Hi,
I'd like to inquire how you folks out there mark your dovetails. I've
been spending a lot of time trying to handcut dovetails that fit
tightly and consistently. I'm making progress, but I've still got a
ways to go.
I'm having real problems trying to make a precise line that is also
visible. I do pins first, and mark the tails from the pins. The
problem comes in marking the tails from the pins. I use a marking
knife (Veritas), and the lines are very faint and darned hard to see
on the face grain.
Any suggestions on how you folks mark this joint, and how you improve
the visibility of scribed lines would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Nate
p.s. I have also tried using a pencil, but it seems that the lines
aren't really sharp and I'm not exactly sure if I'm hitting the right
line when I saw.
Nate, You are on the right track. Mark with a knife then remark the line
lightly with a pencil. The razor edge will be seen easily.
Dave
"Nate Perkins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to inquire how you folks out there mark your dovetails. I've
> been spending a lot of time trying to handcut dovetails that fit
> tightly and consistently. I'm making progress, but I've still got a
> ways to go.
>
> I'm having real problems trying to make a precise line that is also
> visible. I do pins first, and mark the tails from the pins. The
> problem comes in marking the tails from the pins. I use a marking
> knife (Veritas), and the lines are very faint and darned hard to see
> on the face grain.
>
> Any suggestions on how you folks mark this joint, and how you improve
> the visibility of scribed lines would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Nate
>
> p.s. I have also tried using a pencil, but it seems that the lines
> aren't really sharp and I'm not exactly sure if I'm hitting the right
> line when I saw.
In article <[email protected]>,
Silvan <[email protected]> wrote:
> I saw on the safe side and sneak up on the lines with chisels. It takes a
> lot longer, but it's safer.
I try that, but my dozuki sees the knife line more clearly than I do,
and says, "Yum." How far to the safe side do you start?
--
"Keep your ass behind you."
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Conan the Librarian) wrote:
> and from the first time I picked it up, it just felt natural. The
> grip just naturally puts your wrist and hand in the proper position
> for precise sawing. (My only gripe with dozukis is those stick
> handles.)
Good Japanese woodworking tools are exquisite. I figure there's a very
good reason for that stick handle. I just don't know what it is.
--
"Keep your ass behind you."
Conan the Librarian <[email protected]> wrote:
> > - I guess anything precise will work for marking. I used several
> > knives, but then ended up preferring a sharp scratch awl. The lines
> > were more visible and it seemed easier to get into the gaps for me. I
> > guess this is personal preference.
>
> Yep. My own preference is the Veritas double-bevel knife. I used
> an awl for a while, but it seemed to want to skip in my hands, while
> the knife is easy to keep referenced against the tail board. But
> whatever works best for you.
After trying an awl I tried a very old penknife, was my grandfather's,
might have been his father's. It has a largeish blade, thin at the end
from years of sharpening and is easy to register against the face of the
tails. the size makes it easy to get a good visible line too. Again
though, whatever works for you.
Peter
Nate Perkins wrote:
> "TeamCasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message:
> > Nate, You are on the right track. Mark with a knife then remark the line
> > lightly with a pencil. The razor edge will be seen easily.
> Okay, I'll try that. The cut line is so faint that it's darned hard
> to find it for highlighting.
I think you'll like the cut then mark method. It gives you two lines
and if you pay attention you can cut one of them away, which hwlps
remind you what is waste.
Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
I use a drafting pencil (H or 2H) sharpened to a beveled point and mark with
that. I cut the tails first, since I find it is easier to mark the pins from
the tails. I clamp the pin piece to a vertical edge on my workbench and hold
the tails securely over the pin piece while I mark the pins.
If necessary, I will reinforce the line weight prior to sawing the tails or
pins.
I use strong cross lighting to make sure I can see the lines.
Let's don't get into the tails first - pins first argument. :-) Your not
going to change how you do it and I'm sure not going to change. My mind is
closed on the subject. <G>
"Nate Perkins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to inquire how you folks out there mark your dovetails. I've
> been spending a lot of time trying to handcut dovetails that fit
> tightly and consistently. I'm making progress, but I've still got a
> ways to go.
>
> I'm having real problems trying to make a precise line that is also
> visible. I do pins first, and mark the tails from the pins. The
> problem comes in marking the tails from the pins. I use a marking
> knife (Veritas), and the lines are very faint and darned hard to see
> on the face grain.
>
> Any suggestions on how you folks mark this joint, and how you improve
> the visibility of scribed lines would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Nate
>
> p.s. I have also tried using a pencil, but it seems that the lines
> aren't really sharp and I'm not exactly sure if I'm hitting the right
> line when I saw.
Silvan <[email protected]> wrote:
>I've gotten better results by far using an Xacto razor saw, but it's slow,
>slow going, and the thing doesn't cut deep enough. I suppose I need to get
>some fancy, expensive, thin kerf, lotsa tooth dovetail saw before I can use
>them on a real project.
Get a saw like the "Classic Gent's Saw" sold by Lee Valley ($25 CDN)
and make a proper handle for it. Go to the following url
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~kmuldrew/woodworking/revelations_1.html
and you'll find a template for the handle near the bottom of the page.
It only takes a couple of hours and a scrap of wood.
>Yours might be advice to heed though. I've never felt able to turn out
>consistent enough dovetails to actually use them in a project involving
>wood that cost me money. I can get a few good ones, but never all good
>ones.
Practice cutting right to the line (once you have a decent saw) and
use thin, reasonably hard wood until you get the hang of it (dovetails
in 1/2" stock are much easier than dovetails in 13/16" stock).
Ken Muldrew
[email protected]
(remove all letters after y in the alphabet)
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 09:05:24 -0500, Silvan <[email protected]> wrote:
>I've gotten better results by far using an Xacto razor saw, but it's slow,
>slow going, and the thing doesn't cut deep enough. I suppose I need to get
>some fancy, expensive, thin kerf, lotsa tooth dovetail saw before I can use
>them on a real project.
>
A cheap alternative that I like is a comfortable hacksaw; this may work only in hardwoods,
that's all I've used it on.
Also, without going into the whole tailsfirst/pinsfirst controversy, my experience is that
that pins marked from tails were more conspicuous, and that any error in the tail angle
(not squareness) could be remedied on the pins.
Only one P in my real address/ Un seul P dans ma véritable adresse
Some little tidbits from the Rob Cosman video (one of my wood show
purchases) that I found helpful. Rob planes the endgrain of the wood prior
to marking, leaving a polished surface that shows the lines better.
The other is a sawing technique I like. I have been starting a saw cut using
my fore finger to guide the saw. He uses his fore finger and his thumb to
guide the saw when starting the cut. He marks both ends of the cut line this
way for exact alignment.
Rob uses a ball point pen to mark the tails in the video. I've used a black
pen to mark walnut, and it works.
Two tidbits from my shop . . .
I have the $50 maginfying lamp (Woodcraft) that is on a goose neck mounted
on my bench. I adjust the lamp to direct an oblique light across the marks
or scribe lines. I don't use the magnifying lense for this, just the light.
The lense is for sharpening handsaws.
After the saw cut is started, I make sure that the saw blade is vertical,
and I move my fore finger to be along side of the blade for tactile feed
back of the blade position. I just touch the blade lightly (to monitor, not
guide the blade).
"Conan the Librarian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Lowell Holmes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> So he basically notches the piece on either end of the cut before
> starting to saw? I might have to try that. I currently wrap my
> forefinger over the end of the board and use the side of it to
> reference the saw.
Actually, he does start sawing, no notches. He aligns the saw with a fore
finger or fingernail and he has the thumb or thumbnail marking the near side
of the cut. Using only 20% of the weight of the saw, he starts the cut with
light strokes and then brings the saw down to the surface, guiding with the
thumbnail for accurate alignment.
> > After the saw cut is started, I make sure that the saw blade is
vertical,
> > and I move my fore finger to be along side of the blade for tactile feed
> > back of the blade position. I just touch the blade lightly (to monitor,
not
> > guide the blade).
>
> Sounds like the way I do it. Did you pick that up at Homestead or
> just come into it on your own? I know some folks talk about using
> their fingertip to start the cut, but that just doesn't seem very
> helpful (and is a bit dangerous). Using the side of the finger just
> seems more natural.
It's just something I came to by myself. It takes such little pressure on
the saw to guide it, just the slight touch of a finger nail will do. I tried
using square blocks to make the cut vertical, but that's awkard and really
doesn't work for me. After I learned to trust the saw (to stay in the kerf),
I realized that after I started the cut line was the time to insure the saw
was vertical before the kerf was really initiated. As the kerf is initiated,
the vertical direction of the cut is established.
I hope this not over discussion of the topic. Analyzing the the sequence of
a successful cut helps me with the awarness of what it takes to make a good
cut. I have to stay aware at all times, or my work quality falls apart.
I am sometimes able to make somethig good, but I really have to work hard at
it. The professionals that I have seen appear to throw it up on the bench
and just do it. I know it probably was not always like that for them though
and the techniques they use are done subconsciously.
> Chuck Vance
I'm always interested in buying stuff, but did I miss something here? I
reread Nate's post twice and I don't see any mention of buying anything.
What am I missing?
--
Larry C in Auburn, WA
"Bob S." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Nate,
>
> If money is not the issue - get it and enjoy. Collecting and using the
> toy's is part of the hobby too...
>
> Now if you need to justify it to someone other than yourself - that's a
> whole 'nuther story and trust me, we can help you justify the hell out it
if
> needed...;)
>
> Bob S.
>
> "Nate Perkins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'd like to inquire how you folks out there mark your dovetails. I've
> > been spending a lot of time trying to handcut dovetails that fit
> > tightly and consistently. I'm making progress, but I've still got a
> > ways to go.
> >
> > I'm having real problems trying to make a precise line that is also
> > visible. I do pins first, and mark the tails from the pins. The
> > problem comes in marking the tails from the pins. I use a marking
> > knife (Veritas), and the lines are very faint and darned hard to see
> > on the face grain.
> >
> > Any suggestions on how you folks mark this joint, and how you improve
> > the visibility of scribed lines would be appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Nate
> >
> > p.s. I have also tried using a pencil, but it seems that the lines
> > aren't really sharp and I'm not exactly sure if I'm hitting the right
> > line when I saw.
>
>
Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I saw on the safe side and sneak up on the lines with chisels. It takes a
> lot longer, but it's safer.
I used to do it that way, but it took forever and I was never happy
with the results. Finally, I just heeded the words of Klausz (or was
it Kirby?) who said that you should always aim for a good fit from the
saw. The more you pare and fit, the more chances there are for
mistakes. And if you can't see the line well enough to saw, I
wouldn't be too confident in your chances with a chisel either.
If you think about it, which tool is more likely to give you a
straight line, a saw or a chisel?
Anyhow, the way I do it now is to scribe my pins from the tails by
clamping the boards in place with Pony miter clamps and using my
marking knife. I then extend the lines down the board faces with a
pencil (drawing the line just on the waste side of the mark, so that I
aim to remove the pencil mark when sawing).
If the wood is dark, I use a white pencil with soft lead and rub it
across the endgrain mark. Then I wipe off the surface, and that
leaves a bit of color in the scribed line. Again, I mark the board
faces with pencil, and I don't have to worry about it being a tiny
line (as long as I get it started just to the waste side of the
scribed mark), because I am not splitting the line, but removing it
with my saw.
FWIW, ever since I started aiming for a fit from the saw, my
dovetails have been *much* better than when I purposely cut shy of the
line and pared.
Chuck Vance
"Frank McVey" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> For sure, Chuck. At one time it was a point of honour among craftsmen to
> have your dovetails fit straight from the saw, and it's not *that* hard.
I *aim* to have them fit straight from the saw, but ... er ...
let's just say that sometimes my aim is a bit off. :-) Still, by
trying to split the line on the waste side, I might get half of them
to fit without paring (if I'm "in practice").
> And, like you, I mark the pins from the tails. I know it's a controversial
> point, and that vice-versa will work just as well if you're doing a one-off,
> but if you're doing a run of 3-4 drawers, then, to me at least, it's a lot
> faster to gang all the sides together with clamps and saw all the tails as
> one. Then you split the gang and mark up the pins on to the fronts/backs
> individually for the best fit..
You know I always seem to think of that *after* I've already
started sawing the tail boards individually. :-) Thanks for the
reminder.
Chuck Vance
Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >> If you think about it, which tool is more likely to give you a
> >> straight line, a saw or a chisel?
>
> In *my* hands? Definitely a chisel. :)
Given my results with chisels, I'm sorry to hear that. :-)
> My saw cuts never come out quite
> right, and they're always too something. Too shallow, too deep, too steep,
> too crooked, too rough. Especially too rough. My saw leaves a really ugly
> surface behind that I *have* to clean up.
Sounds like a problem with the saw itself.
> I've gotten better results by far using an Xacto razor saw, but it's slow,
> slow going, and the thing doesn't cut deep enough. I suppose I need to get
> some fancy, expensive, thin kerf, lotsa tooth dovetail saw before I can use
> them on a real project.
Not really, but if you have the cash, it won't hurt you. I cut
dovetails with a $25 mini-dozuki "Z-saw" before I upgraded to the IT
saw, and it did just fine. In fact, I still sometimes use it for
cutting in softwoods.
What I gained with the fancier saw was efficiency and ergonomics.
It's more comfortable to use, and it just cuts straight, *period*.
Wherever you start the cut, the saw will go straight, and quickly. My
dozuki, on the other hand, can wobble or drift if I'm not mindful of
my technique.
FWIW, in my search for the "perfect" dt saw, I tried a few
different Zona model-makers saws (similar to the Exacto). They left
lovely smooth surfaces, but they were so slow-cutting that there was
just too much opportunity for the cuts to wander. I think I would up
swapping them to Larry "C-less". He doesn't actually do any
woodworking, so I don't know if they would have worked better for him.
> Yours might be advice to heed though. I've never felt able to turn out
> consistent enough dovetails to actually use them in a project involving
> wood that cost me money. I can get a few good ones, but never all good
> ones.
I'm sure others have mentioned this to you before, but probably the
best way for you to improve to the point where you can trust yourself,
is to take a scrap board (hardwood is probably preferable, assuming
you will be making projects out of hardwood), lay out a series of
tails and cut them. Then cut the end of the board off and repeat. Do
the same thing for some pins.
You can compensate *somewhat* for a mediocre saw with that sort of
practice, as you learn to control it. The when/if you do get a good
saw, you'll find yourself breezing through the things.
Chuck Vance
[email protected] (Nate Perkins) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Hi Chuck,
>
> I started this thread a while back, so I figured I'd post a followup.
> I'm a rank amateur trying to come up the curve. I've cut about 100 or
> so dovetails now (I figure at least 25 sets), and here's a few
> beginner observations. I don't offer these with any authority at all
> (the experienced guys here will run circles around me) ... but I offer
> them in hopes that other newcomers might benefit.
>
> - The biggest thing for me was learning to cut right at the line. For
> me, the difference in making dovetails has been learning how to saw
> right. No downward pressure at all on the saw, and keeping the arm
> straight and steady, cutting with just the weight of the saw. I found
> that if I hit the lines right on, it fits without chiseling. For a
> while, I was trying to saw wide and then trim with a chisel, but I
> never got consistent fits that way.
All good advice, especially the idea of aiming for a fit directly
from the saw. I will add one or two things: When sawing the pins
(assuming you are marking them from the tails), aim for your sawcut to
"split the line on the waste side". What this means to me is position
the saw so that it just touches the scribe line but the kerf falls in
the waste. Also, it helps if your first sawcut is used to simply
establish a kerf across the end of the board. After the kerf is made,
then you can concentrate on keeping the saw vertical as you cut
downward.
As for your comment on sawing technique -- one thing that helps to
keep the saw straight and steady is getting into a stance that is
comfortable. I'm a lefty, and I stand with my right foot slightly
back, and my body positioned so that my shoulder is directly aligned
with the joint. My arm is slightly away from my body so that I am not
"crowding myself", but my elbow, shoulder and wrist are all in line.
> - The second biggest thing was to mark the second joint (tails for me)
> really precisely.
>
> - I guess anything precise will work for marking. I used several
> knives, but then ended up preferring a sharp scratch awl. The lines
> were more visible and it seemed easier to get into the gaps for me. I
> guess this is personal preference.
Yep. My own preference is the Veritas double-bevel knife. I used
an awl for a while, but it seemed to want to skip in my hands, while
the knife is easy to keep referenced against the tail board. But
whatever works best for you.
A big part of dovetails is simply getting accustomed to the tools
you have, and being comfortable with them. It's important to be
precise, but even moreso, IMHO, you have to be able to repeat your
level of precision on a consistent basis.
> - I have tried lots of saws, including middling Japanese dozukis as
> well as western saws. All work, but my favorite is an open-handled
> brass backed dovetail saw I got off of Ebay, set with little kerf, and
> sharpened according to instructions I pulled off of the net. I like
> the western saw because it has just enough kerf that you can slightly
> adjust the angle as you start the cut. I suspect that my saw is not
> sharpened expertly, but it cuts darned good. Even a cheapie gents
> dovetail saw I pressed out the kerf on and resharpened will cut pretty
> straight and smooth. I think any saw can work well, depending on what
> you get used to.
No argument with that idea. Heck, some folks cut dt's with
hacksaws. :-) My first experience with a good open-handled Western
backsaw was a bit of a revelation. It cost me all of $15 (sharpened),
and from the first time I picked it up, it just felt natural. The
grip just naturally puts your wrist and hand in the proper position
for precise sawing. (My only gripe with dozukis is those stick
handles.)
Most new saws have way too much set, and that's likely to cause
problems as the saw can wobble within the wider kerf. With a
properly-set saw, it will be darned hard to adjust the angle of your
cut once it's established, and that's the way it should be.
> Again, I don't pretend to be expert at all on this. Just offering the
> observations of a novice, in the hopes that it might benefit other
> novices.
Good job. You've picked up a lot of the important techniques for
cutting good dt's. Once a beginner has learned all of these things,
the major thing left to do is simply practice until it becomes
second-nature. At that point you can achieve the repeatability that
makes it all come together.
One final thing: If it's been a while since you've cut some dt's,
it's good idea to take a scrap board out and draw a few lines and make
some practice cuts before you do them for real on expensive wood.
Just like warming up for sports, it helps to get the proper muscles
loose and get yourself focused.
Chuck Vance
"Lowell Holmes" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Some little tidbits from the Rob Cosman video (one of my wood show
> purchases) that I found helpful. Rob planes the endgrain of the wood prior
> to marking, leaving a polished surface that shows the lines better.
I never thought to mention that. I usually plane the endgrain as
part of doing the final squaring of a piece. I do it partially
because I usually need to touch things up a bit for squareness after
sawing, and because it just looks better to have planed endgrain when
you'll be seeing it like in dovetails. And come to think of it, it
does show scribe marks better.
> The other is a sawing technique I like. I have been starting a saw cut using
> my fore finger to guide the saw. He uses his fore finger and his thumb to
> guide the saw when starting the cut. He marks both ends of the cut line this
> way for exact alignment.
So he basically notches the piece on either end of the cut before
starting to saw? I might have to try that. I currently wrap my
forefinger over the end of the board and use the side of it to
reference the saw.
> Rob uses a ball point pen to mark the tails in the video. I've used a black
> pen to mark walnut, and it works.
Gosh, I don't know if I can remember all the various ways I've
tried to mark dovetails. Various colored pens and pencils, from black
to white, to almost flourescent colors. Once on cocobolo I even made
up a paper template that I taped across the end of the board. It
worked, sort of. :-}
> Two tidbits from my shop . . .
>
> I have the $50 maginfying lamp (Woodcraft) that is on a goose neck mounted
> on my bench. I adjust the lamp to direct an oblique light across the marks
> or scribe lines. I don't use the magnifying lense for this, just the light.
> The lense is for sharpening handsaws.
I think the importance of oblique lighting when cutting dt's is
sometimes overlooked. My bench is set up near the entrance to the
(south-facing) garage/shop door, and I do all my dt sawing with the
work clamped in my leg vise and my back to the entrance. That way I
always have the natural light source coming from an angle (except at
midday). When needed, I simply turn on my bench-lamp (nothing more
than an adjustable lamp mounted in a wood block with a dowel that fits
into the dogholes on my bench) and position it for added light.
> After the saw cut is started, I make sure that the saw blade is vertical,
> and I move my fore finger to be along side of the blade for tactile feed
> back of the blade position. I just touch the blade lightly (to monitor, not
> guide the blade).
Sounds like the way I do it. Did you pick that up at Homestead or
just come into it on your own? I know some folks talk about using
their fingertip to start the cut, but that just doesn't seem very
helpful (and is a bit dangerous). Using the side of the finger just
seems more natural.
Chuck Vance
[email protected] (Peter Ashby) wrote in message news:<1g8y5e0.1ebgeotplw487N%[email protected]>...
> After trying an awl I tried a very old penknife, was my grandfather's,
> might have been his father's. It has a largeish blade, thin at the end
> from years of sharpening and is easy to register against the face of the
> tails. the size makes it easy to get a good visible line too. Again
> though, whatever works for you.
Yeah, I used quite a few different marking tools before settling on
the Veritas double-bevel knife. I started with an Exacto type, but
that sort of knife edge didn't seem as precise. I tried an awl, but
it tended to skip at just the wrong time. Then I bought the Crown set
of left and right knives, and they're OK, but it's a pain to have to
switch, and that's one more thing to lose in the mess of tools on the
bench. :-}
From there it was on to a Hock shiv mounted in a homemade cocobolo
handle. Great knife, but a bit big for marking some of the smaller
pins I like to cut. I now use it for hand-to-hand combat and skinning
large game animals. ;-) The Veritas just seems like the best
compromise for the way I work. It can be handled like a pencil, which
gives you great control, and the blade is narrow with a flat back and
double-bevel which lets you simply reverse it to get it into tight
spaces.
Chuck Vance
"Lowell Holmes" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Actually, he does start sawing, no notches. He aligns the saw with a fore
> finger or fingernail and he has the thumb or thumbnail marking the near side
> of the cut. Using only 20% of the weight of the saw, he starts the cut with
> light strokes and then brings the saw down to the surface, guiding with the
> thumbnail for accurate alignment.
I'll have to give it a try that way and compare it to my technique.
> It's just something I came to by myself. It takes such little pressure on
> the saw to guide it, just the slight touch of a finger nail will do. I tried
> using square blocks to make the cut vertical, but that's awkard and really
> doesn't work for me.
Same here. I even went to the trouble of cutting various
guide-block "training wheels", but found that I was better-served by
just training myself to do it correctly without the extra stuff.
> After I learned to trust the saw (to stay in the kerf),
> I realized that after I started the cut line was the time to insure the saw
> was vertical before the kerf was really initiated. As the kerf is initiated,
> the vertical direction of the cut is established.
It sounds like that's similar to my approach. I make the initial
kerf without being concerned about verticality; it's about
establishing the horizontal angle. Once I have just severed the wood
fibers, I can feel that aspect of the cut even without looking. From
there it's about getting and keeping verticality.
> I hope this not over discussion of the topic. Analyzing the the sequence of
> a successful cut helps me with the awarness of what it takes to make a good
> cut. I have to stay aware at all times, or my work quality falls apart.
> I am sometimes able to make somethig good, but I really have to work hard at
> it. The professionals that I have seen appear to throw it up on the bench
> and just do it. I know it probably was not always like that for them though
> and the techniques they use are done subconsciously.
We're on the same page. I don't know if this is useful for others,
but it helps me to analyze what I do, and see if there are better
ways. Also, I'm no expert, but I do have certain techniques that I no
longer do totally consciously. The problem is, if it's been a long
time since I've done something like cutting dt's, I need to approach
it from a step-by-step technique. Like you say, if I just go in and
start sawing away, I'm likely to butcher things. So this thread is
sort of a reality check for me, and a reminder.
And this sure beats talking about trolls and Dubya, no? :-)
Chuck Vance
"TeamCasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message:
> Nate, You are on the right track. Mark with a knife then remark the line
> lightly with a pencil. The razor edge will be seen easily.
Okay, I'll try that. The cut line is so faint that it's darned hard
to find it for highlighting.
I was thinking that maybe my knife is too sharp, and that a scratch
awl might be better. The Veritas knife is pretty wide and there's not
a lot of room for it to fit between the pins.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Bridger <[email protected]> wrote in message
> if the wood is light colored, make your mark with the knife, then
> follow the scribe with a pencil. rub the pencil off of the surface,
> and you will have a dark knife mark. if the wood is dark colored, use
> white chalk to highlight your scribe.
> Bridger
Hi,
Thanks to you and all the others for the suggestions.
I think one reason why it's a bit tricky is that I'm doing this
project in mahogany (African, the cheap variety). The grain structure
on the face makes the mark especially hard to see.
In the past I've made some other pieces out of walnut or cherry, and
the lines did seem to be a little more visible in those woods.
I'll try the pencil and the chalk method. I've been trying the
crosslighting (with a little portable 100W lamp), and it sure does
help.
To tell you the truth, it's only recently that I saw well enough that
the precision of the line is the limiter :-P I'm sure I've made
50-100 dovetails (among scrap and small projects), and I'm still
learning the little things I'm doing wrong.
Cheers,
Nate
[email protected] (Conan the Librarian) wrote:
> I'm sure others have mentioned this to you before, but probably the
> best way for you to improve to the point where you can trust yourself,
> is to take a scrap board (hardwood is probably preferable, assuming
> you will be making projects out of hardwood), lay out a series of
> tails and cut them. Then cut the end of the board off and repeat. Do
> the same thing for some pins.
>
> You can compensate *somewhat* for a mediocre saw with that sort of
> practice, as you learn to control it. The when/if you do get a good
> saw, you'll find yourself breezing through the things.
Hi Chuck,
I started this thread a while back, so I figured I'd post a followup.
I'm a rank amateur trying to come up the curve. I've cut about 100 or
so dovetails now (I figure at least 25 sets), and here's a few
beginner observations. I don't offer these with any authority at all
(the experienced guys here will run circles around me) ... but I offer
them in hopes that other newcomers might benefit.
- The biggest thing for me was learning to cut right at the line. For
me, the difference in making dovetails has been learning how to saw
right. No downward pressure at all on the saw, and keeping the arm
straight and steady, cutting with just the weight of the saw. I found
that if I hit the lines right on, it fits without chiseling. For a
while, I was trying to saw wide and then trim with a chisel, but I
never got consistent fits that way.
- The second biggest thing was to mark the second joint (tails for me)
really precisely.
- I guess anything precise will work for marking. I used several
knives, but then ended up preferring a sharp scratch awl. The lines
were more visible and it seemed easier to get into the gaps for me. I
guess this is personal preference.
- I have tried lots of saws, including middling Japanese dozukis as
well as western saws. All work, but my favorite is an open-handled
brass backed dovetail saw I got off of Ebay, set with little kerf, and
sharpened according to instructions I pulled off of the net. I like
the western saw because it has just enough kerf that you can slightly
adjust the angle as you start the cut. I suspect that my saw is not
sharpened expertly, but it cuts darned good. Even a cheapie gents
dovetail saw I pressed out the kerf on and resharpened will cut pretty
straight and smooth. I think any saw can work well, depending on what
you get used to.
Again, I don't pretend to be expert at all on this. Just offering the
observations of a novice, in the hopes that it might benefit other
novices.
Cheers, Nate
Nate,
If money is not the issue - get it and enjoy. Collecting and using the
toy's is part of the hobby too...
Now if you need to justify it to someone other than yourself - that's a
whole 'nuther story and trust me, we can help you justify the hell out it if
needed...;)
Bob S.
"Nate Perkins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to inquire how you folks out there mark your dovetails. I've
> been spending a lot of time trying to handcut dovetails that fit
> tightly and consistently. I'm making progress, but I've still got a
> ways to go.
>
> I'm having real problems trying to make a precise line that is also
> visible. I do pins first, and mark the tails from the pins. The
> problem comes in marking the tails from the pins. I use a marking
> knife (Veritas), and the lines are very faint and darned hard to see
> on the face grain.
>
> Any suggestions on how you folks mark this joint, and how you improve
> the visibility of scribed lines would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Nate
>
> p.s. I have also tried using a pencil, but it seems that the lines
> aren't really sharp and I'm not exactly sure if I'm hitting the right
> line when I saw.
Hi, Nate.
If it's a dark wood, try lightly rubbing chalk or talc into the cut lines,
otherwise use a hard pencil to give you a fine line.
Cheers
Frank
"Nate Perkins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to inquire how you folks out there mark your dovetails. I've
> been spending a lot of time trying to handcut dovetails that fit
> tightly and consistently. I'm making progress, but I've still got a
> ways to go.
>
> I'm having real problems trying to make a precise line that is also
> visible. I do pins first, and mark the tails from the pins. The
> problem comes in marking the tails from the pins. I use a marking
> knife (Veritas), and the lines are very faint and darned hard to see
> on the face grain.
>
> Any suggestions on how you folks mark this joint, and how you improve
> the visibility of scribed lines would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Nate
>
> p.s. I have also tried using a pencil, but it seems that the lines
> aren't really sharp and I'm not exactly sure if I'm hitting the right
> line when I saw.
>> > I saw on the safe side and sneak up on the lines with chisels. It
>> > takes
> a
>> > lot longer, but it's safer.
>> I used to do it that way, but it took forever and I was never happy
>> with the results. Finally, I just heeded the words of Klausz (or was
>> If you think about it, which tool is more likely to give you a
>> straight line, a saw or a chisel?
In *my* hands? Definitely a chisel. :) My saw cuts never come out quite
right, and they're always too something. Too shallow, too deep, too steep,
too crooked, too rough. Especially too rough. My saw leaves a really ugly
surface behind that I *have* to clean up.
I've gotten better results by far using an Xacto razor saw, but it's slow,
slow going, and the thing doesn't cut deep enough. I suppose I need to get
some fancy, expensive, thin kerf, lotsa tooth dovetail saw before I can use
them on a real project.
Yours might be advice to heed though. I've never felt able to turn out
consistent enough dovetails to actually use them in a project involving
wood that cost me money. I can get a few good ones, but never all good
ones.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On 31 Jan 2004 22:30:26 -0800, [email protected] (Nate Perkins)
wrote:
>The problem comes in marking the tails from the pins. I use a marking
>knife (Veritas),
Try using an awl. A knife is OK for marking pins from tails, but it's
hard to get into the corner for tails from pins.
For sure, Chuck. At one time it was a point of honour among craftsmen to
have your dovetails fit straight from the saw, and it's not *that* hard.
And, like you, I mark the pins from the tails. I know it's a controversial
point, and that vice-versa will work just as well if you're doing a one-off,
but if you're doing a run of 3-4 drawers, then, to me at least, it's a lot
faster to gang all the sides together with clamps and saw all the tails as
one. Then you split the gang and mark up the pins on to the fronts/backs
individually for the best fit..
Cheers
Frank
"Conan the Librarian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > I saw on the safe side and sneak up on the lines with chisels. It takes
a
> > lot longer, but it's safer.
>
> I used to do it that way, but it took forever and I was never happy
> with the results. Finally, I just heeded the words of Klausz (or was
> it Kirby?) who said that you should always aim for a good fit from the
> saw. The more you pare and fit, the more chances there are for
> mistakes. And if you can't see the line well enough to saw, I
> wouldn't be too confident in your chances with a chisel either.
>
> If you think about it, which tool is more likely to give you a
> straight line, a saw or a chisel?
>
> Anyhow, the way I do it now is to scribe my pins from the tails by
> clamping the boards in place with Pony miter clamps and using my
> marking knife. I then extend the lines down the board faces with a
> pencil (drawing the line just on the waste side of the mark, so that I
> aim to remove the pencil mark when sawing).
>
> If the wood is dark, I use a white pencil with soft lead and rub it
> across the endgrain mark. Then I wipe off the surface, and that
> leaves a bit of color in the scribed line. Again, I mark the board
> faces with pencil, and I don't have to worry about it being a tiny
> line (as long as I get it started just to the waste side of the
> scribed mark), because I am not splitting the line, but removing it
> with my saw.
>
> FWIW, ever since I started aiming for a fit from the saw, my
> dovetails have been *much* better than when I purposely cut shy of the
> line and pared.
>
>
> Chuck Vance
On 31 Jan 2004 22:30:26 -0800, [email protected] (Nate Perkins)
wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I'd like to inquire how you folks out there mark your dovetails. I've
>been spending a lot of time trying to handcut dovetails that fit
>tightly and consistently. I'm making progress, but I've still got a
>ways to go.
>
>I'm having real problems trying to make a precise line that is also
>visible. I do pins first, and mark the tails from the pins. The
>problem comes in marking the tails from the pins. I use a marking
>knife (Veritas), and the lines are very faint and darned hard to see
>on the face grain.
>
>Any suggestions on how you folks mark this joint, and how you improve
>the visibility of scribed lines would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>Nate
>
>p.s. I have also tried using a pencil, but it seems that the lines
>aren't really sharp and I'm not exactly sure if I'm hitting the right
>line when I saw.
if the wood is light colored, make your mark with the knife, then
follow the scribe with a pencil. rub the pencil off of the surface,
and you will have a dark knife mark. if the wood is dark colored, use
white chalk to highlight your scribe.
Bridger
Frank McVey wrote:
> If it's a dark wood, try lightly rubbing chalk or talc into the cut lines,
> otherwise use a hard pencil to give you a fine line.
White colored pencil...
>> p.s. I have also tried using a pencil, but it seems that the lines
>> aren't really sharp and I'm not exactly sure if I'm hitting the right
>> line when I saw.
I saw on the safe side and sneak up on the lines with chisels. It takes a
lot longer, but it's safer.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Having trouble marking dovetails and your doing/cutting pins first.
Cut tails first. Reason; when you mark and cut the pins no matter what
angle you actually cut each tail (by hand there are going to be minor
variations) the pin is still cut absolutely straight/vertical. Marking
pins from the tails is totally unobstructed. Finally; marking in the
end-grain is far easier to get a solid visible mark and rarely does end
grain cause your knife to wander. IMHO ... cut tails then pins is the most
repeatable accruate way.
your supposed to do tails first from everything that I have read. Try that
might help. Am almost ready to start the dovetail journey myself.
--
http://users.adelphia.net/~kyhighland
"Nate Perkins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to inquire how you folks out there mark your dovetails. I've
> been spending a lot of time trying to handcut dovetails that fit
> tightly and consistently. I'm making progress, but I've still got a
> ways to go.
>
> I'm having real problems trying to make a precise line that is also
> visible. I do pins first, and mark the tails from the pins. The
> problem comes in marking the tails from the pins. I use a marking
> knife (Veritas), and the lines are very faint and darned hard to see
> on the face grain.
>
> Any suggestions on how you folks mark this joint, and how you improve
> the visibility of scribed lines would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Nate
>
> p.s. I have also tried using a pencil, but it seems that the lines
> aren't really sharp and I'm not exactly sure if I'm hitting the right
> line when I saw.