Getting A Little Neander - Got A Question Or Two...

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote

: Second question - How do you guys that find perverted pleasure in hand
tools
: get your plane blades mounted squarely? I eyeballed mine, but as I plane
my
: board I can feel an edge running in the direction that I'm planing which
: leads me to believe I may not have my blade perfectly squared to the
surface
: I'm planing. I'm guessing one side of my blade is digging a slight amount
: deeper than the other.

Mike has put his finger on a situation revealed if you follow the advice of
the gentlemen woodwork writers or yore, who copy each other in repeating the
advice to use a straight blade and round the corners.

Experienced tradesmen use a slightly cambered iron - please see my web
site - Planing Notes - How To Plane A Square Edge for cambering an iron.

As well, I cannot peel up a curl of wood shaving
: that is the full width of my blade.

At the best, aim for a 3/4width shaving that will narrow as the set is
reduced.

At best I'm getting 3/4in wide curls.
: I'm thinking to loosen up the blade, allow it to drop to a good flat
: surface, and then lock it down. Is this the right way, or is there a
better
: way?

To set a metal plane, please look at Planing Notes - Adjusting a Metal Plane

: This hand plane stuff is all new to me (still haven't figured out how to
: plug it in...) so I've got quite a bit to master. Hell I don't even know
: how good my plane is (Stanley 12-205) - nor do I care - it seems to do a
: good job, and seems like it'll do a really good job if I can fix this
minor
: problem. I'm just worried that I may get to like this hand work and then
: before I know it my plans to purchase a planer might fly right out the
: window.

Best of luck, keep at it!

Jeff G

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
Email address is username@ISP
username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
Website www.amgron.clara.net

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> First question - when you guys that use Scary Sharp get your blades to the
> edge you want, how do you roll off or remove the burr? I hit the back side
> of my plane blade flat, but I'm not so sure I really took the burr off. I'm
> not sure how much it matters - I'm guessing the burr comes off within the
> first couple of swipes anyway.

I usually hit the backside with a few swipes as I progress through
each grit. But, I still feel a bit of a burr at the end of my
sharpening process, and it doesn't seem to make any difference.

> Second question - How do you guys that find perverted pleasure in hand tools
> get your plane blades mounted squarely?

I do it by feel. I put my hand underneath the plane with my index
and middle finger spread so their pads contact either side of the
blade. (Obviously, you want to be very careful and don't drag your
fingers back against the sharp blade.) With practice, you can detect
if the blade is skewed either way. Some folks do the sighting down
the sole technique, but for a smoother, I frankly believe that my
fingers are more sensitive. In fact, I can usually tell when the
blade is set at the proper depth just by feel.

You won't get there overnight, but try it a few times (again,
always use the pads of your fingers and move them away from the sharp
edge, not towards it), see what results you get and re-adjust
accordingly.


Chuck Vance

"Frank McVey" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> [snip of good advice on centering iron]
>
> Setting the distance of the cap iron back from the edge is also very
> important. 1/16" will give a very coarse shaving and a rough finish, good
> for hogging off lots of stock. 1/32" is pretty good for a general purpose
> jack, and 1/64" or even less for a smoother.

That's the conventional wisdom, but I've found that for supertuning
a smoother, you want to actually back off the cap iron up to 1/4" from
the edge. (I learned the technique from Larry Williams of Clark &
Williams wooden planemaking fame, and Jeff G. mentions a similar thing
as well.) To set a smoother up like this, you may need to take a file
*ever-so-gently* to the leading edge of the mouth. Even high-end
planes sometimes have tiny irregularities on the leading edge that
interfere with you closing up the mouth so that light barely passes
through.

Advance the frog forward so that when you set the plane for an
extremely light shaving, you can see just a sliver of light in the
mouth when viewed from above. Obviously, this may also involve
playing around the lateral lever. When the iron is set like this, a
cap iron becomes superfluous and may even interfere with performance
by clogging the mouth. (Jeff talks about this on his page. He
suggests that the leading edge of the mouth/sole functions as a
"chipbreaker" in this case.)

Anyhow, I don't really mean to disagree with you, Frank. I'm sure
you get fine results using the standard setup; I just had to toss out
that other option to muddy the waters a bit. :-)


Chuck Vance

"Frank McVey" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Thanks for that, Chuck. One of these days, I'll give it a try. The main
> thing is to break, or curl, the shaving. I can see how you could achieve
> that by having a very close mouth. After all, I suppose, block planes do it
> all the time!

IIRC, in his sharpening bible, Leonard Lee talks about the type of
shaving produced in a bevel-up plane and the "ramp" of the bevel is
responsible for chipbreaking on those planes. (I could be wrong; it's
been a while since I read his discussions about the different types of
"chips" produced.)

But I have definitely seen the effect on a plane with a tight
mouth. For example, the Clark & Williams wooden planes don't even
have a cap-iron, and they certainly work well.

Anyhow, you might find it fun to play around with some time. The
idea of lightly filing the leading edge of the mouth is probably not a
bad thing for any "super smoother", so it's a short step from there to
backing off the cap iron. Then if you get the nerve, you can play
around with putting a back bevel on the iron to raise the effective
angle. I did that on my L-N #4-1/2 and it works nicely that way.


Chuck Vance

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 21:36:37 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:


>First question - when you guys that use Scary Sharp get your blades to the
>edge you want, how do you roll off or remove the burr? I hit the back side
>of my plane blade flat, but I'm not so sure I really took the burr off. I'm
>not sure how much it matters - I'm guessing the burr comes off within the
>first couple of swipes anyway.


Like Barry I use waterstones up to 8000 grit polishing stone and this
removes any trace of a burr. In your case you should use honing
compound on a flat surface like steel or float glass to get the final
edge. Sharpening up to 2000 grit sandpaper is barely adequate for
final smoothing with a hand plane. You may want to consider
waterstones. A bit messier than SS, but the results are excellent.
They cut faster than sandpaper and only need a little maintenance like
flattening every once in a while. They're more expensive than
sandpaper initially, but in the long run you'll save money becuase the
higher grits stones will last a long long time.

>Second question - How do you guys that find perverted pleasure in hand tools
>get your plane blades mounted squarely? I eyeballed mine, but as I plane my

I turn the plane over and slowly raise, er, lower the blade through
the mouth so that just the leading edge is showing. Sighting down the
length of the plane sole and using light to reflect off the edge you
can easily tell if one edge is lower or higher than the other in
relation to the mouth.

Another trick that was in a magazine is to place two sheets of paper
on the table with some space between them and then place the mouth of
the plane between the sheets. Place your blade in the frog so the edge
touches the table and lock the blade down while it's still on the
table. I've tried this, but I prefer the former approach.

>problem. I'm just worried that I may get to like this hand work and then
>before I know it my plans to purchase a planer might fly right out the
>window.

I think you're already there.... :-)

Check out:

http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0.htm

for THE best source on Stanley plane models.

Go to:

http://www.yesterdaystools.com/tuninga1.htm

to learn how to tune a hand plane.

And finally, go to:

http://www.amgron.clara.net/

I set the cutter by feel depending on the type of cut I want to make. For
hogging off rough wood I set it so I can feel a good point of the bevel. For
final smoothing I can barely feel the cutters edge with my fingers. I drag a
finger across the cutter (ever so easy) until I can just feel it. This
usually produces a "transparent" shaving. I don't worry about getting a full
width cut as long as I don't get too many edges when planing. Mike Dunbar
suggests grinding the bevel with slightly rounded edges to prevent this but
I don't do it that way personally. Trial and error is the best solution to
this and most woodworking tasks.

Jim


"B a r r y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 21:36:37 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> >First question - when you guys that use Scary Sharp get your blades to
the
> >edge you want, how do you roll off or remove the burr? I hit the back
side
> >of my plane blade flat, but I'm not so sure I really took the burr off.
I'm
> >not sure how much it matters - I'm guessing the burr comes off within the
> >first couple of swipes anyway.
>
> I don't remove the burr. I sharpen to 8000x on water stones or 2000
> grit on SS, and the burr kind of disappears on it's own.
>
> I usually set up Scary Sharp 320-400-600-800-1000-1500-2000, for
> flattening backs of new stuff and initial edge forming, and use water
> stones for normal touch ups. Scary Sharp on my jointer bed is VERY
> flat and fast, but takes a bit of space. Waterstones are easier for
> me to whip out to touch up an edge, and to keep 1200, 4000 & 8000
> stones out when doing a lot of handwork.
>
> >Second question - How do you guys that find perverted pleasure in hand
tools
> >get your plane blades mounted squarely? I eyeballed mine, but as I plane
my
>
> I just adjust the blade as I use it, based on the results, using the
> skew lever, or whatever you want to call it. I'm not really an
> official Neander, but I use hand tools often enough to have gotten
> pretty good with them.
>
> It's gotten where I often find certain things are faster and more
> accurate for me when cut slightly oversize on a machine, and hand fit
> with chisels and planes. For example, I mortise with a router table
> and cut the tenons slightly oversize on a table saw. I then hand fit
> the tenons by rounding the ends with a chisel, and trimming things to
> a perfect fit with shoulder and block planes. For me, this usually
> makes for a much better fit in less time than trying to get the
> machines to cut everything exactly perfect.
>
> Barry
>
>

Conan The Librarian wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> Second question - How do you guys that find perverted pleasure in
>> hand tools get your plane blades mounted squarely?
>
> I do it by feel. I put my hand underneath the plane with my index
> and middle finger spread so their pads contact either side of the
> blade. (Obviously, you want to be very careful and don't drag your
> fingers back against the sharp blade.) With practice, you can detect
> if the blade is skewed either way. Some folks do the sighting down
> the sole technique, but for a smoother, I frankly believe that my
> fingers are more sensitive. In fact, I can usually tell when the
> blade is set at the proper depth just by feel.
>
> You won't get there overnight, but try it a few times (again,
> always use the pads of your fingers and move them away from the sharp
> edge, not towards it), see what results you get and re-adjust
> accordingly.
>
>
> Chuck Vance

This is getting scary - this stuff is actually working. Not so sure how
much I like the idea of taking 1/8in or more off a long and fairly wide
board with a hand plane as compared to running it through a power planer,
but I have to admit, I'm having some fun watching the wood take shape with
each stroke. Not to mention - I don't own a power planer at this time so
it's really kinda moot. This is the way I have to do it and it's pretty
cool watching the wood shape up.
--

-Mike-
[email protected]

<Layne> wrote in message

<snip>

> I turn the plane over and slowly raise, er, lower the blade through
> the mouth so that just the leading edge is showing. Sighting down the
> length of the plane sole and using light to reflect off the edge you
> can easily tell if one edge is lower or higher than the other in
> relation to the mouth.

<snip>

Concur that. You soon get the hang of it. If you have problems at first,
you can confirm your sightings by holding the plane upside down and simply
running the lengthwise corner of a small wooden block (say 1" x 1" x 6")
over each extremity of the blade, taking off a small shaving. Keep backing
the blade off, until the cutter has completely withdrawn, trying the block
all the time. If you get to a stage where one side of the blade is still
cutting and the other isn't, make the necessary lateral adjustment.

Setting the distance of the cap iron back from the edge is also very
important. 1/16" will give a very coarse shaving and a rough finish, good
for hogging off lots of stock. 1/32" is pretty good for a general purpose
jack, and 1/64" or even less for a smoother.

Cheers,

Frank



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Thanks for that, Chuck. One of these days, I'll give it a try. The main
thing is to break, or curl, the shaving. I can see how you could achieve
that by having a very close mouth. After all, I suppose, block planes do it
all the time!

Cheers

Frank

"Conan The Librarian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Frank McVey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > [snip of good advice on centering iron]
> >
> > Setting the distance of the cap iron back from the edge is also very
> > important. 1/16" will give a very coarse shaving and a rough finish,
good
> > for hogging off lots of stock. 1/32" is pretty good for a general
purpose
> > jack, and 1/64" or even less for a smoother.
>
> That's the conventional wisdom, but I've found that for supertuning
> a smoother, you want to actually back off the cap iron up to 1/4" from
> the edge. (I learned the technique from Larry Williams of Clark &
> Williams wooden planemaking fame, and Jeff G. mentions a similar thing
> as well.) To set a smoother up like this, you may need to take a file
> *ever-so-gently* to the leading edge of the mouth. Even high-end
> planes sometimes have tiny irregularities on the leading edge that
> interfere with you closing up the mouth so that light barely passes
> through.
>
> Advance the frog forward so that when you set the plane for an
> extremely light shaving, you can see just a sliver of light in the
> mouth when viewed from above. Obviously, this may also involve
> playing around the lateral lever. When the iron is set like this, a
> cap iron becomes superfluous and may even interfere with performance
> by clogging the mouth. (Jeff talks about this on his page. He
> suggests that the leading edge of the mouth/sole functions as a
> "chipbreaker" in this case.)
>
> Anyhow, I don't really mean to disagree with you, Frank. I'm sure
> you get fine results using the standard setup; I just had to toss out
> that other option to muddy the waters a bit. :-)
>
>
> Chuck Vance


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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.665 / Virus Database: 428 - Release Date: 21/04/2004

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 21:36:37 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:


>First question - when you guys that use Scary Sharp get your blades to the
>edge you want, how do you roll off or remove the burr? I hit the back side
>of my plane blade flat, but I'm not so sure I really took the burr off. I'm
>not sure how much it matters - I'm guessing the burr comes off within the
>first couple of swipes anyway.

I don't remove the burr. I sharpen to 8000x on water stones or 2000
grit on SS, and the burr kind of disappears on it's own.

I usually set up Scary Sharp 320-400-600-800-1000-1500-2000, for
flattening backs of new stuff and initial edge forming, and use water
stones for normal touch ups. Scary Sharp on my jointer bed is VERY
flat and fast, but takes a bit of space. Waterstones are easier for
me to whip out to touch up an edge, and to keep 1200, 4000 & 8000
stones out when doing a lot of handwork.

>Second question - How do you guys that find perverted pleasure in hand tools
>get your plane blades mounted squarely? I eyeballed mine, but as I plane my

I just adjust the blade as I use it, based on the results, using the
skew lever, or whatever you want to call it. I'm not really an
official Neander, but I use hand tools often enough to have gotten
pretty good with them.

It's gotten where I often find certain things are faster and more
accurate for me when cut slightly oversize on a machine, and hand fit
with chisels and planes. For example, I mortise with a router table
and cut the tenons slightly oversize on a table saw. I then hand fit
the tenons by rounding the ends with a chisel, and trimming things to
a perfect fit with shoulder and block planes. For me, this usually
makes for a much better fit in less time than trying to get the
machines to cut everything exactly perfect.

Barry

>This is getting scary - this stuff is actually working. Not so sure how
>much I like the idea of taking 1/8in or more off a long and fairly wide
>board with a hand plane as compared to running it through a power planer,
>but I have to admit, I'm having some fun watching the wood take shape with
>each stroke. Not to mention - I don't own a power planer at this time so
>it's really kinda moot. This is the way I have to do it and it's pretty
>cool watching the wood shape up.

Yep. There's a definite satisfaction in seeing the results of *your*
work rather than the machine's work. :-)

Layne