there is a problem. my space
> >>is a lot more limited than it was when i bought them. I've thought
> >>about building new boxes for them a little smaller. I only need to go
> >>1/2 inch narower but i gotta shorten them by 4 inches. Then i would
> >>use the speakers and crossovers in the new boxes. In your oppinon
> >>will i lose a lot in quality by doing this? also what material would
> >>be good? I realy dispise mdf and I realy dont like particle board of
> >>any type. solid wood would look the best but I'm not sure how this
> >>would effect sound quality either. I have been to web sites about DIY
> >>speakers and am sorry to say they speak a language i don't understand.
> >>I'm just a dumb carpenter with a HS education. :-] We can take it to
> >>e-mail if need be. any suggestions? Again tech terms mean little to
> >>this old hillbilly so english please! thanx skeez
> >
> >
> > Solid wood colors the sound, due to resonance. Use THICK MDF, but
> > veneer it or paint it with black lacquer if you don't like its looks.
> > All joints must be airtight and solid. The dimensions (LxWxD) of
> > better speakers are chosen to reduce mathematical multiples of
> > standing waves present in the enclosure - changing these dimensions
> > can increase the intensity and quantity of 'bumps' in the response
> > curve due to these standing waves. Non-parallel walls help reduce
> > internal standing waves. Most of the enclosure's volume is for tuning
> > the woofer, the midrange and tweeters should be isolated from the main
> > chamber volume to eliminate blowing the cones out of the midrange and
> > tweeters, and to eliminate intermodulation distortion.
> >
> > If you change the volume of the box, it WILL upset the tuning of the
> > enclosure. Generally, making the box smaller will push the resonance
> > point up, and you will loose deep bass, and end up with an annoying
> > bass peak at 80-100Hz. The enclosure and driver match and resulting
> > resonant frequency determines the beginning of the low end rolloff
> > point. On a bass reflex, you can make minor adjustments with the port
> > length and diameter, but without test equipment, you are guessing.
> >
> > FWIW,
> >
> > Greg G.
>
On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 02:13:21 GMT, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>Bose must have done a lot of guessing!! I HATE the sound of Bose
>speakers!
"No highs, no lows, must be Bose!" <G>
Barry
Bose must have done a lot of guessing!! I HATE the sound of Bose
speakers! And JBL's, for that matter. Give me something with a flatter
response and smooth, extended silky high end. and no thumpy, fakey bass
either. Ever heard ADS 810's?
dave
Greg wrote:
> [email protected] said:
>
>
>>I read another post by you about speakers. While im not an audiophile
>>I do like good sound. I have an older pair of cerwin vega vs120
>>speakers. They sound great to my ear BUT there is a problem. my space
>>is a lot more limited than it was when i bought them. I've thought
>>about building new boxes for them a little smaller. I only need to go
>>1/2 inch narower but i gotta shorten them by 4 inches. Then i would
>>use the speakers and crossovers in the new boxes. In your oppinon
>>will i lose a lot in quality by doing this? also what material would
>>be good? I realy dispise mdf and I realy dont like particle board of
>>any type. solid wood would look the best but I'm not sure how this
>>would effect sound quality either. I have been to web sites about DIY
>>speakers and am sorry to say they speak a language i don't understand.
>>I'm just a dumb carpenter with a HS education. :-] We can take it to
>>e-mail if need be. any suggestions? Again tech terms mean little to
>>this old hillbilly so english please! thanx skeez
>
>
> Solid wood colors the sound, due to resonance. Use THICK MDF, but
> veneer it or paint it with black lacquer if you don't like its looks.
> All joints must be airtight and solid. The dimensions (LxWxD) of
> better speakers are chosen to reduce mathematical multiples of
> standing waves present in the enclosure - changing these dimensions
> can increase the intensity and quantity of 'bumps' in the response
> curve due to these standing waves. Non-parallel walls help reduce
> internal standing waves. Most of the enclosure's volume is for tuning
> the woofer, the midrange and tweeters should be isolated from the main
> chamber volume to eliminate blowing the cones out of the midrange and
> tweeters, and to eliminate intermodulation distortion.
>
> If you change the volume of the box, it WILL upset the tuning of the
> enclosure. Generally, making the box smaller will push the resonance
> point up, and you will loose deep bass, and end up with an annoying
> bass peak at 80-100Hz. The enclosure and driver match and resulting
> resonant frequency determines the beginning of the low end rolloff
> point. On a bass reflex, you can make minor adjustments with the port
> length and diameter, but without test equipment, you are guessing.
>
> FWIW,
>
> Greg G.
Perhaps it _was_ DIY, but it was an unusual night for WoodWorks hereabouts
... just a couple of night ago, AAMOF. Usually he is just on Saturday
evenings around here, so I rarely get to see him.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/02/04
<Greg G.> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You say Mr. Tung Oil is back on HGTV? I have scanned the listings,
> but come up with nothing. Heck, I can't even get all of Norm's new
> shows on the local PBS station, because they pre-empt several shows a
> season for their stupid beg-a-thons - positively reducing my desire to
> contribute to nil.
Swingman said:
>Been a while since you watched, eh? ... it's more like 15:30 out of 30 now.
>Some cable channels are worse, IME.
Yes, it varies depending on the station. Norm's old shows are cut
down to 22 minutes on HGTV - I know only because I have them all
encoded on CD. Along with 3 seasons of David Marks' show. Norm is a
bit of a hack, but he seems to be a nice guy.
>I swore up and down for years that I would never pay for commercials to be
>beamed into my home, using a technology that my tax dollars paid for, by a
>government sanctioned monopoly ... those who contribute to the estrogen
>heavy atmosphere around here finally got their way a couple of years ago.
>However, the ONLY thing I watch is David J. Marks.
LMAO! I understand...
We have cable, a requirement of doing nationwide computer work at
home. Unfortunately, Marks in only on DIY at this time, and we're not
interesting paying even MORE for the DIY channel. HGTV was running
Marks' show, but not any longer. And Bruce Johnson is an idiot - hell
will freeze over before paying money to see more of his antics...
>BTW, I was always puzzled as to why a lot of folks were always saying how
>"stiff" he looked and sounded because he always looked comfortable and
>sounded fine to me ... guess I'd never seen any of his earlier shows. They
>had one on HGTV a couple of nights ago where he made a curio cabinet out of
>cherry and curly maple ... the set lighting was different, his hair looked
>like he'd just been sheep sheared, and he was "stiff" as hell ... now I
>know.
Some of his shows have him looking like he just rolled out of bed!
(Perhaps the bedroll he puts on top of the U.S.S Saratoga Jointer...)
A few even have him looking like he took a big toke of wacky weed
before filming - red eyes, stilted speech and mannerisms. I don't
really care what he looks like, I appreciate his creative approach to
things. I understand he has some trouble with his hands as well.
Carpal-tunel or something...
You say Mr. Tung Oil is back on HGTV? I have scanned the listings,
but come up with nothing. Heck, I can't even get all of Norm's new
shows on the local PBS station, because they pre-empt several shows a
season for their stupid beg-a-thons - positively reducing my desire to
contribute to nil.
Greg G.
Bay Area Dave said:
>Greg, speaking of AR's, I got my dad's AR3's as part of a wedding gift
>back in 70. Those were 3 way with level controls on the back. The bass
>was awesome! The controls weren't such a hot idea, as the pots would
>eventually get dead spots and the tweeter would shut down as you tried
>to adjust their level. Then I blew out one of the tweeters, but thank
>God it was under warranty. Probably due to clipping, as the Fischer
>440T that was driving them was too puny to deliver the kind of levels
>that I liked without some distortion. So know I have an amp that puts
>out tons of juice -- a Mark Levinson. Best piece of ANY kind of
>equipment or toy I've ever owned.
>
>dave
I don't know if ARs are of the same quality since Teledyne bought them
up, but some of their old stuff was pretty good. Ditto on the level
controls - they all suck, not just ARs. My current speakers have a
3db +/- switch that seems to hold up fine - plenty of range for
moderate 'drapery' tuning. And yes, clipping in a low power amp
creates a rich plethora of harmonic TIM that will fry a tweeter
without you even hearing it.
I have a homebuilt 350 watt class AB dual channel amp from the 80s.
Then I get a lot of recent 'consumer' stuff from the junk piles of
various shops, and after fixing it, it never sounds right. No dynamic
range, a crispiness in the high end that I find annoying. Then I hook
up the old 350 and all is right again. I keep trying to find a modern
(pre) amp, with all the remote features, fancy AC3 5.1 inputs, video
switching and such that sounds good - but no such luck. They just
don't make anything today that sounds like an analog 'wire with gain.'
I have a pile of neglected Sony, Pioneer, etc. amps that just don't
cut the mustard. 200 watts per channel x 5 @ .01% THD my ass!
I also have an old Yamaha P2250 rack mount amp, meant more for sound
stage use than home stereo, but it sounds almost as good - if you can
get over the unusual appearance of balanced XLR connectors on the
back.
Big old amps, and romex speaker wiring - yea! ;-)
Monster cables are pure marketing hype! Went on a call last year, and
the guy had gone whole-hog on the 'monster cables' and such on his new
'home-entertaiment center'. 16:9 projection TV, DVDs, S-VHS VCRs,
laser disc, 5.1 amp, satellite, etc. The owner couldn't believe it
when I found that his problem was one of these high dollar video
cables. Pulled the defective one apart to find cheap chinese
connectors CRIMPED onto the crap wire - but not very well. Soldered
it back together and laughed on my way out the door at the prospect of
what he paid for these cables, and what the salesman's commission must
have been.
P.T. Barnum was right...
Greg G.
I agree if it has a port, it's not a good idea to monkey with building a
new enclosure, UNLESS your ears are not too critical...
dave
Iraxl Enb wrote:
> okay, i know i am butting in, and am not BAD...
>
> with speakers you want them to produce the sound that the driver is
> producing, not change it in any way. With solid wood, the wood would
> have a resonating frequency due to which it would amplify some sounds
> more than others. Plainspeak: if you tap a box made with the same
> thickness of MDF and solid wood, the box made with mdf would produce a
> duller thud. That is kind of what you need for a good speaker cabinet.
>
> And changing the volume of the cabinet will change the perforfmance of
> the driver. If possible, you might want to increase the depth to keep
> the volume the same.
>
> I suppose that this is a sealed cabinet, otherwise you get into other
> issues with the size and length of the port etc...
>
> Oh wait. I checked. This is a bass reflex speaker - it has a hole in
> the back.
>
> My opinion is you sell this on ebay and buy something that will fit
> better. Even if you just use the money from selling these to buy new
> speakers, I think you will get better sound quality than messing with
> these, YMMV...
>
> irax.
>
>
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> I read another post by you about speakers. While im not an audiophile
>> I do like good sound. I have an older pair of cerwin vega vs120
>> speakers. They sound great to my ear BUT there is a problem. my space
>> is a lot more limited than it was when i bought them. I've thought
>> about building new boxes for them a little smaller. I only need to go
>> 1/2 inch narower but i gotta shorten them by 4 inches. Then i would
>> use the speakers and crossovers in the new boxes. In your oppinon
>> will i lose a lot in quality by doing this? also what material would
>> be good? I realy dispise mdf and I realy dont like particle board of
>> any type. solid wood would look the best but I'm not sure how this
>> would effect sound quality either. I have been to web sites about DIY
>> speakers and am sorry to say they speak a language i don't understand.
>> I'm just a dumb carpenter with a HS education. :-] We can take it to
>> e-mail if need be. any suggestions? Again tech terms mean little to
>> this old hillbilly so english please! thanx skeez
>
>
I owned a pair of AR-3 bookshelves back in the old days. Now I pretty much
stick to "el cheapos" at home, very much on purpose ... if a mix I bring
home sounds good over my Best Buy, mediocre system, it's generally going to
sound 'killer' over BAD's system.
Actually I run JBL down all the time, but I do a good deal of mixing over a
pair of JBL, self powered, near field monitors ... they're a good reality
check. We also have a pair of high end Nova Audio's near fields sitting next
to the JBL's on the console, which we were given to _audition_ a while
back... I don't want to give them back, and may not. :)
In the studio, it is not so much the quality/cost of the monitor as the
ability of the mix engineer to make the mix "translate" to the outside
world's speakers over whatever he/she is using ... that comes more with an
ongoing familiarity with a particular speaker, than with the quality of
same. It's a real subjective thing, which is why some of us fly around with
our favorite near field's in a flight case.
Just about any engineer worth his salt will tell you that the toughest part
is getting the bottom end of a mix right, so you don't want too little, or
too much bottom in your studio monitors, or you'll have too much or too
little, respectively, in your mixes.
Many an album as been mixed over those little $100 Auratones I was talking
about, or the old Yamaha NS10's with a piece of Kleenex over the tweeter to
get rid of the harshness ... someone even marketed a tissue holder for the
damn things at one point years ago. The ironic part is that some folks then
spend literally tens of thousands to play those very same mixes back at
home. :)
Audiophiles are some of the most practiced snobs around, worse in some ways
than wine snobs ... well ... maybe not! ;>)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/02/04
<Greg G.> wrote in message
> Swingman said:
>
> >"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." wrote in message
> >
> >> "No highs, no lows, must be Bose!" <G>
> >
> >JBL - Junk But Loud
>
> I can't remember the exact model number, but I used to have a pair of
> OLD AR speakers on my repair bench. Damn those things would rock!
> They were an irregular shape, and only two way, but they had a deep
> bottom end and amazing SPL levels for smallish bookshelf speakers.
> Would have made great small studio mix monitors.
Greg,
Gee, I'm gonna commiserate with you a second time today! About the
missus not enjoying the hell out of watching DVD's on a big screen, I
mean! My wife and I LOVE watching movies on our BS; beats the heck out
of broadcast TV. We watched Seabiscuit a couple nights ago which was a
real visual treat; that sucker was probably the clearest, sharpest movie
we've ever seen. Cranked up the stereo to hear and feel the visceral
impact of those hooves pounding the track!
dave
Greg wrote:
> Swingman said:
>
>
>>"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
>
>
>>>Geez, hope I didn't bore the hell out of you!
>>
>>Not a bit. Bet Greg G is all ears also ... no pun intended! ;>)
>
>
> Ahhh.... I missed all the fun. Had to finish an ASP program and
> associated web page form for an office supply dealer. ;-)
>
> But you did bring back memories of hanging around the REAL stereo
> shops, reading about and spending too much money on 'phile equipment.
>
> These days, I spend that money on tools! SWMBO has NO interest in
> electronic equipment, and *her* living room TV is a 15 year old 25"
> RCA console that I shot the CRT in to make it watchable. I have a 35"
> Panasonic I've been saving for her, but she won't hear of it. I even
> offered to build a nice corner cabinet. I'll have to go secretly pull
> a few parts out before she'll even consider the 35". Go figure...
>
> We watch the occasional DVD in my "AV room" (daylight basement) and
> her comments consist of "the special effects are too loud, the bass
> scares me, and the Mits BS is too big." :-|
>
>
> Greg G.
oh man, I remember those POS Yamahas! They had the driest bass of any
speaker that I'd auditioned! Drums sounded like blocks of wood being
pounded upon. Nasty!
dave
Swingman wrote:
> .. and most of what folks love to listen to over those things was mixed over
> some Auratone Cubes about 4" square, or worse yet, Yamaha NS10's. ;>)
>
Barry, I got mine before it was Madrigal. Word I got was Levinson was
forced out of his own company and later started ?? making another line
of audio equipment. Damn, I wish my memory for names was better. He
built some god awful expensive gear. It's on the tip of my tongue... :)
Can you help me out??
dave
B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 19:39:33 GMT, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>So know I have an amp that puts
>>out tons of juice -- a Mark Levinson. Best piece of ANY kind of
>>equipment or toy I've ever owned.
>
>
> They used to make those right down the street from me. Madrigal Audio
> Labs was located in Middletown, CT, seemingly forever.
>
> The parent company, which is now the same as JBL, Lexicon, and several
> other brands, closed the Middletown shop last year.
>
> Barry
Wow, it IS a small world! I was so enamored with the Threshold that I
took one home for more critical listening than one can ever hope to
arrange at an audio store that I took out my SX-70 and took pictures of
those massive caps. <g> (Don't tell your friend, but I unscrewed the
top of the case...) Ultimately I realized that the Threshold had a
noticeable issue with the highs and was crestfallen to know that my long
search for a suitable amp would continue.
I haven't heard the Novas, as they came out after I stopped frequenting
the audio shops. I used to get all the tweak mags like Absolute Sound
and Stereophile, but couldn't quite get into their thing of hearing
sonic improvements using Litz wire in phono connects and cones under
your speakers. I was just after equipment that had balanced sound and
plenty of power to shake the house when E. Power Biggs (or Virgil Fox)
hit the low notes.
Which reminds me: I made the mistake of picking up a couple of Dahlquist
13" subs. I placed them under the 810's. I finally sold them; every
time I'd listen to a Fleetwood Mac album I could hear distortion in the
vocals--I pinned it down to the cones in the DQ's were resonating at mid
frequencies, blurring the vocals. Plus the DQ's were way too slow. I
should've spent the money on a powered ADS sub that had the tightest
bass I've ever heard coming out of any home system sub. I was reluctant
to spend $1,200 or so on it, but like anything else, if you aren't gonna
pay the price, you won't get what you really want. In the end, I've
been happy with the 810's without subs and when I feel the urge to hear
a bit more bass I crank up the low bass control on the Apt.
Any idea how much a current Threshold goes for now? A couple of Mark
Levinsons nowadays are so out of my price range it's not funny: $32,000
for two mono amps!
dave
Swingman wrote:
> "Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
>
>
>>for almost 2 years. I took home Threshold (the runner up), Bryston,
>
>
> Small world ... the company that now makes Threshold amps is the same bunch
> that makes the Nova Audio speakers I have in the studio... one of the
> principals is a good friend and current band mate. I haven't been able to
> swing one of the amps yet, but I'm still trying. He just left this morning
> for CES in Las Vegas ... hmmmm ... I wonder if they locked the shop ......
>
>
>>Geez, hope I didn't bore the hell out of you!
>
>
> Not a bit. Bet Greg G is all ears also ... no pun intended! ;>)
>
Greg, speaking of AR's, I got my dad's AR3's as part of a wedding gift
back in 70. Those were 3 way with level controls on the back. The bass
was awesome! The controls weren't such a hot idea, as the pots would
eventually get dead spots and the tweeter would shut down as you tried
to adjust their level. Then I blew out one of the tweeters, but thank
God it was under warranty. Probably due to clipping, as the Fischer
440T that was driving them was too puny to deliver the kind of levels
that I liked without some distortion. So know I have an amp that puts
out tons of juice -- a Mark Levinson. Best piece of ANY kind of
equipment or toy I've ever owned.
dave
Greg wrote:
> Swingman said:
>
>
>>"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." wrote in message
>>
>>
>>>"No highs, no lows, must be Bose!" <G>
>>
>>JBL - Junk But Loud
>
>
> I can't remember the exact model number, but I used to have a pair of
> OLD AR speakers on my repair bench. Damn those things would rock!
> They were an irregular shape, and only two way, but they had a deep
> bottom end and amazing SPL levels for smallish bookshelf speakers.
> Would have made great small studio mix monitors.
>
> Now everything sold caters to the moron crowd, with boomy bass
> response at 80Hz and no real bottom end. Ugghhh....
>
> When I was younger, and had the time to spend the time on such things,
> I built enclosures in my old Peugeot that went almost flat to 40Hz.
> Listening to piano music in traffic was amazing! Now, like Dave, I
> have only the POS Ford radios and speakers - I can barely stand to
> turn them on...
>
>
> Greg G.
Greg,
Ouch! Losing your collection of records must have made you miserable.
Sorry to hear that. My wife lost ALL her belongs in a fire years before
we met so I know how awful that feels. I keep 5 extinguishers around
the house just in case something happens while I'm home.
Getting back to the stereo stuff: included in my costly mistake was a
Koetsu Rosewood cartridge. I had to borrow a MC amp from the dealer
until I got a plug-in for my Apt pre-amp. You are right; there aren't
an MC inputs on mass produced pre-amps nowadays. After carefully
picking out the turntable, arm, cartridge and going through the ritual
of cleaning each disc before play with the Discwasher, as soon as I
found a decent CD player (Nakamichi OMS-7 IIRC), I realized my mistake
in buying all that "stuff". Just this weekend while cleaning out the
attic, I decided to throw out the Nak (it's been out of commission for
years; it won't recognize a disc). I let it fall from the attic to the
shop floor. No sense in bothering to sell it when it is old, broken,
and DVD players sound better than it anyway, at least one of mine does,
anyway.
dave
Greg wrote:
> Bay Area Dave said:
>
>
>>Stupid me should have avoided the Linn because within a
>>year, CD players got a lot better than the first generation or two and I
>>went CD. No more cleaning LP's every play! And no more flipping them
>>over! I thought I'd died and gone to heaven, listening to Linda
>>Rondstadt's "What's New" album on CD, which is what I used to do my CD
>>comparison testing with.
>
>
> I hear you!
> I made the mistake of buying an expensive turntable and a
> Signet/Shibata moving coil cartridge *just* before the tolerable CD
> players hit the market. It is now sitting in a box, gently wrapped
> for posterity, and nothing on the market even has a preamp that can
> deal with MC cartridges. AND, I lost ALL of my massive record
> collection in a fire. :-|
>
>
> Greg G.
On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 19:39:33 GMT, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
> So know I have an amp that puts
>out tons of juice -- a Mark Levinson. Best piece of ANY kind of
>equipment or toy I've ever owned.
They used to make those right down the street from me. Madrigal Audio
Labs was located in Middletown, CT, seemingly forever.
The parent company, which is now the same as JBL, Lexicon, and several
other brands, closed the Middletown shop last year.
Barry
.. and most of what folks love to listen to over those things was mixed over
some Auratone Cubes about 4" square, or worse yet, Yamaha NS10's. ;>)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/02/04
"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
> Bose must have done a lot of guessing!! I HATE the sound of Bose
> speakers! And JBL's, for that matter. Give me something with a flatter
> response and smooth, extended silky high end. and no thumpy, fakey bass
> either. Ever heard ADS 810's?
Bay Area Dave said:
>Stupid me should have avoided the Linn because within a
>year, CD players got a lot better than the first generation or two and I
>went CD. No more cleaning LP's every play! And no more flipping them
>over! I thought I'd died and gone to heaven, listening to Linda
>Rondstadt's "What's New" album on CD, which is what I used to do my CD
>comparison testing with.
I hear you!
I made the mistake of buying an expensive turntable and a
Signet/Shibata moving coil cartridge *just* before the tolerable CD
players hit the market. It is now sitting in a box, gently wrapped
for posterity, and nothing on the market even has a preamp that can
deal with MC cartridges. AND, I lost ALL of my massive record
collection in a fire. :-|
Greg G.
Swingman said:
>"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
>> Geez, hope I didn't bore the hell out of you!
>
>Not a bit. Bet Greg G is all ears also ... no pun intended! ;>)
Ahhh.... I missed all the fun. Had to finish an ASP program and
associated web page form for an office supply dealer. ;-)
But you did bring back memories of hanging around the REAL stereo
shops, reading about and spending too much money on 'phile equipment.
These days, I spend that money on tools! SWMBO has NO interest in
electronic equipment, and *her* living room TV is a 15 year old 25"
RCA console that I shot the CRT in to make it watchable. I have a 35"
Panasonic I've been saving for her, but she won't hear of it. I even
offered to build a nice corner cabinet. I'll have to go secretly pull
a few parts out before she'll even consider the 35". Go figure...
We watch the occasional DVD in my "AV room" (daylight basement) and
her comments consist of "the special effects are too loud, the bass
scares me, and the Mits BS is too big." :-|
Greg G.
Swingman said:
>In the studio, it is not so much the quality/cost of the monitor as the
>ability of the mix engineer to make the mix "translate" to the outside
>world's speakers over whatever he/she is using ... that comes more with an
>ongoing familiarity with a particular speaker, than with the quality of
>same. It's a real subjective thing, which is why some of us fly around with
>our favorite near field's in a flight case.
Absolutely true, the trained ear can adjust for deficiencies it is
familiar with and can compensate for.
>Audiophiles are some of the most practiced snobs around, worse in some ways
>than wine snobs ... well ... maybe not! ;>)
LMAO! Hey, I (used to) resemble that remark... ;-)
Greg G.
Bay Area Dave said:
>Greg,
>
>Gee, I'm gonna commiserate with you a second time today! About the
>missus not enjoying the hell out of watching DVD's on a big screen, I
>mean! My wife and I LOVE watching movies on our BS; beats the heck out
>of broadcast TV. We watched Seabiscuit a couple nights ago which was a
>real visual treat; that sucker was probably the clearest, sharpest movie
>we've ever seen. Cranked up the stereo to hear and feel the visceral
>impact of those hooves pounding the track!
Well, Dave,
It's not that she doesn't enjoy the commercial free movies and great
picture. She just doesn't have much appreciation for loudish sounds
and such. I asked what she thought of the theater, and her comment
was, "it's too loud there was well". Jeeezz....
(She listens to an old Technics all in one POS - a stone dead ear if
there ever was one.)
I think the subwoofer is what gets to her the most...
The only time in recent memory that didn't elicit complaints about the
sound was while watching the French documentary film, "Miracles of
Migration."
We don't watch network TV much, unless it's recorded so that we can
scan through the commercials - Good God, 10 minutes out of 30!
And, of course, Norm, NOVA and similar, on PBS. We watch more nature,
science and gardening shows than anything else. I watch a fair amount
of SF. Speaking of which, how do you like your new gubner? <g>
Greg G.
skeez,
Being an audiophile (in the past), one of the things I learned quickly
is that speaker technology is damned near a black art. The deepest I
got into speaker construction was to remove my ADS's midrange and
tweeters, shave down their metal mounting flanges a bit to fit, and
re-arrange them in a vertical alignment for MUCH better sound staging
(imaging). There is plenty of science available regarding the enclosure
size (volume) to provide optimum damping for the lower frequencies. (I'm
presuming, perhaps incorrectly, that your speakers are acoustically
suspended. If they have a port, you will have a tough time getting the
port to sound identical if you change the cabinet dimensions) You'd
need to know the requirements of the drivers before you researched what
volume to shoot for, however. If "close enough" is fine for you, than
you could pretty much measure the interior volume of your current
enclosures and match that. Since you want to go narrower and shorter,
you will need to go deeper.
MDF is pretty darn good stuff for building speakers. Sorry it isn't
your fave material! :) Whatever you do, be sure to brace them well,
glued and screwed backs to sides, etc. Look inside your present
speakers for the idea.
If your ears are as good as mine used to be ( I lost the hearing in one
ear in '96 due to an operation), you'll also benefit from mounting the
mid, tweeter, and bass in a vertical line. The sound stage depth and
stability is an order of magnitude better than non-aligned speakers.
Getting their voice coils all arranged at the same distance to the
listener's ear is another trick for cohesive sound, but less likely to
impress any but the most discerning ear. I'd not worry about that.
When you are all done, don't use "speaker wire" to hook them up! Use at
LEAST 14 ga. lamp cord or better. Monster cable works but it's over
priced. I've used Mark Levinson cables with my system, but only because
I talked the salesman into providing them free with an amp purchase.
Truth be told, heavy lamp cord for short runs sounds the same.
dave
[email protected] wrote:
> I read another post by you about speakers. While im not an audiophile
> I do like good sound. I have an older pair of cerwin vega vs120
> speakers. They sound great to my ear BUT there is a problem. my space
> is a lot more limited than it was when i bought them. I've thought
> about building new boxes for them a little smaller. I only need to go
> 1/2 inch narower but i gotta shorten them by 4 inches. Then i would
> use the speakers and crossovers in the new boxes. In your oppinon
> will i lose a lot in quality by doing this? also what material would
> be good? I realy dispise mdf and I realy dont like particle board of
> any type. solid wood would look the best but I'm not sure how this
> would effect sound quality either. I have been to web sites about DIY
> speakers and am sorry to say they speak a language i don't understand.
> I'm just a dumb carpenter with a HS education. :-] We can take it to
> e-mail if need be. any suggestions? Again tech terms mean little to
> this old hillbilly so english please! thanx skeez
Last things first, Greg. Arnie is great! My wife and I were yelling
"Ahhnold!" when he was on. He's the MAN! He's not taking any prisoners
until he gets those legislative do-nothings to start listening to the
people for a change. He's already got them in a conciliatory mood, as
they know if they don't pay attention to him, they will hear from their
constituents. The downside to him being Gov is that there won't be a
T-4 in the works for a while (hope I'm wrong).
I love playing action movies loud too! My wife goes along with that
unless I overdo it (is that possible? :) ). We watch a LOT of comedies
though.
Norm. Yeah. My wife is always watching the Discovery channel when we
aren't watching DVD's or the news. oh, and Dr. Phil. He's had too many
segments on obesity though. I like the "Dr. Phil family" shows to see
how they all interact. It's fascinating. In some ways both the girls
are smarter (although they act immature) than either parent. Reality
shows: we both HATE them. And thank God they got Regis off that insipid
game show.
dave
Greg wrote:
> Bay Area Dave said:
>
>
>>Greg,
>>
>>Gee, I'm gonna commiserate with you a second time today! About the
>>missus not enjoying the hell out of watching DVD's on a big screen, I
>>mean! My wife and I LOVE watching movies on our BS; beats the heck out
>>of broadcast TV. We watched Seabiscuit a couple nights ago which was a
>>real visual treat; that sucker was probably the clearest, sharpest movie
>>we've ever seen. Cranked up the stereo to hear and feel the visceral
>>impact of those hooves pounding the track!
>
>
> Well, Dave,
>
> It's not that she doesn't enjoy the commercial free movies and great
> picture. She just doesn't have much appreciation for loudish sounds
> and such. I asked what she thought of the theater, and her comment
> was, "it's too loud there was well". Jeeezz....
> (She listens to an old Technics all in one POS - a stone dead ear if
> there ever was one.)
>
> I think the subwoofer is what gets to her the most...
> The only time in recent memory that didn't elicit complaints about the
> sound was while watching the French documentary film, "Miracles of
> Migration."
>
> We don't watch network TV much, unless it's recorded so that we can
> scan through the commercials - Good God, 10 minutes out of 30!
>
> And, of course, Norm, NOVA and similar, on PBS. We watch more nature,
> science and gardening shows than anything else. I watch a fair amount
> of SF. Speaking of which, how do you like your new gubner? <g>
>
>
> Greg G.
On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:15:11 GMT, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>Barry, I got mine before it was Madrigal. Word I got was Levinson was
>forced out of his own company and later started ?? making another line
>of audio equipment. Damn, I wish my memory for names was better. He
>built some god awful expensive gear. It's on the tip of my tongue... :)
> Can you help me out??
I remember the story, but don't recall the brand name.
I can see a magazine photo of one of the preamps, too.
Barry
[email protected] said:
>I read another post by you about speakers. While im not an audiophile
>I do like good sound. I have an older pair of cerwin vega vs120
>speakers. They sound great to my ear BUT there is a problem. my space
>is a lot more limited than it was when i bought them. I've thought
>about building new boxes for them a little smaller. I only need to go
>1/2 inch narower but i gotta shorten them by 4 inches. Then i would
>use the speakers and crossovers in the new boxes. In your oppinon
>will i lose a lot in quality by doing this? also what material would
>be good? I realy dispise mdf and I realy dont like particle board of
>any type. solid wood would look the best but I'm not sure how this
>would effect sound quality either. I have been to web sites about DIY
>speakers and am sorry to say they speak a language i don't understand.
>I'm just a dumb carpenter with a HS education. :-] We can take it to
>e-mail if need be. any suggestions? Again tech terms mean little to
>this old hillbilly so english please! thanx skeez
Solid wood colors the sound, due to resonance. Use THICK MDF, but
veneer it or paint it with black lacquer if you don't like its looks.
All joints must be airtight and solid. The dimensions (LxWxD) of
better speakers are chosen to reduce mathematical multiples of
standing waves present in the enclosure - changing these dimensions
can increase the intensity and quantity of 'bumps' in the response
curve due to these standing waves. Non-parallel walls help reduce
internal standing waves. Most of the enclosure's volume is for tuning
the woofer, the midrange and tweeters should be isolated from the main
chamber volume to eliminate blowing the cones out of the midrange and
tweeters, and to eliminate intermodulation distortion.
If you change the volume of the box, it WILL upset the tuning of the
enclosure. Generally, making the box smaller will push the resonance
point up, and you will loose deep bass, and end up with an annoying
bass peak at 80-100Hz. The enclosure and driver match and resulting
resonant frequency determines the beginning of the low end rolloff
point. On a bass reflex, you can make minor adjustments with the port
length and diameter, but without test equipment, you are guessing.
FWIW,
Greg G.
"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
> for almost 2 years. I took home Threshold (the runner up), Bryston,
Small world ... the company that now makes Threshold amps is the same bunch
that makes the Nova Audio speakers I have in the studio... one of the
principals is a good friend and current band mate. I haven't been able to
swing one of the amps yet, but I'm still trying. He just left this morning
for CES in Las Vegas ... hmmmm ... I wonder if they locked the shop ......
> Geez, hope I didn't bore the hell out of you!
Not a bit. Bet Greg G is all ears also ... no pun intended! ;>)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/02/04
Swingman said:
>"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." wrote in message
>
>> "No highs, no lows, must be Bose!" <G>
>
>JBL - Junk But Loud
I can't remember the exact model number, but I used to have a pair of
OLD AR speakers on my repair bench. Damn those things would rock!
They were an irregular shape, and only two way, but they had a deep
bottom end and amazing SPL levels for smallish bookshelf speakers.
Would have made great small studio mix monitors.
Now everything sold caters to the moron crowd, with boomy bass
response at 80Hz and no real bottom end. Ugghhh....
When I was younger, and had the time to spend the time on such things,
I built enclosures in my old Peugeot that went almost flat to 40Hz.
Listening to piano music in traffic was amazing! Now, like Dave, I
have only the POS Ford radios and speakers - I can barely stand to
turn them on...
Greg G.
Judging from the OP's comments, he isn't going to be doing any tweaking
of the x-over. You've reminded me of when I got ADS 320i's for my car
and got to play around with an active/passive crossover for the subs.
They were mounted on the rear package tray of my Delta 88 and the
320i's had the mids on the doors and the tweeters fit into the dash. A
Nakamichi tape deck/radio was the source. Sounded nice to my ears! Now
I have a POS Ford radio. sigh...gave the Delta to my son.
dave
[email protected] wrote:
> Remember too that your crossover can be used to get a flatter response out
> of your speaker, If you feel like tweaking it at all (Only if the crossover
> is not one of those mounted on a circuit board and then covered in epoxy) as
> well as the proper selection of drivers if you decide to use something other
> than your CV drivers. As has been noted before in this thread, MDF is quite
> good for cabinets, but is unfortunately not the best looking, (as SWMBO
> reminds me constantly) and is hell on blades. If you don't like the looks,
> you could also overlay the MDF with solids or veneer. Just my butting in 2
> cents worth.
>
> Paul
>
> "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Bose must have done a lot of guessing!! I HATE the sound of Bose
>>speakers! And JBL's, for that matter. Give me something with a flatter
>>response and smooth, extended silky high end. and no thumpy, fakey bass
>>either. Ever heard ADS 810's?
>>
>>dave
>>
>>Greg wrote:
>>
>>
>>>[email protected] said:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I read another post by you about speakers. While im not an audiophile
>>>>I do like good sound. I have an older pair of cerwin vega vs120
>>>>speakers. They sound great to my ear BUT there is a problem. my space
>>>>is a lot more limited than it was when i bought them. I've thought
>>>>about building new boxes for them a little smaller. I only need to go
>>>>1/2 inch narower but i gotta shorten them by 4 inches. Then i would
>>>>use the speakers and crossovers in the new boxes. In your oppinon
>>>>will i lose a lot in quality by doing this? also what material would
>>>>be good? I realy dispise mdf and I realy dont like particle board of
>>>>any type. solid wood would look the best but I'm not sure how this
>>>>would effect sound quality either. I have been to web sites about DIY
>>>>speakers and am sorry to say they speak a language i don't understand.
>>>>I'm just a dumb carpenter with a HS education. :-] We can take it to
>>>>e-mail if need be. any suggestions? Again tech terms mean little to
>>>>this old hillbilly so english please! thanx skeez
>>>
>>>
>>>Solid wood colors the sound, due to resonance. Use THICK MDF, but
>>>veneer it or paint it with black lacquer if you don't like its looks.
>>>All joints must be airtight and solid. The dimensions (LxWxD) of
>>>better speakers are chosen to reduce mathematical multiples of
>>>standing waves present in the enclosure - changing these dimensions
>>>can increase the intensity and quantity of 'bumps' in the response
>>>curve due to these standing waves. Non-parallel walls help reduce
>>>internal standing waves. Most of the enclosure's volume is for tuning
>>>the woofer, the midrange and tweeters should be isolated from the main
>>>chamber volume to eliminate blowing the cones out of the midrange and
>>>tweeters, and to eliminate intermodulation distortion.
>>>
>>>If you change the volume of the box, it WILL upset the tuning of the
>>>enclosure. Generally, making the box smaller will push the resonance
>>>point up, and you will loose deep bass, and end up with an annoying
>>>bass peak at 80-100Hz. The enclosure and driver match and resulting
>>>resonant frequency determines the beginning of the low end rolloff
>>>point. On a bass reflex, you can make minor adjustments with the port
>>>length and diameter, but without test equipment, you are guessing.
>>>
>>>FWIW,
>>>
>>>Greg G.
>>
>
>
I searched like crazy using Google and a number of key words and can't
find the name of his next company. It'll come to me in the middle of
the night! :)
dave
B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:15:11 GMT, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Barry, I got mine before it was Madrigal. Word I got was Levinson was
>>forced out of his own company and later started ?? making another line
>>of audio equipment. Damn, I wish my memory for names was better. He
>>built some god awful expensive gear. It's on the tip of my tongue... :)
>> Can you help me out??
>
>
> I remember the story, but don't recall the brand name.
>
> I can see a magazine photo of one of the preamps, too.
>
> Barry
Bay Area Dave said:
>Judging from the OP's comments, he isn't going to be doing any tweaking
>of the x-over. <snip>
And unless it's an active crossover with bi-amping, it isn't going to
alter the shifts in bottom end response that the OP was considering.
Passive crossover components add their share of coloration, and on a
high power woofer, are of such mass, that they are best left as simple
as possible - you run the risks of altering dampening factors, severe
phase shifts, and lessening SPL levels. All that is realistically
possible messing with the crossover is altering the crossover point a
few 100Hz up or down. You cannot change the bottom end rolloff point
with a passive crossover of any design - this is a factor of the
enclosure/driver design.
FWIW,
Greg G.
On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:06:26 -0500, Greg G. wrote:
>[email protected] said:
>
>>I read another post by you about speakers. While im not an audiophile
>>I do like good sound. I have an older pair of cerwin vega vs120
>>speakers. They sound great to my ear BUT there is a problem. my space
>>is a lot more limited than it was when i bought them. I've thought
>>about building new boxes for them a little smaller. I only need to go
>>1/2 inch narower but i gotta shorten them by 4 inches. Then i would
>>use the speakers and crossovers in the new boxes. In your oppinon
>>will i lose a lot in quality by doing this? also what material would
>>be good? I realy dispise mdf and I realy dont like particle board of
>>any type. solid wood would look the best but I'm not sure how this
>>would effect sound quality either. I have been to web sites about DIY
>>speakers and am sorry to say they speak a language i don't understand.
>>I'm just a dumb carpenter with a HS education. :-] We can take it to
>>e-mail if need be. any suggestions? Again tech terms mean little to
>>this old hillbilly so english please! thanx skeez
>
>Solid wood colors the sound, due to resonance. Use THICK MDF, but
>veneer it or paint it with black lacquer if you don't like its looks.
>All joints must be airtight and solid. The dimensions (LxWxD) of
>better speakers are chosen to reduce mathematical multiples of
>standing waves present in the enclosure - changing these dimensions
>can increase the intensity and quantity of 'bumps' in the response
>curve due to these standing waves. Non-parallel walls help reduce
>internal standing waves. Most of the enclosure's volume is for tuning
>the woofer, the midrange and tweeters should be isolated from the main
>chamber volume to eliminate blowing the cones out of the midrange and
>tweeters, and to eliminate intermodulation distortion.
>
>If you change the volume of the box, it WILL upset the tuning of the
>enclosure. Generally, making the box smaller will push the resonance
>point up, and you will loose deep bass, and end up with an annoying
>bass peak at 80-100Hz. The enclosure and driver match and resulting
>resonant frequency determines the beginning of the low end rolloff
>point. On a bass reflex, you can make minor adjustments with the port
>length and diameter, but without test equipment, you are guessing.
>
>FWIW,
>
>Greg G.
that makes sense. hell i been guessing all my life!!!! lol. wish i
could decifer all the technical jargon on those sites i visited.
thanks skeez
Jon, if I had to pigeon hole my sonic tastes, I'd have to say "East
Coast" sound. as in KLH, ADS, AR, Boston Acoustics, etc (pleasant,
smooth, balanced sound), as opposed to the hard edged highs and boomy
bass of JBL's (West Coast sound), Klispch (now there's a speaker that
hurts my ears--the old Cornwalls? -- have I got the name wrong, guys?
their horn tweeter was nasty )
dave
Jon Endres, PE wrote:
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." wrote in message
>>
>>
>>>"No highs, no lows, must be Bose!" <G>
>>
>>JBL - Junk But Loud
>
>
> Yeh.
>
> I have always been partial to Boston Acoustics and Cambridge Soundworks
> speakers. Middle-of-the-road, i know, but they've always sounded good to a
> non-audiophile.
>
> Jon E
>
>
On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 22:43:26 GMT, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>skeez,
>
>Being an audiophile (in the past), one of the things I learned quickly
>is that speaker technology is damned near a black art. The deepest I
>got into speaker construction was to remove my ADS's midrange and
>tweeters, shave down their metal mounting flanges a bit to fit, and
>re-arrange them in a vertical alignment for MUCH better sound staging
>(imaging). There is plenty of science available regarding the enclosure
>size (volume) to provide optimum damping for the lower frequencies. (I'm
>presuming, perhaps incorrectly, that your speakers are acoustically
>suspended. If they have a port, you will have a tough time getting the
> port to sound identical if you change the cabinet dimensions) You'd
>need to know the requirements of the drivers before you researched what
>volume to shoot for, however. If "close enough" is fine for you, than
>you could pretty much measure the interior volume of your current
>enclosures and match that. Since you want to go narrower and shorter,
>you will need to go deeper.
>
>MDF is pretty darn good stuff for building speakers. Sorry it isn't
>your fave material! :) Whatever you do, be sure to brace them well,
>glued and screwed backs to sides, etc. Look inside your present
>speakers for the idea.
>
>If your ears are as good as mine used to be ( I lost the hearing in one
>ear in '96 due to an operation), you'll also benefit from mounting the
>mid, tweeter, and bass in a vertical line. The sound stage depth and
>stability is an order of magnitude better than non-aligned speakers.
>Getting their voice coils all arranged at the same distance to the
>listener's ear is another trick for cohesive sound, but less likely to
>impress any but the most discerning ear. I'd not worry about that.
>
>When you are all done, don't use "speaker wire" to hook them up! Use at
>LEAST 14 ga. lamp cord or better. Monster cable works but it's over
>priced. I've used Mark Levinson cables with my system, but only because
>I talked the salesman into providing them free with an amp purchase.
>Truth be told, heavy lamp cord for short runs sounds the same.
>
>dave
>
thanx for the reply dave. my ears aint what they used to be either so
i know what you mean. working in construction noise for the past 30
years takes its toll. i use monster cable now so that isnt a problem.
these are ported speakers with 2 ports each so that adds a whole new
dimention to the problem. i guess i could build some boxes and try
them. if i dont like the sound i can always put em back in the
original ones and use them elswhere. skeez
>[email protected] wrote:
>
>> I read another post by you about speakers. While im not an audiophile
>> I do like good sound. I have an older pair of cerwin vega vs120
>> speakers. They sound great to my ear BUT there is a problem. my space
>> is a lot more limited than it was when i bought them. I've thought
>> about building new boxes for them a little smaller. I only need to go
>> 1/2 inch narower but i gotta shorten them by 4 inches. Then i would
>> use the speakers and crossovers in the new boxes. In your oppinon
>> will i lose a lot in quality by doing this? also what material would
>> be good? I realy dispise mdf and I realy dont like particle board of
>> any type. solid wood would look the best but I'm not sure how this
>> would effect sound quality either. I have been to web sites about DIY
>> speakers and am sorry to say they speak a language i don't understand.
>> I'm just a dumb carpenter with a HS education. :-] We can take it to
>> e-mail if need be. any suggestions? Again tech terms mean little to
>> this old hillbilly so english please! thanx skeez
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "B a r r y B u r k e J r ." wrote in message
>
> > "No highs, no lows, must be Bose!" <G>
>
> JBL - Junk But Loud
Yeh.
I have always been partial to Boston Acoustics and Cambridge Soundworks
speakers. Middle-of-the-road, i know, but they've always sounded good to a
non-audiophile.
Jon E
Been a while since you watched, eh? ... it's more like 15:30 out of 30 now.
Some cable channels are worse, IME.
I swore up and down for years that I would never pay for commercials to be
beamed into my home, using a technology that my tax dollars paid for, by a
government sanctioned monopoly ... those who contribute to the estrogen
heavy atmosphere around here finally got their way a couple of years ago.
However, the ONLY thing I watch is David J. Marks.
BTW, I was always puzzled as to why a lot of folks were always saying how
"stiff" he looked and sounded because he always looked comfortable and
sounded fine to me ... guess I'd never seen any of his earlier shows. They
had one on HGTV a couple of nights ago where he made a curio cabinet out of
cherry and curly maple ... the set lighting was different, his hair looked
like he'd just been sheep sheared, and he was "stiff" as hell ... now I
know.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/02/04
<Greg G.> wrote in message
> We don't watch network TV much, unless it's recorded so that we can
> scan through the commercials - Good God, 10 minutes out of 30!