Hi all
Sorry for this variation of a frequantly asked question.
I am installing homemade baseboards made from MDF. The part I have to
nail through is 5/8 inch thick.
I have a compressor. I planning on getting an air nailer. Question is:
1. 18G brad nailer or 16G finish nailer?
2. If I go with the 18G brad nailer, is 1.25 inch 18G brads enough or
do I need 1.5 inch 18G brads?
3. Ditto, if I go with 16G finish nailer, what length nails?
I have a C&H 3HP/4Gal compressor, and depending on the recommendations
I get for nail size and length, I am favouring a Porter Cable or
Paslode nailer. (Senco is harder to find here in Toronto.)
Thank.
Yc
Toronto
I am glad to see you do know the difference in the trades. the only
thing I would disagree with is in a shop environment you generally have
A journeyman cabinetmaker that will over see an entire job from start to
finish. A machinemen who run the machines and make the parts. A benchmen who
assemble the product with all the hardware and prep it for finishing.
Not cabinetmakers assembling product. A cabinetmaker should be able to
work any where on the shop all the way to the finishing department.When I
interview a person for a job I am very particular in asking them if they are
a cabinetmaker, machinemen or a benchmen for that reason.
CHRIS
"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Chris Melanson:
> >>>I was told once and still believe this saying "a cabinetmaker will
always make
> >>>an good carpenter but a carpenter will seldom make a good
cabinetmaker."
>
> UA100:
> >>Wow! That's a ton of horseshit packed down into a wee
> >>little bag there.
>
> Tom Veatch:
> >Yeah, it does smell a wee bit of condescension, doesn't it?
>
>
> Condescending? Yes. I also think it's shows a limited
> knowledge of the world around us. Comparing cabinetmakers
> to carpenters is like asking, what's more important, your
> car's engine or the wheels?
>
> In my business (architectural wooddorking/commercial
> wooddorking) we deal with several disciplines of the
> woodworking community.
>
> Millworkers:
> These guys are charged with taking raw stock and forming it
> into the shapes required up stream to build and assemble a
> final product. They are the ones who operate the straight
> line rip saws, the jointers, the planers, the molders and
> CNC routers. Their product ends up on a cart, in stacks and
> then gets pushed up to the next area. I've seen these guys
> put out crown moldings formed to an ellipse that I wouldn't
> attempt in a cajillion years.
>
> Cabinetmakers:
> These are the guys who sort through the cart, find all the
> parts 'n pieces and make the final cuts/shapes that allow
> them to assemble the parts 'n pieces into a wonderment of
> wooddorking. I have a picture of some work they've done for
> a local opera house that would make your (and my) sphincter
> pucker.
>
> Finishers:
> These are the stainers and top coaters who take the wood
> assemblies from being "in the white" to a finished (as of
> this point) product. If you ever wondered, can a finish
> free of boogers and runs ever be accomplished, the answer
> is, yes and it's done daily. These guys also have to be
> competent in all manner of finishing product which if you
> haven't noticed requires a back ground in chemistry.
>
> Carpenters:
> These are the guys on site who take the final product and
> put it into place where the architect designed it/client
> needs it. These are the guys who put up the sphincter
> puckering opera house work and when they were done the seams
> all blended into the next and the gaps were all closed.
> Most of the time (OK, all the time) these guys work under
> horrific conditions compared to those back in the shop. I
> would go so far to say that most of the guys from the shop
> (the cabinetmakers) would wet themselves if they had to work
> under these conditions for an extended period of time.
>
> I could tell you horror stories about each of these groups
> and I'm sure they could/would dis on me too with equal
> bravado. The point is, each does a job and there's not a
> one that I would go up against and compare my worth to or
> consider that I could replace.
>
> Now before anyone jumps in and qualifies their argument
> with, "Yah-but, rough carpenters, those are the guys with
> their brains bashed in", we've had a couple of projects here
> in town over the last couple of years that prove otherwise.
> One was a new printing facility for the local newspaper.
> The most impressive room in the place was a Concrete Clad
> Cathedral for the newspaper's printing presses. From one
> end to the next the span was something like 300 feet (a
> hunnert yards). This room was to house some cutting edge
> European printing presses with some extremely high
> tolerances for level and plumb. The rough carpenters laid
> out the floor and formed for the concrete pour several pits
> that the presses were to fit in. When the pour was done the
> variance over the 300 feet was a thirty second of an inch.
> That's the distance between the two first marks on your tape
> measure cut into two only they did it over the length of a
> football (Murican style) field.
>
> Not bad for the bottom feeders on the totem ehh?
>
> UA100, thinking, time to get real here, ehh?...
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=20048&category=1,190,43034
Lee Valley's air powered spray gun has received very good reviews for
beginners.
--
Greg
"Han" wrote in message...
> If anyone cares to (again) give opinions about spray finishing equipment
> for a rank amateur who will only be doing this very occasionally, I'll be
> happy to receive any info (links especially appreciated).
Chris Melanson wrote:
> In a large shop environment....
Chris, Can you explain how you are able to dictate the
conventions of a large shop? What I'm meaning to find out
is, is it possible that a large shop where you operate from
doesn't quite have the same set of conventions as a large
shop somewhere else?
UA100, who always thought a large shop was 20 skilled
mechanics or more but is willing (always hoping) to be
taught something new...
Hi again
Thanks for all the replies.
Something unusual about my situation. The house is built late 50's.
The "drywall" starts above the floor plate. Where I have removed the
old baseboards (on internal walls on first and second floors), I can
clearly see what I think is the edge of the floor plate. Solid wood
about 1 3/4 inches thick above the subfloor.
(New and old baseboards are 2.5 inches high. I don't think I need to
nail into the drywall above the floor plate to hold the baseboards to
the wall.)
Based on what I think I am hearing so far, with 5/8 baseboard plus 3/4
to 1 inch bite, I need 1 3/8 to 1 5/8 inch nails. That rules out some
of the lower end brad nailers. Some 18G brad nailers do go up to 2
inch but I've heard those brads sometimes bend going in. And since I
don't intend to use glue, I will need all the holding power I can get.
So, it will be 16G finish nailer with 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 inch nails.
Probably will rent a Stanley Bostitch from HD to try.
Thanks all.
Yc
Toronto.
In article <[email protected]>, Han
<[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm planning to get a compressor as well, among other things for nailing.
> What's a C&H?
Sorry Han,
I meant Campbell Hausfeld. The model I have gives me 6.2 cfm at 90
psi. Overkill for a single person slowly installing baseboards. I use
it mainly for blowing out my lawn sprinkle system in the fall. For
that task, it has barely enough power. E-mail me directly if you want
to know more about that.
Yc
Toronto
Tom
Thanks for your input. I also found this website
http://www.burton-mouldings.com/main.htm?install.htm
which has this to say about dimples.
"Nailing: Best results are obtained using 18 gauge pneumatic T-nails.
Air pressure should be 90-110 psi. If a rim or lip of raised material
is created around the nail hole (volcano effect), remove the driver
from the nail gun and remove any burrs on the tip using a fine metal
file. The rim is caused by burrs on the nail gun driver pulling
material out of the nail hole as the driver retracts."
Thought you might find it interesting.
Yc
Toronto
In article <[email protected]>, Tom Watson
<[email protected]> wrote:
> MDF has a habit of dimpling when it's power nailed. By that I mean
> that the pressure of the nail being driven has a tendency to raise the
> MDF a bit around the point of entry of the nail. This means that you
> will have to sand down all the dimples with a sand paper wrapped block
> - kinda takes the fun out of air nailing.
>
> You can eliminate most of this by using a different technique than the
> usual "run and gun" of the average trim man. Make sure that your air
> nailer sits firmly on the piece for each shot and make sure that your
> depth adjustment is set properly. A test piece before you get into
> the real deal will help you get the right settings.
"Yc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:100420041339569801%[email protected]...
> Hi all
>
> Sorry for this variation of a frequantly asked question.
>
> I am installing homemade baseboards made from MDF. The part I have to
> nail through is 5/8 inch thick.
>
> I have a compressor. I planning on getting an air nailer. Question is:
>
> 1. 18G brad nailer or 16G finish nailer?
> 2. If I go with the 18G brad nailer, is 1.25 inch 18G brads enough or
> do I need 1.5 inch 18G brads?
> 3. Ditto, if I go with 16G finish nailer, what length nails?
>
>
I just installed a bunch of MDF base ans trim. For baseboard you will need a
15 or 16 guage nailer. The 18 guage does not have enough holding power. I
have both 18 and 16 guage nailers, and rarely use the 18 guage nailer. Use
the longest nails that fir the gun, two inch minimum when nailing through
base, drywall, and into studs. Longer will be better yet, but 2 inch will do
the job fine.
The MDF will raise up a bit when nailed, figure on sanding and finish
painting after installation.
If you use the niler for door trim nailing into wood you can get by with
shorter nails, seems to me I used 1-1/2 inch when nailing the trim into the
door frame, and back to 2 inch when nailing into the wall.
Greg
Yes, I did think of trim screws. But I think that unless I predrill
and countersink, the dimple/volcano would be huge and require a bit of
sanding to remove. If I have to do it manually, I think I would just
use a hammer.
Yc
Toronto
In article <[email protected]>, Unisaw A100
<[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm just wondering why no one has mentioned trim screws?
> You know, with the No. 0 square drive heads.
>
> UA100, who I guess just mentioned trim screws with the No. 0
> square drive heads...
Chris Melanson <[email protected]> wrote:
> When I
> interview a person for a job I am very particular in asking them if they are
> a cabinetmaker, machinemen or a benchmen for that reason.
Does your company have a website?
Chris Melanson <[email protected]> wrote:
> cabinetmaker
>
> \Cab"i*net*mak`er\ (-m[=a]k`[~e]r), n. One whose occupation is to make
> cabinets or other choice articles of household furniture, as tables,
> bedsteads, bureaus, etc.
>
> Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA,
> Inc.
>
>
> cabinetmaker
>
> n : An artisan specializing in making fine articles of wooden furniture.
You're picking and choosing your citation.
>
> Do you now see there is a difference and why I become insulted when refered
> to as a carpenter.
I've known some carpenters whose skill impressed me every day I worked
with them. They built MANY cabinets as that is a traditional task of
being a carpenter. Take a look at a complex curved stairway in a fine
old home. Could you do it?
Most cabinets nowadays are mediocre at best. Sure there are many above
average makers, perhaps a few of them hang out on the wreck, but most
stuff ain't worth puttin yourself on a pedestal. I've been in kitchens
that cost as much as the house I live in and when it gets down to it,
the cabs were just overdone mediocrity with gobs of hardware and trim.
>
> There is absolutly nothing wrong with practicing any occupation in this
> world as long as you enjoy what you do. I feel that is all that should
> matter.
Sounds like you thing that if they are mediocre tradesman but are happy,
all is good.
Jesus was a carpenter.....dunno if he made cabinets.
Mutt
[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Daniel <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> One thing I really get upset about is when somebody calls me a carpenter
> >> because to me a carpenter is 9 times out of 10 just a butcher and if they
> >> had to come any closer than 1/8th of an inch would be screwed.
> >
> >Yikes! I wonder how all the finish carpenters feel right about now...
> >
>
> Dont forget the Norwegian ones, in addition to the Finnish ones. <groan>
"Chris Melanson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<Ko1ec.7820$mn3.1678@clgrps13>...
> Tom thank you for reiterating my comments. I definitely did not mean to
> imply not to hit the studs by any means.I have been a journeyman
> cabinetmaker for 20 odd years and have owned my business for just about as
> long. I sometimes forget that you have to explain some basic methods. And
> that everyone is not a cabinetmaker.
> One thing I really get upset about is when somebody calls me a carpenter
> because to me a carpenter is 9 times out of 10 just a butcher and if they
> had to come any closer than 1/8th of an inch would be screwed.
> I am sure you have been called a carpenter in the past, while in fact
> you are a cabinetmaker and it bugs you just as much. To me the difference
> between being a Cabinetmaker and being a Carpenter is like the difference
> between driving a well tuned car and driving a V-8 missing on 4 cylinders. I
> was told once and still believe this saying "a cabinetmaker will always make
> an good carpenter but a carpenter will seldom make a good cabinetmaker."
>
> CHRIS
>
> Chris, you've insulted a lot of good carpenters buy you assinine remarks.I am a carpenter and proud of it. Many people think I am a cabinetmaker, I have my own shop and have done cabinet work on a small scale for 20 years.I have worked in several shops as well as installations of millwork,cabinets etc.
A good carpenter can frame, trim, concrete formwork( did a lot of that
too)sheetrock and can learn to do first class cabinetmaking.Most shops
pay their installers much more than their shop help, that should tell
you something.
My experience in 43 years of both trades is the two trades are similar
enough that each can learn to do the others.By the way , if you had to
ask which nail gun to use to install MDF you still have a long way to
go to be called a cabinetmaker or carpenter.
Mike
> "Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 13:39:56 -0400, Yc <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Hi all
> > >
> > >Sorry for this variation of a frequantly asked question.
> > >
> > >I am installing homemade baseboards made from MDF. The part I have to
> > >nail through is 5/8 inch thick.
> > >
> > >I have a compressor. I planning on getting an air nailer. Question is:
> > >
> > >1. 18G brad nailer or 16G finish nailer?
> > >2. If I go with the 18G brad nailer, is 1.25 inch 18G brads enough or
> > >do I need 1.5 inch 18G brads?
> > >3. Ditto, if I go with 16G finish nailer, what length nails?
> > >
> > >I have a C&H 3HP/4Gal compressor, and depending on the recommendations
> > >I get for nail size and length, I am favouring a Porter Cable or
> > >Paslode nailer. (Senco is harder to find here in Toronto.)
> > >
> >
> > If you are going through both the 5/8" base and 1/2" drywall, you will
> > want to pick up at least an inch of meat with the nail in the studs
> > and plates. The math says that means a 2-1/2" nail (because they
> > don't make 2-1/8" nails) but I've been happy with 2", expecting them
> > to set the extra 1/8" according to how I set up the gun.
> >
> > MDF has a habit of dimpling when it's power nailed. By that I mean
> > that the pressure of the nail being driven has a tendency to raise the
> > MDF a bit around the point of entry of the nail. This means that you
> > will have to sand down all the dimples with a sand paper wrapped block
> > - kinda takes the fun out of air nailing.
> >
> > You can eliminate most of this by using a different technique than the
> > usual "run and gun" of the average trim man. Make sure that your air
> > nailer sits firmly on the piece for each shot and make sure that your
> > depth adjustment is set properly. A test piece before you get into
> > the real deal will help you get the right settings.
> >
> > I favor the heavier gauge nail for this.
> >
> > BTW - I like "air nailers" but I don't like "air nails" by which I
> > mean that you should locate your studs and shoot into them, rather
> > than angling the nail into the rock, without regard to hitting the
> > stud. The job is going to hold up better if you do this. It is a too
> > common practice among trim carpenters to angle the nails in opposition
> > to each other, only grabbing the sheetrock (with or without goober
> > behind the trim). This is a bad practice.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret)
> > Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
> > Website: http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 21:26:56 -0500, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]> wrote:
>Chris Melanson wrote:
>>I was told once and still believe this saying "a cabinetmaker will always make
>>an good carpenter but a carpenter will seldom make a good cabinetmaker."
>
>Wow! That's a ton of horseshit packed down into a wee
>little bag there.
>
>UA100, who thinks that was a ton of horseshit packed down
>into a wee little bag there...
Yeah, it does smell a wee bit of condescension, doesn't it?
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA
That's exactly what I was thinking--nails and construction adhesive.
My father taught me (when I was a child) about angling two nails which
"locks" the hold. The adhesive makes less difference between the 18
and 16 gauge nails (I'd probably pick the 18G).
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:27:23 GMT, "Chris Melanson"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> For the base boards I would use a finish nailer with the longest nails
>available IE 2 inch and also angle your nails into the dry wall with some
>construction adhesive on the back because your walls will never be dead
>straight and the construction adhesive will help with any hold.
>
>CHRIS
>"Yc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:100420041339569801%[email protected]...
>> Hi all
>>
>> Sorry for this variation of a frequantly asked question.
>>
>> I am installing homemade baseboards made from MDF. The part I have to
>> nail through is 5/8 inch thick.
>>
>> I have a compressor. I planning on getting an air nailer. Question is:
>>
>> 1. 18G brad nailer or 16G finish nailer?
>> 2. If I go with the 18G brad nailer, is 1.25 inch 18G brads enough or
>> do I need 1.5 inch 18G brads?
>> 3. Ditto, if I go with 16G finish nailer, what length nails?
>>
>> I have a C&H 3HP/4Gal compressor, and depending on the recommendations
>> I get for nail size and length, I am favouring a Porter Cable or
>> Paslode nailer. (Senco is harder to find here in Toronto.)
>>
>> Thank.
>>
>> Yc
>> Toronto
>
Chris Melanson wrote:
> Is it possible you are not willing to learn something new??
Oh no. As a matter of fact I stated this in my sig line.
>> UA100, who always thought a large shop was 20 skilled
>> mechanics or more but is willing (always hoping) to be
>> taught something new...
By the way, in the lower 48, at least in the shops I have
been associated with, there is no greater honor than to be
called a "good mechanic". It has nothing to do with where
you demonstrate your skill, just that you do and can
demonstrate them.
UA100
Chris Melanson wrote:
>I was told once and still believe this saying "a cabinetmaker will always make
>an good carpenter but a carpenter will seldom make a good cabinetmaker."
Wow! That's a ton of horseshit packed down into a wee
little bag there.
UA100, who thinks that was a ton of horseshit packed down
into a wee little bag there...
cabinetmaker
\Cab"i*net*mak`er\ (-m[=a]k`[~e]r), n. One whose occupation is to make
cabinets or other choice articles of household furniture, as tables,
bedsteads, bureaus, etc.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA,
Inc.
cabinetmaker
n : An artisan specializing in making fine articles of wooden furniture.
Do you now see there is a difference and why I become insulted when refered
to as a carpenter.
There is absolutly nothing wrong with practicing any occupation in this
world as long as you enjoy what you do. I feel that is all that should
matter.
CHRIS
>
> > carpentry
> >
> > n : the craft of a carpenter: making things out of wood [syn:
woodworking,
> > woodwork]
> >
> >
> > Source: WordNet (R) 1.6, (C) 1997 Princeton University
>
> > car?pen?ter
> > P
> >
> > Pronunciation Key (k?rpn-tr)
> > n.
> >
> > A skilled worker who makes, finishes, and repairs wooden objects
and
> > structures.
>
> A hack is a hack regardless of his or her putative trade.
>
> Any craft can be practiced as an art.
>
> An artist is an artist.
> --
> Doors - Locks - Weatherstripping
> POB 250121 Atlanta GA 30325
> 404/626-2840
Well that is some thing I did not know I guess we both have learned someting
today thank you.
CHRIS
"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Chris Melanson wrote:
> > Is it possible you are not willing to learn something new??
>
>
> Oh no. As a matter of fact I stated this in my sig line.
>
> >> UA100, who always thought a large shop was 20 skilled
> >> mechanics or more but is willing (always hoping) to be
> >> taught something new...
>
> By the way, in the lower 48, at least in the shops I have
> been associated with, there is no greater honor than to be
> called a "good mechanic". It has nothing to do with where
> you demonstrate your skill, just that you do and can
> demonstrate them.
>
> UA100
Tom thank you for reiterating my comments. I definitely did not mean to
imply not to hit the studs by any means.I have been a journeyman
cabinetmaker for 20 odd years and have owned my business for just about as
long. I sometimes forget that you have to explain some basic methods. And
that everyone is not a cabinetmaker.
One thing I really get upset about is when somebody calls me a carpenter
because to me a carpenter is 9 times out of 10 just a butcher and if they
had to come any closer than 1/8th of an inch would be screwed.
I am sure you have been called a carpenter in the past, while in fact
you are a cabinetmaker and it bugs you just as much. To me the difference
between being a Cabinetmaker and being a Carpenter is like the difference
between driving a well tuned car and driving a V-8 missing on 4 cylinders. I
was told once and still believe this saying "a cabinetmaker will always make
an good carpenter but a carpenter will seldom make a good cabinetmaker."
CHRIS
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 13:39:56 -0400, Yc <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Hi all
> >
> >Sorry for this variation of a frequantly asked question.
> >
> >I am installing homemade baseboards made from MDF. The part I have to
> >nail through is 5/8 inch thick.
> >
> >I have a compressor. I planning on getting an air nailer. Question is:
> >
> >1. 18G brad nailer or 16G finish nailer?
> >2. If I go with the 18G brad nailer, is 1.25 inch 18G brads enough or
> >do I need 1.5 inch 18G brads?
> >3. Ditto, if I go with 16G finish nailer, what length nails?
> >
> >I have a C&H 3HP/4Gal compressor, and depending on the recommendations
> >I get for nail size and length, I am favouring a Porter Cable or
> >Paslode nailer. (Senco is harder to find here in Toronto.)
> >
>
> If you are going through both the 5/8" base and 1/2" drywall, you will
> want to pick up at least an inch of meat with the nail in the studs
> and plates. The math says that means a 2-1/2" nail (because they
> don't make 2-1/8" nails) but I've been happy with 2", expecting them
> to set the extra 1/8" according to how I set up the gun.
>
> MDF has a habit of dimpling when it's power nailed. By that I mean
> that the pressure of the nail being driven has a tendency to raise the
> MDF a bit around the point of entry of the nail. This means that you
> will have to sand down all the dimples with a sand paper wrapped block
> - kinda takes the fun out of air nailing.
>
> You can eliminate most of this by using a different technique than the
> usual "run and gun" of the average trim man. Make sure that your air
> nailer sits firmly on the piece for each shot and make sure that your
> depth adjustment is set properly. A test piece before you get into
> the real deal will help you get the right settings.
>
> I favor the heavier gauge nail for this.
>
> BTW - I like "air nailers" but I don't like "air nails" by which I
> mean that you should locate your studs and shoot into them, rather
> than angling the nail into the rock, without regard to hitting the
> stud. The job is going to hold up better if you do this. It is a too
> common practice among trim carpenters to angle the nails in opposition
> to each other, only grabbing the sheetrock (with or without goober
> behind the trim). This is a bad practice.
>
>
>
> Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret)
> Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
> Website: http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
Such joinery is why the "shrine carpenter" (mira daika) is a profession
separate from conventional house carpenter.
The joinery (sashmono) of fine cabinetry and of furniture are also separate
professions.
Both are very impresive methods well worth the mention.
CHRIS
"Daniel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > Carpenters from what I have seen are typically used to using
> > some sort of mechanical fastener (IE nails, brads or screws) While
> > cabinetmakers use joinery (IE mortise and tennon, dove tails, spline
joints)
> > as a means of joining parts.
>
> I picked up a book on Japanese Joinery in my local public library
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/088179001X/
> and these home framing joints are absolutely impressive. I believe this
> is the current edition of the same book:
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0881791210/
>
> Take a look at some of the drawings and they will likely make any
> cabinetmaker/furnituremaker cringe.
>
First of all it is machine or machinist not "mechanics"as you stated.
For a large shop to have 20 or more machinist you would have to have at
least 150 or more bench men to support that many machinist and personally I
do not know of any millwork shop that has that many people on the floor. I
do know of a few and very few production shops that have that many people on
the floor. And what I mean by production shops is either kitchen cabinet
manufactures or kd furniture manufactures.Where people are basically robots
doing repetitious tasks all day and are generally not skilled trades people
Second of all I am not trying to dictate the conventions of a large
shop.
Here in British Columbia if you call yourself a millworker you work in a
lumbermill.
But in a millwork shop you have cabinetmakers, machine men and bench
men. That work on the floor and produce millwork.
Is it possible you are not willing to learn something new??
CHRIS
"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Chris Melanson wrote:
> > In a large shop environment....
>
>
>
> Chris, Can you explain how you are able to dictate the
> conventions of a large shop? What I'm meaning to find out
> is, is it possible that a large shop where you operate from
> doesn't quite have the same set of conventions as a large
> shop somewhere else?
>
> UA100, who always thought a large shop was 20 skilled
> mechanics or more but is willing (always hoping) to be
> taught something new...
"Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Yc <[email protected]> wrote in news:100420041339569801%
> [email protected]:
>
> > I have a C&H 3HP/4Gal compressor
>
> I'm planning to get a compressor as well, among other things for nailing.
> What's a C&H?
>
> Best regards
> Han
Probably Campbell Hausfeld...I have a 4HP/13Gal, very low cost unit used
almost daily & has never given me a seconds problem in about ten years set
between 90 & 120PSI at the most.
I am also a director & coach for our youth soccer club & use mine to inflate
over 1000 soccer balls every April....great time saver, we hook up six
inflator nozzles & hoses to a gang connection at once & away we go.
--
© Jon Down ®
My eBay items currently listed:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=lamblies&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25
Mike If you had taken the time to read the original post you would see I
did not ask how to install base boards. You have more than proven my point
about attention to detail that most carpenters display in there
cabinetmaking skills.
Over the years I have hired many journeyman carpenters and I generally
find they are capable of building kitchen cabinets or square boxes. but you
give them a chair or any thing that involves any type of complicated curve,
inlay or veneering and most are incapable of completing the job at all or
within any type of time line to be called acceptable.
I have also meet people who call themselves cabinetmakers that fall into
the same group. I any trade now days you have to almost be a specialist in
that particular field. Maybe the skill level of the new generation of
"skilled workers" is just not what it used to be.
If I was a carpenter I would also be insulted by being called a
cabinetmaker especially by a fellow tradesman who in my opinion should be
more that informed about the differences between the two trades.
There are more than a few people out there who are jack of all trades
and master of now . That at whatever particular job they are doing at that
time are all of a sudden a qualified Framer, finisher, former, installer,
drywaller carpenter cabinetmaker or any of a dozen other trades. To me these
are handy men with jobs not tradesmen.
In any trade you need to have particular knowledge of that trade that is
learned over decades of hands on work to wear that particular title. Not by
working the job for a year hear and another for a while and then calling
themselves qualified. What they should be saying is that they have some
knowledge of whatever job they have been doing not calling themselves
tradesmen but jacks of all trades instead.
At one time I myself tried to do it all on a job site and was capable
of getting the job done. But have learned that you have to hire properly
trained and qualified tradesmen to do particular aspects of a job first of
all to get the job done right and also on time.
CHRIS
Yc <[email protected]> wrote in news:100420041339569801%
[email protected]:
> I have a C&H 3HP/4Gal compressor
I'm planning to get a compressor as well, among other things for nailing.
What's a C&H?
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
"P©WÉ®T©©LMAN ²ºº4"
<[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Probably Campbell Hausfeld...I have a 4HP/13Gal, very low cost unit
> used almost daily & has never given me a seconds problem in about ten
> years set between 90 & 120PSI at the most.
>
Thanks Jon, and Art
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Yc <[email protected]> wrote in
news:100420042224084989%[email protected]:
> In article <[email protected]>, Han
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I'm planning to get a compressor as well, among other things for
>> nailing. What's a C&H?
>
> Sorry Han,
>
> I meant Campbell Hausfeld. The model I have gives me 6.2 cfm at 90
> psi. Overkill for a single person slowly installing baseboards. I
> use it mainly for blowing out my lawn sprinkle system in the fall.
> For that task, it has barely enough power. E-mail me directly if you
> want to know more about that.
>
> Yc
> Toronto
Thanks Yc, for the info. I have no garden sprinkler system yet for my 90
by 40 (feet) property, although my wife installed a soaker hose system
(the garden is hers, I have the basem^H^H^H^^H^Hworkshop).
I may have a need for a compressor for basic finish nailing and odds and
ends, althoug I also may get into spray finishing eventually. So I am
gathering info ...
If anyone cares to (again) give opinions about spray finishing equipment
for a rank amateur who will only be doing this very occasionally, I'll be
happy to receive any info (links especially appreciated).
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
In article <[email protected]>,
Daniel <[email protected]> wrote:
>> One thing I really get upset about is when somebody calls me a carpenter
>> because to me a carpenter is 9 times out of 10 just a butcher and if they
>> had to come any closer than 1/8th of an inch would be screwed.
>
>Yikes! I wonder how all the finish carpenters feel right about now...
>
Dont forget the Norwegian ones, in addition to the Finnish ones. <groan>
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 01:43:06 GMT, "Chris Melanson"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> One thing I really get upset about is when somebody calls me a carpenter
>because to me a carpenter is 9 times out of 10 just a butcher and if they
>had to come any closer than 1/8th of an inch would be screwed.
> I am sure you have been called a carpenter in the past, while in fact
>you are a cabinetmaker and it bugs you just as much. To me the difference
>between being a Cabinetmaker and being a Carpenter is like the difference
>between driving a well tuned car and driving a V-8 missing on 4 cylinders. I
>was told once and still believe this saying "a cabinetmaker will always make
>an good carpenter but a carpenter will seldom make a good cabinetmaker."
>
>CHRIS
Yer' wearin' a gasoline suit to a weeny roast, bubba.
If the fans of the Carpenter of Nazareth leave any meat on yer bones,
those of the Carpenter of Boston most certainly will not.
(watson - who thinks that signing such a thing with the name CHRIS is
priceless)
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret)
Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
Website: http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
That might be the problem LOL
CHRIS
"MN Guy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Chris Melanson:
> I was told once and still believe this saying "a cabinetmaker will
> always make a good carpenter but a carpenter will seldom make a good
> cabinetmaker."
>
>
> Perhaps only union carpenters.
> Carpenters from what I have seen are typically used to using
> some sort of mechanical fastener (IE nails, brads or screws) While
> cabinetmakers use joinery (IE mortise and tennon, dove tails, spline joints)
> as a means of joining parts.
I picked up a book on Japanese Joinery in my local public library
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/088179001X/
and these home framing joints are absolutely impressive. I believe this
is the current edition of the same book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0881791210/
Take a look at some of the drawings and they will likely make any
cabinetmaker/furnituremaker cringe.
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 16:23:23 GMT, "Chris Melanson"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> I am glad to see you do know the difference in the trades. the only
>thing I would disagree with is in a shop environment you generally have
>A journeyman cabinetmaker that will over see an entire job from start to
>finish. A machinemen who run the machines and make the parts. A benchmen who
>assemble the product with all the hardware and prep it for finishing.
> Not cabinetmakers assembling product. A cabinetmaker should be able to
>work any where on the shop all the way to the finishing department.When I
>interview a person for a job I am very particular in asking them if they are
>a cabinetmaker, machinemen or a benchmen for that reason.
>
>CHRIS
>
I liked being a cabinetmaker and I tried to be a good one.
I liked being a carpenter and I tried to be a good one.
I've worked in a few environments where I was exposed to good
craftsmen of both types.
But I've met framing carpenters who knew more plane geometry, in an
applied sense, than any architect or designer, or cabinetmaker, that
I've ever met.
I've met pattern makers who made my balls sweat, with watching how
precisely they could do their work.
I've met model makers who made parts that were so small that I could
barely see them, let alone make them. (they be like nanocarpenters).
Hell, I've seen concrete form carpenters, using old-fashioned whalers
and ties, that knew exactly how to place their sticks so that dams
could be monopoured.
I was a bench man for a while - and I was a machine man for a while -
and I was a cabinetmaker for a while - but I never thought that having
any of those specific tasks entitled me to look up or down my nose at
anyone.
I once worked with a journeyman who had gone through the
cabinetmaker's apprentice system in Germany, supposed to be one of the
most difficult trade paths to go through.
He knew a lot and he had good hands - but he was lazy - and that kept
him from being "a good mechanic" - and if you are not a good mechanic
- everything else is secondary.
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret)
Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
Website: http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
I find that my 18ga just doesn't have enough holding power for
me when attaching baseboard or window molding, so I'd
reccommend a 15 or 16 ga nailer.
As for nail length (assuming you have 1/2" wall board) a 1-1/2"
nail will only give you 3/8" penetration into the 2x4 at the base
of the wall. I'd go with at least a 1-3/4" nail.
Art
ps Han: C&H = Campbell Hausfeld
"Yc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:100420041339569801%[email protected]...
> Hi all
>
> Sorry for this variation of a frequantly asked question.
>
> I am installing homemade baseboards made from MDF. The part I have to
> nail through is 5/8 inch thick.
>
> I have a compressor. I planning on getting an air nailer. Question is:
>
> 1. 18G brad nailer or 16G finish nailer?
> 2. If I go with the 18G brad nailer, is 1.25 inch 18G brads enough or
> do I need 1.5 inch 18G brads?
> 3. Ditto, if I go with 16G finish nailer, what length nails?
>
> I have a C&H 3HP/4Gal compressor, and depending on the recommendations
> I get for nail size and length, I am favouring a Porter Cable or
> Paslode nailer. (Senco is harder to find here in Toronto.)
>
> Thank.
>
> Yc
> Toronto
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 13:39:56 -0400, Yc <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Hi all
>
>Sorry for this variation of a frequantly asked question.
>
>I am installing homemade baseboards made from MDF. The part I have to
>nail through is 5/8 inch thick.
>
>I have a compressor. I planning on getting an air nailer. Question is:
>
>1. 18G brad nailer or 16G finish nailer?
>2. If I go with the 18G brad nailer, is 1.25 inch 18G brads enough or
>do I need 1.5 inch 18G brads?
>3. Ditto, if I go with 16G finish nailer, what length nails?
>
>I have a C&H 3HP/4Gal compressor, and depending on the recommendations
>I get for nail size and length, I am favouring a Porter Cable or
>Paslode nailer. (Senco is harder to find here in Toronto.)
>
If you are going through both the 5/8" base and 1/2" drywall, you will
want to pick up at least an inch of meat with the nail in the studs
and plates. The math says that means a 2-1/2" nail (because they
don't make 2-1/8" nails) but I've been happy with 2", expecting them
to set the extra 1/8" according to how I set up the gun.
MDF has a habit of dimpling when it's power nailed. By that I mean
that the pressure of the nail being driven has a tendency to raise the
MDF a bit around the point of entry of the nail. This means that you
will have to sand down all the dimples with a sand paper wrapped block
- kinda takes the fun out of air nailing.
You can eliminate most of this by using a different technique than the
usual "run and gun" of the average trim man. Make sure that your air
nailer sits firmly on the piece for each shot and make sure that your
depth adjustment is set properly. A test piece before you get into
the real deal will help you get the right settings.
I favor the heavier gauge nail for this.
BTW - I like "air nailers" but I don't like "air nails" by which I
mean that you should locate your studs and shoot into them, rather
than angling the nail into the rock, without regard to hitting the
stud. The job is going to hold up better if you do this. It is a too
common practice among trim carpenters to angle the nails in opposition
to each other, only grabbing the sheetrock (with or without goober
behind the trim). This is a bad practice.
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret)
Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
Website: http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
Yc wrote:
>Yes, I did think of trim screws. But I think that unless I predrill
>and countersink, the dimple/volcano would be huge and require a bit of
>sanding to remove. If I have to do it manually, I think I would just
>use a hammer.
Ditto what you said but I'd keep a handful on hand just
incase the Nancy nails won't cut it.
By the way, in old wooddorking machinery restoration the
dimple/volcano is referred to as a Vesuvius. A Vesuvius or
two can sometimes be quite helpful for parts requiring a
press fit.
UA100
Not at this time but I have been thinking about having one developed. I
generally work with a group of large contractors and interior designers and
have not found a need to have a web site to generate business. I do not do
any residential work just commercial and food service work.
If you know of any good web site designers please forward there URL.
CHRIS
"p_j" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1gc3ez5.tyvzv7167pmeN%[email protected]...
> Chris Melanson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > When I
> > interview a person for a job I am very particular in asking them if they
are
> > a cabinetmaker, machinemen or a benchmen for that reason.
>
> Does your company have a website?
Chris Melanson:
>>>I was told once and still believe this saying "a cabinetmaker will always make
>>>an good carpenter but a carpenter will seldom make a good cabinetmaker."
UA100:
>>Wow! That's a ton of horseshit packed down into a wee
>>little bag there.
Tom Veatch:
>Yeah, it does smell a wee bit of condescension, doesn't it?
Condescending? Yes. I also think it's shows a limited
knowledge of the world around us. Comparing cabinetmakers
to carpenters is like asking, what's more important, your
car's engine or the wheels?
In my business (architectural wooddorking/commercial
wooddorking) we deal with several disciplines of the
woodworking community.
Millworkers:
These guys are charged with taking raw stock and forming it
into the shapes required up stream to build and assemble a
final product. They are the ones who operate the straight
line rip saws, the jointers, the planers, the molders and
CNC routers. Their product ends up on a cart, in stacks and
then gets pushed up to the next area. I've seen these guys
put out crown moldings formed to an ellipse that I wouldn't
attempt in a cajillion years.
Cabinetmakers:
These are the guys who sort through the cart, find all the
parts 'n pieces and make the final cuts/shapes that allow
them to assemble the parts 'n pieces into a wonderment of
wooddorking. I have a picture of some work they've done for
a local opera house that would make your (and my) sphincter
pucker.
Finishers:
These are the stainers and top coaters who take the wood
assemblies from being "in the white" to a finished (as of
this point) product. If you ever wondered, can a finish
free of boogers and runs ever be accomplished, the answer
is, yes and it's done daily. These guys also have to be
competent in all manner of finishing product which if you
haven't noticed requires a back ground in chemistry.
Carpenters:
These are the guys on site who take the final product and
put it into place where the architect designed it/client
needs it. These are the guys who put up the sphincter
puckering opera house work and when they were done the seams
all blended into the next and the gaps were all closed.
Most of the time (OK, all the time) these guys work under
horrific conditions compared to those back in the shop. I
would go so far to say that most of the guys from the shop
(the cabinetmakers) would wet themselves if they had to work
under these conditions for an extended period of time.
I could tell you horror stories about each of these groups
and I'm sure they could/would dis on me too with equal
bravado. The point is, each does a job and there's not a
one that I would go up against and compare my worth to or
consider that I could replace.
Now before anyone jumps in and qualifies their argument
with, "Yah-but, rough carpenters, those are the guys with
their brains bashed in", we've had a couple of projects here
in town over the last couple of years that prove otherwise.
One was a new printing facility for the local newspaper.
The most impressive room in the place was a Concrete Clad
Cathedral for the newspaper's printing presses. From one
end to the next the span was something like 300 feet (a
hunnert yards). This room was to house some cutting edge
European printing presses with some extremely high
tolerances for level and plumb. The rough carpenters laid
out the floor and formed for the concrete pour several pits
that the presses were to fit in. When the pour was done the
variance over the 300 feet was a thirty second of an inch.
That's the distance between the two first marks on your tape
measure cut into two only they did it over the length of a
football (Murican style) field.
Not bad for the bottom feeders on the totem ehh?
UA100, thinking, time to get real here, ehh?...
Tom I agree that in each trade you will fine some people that
excel in there respective fields and that are capable of carrying there
skills into other fields.
I am not trying to look down my nose at any trade. I actually
have great respect for qualified trades men in any trade.
What I did try and say was that the accuracy and consistency of
a carpenter trying to do a cabinetmaker's (mechanic in the states) job is
nine out of ten times not there. (It seems what you call a cabinetmaker in
the states is what is referred to a benchman here. In Canada a mechanic is
generally referred to as some one that works on cars)
Carpenters from what I have seen are typically used to using
some sort of mechanical fastener (IE nails, brads or screws) While
cabinetmakers use joinery (IE mortise and tennon, dove tails, spline joints)
as a means of joining parts.
I would like to see some one take 5 carpenters and 5
cabinetmakers and have each group do a carpentry job and then a piece of
furniture.
I bet that each trades man would be faster at there respective
trade than the other. But if you looked at the overall accuracy and
consistency of the two jobs from the two trades you probably find that the
cabinetmakers would excel beyond the carpenters in this particular area.
I should state that in the millwork trade it is commonly
accepted to use hidden mechanical fasteners for reasons of production speed.
Before someone jumps down my through about that.
CHRIS
In a large shop environment. A bench man is the person that dose the
final cut and assembly on a bench as the title implies not a cabinetmaker as
you understand it. A cabinetmaker is the one who is responsible for the
layout, cutlist and quality control and to work along side each group of
tradesmen designating the requirements for each to achieve.
In a small shop a cabinetmaker will layout.machine, cut and assemble or
in other words is capable of performing all of the fore mentioned
occupations jobs.
So you have not taught me anything as you had hoped.
CHRIS
"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Chris Melanson wrote:
> > I am glad to see you do know the difference in the trades.
>
>
> And I hope I've taught you something.
>
> UA100
"Chris Melanson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:AU3ec.33517$Sh4.5794@edtnps84...
>
> Do you now see there is a difference and why I become insulted when
refered
> to as a carpenter.
I would only think you should be insulted if you yourself were a lousy
carpenter. If you were a good carpenter there would not be any reason to be
ashamed or insulted.
For the base boards I would use a finish nailer with the longest nails
available IE 2 inch and also angle your nails into the dry wall with some
construction adhesive on the back because your walls will never be dead
straight and the construction adhesive will help with any hold.
CHRIS
"Yc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:100420041339569801%[email protected]...
> Hi all
>
> Sorry for this variation of a frequantly asked question.
>
> I am installing homemade baseboards made from MDF. The part I have to
> nail through is 5/8 inch thick.
>
> I have a compressor. I planning on getting an air nailer. Question is:
>
> 1. 18G brad nailer or 16G finish nailer?
> 2. If I go with the 18G brad nailer, is 1.25 inch 18G brads enough or
> do I need 1.5 inch 18G brads?
> 3. Ditto, if I go with 16G finish nailer, what length nails?
>
> I have a C&H 3HP/4Gal compressor, and depending on the recommendations
> I get for nail size and length, I am favouring a Porter Cable or
> Paslode nailer. (Senco is harder to find here in Toronto.)
>
> Thank.
>
> Yc
> Toronto
In article
<[email protected]>,
Daniel <[email protected]> wrote:
> > One thing I really get upset about is when somebody calls me a carpenter
> > because to me a carpenter is 9 times out of 10 just a butcher and if they
> > had to come any closer than 1/8th of an inch would be screwed.
>
> Yikes! I wonder how all the finish carpenters feel right about now...
>
There just may be nine times the need for rough carpenters as finish
carpenters?
> carpentry
>
> n : the craft of a carpenter: making things out of wood [syn: woodworking,
> woodwork]
>
>
> Source: WordNet (R) 1.6, (C) 1997 Princeton University
> car?pen?ter
> P
>
> Pronunciation Key (k?rpn-tr)
> n.
>
> A skilled worker who makes, finishes, and repairs wooden objects and
> structures.
A hack is a hack regardless of his or her putative trade.
Any craft can be practiced as an art.
An artist is an artist.
--
Doors - Locks - Weatherstripping
POB 250121 Atlanta GA 30325
404/626-2840
In article <AU3ec.33517$Sh4.5794@edtnps84>,
"Chris Melanson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> cabinetmaker
>
> \Cab"i*net*mak`er\ (-m[=a]k`[~e]r), n. One whose occupation is to make
> cabinets or other choice articles of household furniture, as tables,
> bedsteads, bureaus, etc.
>
> Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA,
> Inc.
>
>
> cabinetmaker
>
> n : An artisan specializing in making fine articles of wooden furniture.
>
> Do you now see there is a difference and why I become insulted when refered
> to as a carpenter.
Inadequacy is no excuse for false pride.
A complete carpenter does it all...from foundation layout and digging
footers, to roofing and gutters...and everything in between...including
cabinets.
"How well one's house is built is simply a function of the carpenter who
built it."
"First man on the job...last man off."
"Carpentry is the King of the Trades."
"Everybody doing something else is just someone who couldn't make it as
a carpenter."
"A good carpenter does it by himself."
> Woodworking, Cabinet-making, and Furniture-making at SUNY Delhi
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
is a subset
^^^^^^
of the Carpentry and Building Trades Associate Degree.
^^^^^^^^^
http://techdivision.delhi.edu/Cabinetmaking/Cabinetfield.htm
Carpentry is almost infinitely more dangerous and demanding than shop or
studio craft. It requires physical agility and strength; mental
flexibility, resourcefulness, precision, accuracy, and imagination; and
boldness for untested solutions in often precarious circumstances.
A great carpenter is a warrior of wood (and masonry, and metal) often
wearing and carrying dozens of pounds of lethal tools up ladders and
roofs doing battle to acheive functional and aesthetic (human)
perfection that will protect dwellings and their inhabitants almost
forever...then turning around and building elegant site-built bookcases
and cabinets, windows and doors, and, if need be...a stick or two of
furniture.
To be mistaken for a carpenter speaks well of you and the generosity of
others.
Wisdom would have you take it as a compliment.
--
Doors - Locks - Weatherstripping
POB 250121 Atlanta GA 30325
404/626-2840