Rush and Relapse.

Mark & Juanita writes:
>beset by the problems the Nixon adminstration was experiencing in
>1972 and 1973. If Bush Sr had tried pulling strings to get his son off,
>don't you have just a little suspicion that the mainstream press would
>have added that to the allegations already surrounding the
>administration? Given the all-out witch hunts in progress at the time,
>somebody, somewhere would have "leaked" that to the press as well.

Might have happened. Might not, too. I think that unfortunately there's a lot
of daily string-pulling we don't hear about in what are considered diddly
little deals---like the earlier poster's point that Shrub was over the hill as
the war was winding down, so it doesn't matter if he didn't show up for duty.
And there's also the possibility that he got slack just because of who daddy
was, not because of what daddy did.

Nobody manages to refute the facts that at that time the National Guard, air or
not, was a hiding place for draft avoiders and that he was over the hill.

Charlie Self
"Brevity is the soul of lingerie." Dorothy Parker
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html

On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 11:42:21 +0000, Charlie Self wrote:


> Nobody manages to refute the facts that at that time the National Guard, air or
> not, was a hiding place for draft avoiders and that he was over the hill.

George Magazine did an article refuting the over the hill allegation.

-Doug

Doug Winterburn writes:

>
>> Nobody manages to refute the facts that at that time the National Guard,
>air or
>> not, was a hiding place for draft avoiders and that he was over the hill.
>
>George Magazine did an article refuting the over the hill allegation.

Really. I've read take-outs from unit records that enforce it.

Charlie Self
"Brevity is the soul of lingerie." Dorothy Parker
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html

What about Al Gore serving 3 months in Nam as a base newspaper photographer
untill his senator daddy got him an early out??

"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 18:34:09 +0000, Charlie Self wrote:
>
>
> > Really. I've read take-outs from unit records that enforce it.
>
> They referenced military records that refute it.
>
> -Doug

Dave writes:

>What about Al Gore serving 3 months in Nam as a base newspaper photographer
>untill his senator daddy got him an early out??

From what I heard, it was 3 months as a newspaper writer, but, then, he DID get
there, even if he didn't get into any action. If his old man was so determined
to use influence, he'd never have left the States, at least not in that
direction.


Charlie Self
"Brevity is the soul of lingerie." Dorothy Parker
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html

Right. Being in the middle of war is always safer than flying around
the Texas countryside. Hey, maybe that's why he dissappeared for
those 14 months - he decided it wasn't safe to fly.

Renata

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:34:40 GMT, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] says...
>> Dave writes:
>>
>> >What about Al Gore serving 3 months in Nam as a base newspaper photographer
>> >untill his senator daddy got him an early out??
>>
>> From what I heard, it was 3 months as a newspaper writer, but, then, he DID get
>> there, even if he didn't get into any action. If his old man was so determined
>> to use influence, he'd never have left the States, at least not in that
>> direction.
>>
>
> ... and he was probably safer there as a newspaper writer than young
>Bush was in the States actually flying jets, especially jets designed
>and built in the mid to late 60's. For someone to want to dodge the
>draft for safety, becoming a fighter pilot is sort of self-defeating.
>US military jets, in spite of tremendous efforts to make them as safe as
>possible, are always pushing the edge of technological feasibility to
>eke out perfomance margin. As such, there is risk associated with jet
>flight.
>
>>
>> Charlie Self
>> "Brevity is the soul of lingerie." Dorothy Parker
>> http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html
>>

Renata wrote:

> Right. Being in the middle of war is always safer than flying around
> the Texas countryside. Hey, maybe that's why he dissappeared for
> those 14 months - he decided it wasn't safe to fly.




I heard the Guard was somewhat glad Dubya was AWOL because he was not a
very good pilot.

Actually I think the word I heard/ read was dangerous.




--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Mark responds:

>
>I heard the Guard was somewhat glad Dubya was AWOL because he was not a
>very good pilot.
>
>Actually I think the word I heard/ read was dangerous.
>

http://www.awolbush.com/

Charlie Self
"Brevity is the soul of lingerie." Dorothy Parker
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:


>
> GWB applied for a transfer from Texas to Alabama so he could work on
> some politician's campaign staff. It appears that he was excused from
> his duties in Texas by his commander there, while the paperwork for
> his transfer was being processed. Then his transfer was denied, but
> there is no evidence that he was ever ordered to return to duty in
> Texas.
>
> It appears that he simply fell through the cracks. Not AWOL.




What an oily attempt at a way around the AWOL issue.

Doesn't work. Still AWOL. Or maybe it implies worse.


--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

[email protected] (Charlie Self) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Mark responds:
>
> >
> >I heard the Guard was somewhat glad Dubya was AWOL because he was not a
> >very good pilot.
> >
> >Actually I think the word I heard/ read was dangerous.
> >
>
> http://www.awolbush.com/
>

While I'd argue that those documents fall short of _proving_ anything
it is reasonable to infer the following:

GWB applied for a transfer from Texas to Alabama so he could work on
some politician's campaign staff. It appears that he was excused from
his duties in Texas by his commander there, while the paperwork for
his transfer was being processed. Then his transfer was denied, but
there is no evidence that he was ever ordered to return to duty in
Texas.

It appears that he simply fell through the cracks. Not AWOL.

--

FF

Mark <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
>
>
> >
> > GWB applied for a transfer from Texas to Alabama so he could work on
> > some politician's campaign staff. It appears that he was excused from
> > his duties in Texas by his commander there, while the paperwork for
> > his transfer was being processed. Then his transfer was denied, but
> > there is no evidence that he was ever ordered to return to duty in
> > Texas.
> >
> > It appears that he simply fell through the cracks. Not AWOL.
>
>
>
>
> What an oily attempt at a way around the AWOL issue.
>
> Doesn't work. Still AWOL. Or maybe it implies worse.
>
>

I'm more inclined to call it slimey than oily. But I also insist
on calling a spade a spade and while I may be mistaken I don't
think someone can be AWOL when one does not have orders to be
somewhere from which one can be absent.

--

FF

Fred the Red Shirt notes:

>> > GWB applied for a transfer from Texas to Alabama so he could work on
>> > some politician's campaign staff. It appears that he was excused from
>> > his duties in Texas by his commander there, while the paperwork for
>> > his transfer was being processed. Then his transfer was denied, but
>> > there is no evidence that he was ever ordered to return to duty in
>> > Texas.
>> >
>> > It appears that he simply fell through the cracks. Not AWOL.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> What an oily attempt at a way around the AWOL issue.
>>
>> Doesn't work. Still AWOL. Or maybe it implies worse.
>>
>>
>
>I'm more inclined to call it slimey than oily. But I also insist
>on calling a spade a spade and while I may be mistaken I don't
>think someone can be AWOL when one does not have orders to be
>somewhere from which one can be absent.

Well, I was a corporal in the Marines, not a whatever the hell GWB was in the
ANG, but I know damned well they'd have found some way to charge my ass, bust
me to private and give me some brig time if I had pulled that sort of shit.

Period.

Maybe not today in the all volunteer everything, but neither GWB nor I was in
the modern military.

Charlie Self
"To create man was a quaint and original idea, but to add the sheep was
tautology." Mark Twain's Notebook

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html

Does the word "guard" mean anything to you guys?

I took a few trips with trash haulers, and the weekend warriors are an
entirely different world. They can say "no" and not go to jail!

Of course, I guess it's easier to bash than check....

"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Charlie Self wrote:
>
> > Fred the Red Shirt notes:
> >
> >
> >>
> >>I'm more inclined to call it slimey than oily. But I also insist
> >>on calling a spade a spade and while I may be mistaken I don't
> >>think someone can be AWOL when one does not have orders to be
> >>somewhere from which one can be absent.
> >
> >
> > Well, I was a corporal in the Marines, not a whatever the hell GWB was
in the
> > ANG, but I know damned well they'd have found some way to charge my ass,
bust
> > me to private and give me some brig time if I had pulled that sort of
shit.
> >
> > Period.
> >
> > Maybe not today in the all volunteer everything, but neither GWB nor I
was in
> > the modern military.
> >
>
>
> I was in the 'modern military' (separated in '82) and I can
> tell you it wouldn't have gone down very well.
>
> I'm pretty sure if I had tried what Dubya got away with I
> would be in front of my commander, in chains, with at least
> one SP/MP holding the leash, while trying to explain my
> absence and why I wasn't at/ why I was unclear about my duty
> station.
>
> OTOH, I'm sure if my Daddy held any position in Washington I
> would be able to get away with being AWOL to work for a
> another politician.
>
>
> There is no excuse for Dubyas absence, but you can't get
> that through to people who choose to remain ignorant.
>
>
> --
>
> Mark
>
> N.E. Ohio
>
>
> Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart.
> (S. Clemens, A.K.A. Mark Twain)
>
> When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure
> ends the suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
>

"Charlie Self"
> George writes:
>
> >
> >Does the word "guard" mean anything to you guys?
> >
> >I took a few trips with trash haulers, and the weekend warriors are an
> >entirely different world. They can say "no" and not go to jail!
> >
> >Of course, I guess it's easier to bash than check....
>
> Uh, sure. Join the military and take off. I don't know, nor do I really care,
> what the current Guard can or can't do, but for most military types, taking 14
> months off is not classed as "saying no." It's called AWOL, or if stressed,
> desertion.
>
> Charlie Self
> "All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is
> sure."


Great self evaluation there in your quote. If Bush had been awol there were
plenty of opportunities for his political enemies to make it stick. Problem is
he had permission to take off early so the issues serves only to occupy the
time of those who have already made up their mind. Those against him
won't be moved and those for him won't be moved. Even if he did get
special consideration back then to run for public office it's more than Clinton
did and he didn't have to lie about getting drafted. That's the problem with
a bias, it's like wearing a backpack. You can't see your own.

Fletis Humplebacker responds:

> Uh, sure. Join the military and take off. I don't know, nor do I really
>care,
>> what the current Guard can or can't do, but for most military types, taking
>14
>> months off is not classed as "saying no." It's called AWOL, or if stressed,
>> desertion.
>>
>> Charlie Self
>> "All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is
>> sure."
>
>
>Great self evaluation there in your quote. If Bush had been awol there were
>plenty of opportunities for his political enemies to make it stick. Problem
>is
>he had permission to take off early so the issues serves only to occupy the
>time of those who have already made up their mind. Those against him
>won't be moved and those for him won't be moved. Even if he did get
>special consideration back then to run for public office it's more than
>Clinton
>did and he didn't have to lie about getting drafted. That's the problem with
>a bias, it's like wearing a backpack. You can't see your own.

Bullshit. He didn't get permission to take off early. He got permission to move
his attendance to another unit. He never showed up. As far as making charges
stick, Bush clearly makes Mr. Teflon, Ronnie Reagan, look like an amateur, and
I'll be damned if I know how he does it, since he doesn't nap most days away to
stay "out of the loop." Oh. Wait. That was his daddy.

I wasn't against Bush until I tried to listen to him. If he's ever had a clear
thought in his life, it was planted by one of his handlers.

As far as Clinton's military service goes, I don't understand the relevance
here. I'm not sure when CLinton "lied about getting drafted." He wasn't
drafted, though he may well have lied his way out of it. That's a
characteristic of politicians, in case you haven't noticed it before. They lie.
Whether I'm biased or not, that's a fact. All parties. All politicians.

Charlie Self
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is
sure."
Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html

George writes:

>
>Does the word "guard" mean anything to you guys?
>
>I took a few trips with trash haulers, and the weekend warriors are an
>entirely different world. They can say "no" and not go to jail!
>
>Of course, I guess it's easier to bash than check....

Uh, sure. Join the military and take off. I don't know, nor do I really care,
what the current Guard can or can't do, but for most military types, taking 14
months off is not classed as "saying no." It's called AWOL, or if stressed,
desertion.

Charlie Self
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is
sure."
Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html

I'll be sure to relay to my nephew that, being in the guard, he can
up and leave any time he feels like it. It's kinda hot in Kuwait and
it's probable he'd much rather be back in the USA.

REnata

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:23:01 -0500, "George"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Does the word "guard" mean anything to you guys?
>
>I took a few trips with trash haulers, and the weekend warriors are an
>entirely different world. They can say "no" and not go to jail!
>
>Of course, I guess it's easier to bash than check....
>
>"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>> Charlie Self wrote:
>>
>> > Fred the Red Shirt notes:
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>I'm more inclined to call it slimey than oily. But I also insist
>> >>on calling a spade a spade and while I may be mistaken I don't
>> >>think someone can be AWOL when one does not have orders to be
>> >>somewhere from which one can be absent.
>> >
>> >
>> > Well, I was a corporal in the Marines, not a whatever the hell GWB was
>in the
>> > ANG, but I know damned well they'd have found some way to charge my ass,
>bust
>> > me to private and give me some brig time if I had pulled that sort of
>shit.
>> >
>> > Period.
>> >
>> > Maybe not today in the all volunteer everything, but neither GWB nor I
>was in
>> > the modern military.
>> >
>>
>>
>> I was in the 'modern military' (separated in '82) and I can
>> tell you it wouldn't have gone down very well.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure if I had tried what Dubya got away with I
>> would be in front of my commander, in chains, with at least
>> one SP/MP holding the leash, while trying to explain my
>> absence and why I wasn't at/ why I was unclear about my duty
>> station.
>>
>> OTOH, I'm sure if my Daddy held any position in Washington I
>> would be able to get away with being AWOL to work for a
>> another politician.
>>
>>
>> There is no excuse for Dubyas absence, but you can't get
>> that through to people who choose to remain ignorant.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> N.E. Ohio
>>
>>
>> Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart.
>> (S. Clemens, A.K.A. Mark Twain)
>>
>> When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure
>> ends the suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
>>
>
>

You're more emotion than sense. Once again, they are _active duty_ players
now. That's what "activation" means.

If you had cared to read and evaluate rather than react, the discussion
devolves from what constitutes service in the _peacetime_ guard, where, in
the gas and trash-passing group I dealt with, you could "bid" your trips,
tell the folks when you would be available and not. Just as GW did.

My twenty plus years of service give me all the credibility I need. Not to
mention the young kid who calls me "dad" who just returned to his station in
Germany from Baghdad.

Now take a laxative and clear your head.

"kenR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I can think of a few thousand people over in Iraq right now that would
> be more than willing to call you a bald face liar for this load of BS.
> Care to try to save some self respect and reword things a little?
>
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
> > Does the word "guard" mean anything to you guys?
> >
> > I took a few trips with trash haulers, and the weekend warriors are an
> > entirely different world. They can say "no" and not go to jail!
> >
> > Of course, I guess it's easier to bash than check....

Except, of course, this bystander - you - has access to all the information,
if you care to review it.

I'd say the fool is the one who fails to do so.

"David Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A.
> > Mark Twain)
>
> I find this quote here to be quite humorus. At least one of you
> certainly is and, as a bystander, I can't tell which.
>
> Dave Hall
>
> > When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense.
> > (Gaz, r.moto)

In article <qbgTb.207477$na.340049@attbi_s04>, [email protected] says...
> Before you slam Bush why don't you get all of the true facts. Everything you
> guys are spreading about him is pure hearsay. Get over it. He's going to be
> our President again. Can any of you actually say you would be proud to say
> you would rather serve under the seven dwarfs that are running for President
> than Bush? If you are a veteran please tell the truth! Kerry is phonier
> than a 3 dollar bill. He has no class with throwing his medals away and
> ditching his first wife and his kids just to marry someone more richer than
> Mrs. Throne was. What a gigolo!
>

... and as far as Mr. Kerry's stance on defense. In 1984 Kerry said
he would cancel the B-1B, B-2, the F-15, the Patriot missile, the Apache
helicopter, the F-14, Harrier jets, and the Aegis air defense cruiser.
He also wanted to cut the Bradley fighting vehicle, the Abrams tank, and
the Tomahawk missile program.

http://www.usorthem.org/current-events/election-2004-john-kerry.html
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-1_30_04_MK.html

He participated in a 1995 proposal to cut intelligence funding by
$300 million over five years, a 1994 proposal to cut $1 billion from the
program that coordinates counterterrorism activities.

Mark <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> George wrote:
>
> >
> > My twenty plus years of service give me all the credibility I need.
>
>
> It may give you credibility for 'bidding station' (Tell us, if you bid a station
> and don't get it can you still go there?) but being a lifer pretty much shoots
> you in the ass for credibility on any other political subject.
>
>
>
> I'll just attribute your beliefs to your having to follow the party line to
> avoid being perceived as being 'unpatriotic'.
>
>
> Be American!! Dissent! Speak your mind! Dubya didn't get what he wanted but he
> did it anyway, how can this be lost on you??
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mark
>
> N.E. Ohio
>
>
> Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
> Mark Twain)

I find this quote here to be quite humorus. At least one of you
certainly is and, as a bystander, I can't tell which.

Dave Hall

> When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
> (Gaz, r.moto)

"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Except, of course, this bystander - you - has access to all the information,
> if you care to review it.
>
> I'd say the fool is the one who fails to do so.

In accordance with your quote, I won't argue with you.

Dave Hall

> > > Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
> A.K.A.
> > > Mark Twain)
> >
> > I find this quote here to be quite humorus. At least one of you
> > certainly is and, as a bystander, I can't tell which.
> >
> > Dave Hall
> >
> > > When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
> suspense.
> > > (Gaz, r.moto)

After John Kerry got out of Vietnam he "threw back" his medal and made a big
deal of it. Later it comes out that it wasn't his medal he "threw back",
seems he wanted to protest but didn't want to part with his own medal.

I also think it's a little duplicitous to vote for military action in Iraq,
both under Clinton and under Bush, and then bitch and gripe about the way it
went. Quickest war ever fought with the least amount of lives on our side
lost and he don't like the way it was fought.

Granted he did serve in wartime, which is more than I have done, and did so
honorably. It's after he got out that he started acting a little shifty, but
then a lot of the guys came back a little off. God bless 'em.

KY

--

http://users.adelphia.net/~kyhighland


"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Fred the Red Shirt notes:
>
> >> > GWB applied for a transfer from Texas to Alabama so he could work on
> >> > some politician's campaign staff. It appears that he was excused
from
> >> > his duties in Texas by his commander there, while the paperwork for
> >> > his transfer was being processed. Then his transfer was denied, but
> >> > there is no evidence that he was ever ordered to return to duty in
> >> > Texas.
> >> >
> >> > It appears that he simply fell through the cracks. Not AWOL.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> What an oily attempt at a way around the AWOL issue.
> >>
> >> Doesn't work. Still AWOL. Or maybe it implies worse.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I'm more inclined to call it slimey than oily. But I also insist
> >on calling a spade a spade and while I may be mistaken I don't
> >think someone can be AWOL when one does not have orders to be
> >somewhere from which one can be absent.
>
> Well, I was a corporal in the Marines, not a whatever the hell GWB was in
the
> ANG, but I know damned well they'd have found some way to charge my ass,
bust
> me to private and give me some brig time if I had pulled that sort of
shit.
>
> Period.
>
> Maybe not today in the all volunteer everything, but neither GWB nor I was
in
> the modern military.
>
> Charlie Self
> "To create man was a quaint and original idea, but to add the sheep was
> tautology." Mark Twain's Notebook
>
> http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html

George wrote:

>
> My twenty plus years of service give me all the credibility I need.


It may give you credibility for 'bidding station' (Tell us, if you bid a station
and don't get it can you still go there?) but being a lifer pretty much shoots
you in the ass for credibility on any other political subject.



I'll just attribute your beliefs to your having to follow the party line to
avoid being perceived as being 'unpatriotic'.


Be American!! Dissent! Speak your mind! Dubya didn't get what he wanted but he
did it anyway, how can this be lost on you??




--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
(Gaz, r.moto)

I can think of a few thousand people over in Iraq right now that would
be more than willing to call you a bald face liar for this load of BS.
Care to try to save some self respect and reword things a little?

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> Does the word "guard" mean anything to you guys?
>
> I took a few trips with trash haulers, and the weekend warriors are an
> entirely different world. They can say "no" and not go to jail!
>
> Of course, I guess it's easier to bash than check....
>
> "Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > Charlie Self wrote:
> >
> > > Fred the Red Shirt notes:
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>I'm more inclined to call it slimey than oily. But I also insist
> > >>on calling a spade a spade and while I may be mistaken I don't
> > >>think someone can be AWOL when one does not have orders to be
> > >>somewhere from which one can be absent.
> > >
> > >
> > > Well, I was a corporal in the Marines, not a whatever the hell GWB was
> in the
> > > ANG, but I know damned well they'd have found some way to charge my ass,
> bust
> > > me to private and give me some brig time if I had pulled that sort of
> shit.
> > >
> > > Period.
> > >
> > > Maybe not today in the all volunteer everything, but neither GWB nor I
> was in
> > > the modern military.
> > >
> >
> >
> > I was in the 'modern military' (separated in '82) and I can
> > tell you it wouldn't have gone down very well.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure if I had tried what Dubya got away with I
> > would be in front of my commander, in chains, with at least
> > one SP/MP holding the leash, while trying to explain my
> > absence and why I wasn't at/ why I was unclear about my duty
> > station.
> >
> > OTOH, I'm sure if my Daddy held any position in Washington I
> > would be able to get away with being AWOL to work for a
> > another politician.

Ace <[email protected]> wrote:
: Before you slam Bush why don't you get all of the true facts. Everything you
: guys are spreading about him is pure hearsay.


No, it's actually a matter of record.


Get over it. He's going to be
: our President again.


probably not, if the US citizenship can wise up to what this guy actually
bring to the table.



Can any of you actually say you would be proud to say
: you would rather serve under the seven dwarfs that are running for President
: than Bush?

Sure. I'd vastly rather serve under Wes Clark, or John Kerry, than GWB.
He's an ass who evaded his NG duties, then created a war on the basis of
false intel.


Bush is bush league, all the way. He's an embarrassment.

-- Andy Barss

"Ace" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:qbgTb.207477$na.340049@attbi_s04...
> Kerry is phonier
> than a 3 dollar bill. He has no class with throwing his medals away and
> ditching his first wife and his kids just to marry someone more richer
than
> Mrs. Throne was.

Have you ever looked into the marital habits of some of the
Republican's so-called leaders? Newt? Mr. Impeachment,
Henry Hyde? Bob Livingstone? Ronny Reagan? Bob Dole?
And when you do could you explain what an emergency
divorce is and Dole needed one?

Republicans have no room to criticize ANYONE's marital
status.

Dennis Vogel

Charlie Self wrote:

> Fred the Red Shirt notes:
>
>
>>
>>I'm more inclined to call it slimey than oily. But I also insist
>>on calling a spade a spade and while I may be mistaken I don't
>>think someone can be AWOL when one does not have orders to be
>>somewhere from which one can be absent.
>
>
> Well, I was a corporal in the Marines, not a whatever the hell GWB was in the
> ANG, but I know damned well they'd have found some way to charge my ass, bust
> me to private and give me some brig time if I had pulled that sort of shit.
>
> Period.
>
> Maybe not today in the all volunteer everything, but neither GWB nor I was in
> the modern military.
>


I was in the 'modern military' (separated in '82) and I can
tell you it wouldn't have gone down very well.

I'm pretty sure if I had tried what Dubya got away with I
would be in front of my commander, in chains, with at least
one SP/MP holding the leash, while trying to explain my
absence and why I wasn't at/ why I was unclear about my duty
station.

OTOH, I'm sure if my Daddy held any position in Washington I
would be able to get away with being AWOL to work for a
another politician.


There is no excuse for Dubyas absence, but you can't get
that through to people who choose to remain ignorant.


--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart.
(S. Clemens, A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure
ends the suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Before you slam Bush why don't you get all of the true facts. Everything you
guys are spreading about him is pure hearsay. Get over it. He's going to be
our President again. Can any of you actually say you would be proud to say
you would rather serve under the seven dwarfs that are running for President
than Bush? If you are a veteran please tell the truth! Kerry is phonier
than a 3 dollar bill. He has no class with throwing his medals away and
ditching his first wife and his kids just to marry someone more richer than
Mrs. Throne was. What a gigolo!


"kenR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I can think of a few thousand people over in Iraq right now that would
> be more than willing to call you a bald face liar for this load of BS.
> Care to try to save some self respect and reword things a little?
>
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
> > Does the word "guard" mean anything to you guys?
> >
> > I took a few trips with trash haulers, and the weekend warriors are an
> > entirely different world. They can say "no" and not go to jail!
> >
> > Of course, I guess it's easier to bash than check....
> >
> > "Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > >
> > > Charlie Self wrote:
> > >
> > > > Fred the Red Shirt notes:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >>I'm more inclined to call it slimey than oily. But I also insist
> > > >>on calling a spade a spade and while I may be mistaken I don't
> > > >>think someone can be AWOL when one does not have orders to be
> > > >>somewhere from which one can be absent.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well, I was a corporal in the Marines, not a whatever the hell GWB
was
> > in the
> > > > ANG, but I know damned well they'd have found some way to charge my
ass,
> > bust
> > > > me to private and give me some brig time if I had pulled that sort
of
> > shit.
> > > >
> > > > Period.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe not today in the all volunteer everything, but neither GWB nor
I
> > was in
> > > > the modern military.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I was in the 'modern military' (separated in '82) and I can
> > > tell you it wouldn't have gone down very well.
> > >
> > > I'm pretty sure if I had tried what Dubya got away with I
> > > would be in front of my commander, in chains, with at least
> > > one SP/MP holding the leash, while trying to explain my
> > > absence and why I wasn't at/ why I was unclear about my duty
> > > station.
> > >
> > > OTOH, I'm sure if my Daddy held any position in Washington I
> > > would be able to get away with being AWOL to work for a
> > > another politician.

Hey Andy where did you serve overseas? I don't brag about my duties across
the pond. Why don't you take your left hand and grab a hold of your right
ear and pull your head out of your ASS!

"Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ace <[email protected]> wrote:
> : Before you slam Bush why don't you get all of the true facts. Everything
you
> : guys are spreading about him is pure hearsay.
>
>
> No, it's actually a matter of record.
>
>
> Get over it. He's going to be
> : our President again.
>
>
> probably not, if the US citizenship can wise up to what this guy actually
> bring to the table.
>
>
>
> Can any of you actually say you would be proud to say
> : you would rather serve under the seven dwarfs that are running for
President
> : than Bush?
>
> Sure. I'd vastly rather serve under Wes Clark, or John Kerry, than GWB.
> He's an ass who evaded his NG duties, then created a war on the basis of
> false intel.
>
>
> Bush is bush league, all the way. He's an embarrassment.
>
> -- Andy Barss

Ace writes:

>Hey Andy where did you serve overseas? I don't brag about my duties across
>the pond.

Why mention them, then?

>Why don't you take your left hand and grab a hold of your right
>ear and pull your head out of your ASS!

Try the same action.

Charlie Self
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is
sure."
Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Renata) wrote:
>Right. Being in the middle of war is always safer than flying around
>the Texas countryside. Hey, maybe that's why he dissappeared for
>those 14 months - he decided it wasn't safe to fly.
>
Algore's assignment as a reporter didn't exactly put him "in the middle of a
war". More like in the middle of a hotel room in Saigon.

--
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?

Doug Miller writes:

>>
>Algore's assignment as a reporter didn't exactly put him "in the middle of a
>war". More like in the middle of a hotel room in Saigon.

Not the safest place in the world at that time, but the point remains, Gore is
not president. Bush is.

Charlie Self
"Brevity is the soul of lingerie." Dorothy Parker
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html

Charlie Self wrote:

> Not the safest place in the world at that time, but the point remains, Gore is
> not president. Bush is.


Isn't that the truth.

Since the beginning I have heard 'what Gore would have done' and 'would
you rather have had Gore' to justify Dubyas actions.

The hypothetical of Gore is immaterial.

Then there are the fools who bring up service records. Don't they
realize this is counter productive to any argument they make?


--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Mark wrote:

> The hypothetical of Gore is immaterial.

But not the hypothetical of Bill Cosby. I maintain that America would be
twice the country it is today if we had just voted for Bill Cosby. Jell-O
pudding pops in every pot, chocolate cake for breakfast...

In the the coming race, I see there's still not going to be anyone with
voting for. On the one hand, Dubya, and on the other Demublican X. I
wouldn't vote for any of those twits if I had a choice.

I guess I'll write in Bill Cosby again. He probably gets more votes than
Perot anyway. :)

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Silvan notes:

>I guess I'll write in Bill Cosby again. He probably gets more votes than
>Perot anyway. :)

God, I hope so!

Charlie Self
"Brevity is the soul of lingerie." Dorothy Parker
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Charlie Self) wrote:
>Dave writes:
>
>>What about Al Gore serving 3 months in Nam as a base newspaper photographer
>>untill his senator daddy got him an early out??
>
>From what I heard, it was 3 months as a newspaper writer, but, then, he DID get
>there, even if he didn't get into any action. If his old man was so determined
>to use influence, he'd never have left the States, at least not in that
>direction.
>
OTOH, that's about what might be expected, if the old man wanted to use his
influence while *appearing* not to. Gore *Junior* isn't smart enough to think
of that, but Gore *Senior* might've been.

--
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?

>>>What about Al Gore serving 3 months in Nam as a base newspaper photographer
>>>untill his senator daddy got him an early out??
>>
>>From what I heard, it was 3 months as a newspaper writer, but, then, he DID
>get
>>there, even if he didn't get into any action. If his old man was so
>determined
>>to use influence, he'd never have left the States, at least not in that
>>direction.
>>
>OTOH, that's about what might be expected, if the old man wanted to use his
>influence while *appearing* not to. Gore *Junior* isn't smart enough to think
>
>of that, but Gore *Senior* might've been.

Possible, maybe even probable. Rumors abound about various people: first time I
ever heard of Pat Robertson was in a discussion with some other Marines, who
claimed he'd been on a troopship headed for Korea, but got sidetracked to Japan
through daddy's influence. True? Dunno, but I'd like to believe it.

Charlie Self
"Brevity is the soul of lingerie." Dorothy Parker
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html

You need to either see a shrink or cut back on the drugs. BTW, I
eliminated some of the cross posting so thankfully I won't see another
rant.

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:50:30 -0500, [email protected]
wrote:

>Robertson sued a former congressman and Korean War Marine named
>McCloskey(sp?) and ended up having the suit dismissed with prejudice and
>had to pay McCloskey's attorneys' fees. Robertson was found to have lied
>on TV to his "ministry" about his Korean War "combat" experience.
>
>"President" Bush got into the Guard the year I enlisted in the Army:
>1968. High school and college grads of that year may remember: LBJ
>forbade the military from calling up new Guard and Reserve units for
>service in Vietnam and the "ticket window" was slammed shut in front of
>an 18-month long waiting line. Bush's congressman father "got" him in
>through the former Speaker of the House of Texas (Barnes?), who went
>public before he died. Various ANG officers have also spilled the beans.
>
>He cheated to "skip" the "party" 9.2 million others of us honorably
>"attended."
>
>His dishonor is somewhat compounded by his father's and the CIA's
>assassination of JFK to put us there and the recent 9-11 "Tonkin Gulf
>Hoax/Reichstag Fire."
>
>Gee, what happened to the 125' wingspan outside the 30' hole in the
>Pentagon? And no seats, baggage, fuselage, personal effects, or bodies
>either? Hmmm. And a 757's tail is 40' high...two-thirds the height of
>the Pentagon's outer wall??? "New" Physics?


--
Is 'tired old cliche' one?

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Charlie Self) wrote:

> >>>What about Al Gore serving 3 months in Nam as a base newspaper
> >>>photographer
> >>>untill his senator daddy got him an early out??
> >>
> >>From what I heard, it was 3 months as a newspaper writer, but, then, he DID
> >get
> >>there, even if he didn't get into any action. If his old man was so
> >determined
> >>to use influence, he'd never have left the States, at least not in that
> >>direction.
> >>
> >OTOH, that's about what might be expected, if the old man wanted to use his
> >influence while *appearing* not to. Gore *Junior* isn't smart enough to
> >think
> >
> >of that, but Gore *Senior* might've been.
>
> Possible, maybe even probable. Rumors abound about various people: first time
> I
> ever heard of Pat Robertson was in a discussion with some other Marines, who
> claimed he'd been on a troopship headed for Korea, but got sidetracked to
> Japan
> through daddy's influence. True? Dunno, but I'd like to believe it.
>
> Charlie Self
> "Brevity is the soul of lingerie." Dorothy Parker
> http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html

Robertson sued a former congressman and Korean War Marine named
McCloskey(sp?) and ended up having the suit dismissed with prejudice and
had to pay McCloskey's attorneys' fees. Robertson was found to have lied
on TV to his "ministry" about his Korean War "combat" experience.

"President" Bush got into the Guard the year I enlisted in the Army:
1968. High school and college grads of that year may remember: LBJ
forbade the military from calling up new Guard and Reserve units for
service in Vietnam and the "ticket window" was slammed shut in front of
an 18-month long waiting line. Bush's congressman father "got" him in
through the former Speaker of the House of Texas (Barnes?), who went
public before he died. Various ANG officers have also spilled the beans.

He cheated to "skip" the "party" 9.2 million others of us honorably
"attended."

His dishonor is somewhat compounded by his father's and the CIA's
assassination of JFK to put us there and the recent 9-11 "Tonkin Gulf
Hoax/Reichstag Fire."

Gee, what happened to the 125' wingspan outside the 30' hole in the
Pentagon? And no seats, baggage, fuselage, personal effects, or bodies
either? Hmmm. And a 757's tail is 40' high...two-thirds the height of
the Pentagon's outer wall??? "New" Physics?

[email protected] wrote:
>
> His dishonor is somewhat compounded by his father's and the CIA's
> assassination of JFK to put us there

I trust you won't mind if we ask you to prove that.

--
Mike Smith

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Dave writes:
>
> >What about Al Gore serving 3 months in Nam as a base newspaper photographer
> >untill his senator daddy got him an early out??
>
> From what I heard, it was 3 months as a newspaper writer, but, then, he DID get
> there, even if he didn't get into any action. If his old man was so determined
> to use influence, he'd never have left the States, at least not in that
> direction.
>

... and he was probably safer there as a newspaper writer than young
Bush was in the States actually flying jets, especially jets designed
and built in the mid to late 60's. For someone to want to dodge the
draft for safety, becoming a fighter pilot is sort of self-defeating.
US military jets, in spite of tremendous efforts to make them as safe as
possible, are always pushing the edge of technological feasibility to
eke out perfomance margin. As such, there is risk associated with jet
flight.

>
> Charlie Self
> "Brevity is the soul of lingerie." Dorothy Parker
> http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html
>

Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> ...
> > From what I heard, it was 3 months as a newspaper writer, but, then, he DID get
> > there, even if he didn't get into any action. If his old man was so determined
> > to use influence, he'd never have left the States, at least not in that
> > direction.
> >
>
> ... and he was probably safer there as a newspaper writer than young
> Bush was in the States actually flying jets, especially jets designed
> and built in the mid to late 60's.

Especially considering who the pilot was.

--

FF

On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 18:34:09 +0000, Charlie Self wrote:


> Really. I've read take-outs from unit records that enforce it.

They referenced military records that refute it.

-Doug

Dave wrote:

> What about Al Gore serving 3 months in Nam as a base newspaper photographer
> untill his senator daddy got him an early out??




What's Gore got to do with anything?

Gore would only be an issue if he were president.


--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)