Cut List software?

In article <[email protected]>, codepath
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Sounds like you are one of those Microsoft-haters. You would hate MS no
> matter what we did. What a clichŽ! You get all loud screaming "Microsoft
> sucks" while running Windows. What a hypocrite! Say one thing, do another.
>
> Must be a Republican.

Must be a Windows user... Who better to yell "Windows sucks" than
someone familiar with the OS?

<d&r>

--
Okay, so this is my new sig line, eh?

In article
<pmkierst-05D0A5.17091007042004@nntp.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
Paul Kierstead <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> "codepath" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > But, down here in the trenches, we developers really do try to create the
> > best software possible. No developer here would knowingly release defective
> > code. Period.
>
> LOL. Riiiight. You think everyone fixes _every_ known bug before
> shipping? Most software would never ship.

That's what the Marketing Department is for.

--
Okay, so this is my new sig line, eh?

In article <[email protected]>, codepath
<[email protected]> wrote:

> If it sucks so bad, then why continue using it? There are alternatives.

Depends on the environment, and what the IT department dictates.

Personally, I use a Mac.

I have an XP box I'm setting up, but only because our school board has
dictated that's what my children must use. If I had a choice in that, I
wouldn't bother... And I'd rather not see my tax dollars going to
Microsoft.

But I'm not one who goes around yelling "Windows sucks"...

djb

--
Okay, so this is my new sig line, eh?

In article <[email protected]>, Mark &
Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ah yes, the infamous, "Microsoft freedom to innovate" which typically
> means "freedom to deviate from the standard into our own proprietary
> format". Which translates into software and data that is only readable
> using a Microsoft product, and, since Msoft has such a share of the
> market to force the adoption of the Msoft product by just about
> everybody in order to be able to access the data they need.

Y'know, reading this thread I get a picture right out of Pinnochio...

Innocent young programmers lured to "Redmond Island" where they have a
wonderful time until they realize they're turning into jackasses and
there's nothing they can do about it.

djb

--
Okay, so this is my new sig line, eh?

"Shrikanth S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello,
> You may also like ot have a look at our PLUS 2D software.
> The light version should be sufficient for rectangular parts.
> A demo is available from the downloadcenter at www.nirvanatec.com
> s.shrikanth
> Nirvana Technologies


I don't think too many woodworkers could spend $400 on this type program.

Neal

Hi Keith,
I use "Cut List Plus" silver edition ( I think) and am happy with it. I have
received two free upgrades since I originally purchased it. They have a free
trial version as well. Cheers, JG

http://cutlistplus.com/

Keith wrote:

> Does anyone have any recommendations on "cut list" software? (i.e., I need N
> pieces at A x B, what's the best way to cut them from a 4x8 sheet, etc)
>
> --
> Keith

I won't even try your software.

I will NOT download and run and executable (.EXE file) just to see screen
shots of your product (and no one else should EVER do that either).

That was a horrible idea. Just put them in a web page to view them online.
Unless there is some reason that you are making it difficult for potential
customers to simply get a look at your product. If your product has any
merit and you are not ashamed to show it off, you will put your screen shots
on your web site.

So, in case I was vague in my opinion, you should NEVER, EVER, NOT ONE
SINGLE TIME, download and run ANY executable unless ABSOLUTELY necessary!!!
ESPECIALLY from a company that you have NEVER HEARD OF BEFORE!!

Downloading and using software from a reputable vendor is an acceptable
risk.

Downloading and running a potentially harmful executable file just for the
simple pleasure of being able to see what the eventual software even looks
like and before deciding if it is right for you and then downloading and
running the software, especially in this case being that the vendor is
completely unknown and half way around the globe, DOES NOT QUALIFY!!

Even if you have good intentions, who knows if your server has been infected
by a virus without your knowledge. Any server can be hit with a virus. So,
everyone should have the automatic attitude to not trust any download from
any company. Especially an unknown company. Major software companies
(Microsoft, IBM, Apple, etc) have money and resources to mitigate these
issues. Still, I quarantine and scan EVERYTHING I download. And I only
download from companies that I trust. Since I do not know NirvanaTec, it is
just not worth the risk.

Okay, my meds are starting to kick in now. Losing interest in this topic.

Oh, look. A butterfly....


codepath




"Shrikanth S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello,
> You may also like ot have a look at our PLUS 2D software.
> The light version should be sufficient for rectangular parts.
> A demo is available from the downloadcenter at www.nirvanatec.com
> s.shrikanth
> Nirvana Technologies

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Now, I'm looking at the samples on the register page:
>
> http://cutlistplus.com/register.aspx
>
> There's no way you're going to cut sample #1 or #2 with a table saw. Do
> these cutlist programs presume that you're going to use a saber saw to
> cut out the pieces? Even sample #3 looks a little "iffy"...

With CutList you can specify whether you prefer rip or cross cuts, which
will result in radically different layouts for some projects.

--
Charles Jones -- Loveland, Colorado
ICQ: 29610755
AIM: LovelandCharles
Y!M: charlesjonesathpcom
MSN: [email protected]

It only took me about 5 minutes to find the registration code on the
internet.............

Charles Jones wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>
>>Now, I'm looking at the samples on the register page:
>>
>> http://cutlistplus.com/register.aspx
>>
>>There's no way you're going to cut sample #1 or #2 with a table saw. Do
>>these cutlist programs presume that you're going to use a saber saw to
>>cut out the pieces? Even sample #3 looks a little "iffy"...
>
>
> With CutList you can specify whether you prefer rip or cross cuts, which
> will result in radically different layouts for some projects.
>

Insurance will cover the loss.

Sprog wrote:
>
> You probably will not object then when someone comes and STEALS your property.
>
>
> Mapdude <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>It only took me about 5 minutes to find the registration code on the
>>internet.............
>>
>

"Danny Boy" <[email protected]> blathered...
> In any event, it's just a glorified spreadsheet.

I didn't know that it's a spreadsheet because I didn't download it to find
out. It was in a ZIP file.

> You could make up your own if you knew anything about computers.

I could make my own. I can handle data from any source. Spreadsheet,
database, XML, you name it. If it's data, I can access it, parse it, chop it
up 50 different ways and spew it back at you.

You made an incorrect assumption about my knowledge of computers.

Not only were you wrong, you were loud and wrong.

I have been in the computer industry for over 15 years myself. The last 8 at
Microsoft as a developer. You may not like Microsoft's business practices or
some of the management-level decisions regarding our products, but I believe
that most people in the industry would agree that as developers, we ain't
too shabby.

> Further: You can get a freeware full office suite including a great
spreadsheet from Open Office Org.

Don't need it, thanks for offering. I've got real software.

> ...and I don't use Norton, just common sense and a quarter century of
experience with computers.

Not using any sort of anti-virus software (which your statement implied) is
like playing Russian Roulette. With your experience, you should know that a
virus can strike anyone, anytime, anywhere. Does "Code Red" or "Melissa"
ring a bell. I even heard recently that there is a new virus that gets
imbedded into JPG files. If that is true (I have not confirmed it), then all
of the Internet is vulnerable. All you'd have to do is go to the web site.
You wouldn't even have to download anything. Or just one piece of spam gets
thru you filters and boom.

I never said that this company (NirvanaTec) was in any way being malicious
or less than honest. I simply said that, as users, we should perform our due
diligence in trying to mitigate the "potential" threat. I have no way of
knowing if NirvanaTec's web host implements good security practices.

I do think that, as a company, as much information as possible (i.e. screen
shots, etc) should be available on their web site in order for customers to
determine if a product is meets their needs before ever having to download a
single file. Just good practice. Saves bandwidth (which a lot of web host
charge for), saves customer time (don't have to download, install, evaluate,
uninstall, etc), and it reduce the possibility for virus exchange (good for
all parties).

Security issues on the Internet have been sorely lacking for a long time. As
the honeymoon is over, it's time for everyone to do their part to correct
this.

Businesses (large and small) need to consider good security practices to be
a value-add for whatever product or service they provide.

Consumers need to realize that their data and identity are at risk with
every mouse click and do what they can by installing and using anti-virus
software in addition to firewall/anti-intrusion software.

This is not war people. To win this, everyone must support it. And everyone
must participate.

I am here at Microsoft, doing my part to fix security issues in my product
and to keep others motivated to do the same.

So, going to a website (suggested out of the blue by someone you have never
heard of before) to download and run software from a unknown company is
perfectly safe, eh? Was your "quarter century of experience" in sales or
marketing?

Thought so. Pity.

I'd love to stay and make you cry some more. but I gotta go. Someone brought
in Krispy Kremes.


codepath

In rec.woodworking
Mapdude <[email protected]> wrote:

>Insurance will cover the loss.
>
>Sprog wrote:
>>
>> You probably will not object then when someone comes and STEALS your property.
>>
>>
>> Mapdude <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>It only took me about 5 minutes to find the registration code on the
>>>internet.............

You're a slimy dirtbag mapscum. There is no insurance to cover what you're
stealing from a guy that devoted countless hours to writing an excellent
program. I hope you choke on the $30.00 you saved cheapskate.

No dickwad. You can't fully evaluate crippled software. IF I download
it to try it, I uncripple it. If I like it, I will buy it. Pure and simple.

Keep your pious high and mighty virtue bullshit for some one who gives a
shit about YOUR OPINIONS.

how is it that proverb goes? Let those who are without sin cast the
first stone.......



Bruce wrote:

>
> You're a slimy dirtbag mapscum. There is no insurance to cover what you're
> stealing from a guy that devoted countless hours to writing an excellent
> program. I hope you choke on the $30.00 you saved cheapskate.

It's a fact of life cowboy.

Money tight in your household? Thats too bad.

Perhaps on your next trip through this world, you'll get a better hand
of cards to play with......


>
> Then you won't object to your higher insurance premiums to cover more
> theft by other assholes.
>
> Dan.
>

"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> dribbled...
> Oh my! Since JPEG files aren't ever executed, this would indicate
> that at least /one/ vendor's JPEG decoder fails to check for
> improperly or maliciously formatted image files, which failure
> exposes all of their customers to whatever damage any virus
> hacker might choose to inflict.

Have not been able to confirm this virus. I only heard a small mention of it
on the local news but I missed the name of it. In any case, have you any
idea how many JPEG decaoders there are out there? We do not own all of them.
And once an issue has been discovered, fixes are made available ASAP. If
people choose not to install them, oh well. The fix for the vulnerability
the CodeRed exploited was available for download nearly a full year before
CodeRed hit.

The reason that so many issues are discovered with Windows is that it has a
larger footprint. It's a more juicy target for the fools that create
viruses. Tons of Linux bugs and security issues are disovered all the time,
but they just don't make the news. Doesn't mean that they are not there.

> Hmm. I wonder which software producer would be so careless of
> quality and so unconcerned with the welfare of their customers?

Anyone who thinks that bugs and security vulnerabilities are consiously and
deliberately release is a fool. Microsoft is very pro-active to correct
issues once discovered.

All software has bugs. Period. Bug-free software is as much of a reality as
unicorns, hobbits, and Iraqi WMDs.

I would guess (don't have actual staistics) that Microsoft expends as much
or more man-hours testing it's software prior to release than any other
software company (or damned close to it). Why do you think that there are
delays in product release (especially the next versions of Visual Studio,
SQL Server, and Windows)? It's because we are being very careful in dealing
with security issues and pumping in tons of testing resources.

> How could I possibly not have known! I suppose this means I'll
> have to install Linux on this (SWMBO's) machine, too...

Install whatever you want. Free country. If Linux makes you happy, well,
good for you.

Don't get me wrong. I know that Windows has issues. I agree that some of
Microsoft's business practices are lame.

But, down here in the trenches, we developers really do try to create the
best software possible. No developer here would knowingly release defective
code. Period.

Sounds like you are one of those Microsoft-haters. You would hate MS no
matter what we did. What a cliché! You get all loud screaming "Microsoft
sucks" while running Windows. What a hypocrite! Say one thing, do another.

Must be a Republican.



codepath

Sorry, I may have misspoken. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
Allow me to clarify.

By "defective code", I meant critically defective (bugs resulting in any
sort of crash, hang, data loss, memory mis-allocation, etc) or known
security vulnerability.

I did not mean all bugs, which is why I also said, "All software has bugs.
Period. Bug-free software is as much of a reality as unicorns, hobbits, and
Iraqi WMDs.". It is obviously not practical (not to mention even possible)
to fix _every_ bug.

What I meant was that no developer that I know of would ever knowingly ship
with a critical bug or known exploitable security issue. All production on
the next version of Windows completely stop for months until every developer
at Microsoft took a course in writing secure code and then every single line
of code was scrutinized with special attention paid to "buffer
overruns/overflows" (a majority of all issues). I fully expect that number
of those issues to _drastically_ decrease with the next full Windows
release.

No one is perfect. Humans make mistakes. Things get missed sometimes. But I
know that things around here have dramatically changed in the past 3 years
and serious effort is being taken to undo the attitudes of the past.

And, yes, I have heard that joke before. It's funny 'cause it's true.

codepath




"Paul Kierstead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:pmkierst-05D0A5.17091007042004@nntp.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "codepath" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > But, down here in the trenches, we developers really do try to create
the
> > best software possible. No developer here would knowingly release
defective
> > code. Period.
>
> LOL. Riiiight. You think everyone fixes _every_ known bug before
> shipping? Most software would never ship. Well known joke amongst
> software developers:
>
> Q: "How do you stop you code from having more bugs?"
>
> A: "Stop testing"
>
> Paul

If it sucks so bad, then why continue using it? There are alternatives.

If you drink milk that has spoiled, would you bitch about it and keep
drinking?


codepath



"Dave Balderstone" <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote in message
news:070420041703440157%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca...
> In article <[email protected]>, codepath
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Sounds like you are one of those Microsoft-haters. You would hate MS no
> > matter what we did. What a clichŽ! You get all loud screaming "Microsoft
> > sucks" while running Windows. What a hypocrite! Say one thing, do
another.
> >
> > Must be a Republican.
>
> Must be a Windows user... Who better to yell "Windows sucks" than
> someone familiar with the OS?
>
> <d&r>
>
> --
> Okay, so this is my new sig line, eh?

Key word in sentence: knowingly

No one that I know would _knowingly_ do that.

Just checked, and yes, there it is, I am speaking in English.


<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:12:30 -0700, "codepath" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >All software has bugs. Period.
> snip...
> > No developer here would knowingly release defective
> >code. Period.
> snip....
> >codepath
> >
>
>
>
>
> so just who IS it releasing all of that software....?
>
>
> <G>

In rec.woodworking
Mapdude <[email protected]> wrote:

>No dickwad. You can't fully evaluate crippled software. IF I download
>it to try it, I uncripple it. If I like it, I will buy it. Pure and simple.
>
>Keep your pious high and mighty virtue bullshit for some one who gives a
>shit about YOUR OPINIONS.
>
>how is it that proverb goes? Let those who are without sin cast the
>first stone.......

You're a walking contradiction moron. If you don't care about my opinion,
why pray tell, did you respond? Post proof of purchase for Cut List dated
from prior to 3 days ago and I'll kiss your ass in front of all of
rec.woodworking. Otherwise, fuck off an die you piece of shit.

In rec.woodworking
Mapdude <[email protected]> wrote:

>Money tight in your household? Thats too bad.

Oh, so you have money to burn and yet still feel the urge to fuck over
innocent programmers. You're just digging the hole deeper and deeper
loser.

Post proof of download and use.

again, Let those who are without sin cast the
first stone.......

If you are free of any wrongdoing in your life, declare it before God
and be done with it.

Bruce wrote:
> In rec.woodworking
> Mapdude <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>No dickwad. You can't fully evaluate crippled software. IF I download
>>it to try it, I uncripple it. If I like it, I will buy it. Pure and simple.
>>
>>Keep your pious high and mighty virtue bullshit for some one who gives a
>>shit about YOUR OPINIONS.
>>
>>how is it that proverb goes? Let those who are without sin cast the
>>first stone.......
>
>
> You're a walking contradiction moron. If you don't care about my opinion,
> why pray tell, did you respond? Post proof of purchase for Cut List dated
> from prior to 3 days ago and I'll kiss your ass in front of all of
> rec.woodworking. Otherwise, fuck off an die you piece of shit.
>
>

I have started using CutList last year and it makes a world of
difference in my wood buying trips and figuring out panel cutting from
plywood. Its made more difference than I expected.


"Keith" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Does anyone have any recommendations on "cut list" software? (i.e., I need N
> pieces at A x B, what's the best way to cut them from a 4x8 sheet, etc)

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Post proof of download and use.
>
> again, Let those who are without sin cast the
> first stone.......
>
> If you are free of any wrongdoing in your life, declare it before God
> and be done with it.
>

Pretty typical of modern society's approach to life. "Unless you are
perfect, don't show me where I am going wrong". That wasn't exactly the
intent of the quote you are using above when it was first used.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> "codepath" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > I have been in the computer industry for over 15 years myself. The last 8 at
> > Microsoft as a developer. You may not like Microsoft's business practices or
> > some of the management-level decisions regarding our products, but I believe
> > that most people in the industry would agree that as developers, we ain't
> > too shabby.
>
> Man, you really opened yourself up for flames here. You're not going
> to win any arguments, so you should just stop posting in this thread.
>
> Micro$oft programmers' opinions of themselves is a huge part of the
> problem. You think you're badass, and stuff starts slipping through
> the cracks.
>

Part of it is the culture. You don't get hired unless you show that
you can solve some of those irritating mental puzzles (you know the ones
like 5 missionaries and 5 cannibals have to get across a rope bridge
...). Some people do well at it, some don't, but IMHO, that doesn't
provide a very good indication of how innovative or how "out of the
box" you are going to be in a real environment. What it does do is
guarantee hiring a certain type of person. The kind of person who, for
example, might take great delight in writing clever little easter eggs
into flagship software products. In Msoft's opinion (or at least it
used to be several years ago) that was a prime qualifier to get hired.

> I'm a game programmer and we were forced to "upgrade" to .NET for XBox
> development. What a heap of crap it is. There are so many problems
> that I can't believe it got out the door. Even more stunning is the
> fact that there are no service packs for these problems.
>
> Micro$oft ruined SourceSafe when they bought the product, renamed it
> "Visual SourceSafe," and destabilized it. Now everyone is running to
> Perforce because some "not too shabby" programmers there decided to
> innovate.
>

Ah yes, the infamous, "Microsoft freedom to innovate" which typically
means "freedom to deviate from the standard into our own proprietary
format". Which translates into software and data that is only readable
using a Microsoft product, and, since Msoft has such a share of the
market to force the adoption of the Msoft product by just about
everybody in order to be able to access the data they need.

Hello,
You may also like ot have a look at our PLUS 2D software.
The light version should be sufficient for rectangular parts.
A demo is available from the downloadcenter at www.nirvanatec.com
s.shrikanth
Nirvana Technologies

Dear Sir,

Thank you for post and feedback...


> I won't even try your software.
>
> I will NOT download and run and executable (.EXE file) just to see screen
> shots of your product (and no one else should EVER do that either).
>

I think there is a misunderstanding here...
- The demo version is a fully working version, and not some
screenshots. It is the same as a normal version, except that
for large problems, it displays only the first
cutting patterns.
You can still input your complete cutlists, optimize, get an
idea of your overall utilizations, see how much you can save,
and then decide if the product is useful to you.


> That was a horrible idea. Just put them in a web page to view them online.
> Unless there is some reason that you are making it difficult for potential
> customers to simply get a look at your product. If your product has any
> merit and you are not ashamed to show it off, you will put your screen shots
> on your web site.
>

Now that you mention it, it is indeed a excellet thought
to add more screen shots of the program on the web site.
I will have more details of the software with screenshots
on the website by next week.

>
> So, in case I was vague in my opinion, you should NEVER, EVER, NOT ONE
> SINGLE TIME, download and run ANY executable unless ABSOLUTELY necessary!!!
> ESPECIALLY from a company that you have NEVER HEARD OF BEFORE!!
>
> Downloading and using software from a reputable vendor is an acceptable
> risk.
>
> Downloading and running a potentially harmful executable file just for the
> simple pleasure of being able to see what the eventual software even looks
> like and before deciding if it is right for you and then downloading and
> running the software, especially in this case being that the vendor is
> completely unknown and half way around the globe, DOES NOT QUALIFY!!
>
> Even if you have good intentions, who knows if your server has been infected
> by a virus without your knowledge. Any server can be hit with a virus. So,
> everyone should have the automatic attitude to not trust any download from
> any company. Especially an unknown company. Major software companies
> (Microsoft, IBM, Apple, etc) have money and resources to mitigate these
> issues. Still, I quarantine and scan EVERYTHING I download. And I only
> download from companies that I trust. Since I do not know NirvanaTec, it is
> just not worth the risk.
>

Some people do like to try the software before buying it, to
see how best it suites them. If one has to try something, I
am sure it has to be downloaded.

An alternative I can think of is to host it on a few download
sites, (say you candownload it from TUCOWS or CNet).
I will see if we can do this.
Would this address the issue you have raised.


>
> I don't think too many woodworkers could spend $400 on this type program.
>
> Neal
>

We have a large number of customers from woodworking.
That apart, optimization software is availabele from $80 - $8000
and we believe we are giving value for money.
What I would suggest is to try out a few real life jobs,
see the amount PLUS 2D can save for you, and compare the
same with doing things manually or with other products.
That perhaps can justify the price.

with best regards,
s.shrikanth
www.nirvanatec.com

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Mark & Juanita wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> >> Post proof of download and use.
> >>
> >> again, Let those who are without sin cast the
> >> first stone.......
> >>
> >> If you are free of any wrongdoing in your life, declare it before God
> >> and be done with it.
> >>
> >
> > Pretty typical of modern society's approach to life. "Unless you
> > are perfect, don't show me where I am going wrong". That wasn't
> > exactly the intent of the quote you are using above when it was first
> > used.
>
> The way I read it, after we get the log out of our own eye we're supposed to
> help others get the specks out of theirs. ;-) But don't forget whose
> problem was bigger to begin with.

Both quotes had more to do with the attitude in the hearts of the
accusers than the actual actions. The idea that one must become perfect
(i.e. "removing the log" or "being without sin") before one can help
another avoid or point out a sin that is leading to a brother's
destruction is a guarantee that no one would ever point out problems
because no one is perfect, nor will they be perfect in this lifetime.
However, the attitude of self-righteousness and lack of love when
pointing out another's sin are the real problem being addressed here.
The concern is supposed to be for the other person's well-being, not to
elevate ourselves above the other when identifying error. We do this by
knowing that our own natural nature is not better than the other
person's and is, in fact, most likely even worse. That still should not
prevent us from stopping someone from stepping into the path of an on-
coming train.

>
> -- Mark
>
>
>

"Ed Clarke" wrote in message

> I'm looking at the CutList "compare features" page right now. Can anyone
> explain what "copies allowed per part" means? I'm not really likely to
> make 1000 copies (or 5000 for the gold version) of anything, but...

It's not anything to concern you unless you are running a production shop
and making hundreds of a particular item, say like a Mission hall bench.

Let's say the bench requires 25 slats of the exact same dimension. Your
enter the slat (part) once in CutList program and the number of "copies"
that you would make for each bench would be 25.

You can see that if you were going to use the program to figure the cost,
cutlist, layouts, and raw materials list for a 100 of these benches, you
would need the Gold version.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/04

tell him how you REALLY feel!!

dave

Mapdude wrote:

> No dickwad. You can't fully evaluate crippled software. IF I download
> it to try it, I uncripple it. If I like it, I will buy it. Pure and simple.
>
> Keep your pious high and mighty virtue bullshit for some one who gives a
> shit about YOUR OPINIONS.
>
> how is it that proverb goes? Let those who are without sin cast the
> first stone.......
>
>
>
> Bruce wrote:
>
>>
>> You're a slimy dirtbag mapscum. There is no insurance to cover what
>> you're
>> stealing from a guy that devoted countless hours to writing an excellent
>> program. I hope you choke on the $30.00 you saved cheapskate.
>
>

codepath wrote:

> I even heard recently that there is a new virus that gets
> imbedded into JPG files. If that is true (I have not confirmed
> it), then all of the Internet is vulnerable.

Oh my! Since JPEG files aren't ever executed, this would indicate
that at least /one/ vendor's JPEG decoder fails to check for
improperly or maliciously formatted image files, which failure
exposes all of their customers to whatever damage any virus
hacker might choose to inflict.

Hmm. I wonder which software producer would be so careless of
quality and so unconcerned with the welfare of their customers?

> I am here at Microsoft, doing my part to fix security issues
> in my product and to keep others motivated to do the same.

How could I possibly not have known! I suppose this means I'll
have to install Linux on this (SWMBO's) machine, too...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> No dickwad. You can't fully evaluate crippled software. IF I download
> it to try it, I uncripple it. If I like it, I will buy it. Pure and simple.
>
> Keep your pious high and mighty virtue bullshit for some one who gives a
> shit about YOUR OPINIONS.
>
> how is it that proverb goes? Let those who are without sin cast the
> first stone.......

The problem is - CutList doesn't cripple their software. Only limits
how often you can use it or the number of parts.
--
Regards,

Rick

(Remove the HIGH SPOTS for e-mail)

I don't know about jpeg, but there was a bmp buffer exploit some time
ago that could be used to infect Microsoft systems.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> codepath wrote:
>
> > I even heard recently that there is a new virus that gets
> > imbedded into JPG files. If that is true (I have not confirmed
> > it), then all of the Internet is vulnerable.
>
> Oh my! Since JPEG files aren't ever executed, this would indicate
> that at least /one/ vendor's JPEG decoder fails to check for
> improperly or maliciously formatted image files, which failure
> exposes all of their customers to whatever damage any virus
> hacker might choose to inflict.
>
> Hmm. I wonder which software producer would be so careless of
> quality and so unconcerned with the welfare of their customers?
>
> > I am here at Microsoft, doing my part to fix security issues
> > in my product and to keep others motivated to do the same.
>
> How could I possibly not have known! I suppose this means I'll
> have to install Linux on this (SWMBO's) machine, too...
>
>

Mark & Juanita wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>> Post proof of download and use.
>>
>> again, Let those who are without sin cast the
>> first stone.......
>>
>> If you are free of any wrongdoing in your life, declare it before God
>> and be done with it.
>>
>
> Pretty typical of modern society's approach to life. "Unless you
> are perfect, don't show me where I am going wrong". That wasn't
> exactly the intent of the quote you are using above when it was first
> used.

The way I read it, after we get the log out of our own eye we're supposed to
help others get the specks out of theirs. ;-) But don't forget whose
problem was bigger to begin with.

-- Mark

codepath wrote:

> "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> dribbled...

> The reason that so many issues are discovered with Windows is
> that it has a larger footprint. It's a more juicy target for
> the fools that create viruses. Tons of Linux bugs and security
> issues are disovered all the time, but they just don't make
> the news. Doesn't mean that they are not there.

Yuppers. Part of the problem /is/ code bloat. In six years I
managed to find exactly one bug (I *discovered* it back in Red
Hat Linux 4.2) and reported it /to the author/, who produced a
corrected version of the module and made it available to the
world in less than twenty minutes.

I'm still waiting for Microsoft's promised RTC fix for COBOL-80.
Actually, I'm not really still waiting - I've decided that the
guy who made the promise had a chronic integrity impairment. Care
to guess who it was? [Hint: I already know that everyone reading
this newsgroup knows his name.]

> Anyone who thinks that bugs and security vulnerabilities are
> consiously and deliberately release is a fool. Microsoft is
> very pro-active to correct issues once discovered.

Microsoft has a well-earned reputation for letting their
customers find the bugs for them. By the time MS-DOS 3.2 came
out, I was already bored to tears with the lame excuses. You must
not have been around for Windows 3.x, which would not and could
not have been released by any software firm making even a pretext
of caring about quality. If you're able to stir up a little
pro-activity on my still extant COBOL-80 compiler problem, it'd
be appreciated.

> All software has bugs. Period. Bug-free software is as much of
> a reality as unicorns, hobbits, and Iraqi WMDs.

A comforting mantra, no doubt, to producers of buggy software. To
at least some others (like myself) it's a lame excuse for doing a
sloppy job. Every bug represents a real world failure to
produce a full-quality product. We all fail sometimes. Microsoft
would seem to Excel at it.

> Don't get me wrong. I know that Windows has issues. I agree
> that some of Microsoft's business practices are lame.

Issues? I call 'em "bugs". Lame? Interesting choice of words -
not one of the ones I'd have chosen to describe their business
practices.

> But, down here in the trenches, we developers really do try to
> create the best software possible. No developer here would
> knowingly release defective code. Period.

I can appreciate that MS developers down there in the trenches
really do try to create the best software they can; and that they
would never knowingly release defective code. I just wish they
were more capable, more knowledgeable, did more complete
pre-release testing, and devoted more effort to functionally
critical areas and less to screwing around with "easter eggs" and
dancing paper clips.

> Sounds like you are one of those Microsoft-haters. You would
> hate MS no matter what we did. What a cliché! You get all loud
> screaming "Microsoft sucks" while running Windows. What a
> hypocrite! Say one thing, do another.

I'm not a true "Microsoft hater" yet - I seem to have gotten
stuck in the "disgusted" stage. If it offends you that my Linux
box lives in my shop (where I really need the reliability) and
that I post from SWMBO's windows box at home - well, I have to
admit that it offends me too. (-:

I'm not a Microsoft hater - I'm a /bug/ hater; and I tend to have
a low regard for companies who sell defective products and/or
don't make good on their committments. YMMV.

> Must be a Republican.

Not worthy of an answer.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA

"codepath" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I have been in the computer industry for over 15 years myself. The last 8 at
> Microsoft as a developer. You may not like Microsoft's business practices or
> some of the management-level decisions regarding our products, but I believe
> that most people in the industry would agree that as developers, we ain't
> too shabby.

Man, you really opened yourself up for flames here. You're not going
to win any arguments, so you should just stop posting in this thread.

Micro$oft programmers' opinions of themselves is a huge part of the
problem. You think you're badass, and stuff starts slipping through
the cracks.

I'm a game programmer and we were forced to "upgrade" to .NET for XBox
development. What a heap of crap it is. There are so many problems
that I can't believe it got out the door. Even more stunning is the
fact that there are no service packs for these problems.

Micro$oft ruined SourceSafe when they bought the product, renamed it
"Visual SourceSafe," and destabilized it. Now everyone is running to
Perforce because some "not too shabby" programmers there decided to
innovate.

Micro$oft is the Wal-Mart of software. Nobody likes them. They're both
the biggest, they both sell crap, and everyone buys it.

At least I don't use Windoze much at home. I don't use a computer much
at home. I head out to the wooodshop :)

You can think you're as badass as you want. You may even be badass,
but you're not smart for putting your efforts into a company that
takes no pride in it's products. Through poor quality, Micro$oft
tarnishes the "Made in USA" label just as badly as the American
automakers. At least there are better, more popular choices for cars.

-Mike

I think the .NET feature set is incredible, it's just the bugs that
ruin it. We use it for C++.

Two major examples:

When I pull code, and a project file changes, I only get prompted the
/first/ time -- if I pull later, I get no prompt and the project file
doesn't reload. We've had to resort to closing .NET completely,
pulling code, then restarting and reloading the solution.

RetardiSense(tm) only works about 10% of the time, and I can see no
pattern of when it works. Most of the time, I get the wonderful
"IntelliSense: 'No additional information available'" Ugh. Makes me
feel like I'm editing with Notepad.

The developers that released this piece of wonderment are "not too
shabby," huh? Dumbasses.

"Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Mike Reed wrote:
> > I'm a game programmer and we were forced to "upgrade" to .NET for XBox
> > development. What a heap of crap it is. There are so many problems
> > that I can't believe it got out the door. Even more stunning is the
> > fact that there are no service packs for these problems.
>
> ;-) I've been writing code since the 1970's and I'm quite (favorably)
> impressed with .NET. Of course it's not perfect but a lot of it is pretty
> darn close. ASP.NET is better for web apps than anything else I know about.
>
> I'm still pining for VB6-style MDE development windows because they make
> much better use of screen space on multiple monitor computers. But other
> than that everything I use has been improved under .NET.
>
> YMMV... <g>
>
> -- Mark

Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Part of it is the culture. You don't get hired unless you show that
> you can solve some of those irritating mental puzzles (you know the ones
> like 5 missionaries and 5 cannibals have to get across a rope bridge
> ...). Some people do well at it, some don't, but IMHO, that doesn't
> provide a very good indication of how innovative or how "out of the
> box" you are going to be in a real environment. What it does do is
> guarantee hiring a certain type of person. The kind of person who, for
> example, might take great delight in writing clever little easter eggs
> into flagship software products. In Msoft's opinion (or at least it
> used to be several years ago) that was a prime qualifier to get hired.

Yeah, that's for sure. When I was about to graduate with my CS degree,
I interviewed with Micro$oft just for practice. I knew they had a
challenging interview process, and I had zero interest in actually
working for them. I did well with the technical and puzzler questions
(I really like those kinds of problems).

I declined a second interview.

Boy, the job market sure was different back then :)

In article <[email protected]>, rob wrote:
> I have started using CutList last year and it makes a world of
> difference in my wood buying trips and figuring out panel cutting from
> plywood. Its made more difference than I expected.
>
>
> "Keith" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> Does anyone have any recommendations on "cut list" software? (i.e., I need N
>> pieces at A x B, what's the best way to cut them from a 4x8 sheet, etc)

I'm looking at the CutList "compare features" page right now. Can anyone
explain what "copies allowed per part" means? I'm not really likely to
make 1000 copies (or 5000 for the gold version) of anything, but...

In article <[email protected]>, Swingman wrote:

> Let's say the bench requires 25 slats of the exact same dimension. Your
> enter the slat (part) once in CutList program and the number of "copies"
> that you would make for each bench would be 25.
>
> You can see that if you were going to use the program to figure the cost,
> cutlist, layouts, and raw materials list for a 100 of these benches, you
> would need the Gold version.

Ah! Now I understand - it's nothing to concern me as a hobbiest.

Now, I'm looking at the samples on the register page:

http://cutlistplus.com/register.aspx

There's no way you're going to cut sample #1 or #2 with a table saw. Do
these cutlist programs presume that you're going to use a saber saw to
cut out the pieces? Even sample #3 looks a little "iffy"...

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 09:45:21 -0800, "codepath" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I won't even try your software.
>
>I will NOT download and run and executable (.EXE file) just to see screen
>shots of your product (and no one else should EVER do that either).
>
>That was a horrible idea. Just put them in a web page to view them online.
>Unless there is some reason that you are making it difficult for potential
>customers to simply get a look at your product. If your product has any
>merit and you are not ashamed to show it off, you will put your screen shots
>on your web site.
>
>So, in case I was vague in my opinion, you should NEVER, EVER, NOT ONE
>SINGLE TIME, download and run ANY executable unless ABSOLUTELY necessary!!!
>ESPECIALLY from a company that you have NEVER HEARD OF BEFORE!!
>
>Downloading and using software from a reputable vendor is an acceptable
>risk.
>
>Downloading and running a potentially harmful executable file just for the
>simple pleasure of being able to see what the eventual software even looks
>like and before deciding if it is right for you and then downloading and
>running the software, especially in this case being that the vendor is
>completely unknown and half way around the globe, DOES NOT QUALIFY!!
>
>Even if you have good intentions, who knows if your server has been infected
>by a virus without your knowledge. Any server can be hit with a virus. So,
>everyone should have the automatic attitude to not trust any download from
>any company. Especially an unknown company. Major software companies
>(Microsoft, IBM, Apple, etc) have money and resources to mitigate these
>issues. Still, I quarantine and scan EVERYTHING I download. And I only
>download from companies that I trust. Since I do not know NirvanaTec, it is
>just not worth the risk.
>
>Okay, my meds are starting to kick in now. Losing interest in this topic.
>
>Oh, look. A butterfly....
>
>
>codepath
>
>
>
>
>"Shrikanth S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Hello,
>> You may also like ot have a look at our PLUS 2D software.
>> The light version should be sufficient for rectangular parts.
>> A demo is available from the downloadcenter at www.nirvanatec.com
>> s.shrikanth
>> Nirvana Technologies
>

Mike Reed wrote:
> "codepath" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> I have been in the computer industry for over 15 years myself. The
>> last 8 at Microsoft as a developer. You may not like Microsoft's
>> business practices or
>> some of the management-level decisions regarding our products, but I
>> believe
>> that most people in the industry would agree that as developers, we
>> ain't too shabby.
>
> Man, you really opened yourself up for flames here. You're not going
> to win any arguments, so you should just stop posting in this thread.
>
> Micro$oft programmers' opinions of themselves is a huge part of the
> problem. You think you're badass, and stuff starts slipping through
> the cracks.
>
> I'm a game programmer and we were forced to "upgrade" to .NET for XBox
> development. What a heap of crap it is. There are so many problems
> that I can't believe it got out the door. Even more stunning is the
> fact that there are no service packs for these problems.

;-) I've been writing code since the 1970's and I'm quite (favorably)
impressed with .NET. Of course it's not perfect but a lot of it is pretty
darn close. ASP.NET is better for web apps than anything else I know about.

I'm still pining for VB6-style MDE development windows because they make
much better use of screen space on multiple monitor computers. But other
than that everything I use has been improved under .NET.

YMMV... <g>

-- Mark

On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 11:51:23 GMT, Mapdude <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Insurance will cover the loss.

Then you won't object to your higher insurance premiums to cover more
theft by other assholes.

Dan.

I think you could do both #1 and #2 with a table saw. You would have to
flip it 90 degrees a number of times, but you could do it.

Joe


"Ed Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Swingman wrote:
>
> > Let's say the bench requires 25 slats of the exact same dimension. Your
> > enter the slat (part) once in CutList program and the number of "copies"
> > that you would make for each bench would be 25.
> >
> > You can see that if you were going to use the program to figure the
cost,
> > cutlist, layouts, and raw materials list for a 100 of these benches, you
> > would need the Gold version.
>
> Ah! Now I understand - it's nothing to concern me as a hobbiest.
>
> Now, I'm looking at the samples on the register page:
>
> http://cutlistplus.com/register.aspx
>
> There's no way you're going to cut sample #1 or #2 with a table saw. Do
> these cutlist programs presume that you're going to use a saber saw to
> cut out the pieces? Even sample #3 looks a little "iffy"...
>

Rick Chamberlain wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>> No dickwad. You can't fully evaluate crippled software. IF I download
>> it to try it, I uncripple it. If I like it, I will buy it. Pure and simple.
>>
>> Keep your pious high and mighty virtue bullshit for some one who gives a
>> shit about YOUR OPINIONS.
>>
>> how is it that proverb goes? Let those who are without sin cast the
>> first stone.......
>
> The problem is - CutList doesn't cripple their software. Only limits
> how often you can use it or the number of parts.


What I wonder about is why he had to crow how he'd gotten around the
registration. I believe I'd have kept that information to myself.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[email protected]
http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

key word in tongue in cheek smartass response: <G>

I knew what you meant; I was just yanking yer chain a little....




On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:17:05 -0700, "codepath" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Key word in sentence: knowingly
>
>No one that I know would _knowingly_ do that.
>
>Just checked, and yes, there it is, I am speaking in English.
>
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:12:30 -0700, "codepath" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >All software has bugs. Period.
>> snip...
>> > No developer here would knowingly release defective
>> >code. Period.
>> snip....
>> >codepath
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> so just who IS it releasing all of that software....?
>>
>>
>> <G>
>

But not your honor or integrity.

--



>Insurance will cover the loss.
>
>Sprog wrote:
>>
>> You probably will not object then when someone comes and STEALS your property.
>>
>>
>> Mapdude <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>It only took me about 5 minutes to find the registration code on the
>>>internet.............
>>>
>>



Talk to the finger, 'cause it don't deserve a whole hand.

In article <[email protected]>,
"codepath" <[email protected]> wrote:

> But, down here in the trenches, we developers really do try to create the
> best software possible. No developer here would knowingly release defective
> code. Period.

LOL. Riiiight. You think everyone fixes _every_ known bug before
shipping? Most software would never ship. Well known joke amongst
software developers:

Q: "How do you stop you code from having more bugs?"

A: "Stop testing"

Paul

You probably will not object then when someone comes and STEALS your property.


Mapdude <[email protected]> wrote:

>It only took me about 5 minutes to find the registration code on the
>internet.............
>

On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 21:01:04 GMT, Dragon Breath
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>I won't even try your software.
>>
>>I will NOT download and run and executable (.EXE file) just to see screen
>>shots of your product (and no one else should EVER do that either).

Utter bloody rubbish. Take a look at the site, and you'll see the
difference between professional quality software and garbage designed
to spread spam or viruses. Those assholes can't even spell
woodworking.

In any event, it's just a glorified spreadsheet. You could make up
your own if you knew anything about computers. Further: You can get
a freeware full office suite including a great spreadsheet from Open
Office Org.

I'm downloading as we speak. ..and I don't use Norton, just common
sense and a quarter century of experience with computers.

Dan.

On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:12:30 -0700, "codepath" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>All software has bugs. Period.
snip...
> No developer here would knowingly release defective
>code. Period.
snip....
>codepath
>




so just who IS it releasing all of that software....?


<G>

"Joe Tylicki" wrote in message
> I think you could do both #1 and #2 with a table saw. You would have to
> flip it 90 degrees a number of times, but you could do it.


With Cutlist Plus you can change the optimization, and thus the cut layouts,
between maximum utilization of material with minimum waste or vice versa.
You can also change the grain direction of the cuts as well as specify the
amount(%) of waste you can live with .

In short, there are a number of ways to do cut layouts depending upon these
parameters, as well as optimization for yield when dealing with rough
lumber.

I don't work for the company and there might be software out there just as
good, this is solely my experience with that particular program.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/02/04

"Keith" wrote in message
> Does anyone have any recommendations on "cut list" software? (i.e., I need
N
> pieces at A x B, what's the best way to cut them from a 4x8 sheet, etc)

Cutlist Plus is my favorite. I have the Gold edition and would as soon start
a project of any size without my table saw.

http://cutlistplus.com/

There may be others out there that are as good, but I feel fairly certain
you will be satisfied with CutList Plus.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/04

"Keith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Does anyone have any recommendations on "cut list" software? (i.e., I need
N
> pieces at A x B, what's the best way to cut them from a 4x8 sheet, etc)
>
> --
> Keith
>
>

The only program that I have used is Sheet Layout. I have used it for
years, and have upgraded a few times. I like it a lot, but have not kept
current with other options. The website is www.sheetlayout.com

Good Luck - Bob