I will be making a teak chest, so I figured it was time to try polyurethane
glue.
Home Depot had "Ultimate" at half the price of "Gorilla". The Ultimate had
a list of health warnings that made it sound like something I really didn't
want to be using; while Gorilla said very little.
If they are the same thing I might as well save some money; but if Gorilla
is really less toxic it seems like money well spent.
Anyone know about this?
Don't tell me, you needed a good laugh! <g>
Bofus
"Bob S." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Good information being presented on both sides from two knowledgeable
> individuals. Please continue.
> From what I'm reading - you're probably both right but simply discussing
> different applications. Nonetheless, it's a good read so far and we're
> learning.... This thread will get filed away for future reference.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob S.
>
>
Toller wrote:
> Anyone know about this?
Nope, but you ought to be able to get a manager at any store selling either
of those products to go in the back and dig out the MSDS (Material Saftey
Data Sheet) for you. That will tell you which one causes brain cancer and
which one causes heart failure and stuff.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
"Bofus" <[email protected]> wrote in news:1SjGb.153$e24.152
@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> IMHO enough on this already, the information has been disseminated to
One link I haven't seen, though I picked up the thread halfway through:
http://www.newwoodworker.com/gorilaglurevu.html
ken
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:10:51 GMT, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>If they are the same thing I might as well save some money; but if Gorilla
>is really less toxic it seems like money well spent.
I have tested them and gorilla out glues any poly glue on oily woods. plus it
keeps longer. it has no thinner in it like others more solids.
--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
Bob,
Understood, I was trying to point out the fact that it will foam and
expand to 3-4 times its volume. Since we are all trying to get the best fit
possible from our projects you can imagine my surprise (from the stupidity
of not reading the label) when the Gorilla Dung expanded out from every
joint I used it on. As you say using this stuff for gap filling would be
futile if strength is required (but it will fill a gap there is no doubt in
my mind on that). As Lew pointed out West Systems is a better choice for gap
filling, except I would use Flox (Chopped Cotton) as the filler as it will
give the strongest joint in that role. Please accept my apology to the Wreck
Gods for not being clear in my original post. I bow to the superior
intellect(s). ;)
Bofus
"Bob S." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bofus,
>
> Correction to your statement so others will not think Gorilla glue can be
> used for gap filing - it should not be used for that purpose. While it
does
> foam out and give the appearance that it can be used that way, the bubble
> walls (foam) are thin, no density or strength which would be needed in a
gap
> filing glue such as found in an epoxy adhesive.
>
> Bob S.
>
>
> "Bofus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > FYI
> >
> > Gorilla glue has gap filling capability of ~3-4 times its original
> > volume (Grrrrrrr). Of course I learned the hard way! DOH!
> >
> > Bofus
> >
>
>
Bofus,
Correction to your statement so others will not think Gorilla glue can be
used for gap filing - it should not be used for that purpose. While it does
foam out and give the appearance that it can be used that way, the bubble
walls (foam) are thin, no density or strength which would be needed in a gap
filing glue such as found in an epoxy adhesive.
Bob S.
"Bofus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> FYI
>
> Gorilla glue has gap filling capability of ~3-4 times its original
> volume (Grrrrrrr). Of course I learned the hard way! DOH!
>
> Bofus
>
Good information being presented on both sides from two knowledgeable
individuals. Please continue.
From what I'm reading - you're probably both right but simply discussing
different applications. Nonetheless, it's a good read so far and we're
learning.... This thread will get filed away for future reference.
Thanks,
Bob S.
"Bofus" writes:
> Toller,
>
> Micro Balloons will produce a weak bonding material. The finished
> material will dent and chip out easily and may not be what you are looking
> for.
Just curious, what book are you reading? I'd like to see the above in print
somewhere other than on this list.
Trust me, after using about 1,000 lbs of microballoons at about 7 lbs/ft^3
to fair out my boat and glue a few things together, microballoons do not
produce a weak bonding material for typical shear loads that adhesives
normally see.
They do provide excellant gap filling properties.
> Chopped Cotton (Flox) is a much stronger filler and is more chip/dent
> resistant.
If you need fibers, that is why chopped glass is available; however, not
required in the normal adhesive mix or even for fillets.
Chopped cotton will absorb and retain water vapor which is definitely not
swift in an epoxy application.
>Saw dust should perform in the middle of these two materials as
> long as it is the right consistency.
Garbage! ! !
Why waste good epoxy with sawdust?
Talk about a weak joint.
The sawdust offers no contributed strength value, but does add dead weight,
which in a furniture application is of little concern.
Typically, people try to save a little money on microballoons by using
sawdust as a filler.
When you can buy microballoons for about $0.60/lb in 30 lb bags, and epoxy
can cost up to $60/gal, why bother?
Been there, done that.
--
Lew
S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures
Or just get a full HazMat suit and go for broke! <g>
Bofus
"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Toller wrote:
>
> > Anyone know about this?
>
> Nope, but you ought to be able to get a manager at any store selling
either
> of those products to go in the back and dig out the MSDS (Material Saftey
> Data Sheet) for you. That will tell you which one causes brain cancer and
> which one causes heart failure and stuff.
>
> --
> Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
> Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
>
"Toller" writes:
> I will be making a teak chest, so I figured it was time to try
polyurethane
> glue.
>
> Home Depot had "Ultimate" at half the price of "Gorilla". The Ultimate
had
> a list of health warnings that made it sound like something I really
didn't
> want to be using; while Gorilla said very little.
>
> If they are the same thing I might as well save some money; but if Gorilla
> is really less toxic it seems like money well spent.
>
> Anyone know about this?
Gorilla glue is an isocyananate based product.
Don't have a clue about the other stuff.
Isocyananates can be VERY nasty if not handled properly.
My suggestion is that if you are using real teak, use real teak adhesive,
AKA: Epoxy thickened with a few micro-balloons.
West System epoxy, while expensive, offers convenience.
IMHO, Gorilla Glue is very much overpriced and under peckered.
YMMV.
--
Lew
S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures
FYI
Gorilla glue has gap filling capability of ~3-4 times its original
volume (Grrrrrrr). Of course I learned the hard way! DOH!
Bofus
"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I will be making a teak chest, so I figured it was time to try
polyurethane
> glue.
>
> Home Depot had "Ultimate" at half the price of "Gorilla". The Ultimate
had
> a list of health warnings that made it sound like something I really
didn't
> want to be using; while Gorilla said very little.
>
> If they are the same thing I might as well save some money; but if Gorilla
> is really less toxic it seems like money well spent.
>
> Anyone know about this?
>
>
"Lew Hodgett writes"
> Just curious, what book are you reading? I'd like to see the above in
print
> somewhere other than on this list.
Lew, Start here,
http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/productinfo/guide/
note 407 (micro balloons I think), and please look here
http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/productinfo/guide/Filler_select.htm
Notice where micro balloons (407) falls in the strength chart for each type
of bond.
Here is one from a boat fairing search I performed,
http://www.appliedpoleramic.com/epoxy-resin.html#Fillers%20for%20epoxy%20res
in
Pertinent part,
Phenolic Micro Balloons - produce an easier to sand fairing material than
Glass Bubbles or Microsphere, which is a benefit especially with large
fairing applications. "Micro Balloons are unsuitable for use in high
strength bonds".
For more info try this book.
Kitplane Construction
by Ronald Wanttaja
ISBN: 0070681600
Another place to look is in the construction manual of any
"Glass" Aircraft. (Glassair, Lanceair, LongEZ, Berkut to name a few). They
have strict guidelines for use of all materials used in passenger carrying
aircraft as mandated by the FAA.
> Trust me, after using about 1,000 lbs of microballoons at about 7 lbs/ft^3
> to fair out my boat and glue a few things together, microballoons do not
> produce a weak bonding material for typical shear loads that adhesives
> normally see.
Keywords "fair out my boat", to my knowledge this is not a high load
application and strength is not an issue.
> They do provide excellent gap filling properties.
Agreed.
> If you need fibers, that is why chopped glass is available; however, not
> required in the normal adhesive mix or even for fillets.
Chopped Cotton is a lot cheaper than Chopped Glass is it not? And according
to the above application charts is a stronger bond than micro balloons.
> Chopped cotton will absorb and retain water vapor which is definitely not
> swift in an epoxy application.
This is good! I like it! I thought the fibers absorb the resin/epoxy mix to
form a water tight material? If not there are a lot of Aircraft out there
that better not get wet! Besides if this were true then don't you think that
micro balloons would absorb moisture in the same application (like your
boat)?
> Why waste good epoxy with sawdust?
>
> Talk about a weak joint.
Since the above articles denote micro balloons as the weakest bonding filler
why not use sawdust and save money? The strongest joint would be to use no
filler at all, making the wood (or bonded material) the weakest link.
> The sawdust offers no contributed strength value, but does add dead
weight,
> which in a furniture application is of little concern.
Moot point I guess.
> Typically, people try to save a little money on microballoons by using
> sawdust as a filler.
Why not if strength is not an issue and the epoxy is the only thing holding
the joint together?
> When you can buy microballoons for about $0.60/lb in 30 lb bags, and epoxy
> can cost up to $60/gal, why bother?
Lew it's the MONEY! (and a trip to the store)
In closing I'm sorry to rain on your parade, I should have allowed you to
answer the question and in typical Wreck fashion pasted you to the wall by
nit picking your post apart as you attempted to do to me here. Please have a
Merry Christmas.
Bofus
"Bofus" writes:
http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/productinfo/guide/
Pretty much your basic Gougeon Bros catalog.
> note 407 (micro balloons I think), and please look here
http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/productinfo/guide/Filler_select.htm
Again, standard Gougeon stuff.
If you go back and look, think you will find 407 is a very good epoxy filler
for typical adhesive applications.
> Here is one from a boat fairing search I performed,
http://www.appliedpoleramic.com/epoxy-resin.html#Fillers%20for%20epoxy%20res
Pretty much a rehash of standard stuff.
> Phenolic Micro Balloons - produce an easier to sand fairing material than
> Glass Bubbles or Microsphere, which is a benefit especially with large
> fairing applications. "Micro Balloons are unsuitable for use in high
> strength bonds".
Last time I checked, phenolic balloons were about $200/lb, strictly a race
boat item where price is no object.
You have to define "high strength bonds".
Gluing a couple of wood together is a basic shear application, not a "high
strength bonds" tensile application.
> They
> have strict guidelines for use of all materials used in passenger carrying
> aircraft as mandated by the FAA.
That and $5 gets you a cup of coffee in a cheap diner.
> Keywords "fair out my boat", to my knowledge this is not a high load
> application and strength is not an issue.
True, but if it chipped, it would be. After fairing compound cures, about a
week, it is tougher than a bull's tool in fly time.
> Chopped Cotton is a lot cheaper than Chopped Glass is it not? And
according
> to the above application charts is a stronger bond than micro balloons.
You don't use enough of the stuff to get excited about the price.
Think I paid about $60-$70 for a 10 lb box of 1/8" chopped glass over 10
years ago. Still have over 1.\/2 the box left.
Cost wise, it simply isn't a biggie. It gets lost in the wash.
> This is good! I like it! I thought the fibers absorb the resin/epoxy mix
to
> form a water tight material? If not there are a lot of Aircraft out there
> that better not get wet! Besides if this were true then don't you think
that
> micro balloons would absorb moisture in the same application (like your
> boat)?
You missed it.
Cotton absorbs moisture from the air prior to mixing with the epoxy.
Chopped glass doesn't have that problem.
> Since the above articles denote micro balloons as the weakest bonding
filler
> why not use sawdust and save money?
Garbage is garbage even if it is sometime called sawdust.
Again, the money issue is moot.
The cost of fillers as a percentage of catalyzed resin gets lost in the
wash.
Why compromise the epoxy and build an inferior product?
> The strongest joint would be to use no
> filler at all, making the wood (or bonded material) the weakest link.
Not true. The addition of microballoons to the epoxy mixture creates a far
stronger bond than just epoxy can ever provide.
If you doubt this, assemble some test strips with just epoxy and some more
with microballoon filled epoxy.
After they have cured, test the strips to destruction using standard test
procedures.
Think it will enlighten you.
> Why not if strength is not an issue and the epoxy is the only thing
holding
> the joint together?
Incorrect analysis. See above.
> Lew it's the MONEY! (and a trip to the store)
What money? See above.
You have a better chance of smelling an ameba fart from 40 ft in a hurricane
than you do realizing any savings.
> In closing I'm sorry to rain on your parade, I should have allowed you to
> answer the question and in typical Wreck fashion pasted you to the wall by
> nit picking your post apart as you attempted to do to me here.
No rain, just setting the record straight.
> Please have
a
> Merry Christmas.
The same to you and yours.
--
Lew
S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures
Toller,
Micro Balloons will produce a weak bonding material. The finished
material will dent and chip out easily and may not be what you are looking
for. Chopped Cotton (Flox) is a much stronger filler and is more chip/dent
resistant. Saw dust should perform in the middle of these two materials as
long as it is the right consistency. Try to approximate the texture of Flox
in your choice of saw dust (Try the shavings from your table saw). The
procedure is to mix the filler in until you get a sticky paste that is not
too dry. If you get too much filler in the mix add more epoxy to thin it
back down. In composite aircraft assembly Micro Balloons are used as a light
weight filler that will see no load, Flox is used in areas that will see
light too moderate load. I have never seen Saw Dust used in a glass aircraft
for obvious reasons. <g> I hope this helps.
Bofus
"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:z60Gb.28771$N%[email protected]...
> >
> > My suggestion is that if you are using real teak, use real teak
adhesive,
> > AKA: Epoxy thickened with a few micro-balloons.
> >
> > West System epoxy, while expensive, offers convenience.
> >
> Last week I was using epoxy glue and I ran out. I have a gallon of West
> epoxy, so I thickened it with some sawdust from a sander. It worked
pretty
> well, though it was still a bit thin, so I might not have used enough
dust.
> Are micro-balloons better? How?
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> My suggestion is that if you are using real teak, use real teak adhesive,
> AKA: Epoxy thickened with a few micro-balloons.
>
> West System epoxy, while expensive, offers convenience.
>
Last week I was using epoxy glue and I ran out. I have a gallon of West
epoxy, so I thickened it with some sawdust from a sander. It worked pretty
well, though it was still a bit thin, so I might not have used enough dust.
Are micro-balloons better? How?
Thanks.