Went Out Looking At Cabinet Saws Tonight...

-linux_lad <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I have a 1023. I also have a fairly old unisaw, which I don't use. When
> I see people dread the grizzly, I have to wonder if they've been
> misinformed. My 1023 was delivered to California four days after I
> ordered it, and it arrived with it's packing intact. I cleaned off the
> cosmoline and put it together in a couple of hours, and spent a couple
> of hours the next day tuning it. Aside from some minor adjustments, I
> have never had to do anything major to the saw since I put it together.
> Grizzly is one of the rare companies that provide great value for the
> money. The saw cuts straight and true, and I should think it would be
> adequate for any hobbyist or even a new shop. I'm just a hobbyist, but I
> know a good tools when I see them, and I assure you, the Grizzly is a
> good tool. Ask how many people here are disappointed with their 1023,
> and I doubt you'll find even one. I'm not saying the powermatic is
> inferior, but the extra thousand bucks will buy you a good jointer and a
> mortiser, which you're gonna need.
>
> The keys to turning out quality work are patience, consistent
> measuring technique, and the ability to learn from mistakes (practice).
> You can achieve good results from a contractor saw if you're willing to
> put in a little extra work. I know this is considered high treason in
> some circles, but you don't have to have a top of the line saw to turn
> out great work. If you have a good fence, a flat table and true
> bearings, and a good blade, you'll get perfect cuts every time. Get the
> 1023. If you don't like it after you get it, you'll be able to sell it
> for very close to what you paid for it, and sometimes you can get more
> than retail for a saw that's already been set up and tuned.
>
> Good luck, and I can't wait to see some pics of your work!
>
> --
> -linux_lad

I'll vouch for the 1023. I've had mine for about a month (1023SL). So far
so good. Delivery was quick. setup was quick. Very little "tuning" was
needed. I'm very happy and aside from a prettier color, I can't imagine
needing anything more. What more is there than straight, consistent cuts?
Mechanical dependability? Jury is still out on that one for me, but that
thing is like a tank.

Brian

I'm anxious to hear about this monster myself.

Don

"Ollie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have been in similar situation. First, I was leaningtowards PM66 and
> 650-T50, but then gained more trust towards Grizzly. Today I made an
order
> for G5959Z (12", 5HP). I know that it is cheper than PM and General and I
> expect it to be as good or even better. Once I get it, I will let you
know
> about my impressions.
>
> Cheers, Ollie
>
> PS. I failed twice to get my order through Amazon and made the order
> directly from Grizzly.
>
> "Darin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > >>I have a 1023. I also have a fairly old unisaw, which I don't use.
When
> > >>I see people dread the grizzly, I have to wonder if they've been
> > >>misinformed. My 1023 was delivered to California four days after I
> > >
> > > I'll vouch for the 1023. I've had mine for about a month (1023SL).
So
> far
> > > so good. Delivery was quick. setup was quick. Very little "tuning"
> was
> > > needed. I'm very happy and aside from a prettier color, I can't
imagine
> > > needing anything more. What more is there than straight, consistent
> cuts?
> > > Mechanical dependability? Jury is still out on that one for me, but
> that
> > > thing is like a tank.
> >
> > Thanks for the feedback. I think I've come to the conclusion that the
> > Grizzly is the best one for the money. I've spent about a week pondering
> > and researching and soliciting opinions -- and, being the nerd I am,
> > even made a spreadsheet comparing the specs of my leading choices.
> >
> > All things considered, it seems obvious that the Grizzly is the best
> > machine for the money -- assuming it arrives intact and everything is
> > flat, square and true.
> >
> > Now to go to the Oracle (my dad) for his advice :-)
>
>

Darin notes:

>On the floor they have a PM66 set up, along with a General 650-T50, a
>General International 50-260, and a Jet SuperSaw (plus a selection of
>contractor saws and some used equipment -- including a 1950s 12"-14"
>Rockwell Unisaw that came out of a school woodshop somewhere and has
>seen a -lot- of use -- for $895).

That Rockwell is probably a good buy, but I don't believe the Unisaw was made
in 12"/14" (Keith, where are you?)...check the fence, and, because it was a
school shop, make sure it isn't 3 phase. See if you can start it up and run a
couple boards through. Check arbor run-out (dial indicator in the saw plate may
do, but you may have to lift the insert and check the arbor itself).

A lot of use won't hurt these saws as along as 2 things remain good: The
trunnions (check by tilting the blade to a variety of angles, checking degrees
as you go, and see how smoothly it operates); The arbor bearings. The latter
are fairly easy to replace.

Charlie Self
"Don't let yesterday use up too much of today." Will Rogers

Darin <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Thanks for the feedback. I think I've come to the conclusion that the
> Grizzly is the best one for the money. ...

>
> All things considered, it seems obvious that the Grizzly is the best
> machine for the money -- assuming it arrives intact and everything is
> flat, square and true.

Let me toss in my 2 cents. I recently purchased the Delta X5. It
wasn't my first choice, it was actually my second. The General 650 was
my first. However, the Delta was so close that after ordering the
General from my local dealer (100 miles away) and 7 weeks later still
having issues getting it from Canada, I gave up and ordered the Delta
from the local Woodcraft dealer. I considered the Grizzly, but then I
remembered one VERY important thing, that's a whole lot iron/weight to
be trying to replace if/when I decided to move up to another saw. I
think the best advice I was given was buy smart, which doesn't always
mean the most expensive, nor the least expensive. In this case just
think about what happens if you decide to replace it. The money you
save now on the Grizzly may not be the best option should you decide
to buy something else. For the record I don't think there is anything
wrong with Grizzly, however when I looked at what the total cost was
to get identical saws, it was only about $400 difference. I decided
that I would rather pay the extra to keep the money in North America
(which is why ultimately my choice boiled down to General and Delta --
PM was a bit too much for me). But, those are all decisions you'll
have to consider.

Wayne

Ohhhh Sooooo True:

Here is da saw in question:

http://home.att.net/~mboceanside/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-638867.html
http://home.att.net/~mboceanside/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-639331.html
The picture doesn't tell the "entire" story...

The 34-350 is NOT a Unisaw...

The correct name is 12"-14" Tilting Arbor table saw.

The cast iron top measures 39"x48" with no tables attached.

The saw comes in at a dainty 830 Lbs. (Unisaw weight is 380 lbs)

The motor is a standard frame and can be replaced very easily.

The original motor has a weight of 130 lbs.

My saw was built in 04/66 and will out cut most of the saws
described in this thread.

Ohhhhh.. I almost forgot... I paid $165 at a school auction.


Unisaw A100 wrote:

> The saw he saw is/was a Delta/Crescent (1) No. 34-350. It
> is a 12/14 and if you pop the top off you'd swear you
> were/are looking at a Unisaw, only way huger. The last time
> I was at Tried and True there were two of these. One was a
> mid/late 60's machine. One was single phase. I suspect
> this is one of those. Anyway, this is the saw Pat Barber
> bought by accident and hasn't stopped talking about since,
> and rightfully so.
>
>
>>make sure it isn't 3 phase.
>
>
> The nice thing about the 12/14 is it took a non-proprietary
> motor. Typically these saw run in the mid thousand
> ($1200/$1500) range. Originally I think they sold for the
> equivalent of $4000ish in 2004 dollars.

I agree entirely. I happen to have a BMW (Z3 roadster), but your
comment would apply to pretty much any car over $10k or so. I've never
had so much fun with a car than with this one, but I would never say I
"need" it. Assuming the "need" is transportation.

I think the argument breaks down though if someone is expected to
present a certain image. For example, most people wouldn't want to see
their financial advisor showing up in a $1,000 car. Maybe they SHOULD
want to see that, but I think most people would rather see their
financial advisor display their financial success by driving a Jaguar or
other luxury car. In these cases I can see the argument that the
expensive car really is "needed".

I think it was the book "The Millionaire Next Door" that did a bunch of
research on what millionaires spend their money on. It's been years
since I read it so these details might not be 100% correct, but I know
the point is. The average millionaire buys a car new and then drives it
for an average of 6-7 years before trading it in for another new car.
They normally buy a nice car, but not necessarily a luxury car. This is
one reason they have money. Many people driving luxury cars, wearing
Armani suits, a Rolex, etc don't have much money saved because they
spend it as fast as they make it. The point of the book is that you
can't tell who the millionaires are because they became millionaires by
not living like a millionaire. Of course this only applies to those who
have had to struggle for years to become millionaires, all bets are off
when it comes to the instant millionaires of the 90's.

--
Larry C in Auburn WA
"Stephen M" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have nit to pick with folks who by expensive cars (or expensive saws
for
> that matter) who say the *NEED* them.
>
> Most of us *need* a car to get to work, but most of us don't *need* a
BMW. I
> am not a BMW basher. I'd love to own one. However I believe that the
entry
> in the personal income statement for a $50,000 car should read like
this:
>
> $10,000 - Transportation expense
> $40,000 - Entertainment and penile compensation expense.
>
> by all means drive a nice car and enjoy it.... just call it what it
is.

I have been in similar situation. First, I was leaningtowards PM66 and
650-T50, but then gained more trust towards Grizzly. Today I made an order
for G5959Z (12", 5HP). I know that it is cheper than PM and General and I
expect it to be as good or even better. Once I get it, I will let you know
about my impressions.

Cheers, Ollie

PS. I failed twice to get my order through Amazon and made the order
directly from Grizzly.

"Darin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >>I have a 1023. I also have a fairly old unisaw, which I don't use. When
> >>I see people dread the grizzly, I have to wonder if they've been
> >>misinformed. My 1023 was delivered to California four days after I
> >
> > I'll vouch for the 1023. I've had mine for about a month (1023SL). So
far
> > so good. Delivery was quick. setup was quick. Very little "tuning"
was
> > needed. I'm very happy and aside from a prettier color, I can't imagine
> > needing anything more. What more is there than straight, consistent
cuts?
> > Mechanical dependability? Jury is still out on that one for me, but
that
> > thing is like a tank.
>
> Thanks for the feedback. I think I've come to the conclusion that the
> Grizzly is the best one for the money. I've spent about a week pondering
> and researching and soliciting opinions -- and, being the nerd I am,
> even made a spreadsheet comparing the specs of my leading choices.
>
> All things considered, it seems obvious that the Grizzly is the best
> machine for the money -- assuming it arrives intact and everything is
> flat, square and true.
>
> Now to go to the Oracle (my dad) for his advice :-)

> One of my more immediate needs is a tablesaw (to rip some long lumber to
> help build the shop itself -- it's a complicated story). I suspect I'll
> probably end up with a cabinet saw of some sort (since I plan to
> eventually build kitchen cabinets and some heavy oak Arts & Crafts
> furniture and I don't want to buy my saw twice), but I haven't actually
> convinced myself of this yet. (The other alternatives being a good
> contractor saw or one of the new hybrids.)

This is how "justified" my cabinet saw. It cost me $2K in material that I
(wild ass guess) assume would have cost me $7000 to buy.. at least 5 anyway.
I had also been enjoying this hobby for a decade and there was no question
that I would enjoy the investment for years.

I did my cabs in 3 runs... to get some basic functionality, and them to wrap
up the job.

1. 2 (6-door) runs of base cabs, plus a (6-door) run of uppers
2. Built-ins
3. Pantry

After the 1st 2 runs, I found that one places where (modest) error was
creeping into the carcases was from handling large sheet stock. I
significant outfeed table really helped in that regard. I suggest
considering building one *before* you do large casework with sheet stock.

Snip...
> I dunno what I was expecting -- the heavens to burst open and a chorus
> of angels to break into song or something

Nice audio/visual :-)

-- but in fact the experience
> was surprisingly underwhelming. They were just great big hunks of iron
> with a really Spartan user interface: a few bolts, two cranks and a
> sliding bar :-)

Well, you're right. But if all that iron doesn't give you a woodie, maybe
you should take up needlepoint (just kidding).

After using a Jet cabinet saw for a couple of years, I get the willies when
I use my Dad's mid-level Delta contractor's saw. It does not "feel" as solid
/safe/predictable". That's not scientific, or quantifiable but it it works
for me.

I *enjoy* using my saw. It is not simply a means to an end. If you enjoy the
journey and not just the destination, a cabinet saw will pay for itself
over time in grins.

YMMV

Steve

> When a "what should I buy" question comes up, it invariably ends up with
one
> side suggesting Unisaw as minimum and the other side saying a used
benchtop
> with 8" blade is more than enough.

Well... I believe that you exaggerated on the low end there. But your point
is valid.

>It is not just cutting the wood, it is
> how you do the job. Nice tools are fun to use.

Absolutely.

> Applies to everything in life. Look at the parking lot at work. Some
drive
> luxury cares they can barely afford because they like all the goodies,
> others that make big bucks drive an old Pinto because they take pride in
how
> much money they saved in gas.

I have nit to pick with folks who by expensive cars (or expensive saws for
that matter) who say the *NEED* them.

Most of us *need* a car to get to work, but most of us don't *need* a BMW. I
am not a BMW basher. I'd love to own one. However I believe that the entry
in the personal income statement for a $50,000 car should read like this:

$10,000 - Transportation expense
$40,000 - Entertainment and penile compensation expense.

by all means drive a nice car and enjoy it.... just call it what it is.

FWIW I am happy to drive a car with 110,000 miles on it because it enables
me to be a bit more extravigant in the shop.

> Buy what you are comfortable with.
> Ed

Amen.

"Larry C in Auburn, WA" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I agree entirely. I happen to have a BMW (Z3 roadster),

That's a "drive by" neener if I've ever seen one :-).

> but your
> comment would apply to pretty much any car over $10k or so. I've never
> had so much fun with a car than with this one, but I would never say I
> "need" it. Assuming the "need" is transportation.

Yup.

> I think the argument breaks down though if someone is expected to
> present a certain image. For example, most people wouldn't want to see
> their financial advisor showing up in a $1,000 car. Maybe they SHOULD
> want to see that, but I think most people would rather see their
> financial advisor display their financial success by driving a Jaguar or
> other luxury car. In these cases I can see the argument that the
> expensive car really is "needed".

I agree. I did say "most". If you're in sales, you have to have a "young"
car. It's a required tool of the trade. Pristine truck owners who refuse to
put anything in the bed because it might get scratched.

Lets see; is there anyone else that I can alienate :-).

My issue is mostly with folks who spend 1/2 their annual gross on a
full-sized SUV and trade every 2 years. Not that they do it, rather that
they do not acknowledge that it is an indulgence.

> I think it was the book "The Millionaire Next Door" that did a bunch of
> research on what millionaires spend their money on. It's been years
> since I read it so these details might not be 100% correct, but I know
> the point is. The average millionaire buys a car new and then drives it
> for an average of 6-7 years before trading it in for another new car.
> They normally buy a nice car, but not necessarily a luxury car. This is
> one reason they have money.

That's an interesting statistic. It is consistent with my limited personal
observation. I do have one good friend in the financial industry who makes
(I'm guessing) over $200k/year. His primary car is a BMW convertible (not
sure of the model). He bought it used (2 years old). His second car is a
mazda mx6 which is 9 years old which is incredibly sweet given its age.

Of course then there is the obligatory minivan.

As a percentage of gross income, that's probably a pretty small number

>Many people driving luxury cars, wearing
> Armani suits, a Rolex, etc don't have much money saved because they
> spend it as fast as they make it. The point of the book is that you
> can't tell who the millionaires are because they became millionaires by
> not living like a millionaire. Of course this only applies to those who
> have had to struggle for years to become millionaires, all bets are off
> when it comes to the instant millionaires of the 90's.

> Larry C in Auburn WA
> "Stephen M" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I have nit to pick with folks who by expensive cars (or expensive saws
> for
> > that matter) who say the *NEED* them.
> >
> > Most of us *need* a car to get to work, but most of us don't *need* a
> BMW. I
> > am not a BMW basher. I'd love to own one. However I believe that the
> entry
> > in the personal income statement for a $50,000 car should read like
> this:
> >
> > $10,000 - Transportation expense
> > $40,000 - Entertainment and penile compensation expense.
> >
> > by all means drive a nice car and enjoy it.... just call it what it
> is.
>

>>I have a 1023. I also have a fairly old unisaw, which I don't use. When
>>I see people dread the grizzly, I have to wonder if they've been
>>misinformed. My 1023 was delivered to California four days after I
>
> I'll vouch for the 1023. I've had mine for about a month (1023SL). So far
> so good. Delivery was quick. setup was quick. Very little "tuning" was
> needed. I'm very happy and aside from a prettier color, I can't imagine
> needing anything more. What more is there than straight, consistent cuts?
> Mechanical dependability? Jury is still out on that one for me, but that
> thing is like a tank.

Thanks for the feedback. I think I've come to the conclusion that the
Grizzly is the best one for the money. I've spent about a week pondering
and researching and soliciting opinions -- and, being the nerd I am,
even made a spreadsheet comparing the specs of my leading choices.

All things considered, it seems obvious that the Grizzly is the best
machine for the money -- assuming it arrives intact and everything is
flat, square and true.

Now to go to the Oracle (my dad) for his advice :-)

I'm pretty comfortable with my delta contracotrs saw. Does everything
I need.

-Dan V.

On Wed, 05 May 2004 13:32:15 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>Buy what you are comfortable with.
>Ed
>

On Wed, 05 May 2004 15:06:13 +0000, Pat Barber wrote:

> Ohhhh Sooooo True:
>
> Here is da saw in question:
>
<snip disgustingly smug rehash of Unisawrus>
>
> Ohhhhh.. I almost forgot... I paid $165 at a school auction.

It's the gloat that wouldn't die! Run!

mumble...'course I'd still be gloating too...mutter

--
Joe Wells

Charlie Self wrote:
>That Rockwell is probably a good buy, but I don't believe the Unisaw was made
>in 12"/14" (Keith, where are you?)

The saw he saw is/was a Delta/Crescent (1) No. 34-350. It
is a 12/14 and if you pop the top off you'd swear you
were/are looking at a Unisaw, only way huger. The last time
I was at Tried and True there were two of these. One was a
mid/late 60's machine. One was single phase. I suspect
this is one of those. Anyway, this is the saw Pat Barber
bought by accident and hasn't stopped talking about since,
and rightfully so.

>make sure it isn't 3 phase.

The nice thing about the 12/14 is it took a non-proprietary
motor. Typically these saw run in the mid thousand
($1200/$1500) range. Originally I think they sold for the
equivalent of $4000ish in 2004 dollars.

These are the last saw you'll ever buy/need.

(1) The saw it is SWAGed was designed by Delta but built at
the Crescent works in Leetonia, OH hence the Delta/Crescent
moniker.

UA100, who did find an Delta LTA switch box with a No. 132
switch for $38 at Tried and True (last one on eBay went for
$200ish)...

Darin wrote:

> (For the record, they wanted $2049 for the PM66 complete [3 H.P., I
> believe, but it may have been 5], $1849 for the General 650-T50
> complete, and $1279 for the General International 50-260 [plus $75 for
> the extension table + $36 for the legs]. In any case, I'd have to pay
> another $50 for delivery, plus 6.5% state sales tax, plus some more cash
> to some big burly guys to actually move it down into the shop. For some
> reason I was expecting the General 650 to be a lot cheaper than it was
> -- somewhere between a Grizzly 1023 and a Unisaw, but it's actually a
> bit more expensive than a Unisaw. Since I probably can't justify that
> kind of change to my wife -- particularly since I haven't actually
> -built- anything yet -- I'll probably go with a Grizzly 1023 from Amazon
> and simply put up with the initial delivery and set-up problems people
> seem to experience with these. Or maybe the General contractor saw. I
> dunno -- I'll have to keep thinking on it...)
>
> P.S. If I do go Grizzly, should I opt for the equivalent ShopFox
> instead? Is there any difference in the fit and finish other than the
> paint?


I have a 1023. I also have a fairly old unisaw, which I don't use. When
I see people dread the grizzly, I have to wonder if they've been
misinformed. My 1023 was delivered to California four days after I
ordered it, and it arrived with it's packing intact. I cleaned off the
cosmoline and put it together in a couple of hours, and spent a couple
of hours the next day tuning it. Aside from some minor adjustments, I
have never had to do anything major to the saw since I put it together.
Grizzly is one of the rare companies that provide great value for the
money. The saw cuts straight and true, and I should think it would be
adequate for any hobbyist or even a new shop. I'm just a hobbyist, but I
know a good tools when I see them, and I assure you, the Grizzly is a
good tool. Ask how many people here are disappointed with their 1023,
and I doubt you'll find even one. I'm not saying the powermatic is
inferior, but the extra thousand bucks will buy you a good jointer and a
mortiser, which you're gonna need.

The keys to turning out quality work are patience, consistent
measuring technique, and the ability to learn from mistakes (practice).
You can achieve good results from a contractor saw if you're willing to
put in a little extra work. I know this is considered high treason in
some circles, but you don't have to have a top of the line saw to turn
out great work. If you have a good fence, a flat table and true
bearings, and a good blade, you'll get perfect cuts every time. Get the
1023. If you don't like it after you get it, you'll be able to sell it
for very close to what you paid for it, and sometimes you can get more
than retail for a saw that's already been set up and tuned.

Good luck, and I can't wait to see some pics of your work!

--
-linux_lad
To verify that this post isn't forged, click here:
http://www.spoofproof.org/verify.php?sig=8664cabb33814f0f8ed2f5cae7e7a114

"Stephen M" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I *enjoy* using my saw. It is not simply a means to an end. If you enjoy
the
> journey and not just the destination, a cabinet saw will pay for itself
> over time in grins.
>

When a "what should I buy" question comes up, it invariably ends up with one
side suggesting Unisaw as minimum and the other side saying a used benchtop
with 8" blade is more than enough. It is not just cutting the wood, it is
how you do the job. Nice tools are fun to use.

Applies to everything in life. Look at the parking lot at work. Some drive
luxury cares they can barely afford because they like all the goodies,
others that make big bucks drive an old Pinto because they take pride in how
much money they saved in gas.

Buy what you are comfortable with.
Ed