Hi
Just got back from Malaysia. Visiting family mostly as my wife is
from Sabah, Borneo.
I would like to appeal to all you woodworkers out there to stop buying
topical hardwoods unless you know and I mean _KNOW_ that they come
from sustainable sources. Corruption is rife over there and day by
day the forest is being destroyed. Companies that present themselves
as being legitimate and concerned about sustainability are
systematically corrupt. The whole economics/politics of the place is
based upon this corruption too.
I'm a cabinet maker in the UK and I know what trouble it makes for me
to try to buy timber that isn't tainted. Trouble is though that if we
woodsmiths don't start acting responsibly and questioning where
_EVERY_ single piece of timber (and that applies to ply too) comes
from then there won't be anything left and many of the ecosystems that
these timbers come from will not regenerate.
Close by to me in the UK there's a company that does timbers for
woodturning. I've been to their storehouse and seen timber for sale
that just plain shouldn't be available. They might make great little
bowls to give as gifts but just think about the damage done. A small
piece of timber for turning makes them a great deal of profit but each
small piece comes from an illegally chopped tree. And each tree is a
part of an ecosystem.
If you're bothered then think about it. Think about what you buy and
the consequences. I get great pleasure out of my work. That's why I
went into it. But I question daily whether my conscience is clean.
A link to the FOE good wood guide.
http://www.foe.co.uk/campaigns/biodiversity/resource/good_wood_guide/wood_timber_buying_guide.html
Enough already.
Apologies for the sermon.
Nicholas
On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:11:24 +0800, Justin Peer <[email protected]>
wrote:
You are in the wrong place. Brunei is sandwich in between Sabah and Sarawak,
East Malaysia. You should go to Tawau, Sabah in the North. I believe Sabah
Softwood have reforesting there since the early eighties. Borneo is divided into
three Countries, East Malaysia, Brunei and Indonesia.
If opportunity permit do climb Kota Kinabalu, an experience you will never
forget.
>I've just moved to Brunei, Borneo and taken my first trip to the local
>sawmill. I've tried asking where it comes from, but you get the answer
>'The forests in the north'. That is as much as they tell you. I don't
>know if it's all they know, but it's all you'll get. they're not a big
>exporter, just a small (and scary machinery) place on the bank of the
>river, providing to the local construction market.
>
>I've got zip chance of finding out where my wood comes from. They don't
>seem to understand the concept of ecological wood cutting, so I'm
>intrigued as to how you find all your information. When stuff is
>exported, I assume it has to have documentary provenance etc, but it
>doesn't for local woods.
>
>J.
On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:55:49 -0400, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>George wrote:
>
>> Comes down to eating versus starving, really. Tomorrow's a long way away
>> when your belly's growling.
>>
>> Fortunately, we here in the US can vote for a man this fall who will force
>> those folks over there to stop exploiting the labor of their people, and
>> enforce California environmental law on 'em. Just ask him....
>
>You mean Bush has added the invasion of Borneo to the platform while I
>wasn't looking? Kewl.
Does he know exactly where Bornea is, let alone how the State look like?
I guess he's having personal problems.
On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:51:36 -0500, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
>Eh? George? Personal problems? No way. When he has real personal
>problems, he calls for a constitutional amendment...
Are you sure he doesn't have personal problems?
Look like he need Viraga to change his attitude?
I've just moved to Brunei, Borneo and taken my first trip to the local
sawmill. I've tried asking where it comes from, but you get the answer
'The forests in the north'. That is as much as they tell you. I don't
know if it's all they know, but it's all you'll get. they're not a big
exporter, just a small (and scary machinery) place on the bank of the
river, providing to the local construction market.
I've got zip chance of finding out where my wood comes from. They don't
seem to understand the concept of ecological wood cutting, so I'm
intrigued as to how you find all your information. When stuff is
exported, I assume it has to have documentary provenance etc, but it
doesn't for local woods.
J.
If it were any more than a than a drop in the ocean of dunnage, charcoal,
building materials, etc, I guess I'd worry.
"Nicholas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi
>
> Just got back from Malaysia. Visiting family mostly as my wife is
> from Sabah, Borneo.
>
> I would like to appeal to all you woodworkers out there to stop buying
> topical hardwoods unless you know and I mean _KNOW_ that they come
> from sustainable sources.
Fine words. Good thoughts. Bad data. Might want to look up the cordage
which makes it to the hobby market to see how little a million woodworkers
get compared to the local people who build their hooches out of the wood, or
cook their food, or....
"Fly-by-Night CC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "George" <george@least>
> wrote:
>
> > If it were any more than a than a drop in the ocean of dunnage,
charcoal,
> > building materials, etc, I guess I'd worry.
>
> If a million woodworkers change their, "Other uses are much more
> destructive than my piddly needs so I'm not going to feel guilty,"
> beliefs, the market just might take notice. Also consider the
Comes down to eating versus starving, really. Tomorrow's a long way away
when your belly's growling.
Fortunately, we here in the US can vote for a man this fall who will force
those folks over there to stop exploiting the labor of their people, and
enforce California environmental law on 'em. Just ask him....
"Fly-by-Night CC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> The topic of harvesting tropical woods is certainly a Catch-22
> situation. If you instill in locals the monetary value of the trees then
> corruption can easily cause widespread clearcutting without any
> sustainability measures. If you downplay the monetary value then the
> locals will still likely cut the trees to make way for other uses that
> generate money. It's a tough situation to solve but it really does come
> down to the local people recognizing the ecological as well as monetary
> value of what's in their backyard.
>
The _second_ to last will not starve, in that instance.
And for your information, that was a universal statement. Have some
imagination - and some Maalox.
"WD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:03:24 -0400, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>
> >Comes down to eating versus starving, really. Tomorrow's a long way
away
> >when your belly's growling.
>
> Just for your information, they will NEVER stave as their (Dayak) ancestor
eat
> human and the head is their specialty!
>
Fly-by-Night CC <[email protected]> schreef
> The topic of harvesting tropical woods is certainly a Catch-22
> situation. If you instill in locals the monetary value of the trees then
> corruption can easily cause widespread clearcutting without any
> sustainability measures. If you downplay the monetary value then the
> locals will still likely cut the trees to make way for other uses that
> generate money. It's a tough situation to solve but it really does come
> down to the local people recognizing the ecological as well as monetary
> value of what's in their backyard.
+ + +
It is more complicated than that. Usually it does not matter what the local
people think. If they get in the way of the government or bigbusiness the
local people are deported or shot.
If the trees cannot be sold as timber, they can be sold as pulp (for paper),
or burnt have the ash used as fertilizer.
PvR
"George" <george@least> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Fortunately, we here in the US can vote for a man this fall who will force
> those folks over there to stop exploiting the labor of their people, and
> enforce California environmental law on 'em. Just ask him....
That must mean your fairy godmother is running for office.
Fly-by-Night CC wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "George" <george@least>
> wrote:
>
>> If it were any more than a than a drop in the ocean of dunnage, charcoal,
>> building materials, etc, I guess I'd worry.
>
> If a million woodworkers change their, "Other uses are much more
> destructive than my piddly needs so I'm not going to feel guilty,"
> beliefs, the market just might take notice. Also consider the
> word-of-mouth effect in raising awareness of the corruption and waste.
Care to provide comparisons of relative magnitudes of usage?
> On the notion of trading wood, this happens amongst woodturners fairly
> regularly. I've send Oregon woods like Western Big Leaf Maple, Claro
> Walnut and Filbert to Pennsylvania, Hawaii and Tennessee - in return
> I've gotten Koa, Pheasantwood, Locust and Mulberry. The downside is that
> turners generally favor green wood and it's a might pricey to ship all
> that water. (I claim "book rate" since it's just a book in raw form.)
>
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
George wrote:
> Fine words. Good thoughts. Bad data. Might want to look up the cordage
> which makes it to the hobby market to see how little a million woodworkers
> get compared to the local people who build their hooches out of the wood,
> or cook their food, or....
Not to mention the ones that just cut it down and burn it to clear space for
farming or roads.
I hate to say this but perhaps what is needed is something along the lines
of an OPEC for wood, that sets the world harvest rates and prices so that
the resource remains available.
> "Fly-by-Night CC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, "George" <george@least>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > If it were any more than a than a drop in the ocean of dunnage,
> charcoal,
>> > building materials, etc, I guess I'd worry.
>>
>> If a million woodworkers change their, "Other uses are much more
>> destructive than my piddly needs so I'm not going to feel guilty,"
>> beliefs, the market just might take notice. Also consider the
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>I hate to say this but perhaps what is needed is something along the lines
>of an OPEC for wood, that sets the world harvest rates and prices so that
>the resource remains available.
>
Oh No ... a crippling dependence on imported wood ;-)
Maybe we should be hoping for more global warming. Then we can grow our own
teak ... in Kansas.
George wrote:
> Comes down to eating versus starving, really. Tomorrow's a long way away
> when your belly's growling.
>
> Fortunately, we here in the US can vote for a man this fall who will force
> those folks over there to stop exploiting the labor of their people, and
> enforce California environmental law on 'em. Just ask him....
You mean Bush has added the invasion of Borneo to the platform while I
wasn't looking? Kewl.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:11:24 +0800, Justin Peer
<[email protected]> calmly ranted:
>I've just moved to Brunei, Borneo and taken my first trip to the local
>sawmill. I've tried asking where it comes from, but you get the answer
>'The forests in the north'. That is as much as they tell you. I don't
>know if it's all they know, but it's all you'll get. they're not a big
>exporter, just a small (and scary machinery) place on the bank of the
>river, providing to the local construction market.
>
>I've got zip chance of finding out where my wood comes from. They don't
>seem to understand the concept of ecological wood cutting, so I'm
>intrigued as to how you find all your information. When stuff is
>exported, I assume it has to have documentary provenance etc, but it
>doesn't for local woods.
Look up the names of local sawmills and ask how many send
wood to the eco countries. They'll have "legal" wood.
--
Don't forget the 7 P's:
Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming
On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 04:42:37 -0700, Fly-by-Night CC
<[email protected]> calmly ranted:
>turners generally favor green wood and it's a might pricey to ship all
>that water. (I claim "book rate" since it's just a book in raw form.)
That lends new meaning to the term "log book", Owie. ;)
--
Don't forget the 7 P's:
Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming
In article <[email protected]>, "George" <george@least>
wrote:
> Fine words. Good thoughts.
Thanks.
> Bad data. Might want to look up the cordage
> which makes it to the hobby market to see how little a million woodworkers
> get compared to the local people who build their hooches out of the wood, or
> cook their food, or....
Word-of-mouth would eventually affect commercial uses of the tropicals
if consumers voiced concerns and didn't buy. (Realistically, I doubt
much would happen on this front - people who *want* something justify
their desires by citing they deserve to have it. We seem to have a
society that doesn't sacrifice anything for their desires - petroleum
and food come to mind.)
The topic of harvesting tropical woods is certainly a Catch-22
situation. If you instill in locals the monetary value of the trees then
corruption can easily cause widespread clearcutting without any
sustainability measures. If you downplay the monetary value then the
locals will still likely cut the trees to make way for other uses that
generate money. It's a tough situation to solve but it really does come
down to the local people recognizing the ecological as well as monetary
value of what's in their backyard.
--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design.
<http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com>
<http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html>
On 17 Jun 2004 00:30:38 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self) wrote:
>That makes me think of the dolt I saw on TV a couple weeks ago. We were in one
>of our periodic "three bucks a gallon is coming" spurts, so the interviewer
>asked this guy, who was gassing up one of the largest SUVs made, if the costly
>gas would change his habits. His answer, paraphrased but close, was: We're
>Americans and this is how we live.
>
>People like that make you wonder how they lived to grow up even as far as they
>did.
Exactly, and there are many among us are like that and are very proud of it!
Nah, don't believe in gas shortage, there are millions barrels beneath Alaska's
North slope and millions more off the coast of Texas and California. All we need
to do is to pump it out and everyone could have more than one BIG SUVs? :-)
Owen Lowe writes:
>Word-of-mouth would eventually affect commercial uses of the tropicals
>if consumers voiced concerns and didn't buy. (Realistically, I doubt
>much would happen on this front - people who *want* something justify
>their desires by citing they deserve to have it. We seem to have a
>society that doesn't sacrifice anything for their desires - petroleum
>and food come to mind.)
That makes me think of the dolt I saw on TV a couple weeks ago. We were in one
of our periodic "three bucks a gallon is coming" spurts, so the interviewer
asked this guy, who was gassing up one of the largest SUVs made, if the costly
gas would change his habits. His answer, paraphrased but close, was: We're
Americans and this is how we live.
People like that make you wonder how they lived to grow up even as far as they
did.
Charlie Self
"If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave
it to." Dorothy Parker
On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:11:32 -0400, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Conserving it just puts the day of reckoning a little farther off. Even if
>we all ride bicycles it's going to run out eventually. And don't say "more
>time to work on substitutes". A substitute will happen when the price of
>the substitute is less than the price of oil. There are plenty of them but
>no incentive to develop any of them.
Why ride bicycles or worry when the day of reckoning is a little further away
and the 2nd coming of Christ maybe just around the corner? :-)
WD wrote:
> On 17 Jun 2004 00:30:38 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
> wrote:
>
>>That makes me think of the dolt I saw on TV a couple weeks ago. We were in
>>one of our periodic "three bucks a gallon is coming" spurts, so the
>>interviewer asked this guy, who was gassing up one of the largest SUVs
>>made, if the costly gas would change his habits. His answer, paraphrased
>>but close, was: We're Americans and this is how we live.
>>
>>People like that make you wonder how they lived to grow up even as far as
>>they did.
>
> Exactly, and there are many among us are like that and are very proud of
> it!
>
> Nah, don't believe in gas shortage, there are millions barrels beneath
> Alaska's North slope and millions more off the coast of Texas and
> California. All we need to do is to pump it out and everyone could have
> more than one BIG SUVs? :-)
Conserving it just puts the day of reckoning a little farther off. Even if
we all ride bicycles it's going to run out eventually. And don't say "more
time to work on substitutes". A substitute will happen when the price of
the substitute is less than the price of oil. There are plenty of them but
no incentive to develop any of them.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Why would you even care if it doesn't cost you anything? I would
think that anyone spending money in an economy with high fuel prices
would excite someone who depends on consumer spending to make their
living. Your audience is slowly but surely dying off. You should
embrace anyone whom has the money to buy anything. Woodworking is not a
hobby for the faint of heart or paycheck to paycheck type of individual.
While machinery may be cheap, after market sales aren't. The dolt you
so proudly speak of, could quite well be a customer of the people who
pay you to write the articles you do.
Charlie Self wrote:
>That makes me think of the dolt I saw on TV a couple weeks ago. We were in one
>of our periodic "three bucks a gallon is coming" spurts, so the interviewer
>asked this guy, who was gassing up one of the largest SUVs made, if the costly
>gas would change his habits. His answer, paraphrased but close, was: We're
>Americans and this is how we live.
>
>People like that make you wonder how they lived to grow up even as far as they
>did.
>
>Charlie Self
>
>
>
>
>
>
Cody Hart responds:
> Why would you even care if it doesn't cost you anything? I would
>think that anyone spending money in an economy with high fuel prices
>would excite someone who depends on consumer spending to make their
>living. Your audience is slowly but surely dying off. You should
>embrace anyone whom has the money to buy anything. Woodworking is not a
>hobby for the faint of heart or paycheck to paycheck type of individual.
>While machinery may be cheap, after market sales aren't. The dolt you
>so proudly speak of, could quite well be a customer of the people who
>pay you to write the articles you do.
Well, as a start, it doesn't cost me anything at the moment, but it is going to
cost my grandchildren and their children something. The waste is not in
petroleum alone, but in steel, aluminum, plastics, leather and rubber, among
other materials. Actually, I'd guess that a check of pricing on a pair of shoes
might find some upward tension based on the use of a great deal of leather in
the huge number of luxury vehicles now being turned out. Might not, too, but
it's possible.
I don't embrace "anyone who has the money to buy anything" but you're welcome
to do so. The thought tends to make me gag.
Woodworking is not a hobby for the...paycheck to paycheck type? Nice of you to
let us know. Woodworking is a hobby for anyone who desires to work wood, and
great expenditures of money are a nice thing for some, but are a long way from
being an essential of the hobby.
And the dolt I spoke of, not proudly, as he is not mine, nor am I proud of his
asininity, may well be a customer of the people for whom I write articles. So
what? This isn't Woodcraft. Are you going to run and tell every editor in the
U.S. that Charlie Self thinks energy pigs are dolts?
Whoopee.
Charlie Self
"If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave
it to." Dorothy Parker
Charlie Self wrote:
> Cody Hart responds:
>
>> Why would you even care if it doesn't cost you anything? I would
>>think that anyone spending money in an economy with high fuel prices
>>would excite someone who depends on consumer spending to make their
>>living. Your audience is slowly but surely dying off. You should
>>embrace anyone whom has the money to buy anything. Woodworking is not a
>>hobby for the faint of heart or paycheck to paycheck type of individual.
>>While machinery may be cheap, after market sales aren't. The dolt you
>>so proudly speak of, could quite well be a customer of the people who
>>pay you to write the articles you do.
>
> Well, as a start, it doesn't cost me anything at the moment, but it is
> going to cost my grandchildren and their children something.
What is it going to cost them?
> The waste is
> not in petroleum alone, but in steel,
Which is recyclable.
> aluminum,
Which is recyclable.
> plastics,
Another way of saying "oil".
> leather
Give me a _break_. I guess we shouldn't eat either either lest our
descendants suffer a shortage of beef. Or are you not aware that leather
comes off the same cow as your Big Mac.
> and rubber,
AKA tree sap grown commercially on plantations.
> among other materials. Actually, I'd guess that a check of pricing
> on a pair of shoes might find some upward tension based on the use of a
> great deal of leather in the huge number of luxury vehicles now being
> turned out. Might not, too, but it's possible.
And of course there's no "upward tension" from leather coats and furniture
and so on? Most of the price of shoes at the low end is labor and at the
high end is image.
> I don't embrace "anyone who has the money to buy anything" but you're
> welcome to do so. The thought tends to make me gag.
>
> Woodworking is not a hobby for the...paycheck to paycheck type? Nice of
> you to
> let us know. Woodworking is a hobby for anyone who desires to work wood,
> and great expenditures of money are a nice thing for some, but are a long
> way from being an essential of the hobby.
>
> And the dolt I spoke of, not proudly, as he is not mine, nor am I proud of
> his asininity, may well be a customer of the people for whom I write
> articles. So what? This isn't Woodcraft. Are you going to run and tell
> every editor in the U.S. that Charlie Self thinks energy pigs are dolts?
No, but I'm going to filter everthing that you write through the awareness
that you think that we need to conserve cowskin against future need. And
if enough others do that you become a laughingstock.
That is one of the funniest things I've read in a while though. Ranks right
up there with "never give your phone number to anybody who calls you on the
phone".
> Whoopee.
>
> Charlie Self
> "If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he
> gave it to." Dorothy Parker
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> other materials. Actually, I'd guess that a check of pricing on a pair of
shoes
> might find some upward tension based on the use of a great deal of leather
in
> the huge number of luxury vehicles now being turned out. Might not, too,
but
> it's possible.
I've wondered about all the leather being used today in automobiles and
even home furniture. I wonder if the pricing is low compared to 20 years
ago because of the proliferation of McDonalds and the like. After making
burgers, those outer cow packages have to be used for something. Next time
you pass through the drive-up window you could be ordering kin of your
seats.
Ed
In article <[email protected]>, WD <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Why ride bicycles or worry when the day of reckoning is a little further away
> and the 2nd coming of Christ maybe just around the corner? :-)
That you G.W.?
--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design.
<http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com>
<http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html>
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Charlie Self) wrote:
> That makes me think of the dolt I saw on TV a couple weeks ago. We were in one
> of our periodic "three bucks a gallon is coming" spurts, so the interviewer
> asked this guy, who was gassing up one of the largest SUVs made, if the costly
> gas would change his habits. His answer, paraphrased but close, was: We're
> Americans and this is how we live.
>
> People like that make you wonder how they lived to grow up even as far as they
> did.
I've seen "news" interviews with folks around my area and have witnessed
the same comments. Asked if the prices will impact their Memorial
weekend activities, they said something on the order of, "No. Whatever
the price I'll pay it." I couldn't believe what I was hearing. The
prices have risen about 30% and they are definitely having an impact on
my wallet and activities.
As we all know, there's a saying that things are priced at what the
market will bear. Well, if the public accepts $2.25 (our local prices)
then that's what we'll be charged. There's little to no competition in
gasoline sales any longer - most are owned by just a couple large corps
that control the marketplace. Senator Wyden has done extensive studies
on the oil industry and firmly believes they are colluding and
manipulating but has had a difficult time pinning them to the wall as
the oil industry is stretching and bending the law just enough to avoid
legal action. It's pretty clear though they're running their businesses
unethically.
Washington and Oregon get a majority of their gasoline from Alaskan
crude yet anytime there's a blip on production in other parts of the
country or world our prices are driven upward. It's a convenient excuse
and the public just keeps on buying.
--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design.
<http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com>
<http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html>
In article <[email protected]>, Lew
Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:
> It has always been about the control the oil baby. Still is.
If that's true, then why has the US continued to support Israel and
piss off the Arab oil nations for decades?
If it was "all about OOOOOIIIIIILLLLLL" then the simplest thing would
be for the US to withdraw support from Israel and get preferential
treatment from the Arab nations in OPEC.
And why has the US gummint consistently said the oil wealth of Iraq
will return to the Iraqi people, and demonstrated that they mean it? It
would be a hell of a lot easier, if it was "all about oil" to occupy
Iraq and simply take it, n'est ce pas?
There's an interesting piece, with more interesting graphs, indicating
where the oil interests in the Middle East lie, here:
<http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/2004_06_01_belmontclub_archive.html#108
721924564569760>
The US gets only about 20% of its oil from the Persian Gulf, if these
stats are believable.
We in Canada export more oil and gas energy to the US than the Middle
East does. I'd love it if that percentage increased, it might offset
the losses we're suffering because we're better at producing grain,
softwood lumber (OBWW) and livestock than US producers, and hence
continue to fight unjustified trade disputes.
But what do I know? I could be wrong...
djb
Owen Lowe responds:
>I've seen "news" interviews with folks around my area and have witnessed
>the same comments. Asked if the prices will impact their Memorial
>weekend activities, they said something on the order of, "No. Whatever
>the price I'll pay it." I couldn't believe what I was hearing. The
>prices have risen about 30% and they are definitely having an impact on
>my wallet and activities.
I wish it have a slowing affect on mine, but I just turned in the moving truck,
which sucked almost $77 worth of gas to go 340 miles. Something well under 10
MPG. Truck is almost new but is a really nasty machine. Plenty of power, but
twitchy as hell, tires are out of balance, etc. Not fun to drive.
>As we all know, there's a saying that things are priced at what the
>market will bear. Well, if the public accepts $2.25 (our local prices)
>then that's what we'll be charged.
Lowest price around here is $1.71.9, but it ranges up to $1.89.9.
>Senator Wyden has done extensive studies
>on the oil industry and firmly believes they are colluding and
>manipulating but has had a difficult time pinning them to the wall as
>the oil industry is stretching and bending the law just enough to avoid
>legal action. It's pretty clear though they're running their businesses
>unethically.
>
I've always been astonished at how the prices at the pump jump 2 days after the
price of oil at the wellhead rises, weeks in advance of any of that oil being
refined and sent out to stations. Another source of astonishment has been the
fact that for a couple decades, there has a refinery fire or pipeline problems
that cut the oil flow just at the height of the season, resulting in a jump in
prices.
Oil companies saying they're doing nothing wrong is about like local TV
stations claiming they don't turn the sound up during commercials.
Charlie Self
"If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave
it to." Dorothy Parker
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:35:24 -0400, Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
>It's beautiful having an oil man in the Whitehouse, ain't it.
Correction, two oil men and one oil women.
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:28:58 -0400, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>Do you price your materials at your acquisition cost or replacement cost?
When I'm selling, I like LIFO.
When I'm buying, I like FIFO.
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
George wrote:
> Absolutely, though as anyone who took the time to think would have known
> this, I feel your facts will not influence their "truth."
>
> As to sound levels, I did the transmitters, but I always felt those boys
> back at the board in the studio were jerking the audio around just to
> frustrate me.
Years ago the audio and video feeds to the local stations used to be
separate facilities and they could control the audio levels ( I used to have
to do the adjustments on the "backbones" in Buffalo). Since the network
feeds went to satellite the audio and video are carried on the same signal.
I could be wrong, but unless the commercial is local I don't think the
stations can control the audio level.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
Do you price your materials at your acquisition cost or replacement cost?
Don't worry too much about refinery problems, we haven't added any in the US
in years - dirty and stinky, you know.
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> I've always been astonished at how the prices at the pump jump 2 days
after the
> price of oil at the wellhead rises, weeks in advance of any of that oil
being
> refined and sent out to stations. Another source of astonishment has been
the
> fact that for a couple decades, there has a refinery fire or pipeline
problems
> that cut the oil flow just at the height of the season, resulting in a
jump in
> prices.
Absolutely, though as anyone who took the time to think would have known
this, I feel your facts will not influence their "truth."
As to sound levels, I did the transmitters, but I always felt those boys
back at the board in the studio were jerking the audio around just to
frustrate me.
"Robert Bonomi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I dunno why it would surprise you. It *is* simple business economics.
> The principle is 'pricing current inventory at _replacement_ cost'.
>
ETC, SNIP
TV? Oh, sorry, I was a radio guy. Sadly, old enough to have worked even
AM.
"BruceR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Nova wrote:
> > George wrote:
> >>As to sound levels, I did the transmitters, but I always felt those boys
> >>back at the board in the studio were jerking the audio around just to
> >>frustrate me.
> >
> >
> > Years ago the audio and video feeds to the local stations used to be
> > separate facilities and they could control the audio levels ( I used to
have
> > to do the adjustments on the "backbones" in Buffalo). Since the network
> > feeds went to satellite the audio and video are carried on the same
signal.
> > I could be wrong, but unless the commercial is local I don't think the
> > stations can control the audio level.
> >
> > --
> > Jack Novak
> > Buffalo, NY - USA
> > (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
> >
> >
>
> Also, the typical audio track of commercials is highly compressed. The
> result is that when you have your sets volume adjusted for a wider
> dynamic range of audio (usually turned up), a compressed signal will
> sound a lot louder than what you were watching. Many sets have a choice
> of audio decoding options stashed somewhere in a setup menu. You can
> usally play with these to reduce the effect.
>
> -Bruce
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
Nova wrote:
> George wrote:
>
>
>>Absolutely, though as anyone who took the time to think would have known
>>this, I feel your facts will not influence their "truth."
>>
>>As to sound levels, I did the transmitters, but I always felt those boys
>>back at the board in the studio were jerking the audio around just to
>>frustrate me.
>
>
> Years ago the audio and video feeds to the local stations used to be
> separate facilities and they could control the audio levels ( I used to have
> to do the adjustments on the "backbones" in Buffalo). Since the network
> feeds went to satellite the audio and video are carried on the same signal.
> I could be wrong, but unless the commercial is local I don't think the
> stations can control the audio level.
>
> --
> Jack Novak
> Buffalo, NY - USA
> (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
>
>
Also, the typical audio track of commercials is highly compressed. The
result is that when you have your sets volume adjusted for a wider
dynamic range of audio (usually turned up), a compressed signal will
sound a lot louder than what you were watching. Many sets have a choice
of audio decoding options stashed somewhere in a setup menu. You can
usally play with these to reduce the effect.
-Bruce
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
In article <[email protected]>,
Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:
>Owen Lowe responds:
>
>>I've seen "news" interviews with folks around my area and have witnessed
>>the same comments. Asked if the prices will impact their Memorial
>>weekend activities, they said something on the order of, "No. Whatever
>>the price I'll pay it." I couldn't believe what I was hearing. The
>>prices have risen about 30% and they are definitely having an impact on
>>my wallet and activities.
>
>I wish it have a slowing affect on mine, but I just turned in the moving truck,
>which sucked almost $77 worth of gas to go 340 miles. Something well under 10
>MPG. Truck is almost new but is a really nasty machine. Plenty of power, but
>twitchy as hell, tires are out of balance, etc. Not fun to drive.
>
>>As we all know, there's a saying that things are priced at what the
>>market will bear. Well, if the public accepts $2.25 (our local prices)
>>then that's what we'll be charged.
>
>Lowest price around here is $1.71.9, but it ranges up to $1.89.9.
>
>>Senator Wyden has done extensive studies
>>on the oil industry and firmly believes they are colluding and
>>manipulating but has had a difficult time pinning them to the wall as
>>the oil industry is stretching and bending the law just enough to avoid
>>legal action. It's pretty clear though they're running their businesses
>>unethically.
>>
>I've always been astonished at how the prices at the pump jump 2 days after the
>price of oil at the wellhead rises, weeks in advance of any of that oil being
>refined and sent out to stations.
I dunno why it would surprise you. It *is* simple business economics.
The principle is 'pricing current inventory at _replacement_ cost'.
If you _don't_ do that (but continue to price at 'acquisition cost'), then,
in a period of rising prices, you have to come up with, from 'somewhere', the
_additional_capital_investment_ necessary to maintain your inventory.
That means that the debt-service burden increases. And that one then has
to raise prices to cover both the increased cost of inventory, _and_ something
to defray the additional debt-service cost.
Basically, it's a choice between raising prices 'some now', or 'more later'.
> Another source of astonishment has been the
>fact that for a couple decades, there has a refinery fire or pipeline problems
>that cut the oil flow just at the height of the season, resulting in a jump in
>prices.
Note: those are, _by_no_means_, the only times that those kind of problems
occur.
Such events _do_ tend to be somewhat more frequent at 'peak demand' times, and
at those times, the impact _is_ larger than at non-peak times.
Additionally, the off-peak events do not get the general press notice that
ones occurring during peak times do. They don't affect the end-user market
to any significant degree, so they're simply not 'newsworthy'. So, the
only ones that the public hears about are the ones that affect prices,
mostly during the peak season.
There _is_, however, a rational explanation for the 'why' of it, that does
not involve any dishonesty/malicious-manipulation by the oil companies.
There simply is *not* a significant amount of 'reserve', or 'excess' capacity
in the system. This means that at 'peak' times, _everything_ is being
utilized. Including the 'older', and 'temperamental', systems that are more
prone to breakdowns. In off-peak times, there _is_ 'excess' capacity, and
when 'something' breaks, a 'something else', that had been sitting idle,
is available to take over the load -- without adversely affecting overall
production. However, at the peaks, there _is_ _no_ "'something else' sitting
idle" to fill in, and total output thus suffers.
It's a balancing act, between -having- (and PAYING FOR) 'reserve capacity',
which increases the cost _all_ the time, or suffering the 'blips' when
something happens during 'peak' times.
>
>Oil companies saying they're doing nothing wrong is about like local TV
>stations claiming they don't turn the sound up during commercials.
News flash: The TV stations do _not_ turn the sound up during the
commercials. Commercials 'sound' louder, because the producers of
the commercial play games (audio compression) with the sound track,
to boost the _average_ audio level, while keeping the peaks at the
same level.
'Station' sound levels are always set to keep the _peaks_ under the
maximum that the equipment can handle.
[I've got professional experience in both 'station operations' and production
of commercials.]
Confirming that that is "what's actually going on" requires nothing more
than a cheap oscilloscope, hooked up to the audio output of a TV.
Several TV manufacturers -- Maganavox, for one -- have been making sets
for at least 10 years with 'automatic volume control' built in. EVEN
on those sets, the commercials 'sound' louder. Because the AVC works
on the 'peak' levels, not the 'average'.
Bob Bonomi writes:
>News flash: The TV stations do _not_ turn the sound up during the
> commercials. Commercials 'sound' louder, because the producers of
> the commercial play games (audio compression) with the sound track,
> to boost the _average_ audio level, while keeping the peaks at the
> same level.
>
> 'Station' sound levels are always set to keep the _peaks_ under the
> maximum that the equipment can handle.
>
>[I've got professional experience in both 'station operations' and production
> of commercials.]
>
>Confirming that that is "what's actually going on" requires nothing more
>than a cheap oscilloscope, hooked up to the audio output of a TV
In Parkersburg, listening to WTAP, you do NOT need an oscilloscope. Ears work
fine. The sound variations during programs are almost as bad as those during
the commercials, but the commercials always err on the up side of the scale.
Possibly, it's the cable company, but I'm inclined to doubt it because those
in-program bounces do not occur on other stations.
Charlie Self
"If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave
it to." Dorothy Parker
In article <[email protected]>,
Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:
>Bob Bonomi writes:
>
>>News flash: The TV stations do _not_ turn the sound up during the
>> commercials. Commercials 'sound' louder, because the producers of
>> the commercial play games (audio compression) with the sound track,
>> to boost the _average_ audio level, while keeping the peaks at the
>> same level.
>>
>> 'Station' sound levels are always set to keep the _peaks_ under the
>> maximum that the equipment can handle.
>>
>>[I've got professional experience in both 'station operations' and production
>> of commercials.]
>>
>>Confirming that that is "what's actually going on" requires nothing more
>>than a cheap oscilloscope, hooked up to the audio output of a TV
>
>In Parkersburg, listening to WTAP, you do NOT need an oscilloscope. Ears work
>fine. The sound variations during programs are almost as bad as those during
>the commercials, but the commercials always err on the up side of the scale.
>
>Possibly, it's the cable company, but I'm inclined to doubt it because those
>in-program bounces do not occur on other stations.
>
Cable companies _are_ notorious for inserting their own commercials over
what was on the feed. It gets really funny, when their time-sync is
out of step, and you get a couple of seconds of the 'feed' commercial
before the local cut-over.
And _most_ are operated so far 'on the cheap' that they can't be bothered
to balance the signal levels (audio _or_ video) between the different
feeds. when things are 'done right', you should *not* have to adjust
the picture or the audio, just because you change cable channels. As
they say, "so much for the theory."
On 17 Jun 2004 21:45:26 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>
>Lowest price around here is $1.71.9, but it ranges up to $1.89.9.
I paid $2.08 this morning, which is down from a high of $2.16 about
ten days ago.
It's beautiful having an oil man in the Whitehouse, ain't it.
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
"Tom Watson" writes:
> I paid $2.08 this morning, which is down from a high of $2.16 about
> ten days ago.
>
> It's beautiful having an oil man in the Whitehouse, ain't it.
Try SoCal pricing.
Lowest price is about $2.19 which is a drop of about $0.08 from last week
for self serve.
Personally, I'd like to see it hit about $7-$8/gal.
Bet that would be a little motivation to get serious about weaning the US
from foreign oil dependence.
An oil man in the White House?
Yep, let's see how much longer the will try to hide behind WMD.
It has always been about the control the oil baby. Still is.
Lew
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 01:53:48 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email
>Personally, I'd like to see it hit about $7-$8/gal.
>
>Bet that would be a little motivation to get serious about weaning the US
>from foreign oil dependence.
Well Oz pays up to $5/gallon........ah! hang on.....6 pint
gallon...say $3.50/gallon
Does anyone recall that the "oil man" ran against a guy who thought the best
way to promote conservation was to tax gasoline to that level? Even wrote
in a book about it. Funny thing about those forced conservationists is
they expect other people to do the tough work, like find some other way for
the suburbanites to get to work, the goods to market, and redistribute the
wealth gained from such taxes to minimize the effect on "the poor" and
reward the deserving, normally defined as those most likely to vote for the
politician. Of course to those who work for a living, there appears to be
little difference between $3/gal gasoline price created by taxes or
shortages. Except, of course, the warm feeling you get knowing that you've
helped conserve for the children.
I've got a 35 mile drive to the grocery store, so I go once a week and make
the round of stores just like the old farmers. I'll be on the road by nine
today.
"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >Well Oz pays up to $5/gallon........ah! hang on.....6 pint
> >gallon...say $3.50/gallon
>
> How much of that is tax? It sure sounds like a regressive way to colllect
> money.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
> >>Senator Wyden has done extensive studies
> >>on the oil industry and firmly believes they are colluding and
> >>manipulating but has had a difficult time pinning them to the wall as
> >>the oil industry is stretching and bending the law just enough to avoid
> >>legal action. It's pretty clear though they're running their businesses
> >>unethically.
> >>
> >I've always been astonished at how the prices at the pump jump 2 days after
> >the
> >price of oil at the wellhead rises, weeks in advance of any of that oil
> >being
> >refined and sent out to stations.
>
> I dunno why it would surprise you. It *is* simple business economics.
> The principle is 'pricing current inventory at _replacement_ cost'.
>
> If you _don't_ do that (but continue to price at 'acquisition cost'), then,
> in a period of rising prices, you have to come up with, from 'somewhere', the
> _additional_capital_investment_ necessary to maintain your inventory.
But the kicker in the NW is that something on the order of 80+% of our
gasoline comes from points north yet any time there's a refinery problem
in California our prices jump a few cents or a nickel. To the average
Owen, it looks like, "any excuse'll do."
--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design.
<http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com>
<http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html>
On 17 Jun 2004 21:45:26 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
[snip]
|
|Lowest price around here is $1.71.9, but it ranges up to $1.89.9.
Oh you whiners [g].
Look what I paid a coupla months ago.
http://users.triconet.org/wesandlinda/Ouch.jpg
Wes
Wes responds:
>On 17 Jun 2004 21:45:26 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
>wrote:
>
>[snip]
>|
>|Lowest price around here is $1.71.9, but it ranges up to $1.89.9.
>
>Oh you whiners [g].
>
>Look what I paid a coupla months ago.
>
>http://users.triconet.org/wesandlinda/Ouch.jpg
Ouch! To coin a something or other. I have a friend in mid-Cal and another in
Nevada who have both told me they were paying $2.39.9 recently, and in
Parkersburg, WV I recently paid $1.95.9, which is enough. It had gone up to
$2.03.9 in P'burg earlier.
Charlie Self
"If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave
it to." Dorothy Parker
In article <[email protected]>, "George" <george@least>
wrote:
> If it were any more than a than a drop in the ocean of dunnage, charcoal,
> building materials, etc, I guess I'd worry.
If a million woodworkers change their, "Other uses are much more
destructive than my piddly needs so I'm not going to feel guilty,"
beliefs, the market just might take notice. Also consider the
word-of-mouth effect in raising awareness of the corruption and waste.
On the notion of trading wood, this happens amongst woodturners fairly
regularly. I've send Oregon woods like Western Big Leaf Maple, Claro
Walnut and Filbert to Pennsylvania, Hawaii and Tennessee - in return
I've gotten Koa, Pheasantwood, Locust and Mulberry. The downside is that
turners generally favor green wood and it's a might pricey to ship all
that water. (I claim "book rate" since it's just a book in raw form.)
--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design.
<http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com>
<http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html>
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 23:20:03 +0100, Nicholas <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I'm a cabinet maker in the UK and I know what trouble it makes for me
>to try to buy timber that isn't tainted.
I appreciate and share your concerns, but why is this specifically a
problem for cabinet makers in the UK ? We've plenty of good hardwoods
ourselves, and in the quantities that fine cabinetry consumes it
there's no shortage. I have no trouble finding timber, I usually know
who felled it, and I can often take you back to the very spot it was
felled from. In general I just don't use tropicals - but where I do,
I'm fussy over where it came from.
The timber consumption that worries me isn't at the high end, it's the
low end patio furniture and mangrove-swamp charcoal. Teak furniture,
sold for tuppence and thrown away after Wayne and Dwayne have broken
it by the end of the summer.
--
Smert' spamionam
Mon, Jun 14, 2004, 11:51pm (EDT+5) [email protected]
(Andy=A0Dingley) says:
I appreciate and share your concerns, but why is this specifically a
problem for cabinet makers in the UK ?
I'm not in the UK, but agree, in principle. Enforcement of any
logging laws, etc., is gonna have to be the country of origin.
We've plenty of good hardwoods ourselves, <snip>
Anymore, if I buy any wood, it's from trees native to North
Carolina. Well, I do make an exception for plywood, even tho I'm not
sure where the plywood forest are.
It's more spiritually satisfying to me to only use NC wood, and that
also kills any worry about moral issues on buying illegal, over logged,
or whatever, wood.
Hmm, just had a thought. The wood here isn't exotic to me, but it
would be to someone in another part of the world. Maybe people in
different parts of the world could swap some of their local wood with
people elsewhere, for some of "their" local wood. Might be a bit
expensive in large lots, but I think it'd be neat to be able to make a
small chest, box, or something, with some wood from the UK, Australia,
or Canada, etc., or even to just include some. Especially when you
"know" the person you got it from. Shouldn't cost much for a few board
feet, and I think it'd be well worth the price.
Yep, I figure I can amend my "North Carolina wood only" rule, for a
deal like that.
Damn. I've got some small pieces stuck away, from my own property,
that went down in a hurricaine some years back; dogwood, hickory, oak,
holly, something else. But, I've had plans for it, all this time. I'll
have to check what I've got, and see if I'm willing to give up any of
it, or will have to get some more, for swapping. Damn. LOL
JOAT
Use your brain - it's the small things that count.
WD wrote:
> Does he know exactly where Bornea is, let alone how the State
> look like? I guess he's having personal problems.
He he - I can't imagine that not knowing where it is would
prevent ordering a pre-emptive strike to deal with all those
Woods of Mass Destruction. Probably start the whole thing off
with a schlock and awl display.
Eh? George? Personal problems? No way. When he has real personal
problems, he calls for a constitutional amendment...
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA