There seems to be a major difference between a professional
woodworker (one whose livelyhood is from woodworking) and
a hobbyist who does woodworking for fun/therapy. There are
a lucky few who make a good income from their woodworking,
but they're few and far between.
Here's some of the differences I see. What are some of the
differences you feel are significant?
Do you think the best work comes from the pro or a fanatic
hobbyist?
To the pro, time is money
To the hobbyist time - in the shop - is also valuable, but only
because there may not be much of it available, given all
his/her other demands for time ( kids, spouse, job, friends,
etc..)
-===============
The pro most often makes things for customers who have
particular wants and needs and delivery/installation dates.
The hobbyist may also have people to satisfy but they're
usually less demanding and the design is less constrained/
defined. Deadlines and delivery dates are more geared
towards birthdays, anniversaries and a few holidays.
===================
The pro is more concerned with the function and less
concerned about nuances of the wood, the finish, the
edge treatments etc.
The hobbyist may agonize for weeks over just the wood
selection, another week selecting the grain of key
parts and spend hours getting the edge treatment(s) to
catch the light just so.
======================
The pro will optimize his sheet layout to get the most
ouf of each sheet in order to minimize "waste" and
increase profits.
The hobbyist may "waste" half a board to get that
special grain pattern for a particular piece.
=======================
The pro often specializes in a type of furniture,
case work, solid wood construction, period pieces,
a particular style.
A hobbyist will do all types of woodworking and
may get pretty good at a range of styles, methods
of joining etc..
====================
A pro's goal is the check from the client.
A hobbyist often sees the process/journey as
the goal, the finished piece being just the end
of a particular journey.
=====================
To a pro, wood is just a material with certain
characteristics which lend themselves to making
into saleable pieces.
To a hobbyist, wood may be a magic thing that
may even have its own voice and talks to them.
===================
To the pro, efficiency means profit.
To the hobbyist efficiency may mean using the
wood very well - or using the proper tools
in the right order the right way and maybe
avoiding tear out. Other than that the word has
little meaning
====================
Your thoghts and observations?
charlie b
Paul Kierstead <[email protected]> wrote:
> big snip
> Incidently, in photography very little of the creative wonderful work is
> done by photographers who work for hire.
This is partly true. Photography was so much fun, that I wanted to do it
full time. I wound up with a BA in photography and a career - a dream
come true. At first. I know I didn't do much photography for fun after
my first few years in the profession. But there was always the need to
have new pieces in the portfolio that made the art directors and account
execs go "OOOOOOOOOOOH!" It felt good to be doing something creative,
but it was hard to justify the extra time it took. And those pieces
could seldom just be beautiful, or dramatic, etc but most of them had
to have a commercial connection of some kind - artsy and commercial at
the same time (think Communication Arts magazine). But maybe that's just
me - I finally had my fill of art directors for whom everything was a
life or death emergency. I eventually burned out, sold all my equipment,
and got a job tutoring in a grade school (fun and worth doing).
I seem to have lost track of whatever point I meant to make here. I'm
not sure if I meant to agree or disagree with Paul :-) Must have
something to do with being a burnt out old fart. I know many other
photographers with pretty much the same experience - photography was
still fun but they would never touch a camera unless someone was going
to get a bill for it. I guess the point is the warning to not let a good
hobby be ruined by doing it for a living.
Connecting this to woodworking, it's really nice to go to my shop and
not have to do everything perfectly. Not that I want my dovetails to
look like I chopped them out with a screwdriver, but a little flaw here
or there won't threaten my livelyhood.
Again: don't let a good hobby be ruined by doing it for a living.
David (not really dangerously disgruntled)
charlie b notes:
>There seems to be a major difference between a professional
>woodworker (one whose livelyhood is from woodworking) and
>a hobbyist who does woodworking for fun/therapy. There are
>a lucky few who make a good income from their woodworking,
>but they're few and far between.
>
>Here's some of the differences I see. What are some of the
>differences you feel are significant?
>
>Do you think the best work comes from the pro or a fanatic
>hobbyist?
The pro, but, again, it depends on how you define pro. Do you consider Maaloof
a pro? Of course. Frank Klausz. And so on.
I'm an amateur, for example, and Ernie Conover is a pro. Ernie can out turn me
with him using a treadle lathe and me using the latest and greatest.
>
>
>To the pro, time is money
>
>To the hobbyist time - in the shop - is also valuable, but only
>because there may not be much of it available, given all
>his/her other demands for time ( kids, spouse, job, friends,
>etc..)
>-===============
This time thing is probably an even split. The pro won't want to waste time,
because it costs too much. The amateur won't want to waste time because it
costs too much...in terms of lifestyle, and that is, ultimately, what happens
in both cases.
>
>The pro most often makes things for customers who have
>particular wants and needs and delivery/installation dates.
>
>The hobbyist may also have people to satisfy but they're
>usually less demanding and the design is less constrained/
>defined. Deadlines and delivery dates are more geared
>towards birthdays, anniversaries and a few holidays.
>===================
Deadlines shouldn't be that bothersome for the pro who knows when he, or she,
will be able to finish something. The hobbyist often doesn't have a clue as to
how long some process will take...and like too many hobbyists, is probably
putting off building the 73 blurfls for Christmas because he (or she) hates
doing that many of the same thing.
>
>The pro is more concerned with the function and less
>concerned about nuances of the wood, the finish, the
>edge treatments etc.
I don't think so. Pros are probably more likely to see right away how a piece
of wood will best accept a project.
>
>The hobbyist may agonize for weeks over just the wood
>selection, another week selecting the grain of key
>parts and spend hours getting the edge treatment(s) to
>catch the light just so.
>======================
>
>The pro will optimize his sheet layout to get the most
>ouf of each sheet in order to minimize "waste" and
>increase profits.
>
>The hobbyist may "waste" half a board to get that
>special grain pattern for a particular piece.
>=======================
>
>The pro often specializes in a type of furniture,
>case work, solid wood construction, period pieces,
>a particular style.
>
>A hobbyist will do all types of woodworking and
>may get pretty good at a range of styles, methods
>of joining etc..
>====================
>
>A pro's goal is the check from the client.
>
>A hobbyist often sees the process/journey as
>the goal, the finished piece being just the end
>of a particular journey.
>=====================
>
>To a pro, wood is just a material with certain
>characteristics which lend themselves to making
>into saleable pieces.
>
I'm betting this one is even. Even mediocre cabinetmakers enjoy working with
wood, IME.
>To a hobbyist, wood may be a magic thing that
>may even have its own voice and talks to them.
>===================
>
>To the pro, efficiency means profit.
>
>To the hobbyist efficiency may mean using the
>wood very well - or using the proper tools
>in the right order the right way and maybe
>avoiding tear out. Other than that the word has
>little meaning
Another even split. Efficiency certainly adds to profit, but very few pros are
in woodworking JUST for the profit. I mean, hell, you can make better money
dealing blackjack in Atlantic City for the most part.
I like the list, but like all generalizations, especially compounded
generalizations, it's difficult to divine a truth from group. I've seen pros
who do abyssmal work and amateurs who do even worse because they know even
less. And I've seen the reverse, with both turning out great work. For most of
us, the middle is where we're stuck.
Charlie Self
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." Disraeli as
quoted by Mark Twain
On Mon, 03 May 2004 10:17:44 -0700, charlie b <[email protected]>
wrote:
>There seems to be a major difference between a professional
>woodworker (one whose livelyhood is from woodworking) and
>a hobbyist who does woodworking for fun/therapy. There are
>a lucky few who make a good income from their woodworking,
>but they're few and far between.
>
>Here's some of the differences I see. What are some of the
>differences you feel are significant?
>
>Do you think the best work comes from the pro or a fanatic
>hobbyist?
>
>
>To the pro, time is money
>
>To the hobbyist time - in the shop - is also valuable, but only
>because there may not be much of it available, given all
>his/her other demands for time ( kids, spouse, job, friends,
>etc..)
Woodworking has been both my vocation and avocation over many years.
As a professional I served that cruel master, Time. Time is the true
difference between the amateur and the professional. The amateur has
but one master; excellence.
The pro must learn to achieve excellence within the time frame. I
remember reading about Toshio Odate giving a joinery seminar. He took
his time, so that the folks could see how he went about things. Then
he did the same complicated piece of joinery in about two seconds flat
- because that's how fast you have to do it if you are a pro.
As I recall, the joinery looked the same - slow or fast.
>-===============
>
>The pro most often makes things for customers who have
>particular wants and needs and delivery/installation dates.
>
>The hobbyist may also have people to satisfy but they're
>usually less demanding and the design is less constrained/
>defined. Deadlines and delivery dates are more geared
>towards birthdays, anniversaries and a few holidays.
Most pros that I have known, including myself, ultimately work to
their own design. They meet with the customer to ask them what sort
of thing they might want - but they are paying very careful attention
to what the furnishings are in the rest of the room and the entire
home.
Having gained an insight into the tendencies of the customer, the pro
will create an initial sketch, based on what he has observed. He and
the client will go over the sketch and then the craftsman will make a
set of drawings and specifications. It is at this point that the
design becomes "constrained". It is constrained and clearly defined
to the benefit of both parties. But the essence of the design process
is free.
>===================
>
>The pro is more concerned with the function and less
>concerned about nuances of the wood, the finish, the
>edge treatments etc.
>
>The hobbyist may agonize for weeks over just the wood
>selection, another week selecting the grain of key
>parts and spend hours getting the edge treatment(s) to
>catch the light just so.
It would be instructive to watch a pro sort through his lumber stacks.
Let's say he gets in a mixed load of FAS and #1 Common Cherry. The
pro is going to select the mild stuff out for his door frames and
such, that has to be and stay straight. He's going to pick through
the more awkward wood because it is often the case that the most
interesting figure is to be found there. But he knows that this
figure comes at a price - it can't be used for structure but rather
for appearance.
When starting a job I would often stand every stick of wood that I had
ordered (with a fifty percent waste factor) around the perimeter of
the shop. Then I would move boards around and get them into groups,
based on their final use. This selection process is one of the great
differences between custom cabinetry and off the rack stuff.
The finish in my shop was almost always nitro lacquer. Will I
experiment more with other finishes now that I have regained my
amateur status? Yah, you betcha - but there ain't nothing wrong with
that nitro finish.
The edge treatments are part of the jewelry set of the design. Mass
and proportion are the underpinnings. Joinery and worked surfaces are
the jewelry. They really can't be separated. I won't say that the
pro will agonize over the selection of profiles - it's just that he
knows, almost by instinct, what goes with what. A real pro is a great
accessorize with the best of them.
>======================
>
>The pro will optimize his sheet layout to get the most
>ouf of each sheet in order to minimize "waste" and
>increase profits.
>
>The hobbyist may "waste" half a board to get that
>special grain pattern for a particular piece.
A pro usually has some extra wood lying about. There's usually a
mental inventory of just what is stuck in the nooks and crannies of
the shop. Also, a pro will select out interesting sticks that come
into the shop that aren't needed for a particular project - but will
be remembered when it is time to give a little pop to something. When
sheet goods are used, they are often Sequence Matched and Numbered -
and the intent is to bring unity to a large installation. Highly
figured surfaces are usually done in the solid or laid up with veneer.
>=======================
>
>The pro often specializes in a type of furniture,
>case work, solid wood construction, period pieces,
>a particular style.
>
>A hobbyist will do all types of woodworking and
>may get pretty good at a range of styles, methods
>of joining etc..
Many pro have careers that span decades that can be broken up roughly
into periods, wherein they do what suits them best during that period.
I've made International Style stuff and Colonial stuff and Traditional
stuff and just some plain old Wild-Assed Design stuff. A craftsman
usually gets noted for a particular thing - but I've known guys who
spend all day making kitchen cabinets and then make Art Furniture in
their spare time.
>====================
>
>A pro's goal is the check from the client.
>
>A hobbyist often sees the process/journey as
>the goal, the finished piece being just the end
>of a particular journey.
Yes. The pro must earn his living through his work. But most of
those I've known who were any good - could be making a hell of a lot
more money by doing something else. Everyone needs money. Most pros
have decided to accept a little or a lot less money in order to
something they love.
>=====================
>
>To a pro, wood is just a material with certain
>characteristics which lend themselves to making
>into saleable pieces.
>
>To a hobbyist, wood may be a magic thing that
>may even have its own voice and talks to them.
Every pro that I have ever known got into professional woodworking so
that he could spend more time with wood - and making things out of
wood. Go into a pro shop some time and ask to look at the owner's
private stash - the stuff that he saves for when he'll get a chance to
make something for the people he loves. Watch the way that man
handles the sticks as he shows them to you. Might make you wanna
change your thinking.
>===================
>
>To the pro, efficiency means profit.
>
>To the hobbyist efficiency may mean using the
>wood very well - or using the proper tools
>in the right order the right way and maybe
>avoiding tear out. Other than that the word has
>little meaning
Let's change the word "efficiency" to "optimality". The pro will
optimize the use of his time, tools and wood. He follows the "least
effort theory" in production but does not sacrifice final appearance
and a general sense of design, proportion, balance, structural
integrity and visual impact - on the altar of "efficiency". He
designs, bids and builds in such a way as to hold true to the
fundamentals of his creed - which is to say that he came up with a
design, which he believes that the customer will like, and which he
believes is worth lending his efforts to - he prices his work so that
he can afford to incorporate the elements that will make the design
sing - he will make enough money to support his family - but will
never make so much as he could have, taking his artistic sense, his
organiazational skills, his ability to work long hours in pursuit of a
goal - on to some other venue.
>====================
>
>Your thoghts and observations?
Well, you got 'em. And they're worth just about what you paid for
them.
>
>charlie b
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
one analogy that may or may not fit...
you can work as a cook at a dennys or sherri's or whatever for 20 years.
and you would probably be considered a professional cook. but you dont
really have 20 years of experience. you have about 2 years of experience,
10 times.
so what im saying is if the pro makes nothing but picture frames, he may be
a professional, but probably doesnt know as much about 'woodworking' as an
enthusiastic hobbyist.
anyway, just an observation.
randy
"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> There seems to be a major difference between a professional
> woodworker (one whose livelyhood is from woodworking) and
> a hobbyist who does woodworking for fun/therapy. There are
> a lucky few who make a good income from their woodworking,
> but they're few and far between.
>
> Here's some of the differences I see. What are some of the
> differences you feel are significant?
>
> Do you think the best work comes from the pro or a fanatic
> hobbyist?
>
>
> To the pro, time is money
>
> To the hobbyist time - in the shop - is also valuable, but only
> because there may not be much of it available, given all
> his/her other demands for time ( kids, spouse, job, friends,
> etc..)
> -===============
>
> The pro most often makes things for customers who have
> particular wants and needs and delivery/installation dates.
>
> The hobbyist may also have people to satisfy but they're
> usually less demanding and the design is less constrained/
> defined. Deadlines and delivery dates are more geared
> towards birthdays, anniversaries and a few holidays.
> ===================
>
> The pro is more concerned with the function and less
> concerned about nuances of the wood, the finish, the
> edge treatments etc.
>
> The hobbyist may agonize for weeks over just the wood
> selection, another week selecting the grain of key
> parts and spend hours getting the edge treatment(s) to
> catch the light just so.
> ======================
>
> The pro will optimize his sheet layout to get the most
> ouf of each sheet in order to minimize "waste" and
> increase profits.
>
> The hobbyist may "waste" half a board to get that
> special grain pattern for a particular piece.
> =======================
>
> The pro often specializes in a type of furniture,
> case work, solid wood construction, period pieces,
> a particular style.
>
> A hobbyist will do all types of woodworking and
> may get pretty good at a range of styles, methods
> of joining etc..
> ====================
>
> A pro's goal is the check from the client.
>
> A hobbyist often sees the process/journey as
> the goal, the finished piece being just the end
> of a particular journey.
> =====================
>
> To a pro, wood is just a material with certain
> characteristics which lend themselves to making
> into saleable pieces.
>
> To a hobbyist, wood may be a magic thing that
> may even have its own voice and talks to them.
> ===================
>
> To the pro, efficiency means profit.
>
> To the hobbyist efficiency may mean using the
> wood very well - or using the proper tools
> in the right order the right way and maybe
> avoiding tear out. Other than that the word has
> little meaning
> ====================
>
> Your thoghts and observations?
>
> charlie b
On Mon, 03 May 2004 10:17:44 -0700, charlie b <[email protected]>
wrote:
>The pro will optimize his sheet layout to get the most
>ouf of each sheet in order to minimize "waste" and
>increase profits.
>
>The hobbyist may "waste" half a board to get that
>special grain pattern for a particular piece.
The "pro" has 200 boards waiting in the stacks and can pick and
choose. If there's half a board "wasted", so what ? The shop does
enough volume that some job will turn up later that can make efficient
use of it.
The hobbyist just doesn't have the storage space for this kind of
choice.
"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> There seems to be a major difference between a professional
> woodworker (one whose livelyhood is from woodworking) and
> a hobbyist who does woodworking for fun/therapy. There are
> a lucky few who make a good income from their woodworking,
> but they're few and far between.
>
> Here's some of the differences I see. What are some of the
> differences you feel are significant?
>
> Do you think the best work comes from the pro or a fanatic
> hobbyist?
[snip]
Very nice to see someone come out with these perspectives,
as a future hobbyist-slash-amature* (thanks to CF) I really
appreciate seeing the working differences between the two
types. And it teaches me how to think about being the new
hobbyist, as about to become into the learning state, hence; I
am "fetus of neander-tal" in this field.
Even if you may have intended a touch of arrogance, of
which I do not know and am not the judge, it has still
been a "teaching-read", so thanks.
Alex
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Charlie Self) wrote:
> >Do you think the best work comes from the pro or a fanatic
> >hobbyist?
>
> The pro, but, again, it depends on how you define pro. Do you consider Maaloof
> a pro? Of course. Frank Klausz. And so on.
>
> I'm an amateur, for example, and Ernie Conover is a pro. Ernie can out turn me
> with him using a treadle lathe and me using the latest and greatest.
I have been giving this a lot of though lately, more from the
perspective of photography then woodworking, but there too.
I am not 100% some of these guys are really "Professional Furniture
Makers". Many of the greats taught, wrote books, give workshops, speak,
etc. Often they get grants to work. The fact is that many probably could
not sell their pieces for a high enough price to warrant the effort and
cost that went into them, even with the stratospheric prices. It really
does depend on how you define "Professional" I guess.
I have had a lot of contact with pro's growing up (my father was a
finish carpenter and I was a helper for some time). Most were very very
good in an extremely limited way. For example, my father had a few guys
he contracted kitchen doors from. They made nice doors. I have my doubts
that any of them could raise a panel by hand, or make any door that
didn't have a cope/stick set for it. I expect most could barely use a
hand plane. But they could turn out lovely doors for a good price so
long as they fit into a particular "mold". They weren't terribly
creative. Of course, there are some pro's that were the exception, but
not a whole lot of them. And most homeowners didn't really want
something terribly creative or interesting or non-standard. Now
sometimes we would work on a restoration; that was a whole different
ballgame. The guys we worked with then could do some amazing things like
doing bits of moulding to replace old bits, hand-build beautiful doors,
all sorts of nice stuff. And they were very very expensive.
Look at FWW. Many of the authors obviously heavily supplement their
incomes via other methods; workshops, books, tool sales, etc.
I think the real question is: Does it matter? There is no shame in being
an amateur, none at all. There is no pride in being a pro. Either you
build things you can be proud of or you don't, it doesn't matter who is
footing the bill.
Incidently, in photography very little of the creative wonderful work is
done by photographers who work for hire.
Paul Kierstead responds:
>> I'm an amateur, for example, and Ernie Conover is a pro. Ernie can out turn
>me
>> with him using a treadle lathe and me using the latest and greatest.
>
>I have been giving this a lot of though lately, more from the
>perspective of photography then woodworking, but there too.
>
>I am not 100% some of these guys are really "Professional Furniture
>Makers". Many of the greats taught, wrote books, give workshops, speak,
>etc. Often they get grants to work. The fact is that many probably could
>not sell their pieces for a high enough price to warrant the effort and
>cost that went into them, even with the stratospheric prices. It really
>does depend on how you define "Professional" I guess.
I don't think that was the qualifier. Professional woodworkers are not
necessarily furniture makers. Or not entirely so. Doug Stowe is a pro's pro,
but he turns out as much small stuff as he does full scale furniture, with his
boxes and similar items.
>I have had a lot of contact with pro's growing up (my father was a
>finish carpenter and I was a helper for some time). Most were very very
>good in an extremely limited way. For example, my father had a few guys
>he contracted kitchen doors from. They made nice doors. I have my doubts
>that any of them could raise a panel by hand, or make any door that
>didn't have a cope/stick set for it. I expect most could barely use a
>hand plane. But they could turn out lovely doors for a good price so
>long as they fit into a particular "mold". They weren't terribly
>creative. Of course, there are some pro's that were the exception, but
>not a whole lot of them. And most homeowners didn't really want
>something terribly creative or interesting or non-standard. Now
>sometimes we would work on a restoration; that was a whole different
>ballgame. The guys we worked with then could do some amazing things like
>doing bits of moulding to replace old bits, hand-build beautiful doors,
>all sorts of nice stuff. And they were very very expensive.
I'm not really sure that using hand tools is a sign of a pro. We slip into a
classification problem in woodworking. Amateur. Professional. Artisan. Artist.
And the few who are Artistes.
I'm not at all sure where the dividing lines lie. Obviously, a professional
makes all or most of his or her living from woodworking and woodworking related
activities. But an artisan and an artist may do the same.
Restoration is a lot of fun, as well as a lot of work. Replicating old moldings
is a bit easier than you might think, but it is not easy. Developing the tools
is harder than doing the work...but today, a great many of the tools are
sitting right there on Ebay waiting to be bought.
>Look at FWW. Many of the authors obviously heavily supplement their
>incomes via other methods; workshops, books, tool sales, etc.
But it's all woodworking related.
>I think the real question is: Does it matter? There is no shame in being
>an amateur, none at all. There is no pride in being a pro. Either you
>build things you can be proud of or you don't, it doesn't matter who is
>footing the bill.
There should be no shame attached to being an amateur. Take the time to learn
and do the best you can and who knows? You might become the Bobby Jones of
woodworking, the all time greatest...and an amateur (course, it helps if you're
rich to start with). Now, I disagree with you on the "no pride in being a pro".
There SHOULD be pride in being a pro, being a person good enough to earn a
living at a wonderful craft, where many people would love to follow, but few
can. But, again, there are levels of professionalism in any such situation.
There are cabinetmakers who should have stayed installers. There are furniture
makers who would make a greater contribution in a millwork factory. But the top
level pro, like the top level in any field, deserve to be proud.
>Incidently, in photography very little of the creative wonderful work is
>done by photographers who work for hire.
I shoot a lot of photos for publication, but I am barely competent compared to
a few pros that I know. I'm learning. I figure the day I turn 85, I'll know
what I wish I'd known at 35. And the same with woodworking.
Charlie Self
"An unfulfilled vocation drains the color from a man's entire existence."
Honore de Balzac
On Mon, 03 May 2004 21:21:39 -0400, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
brought forth from the murky depths:
>On Tue, 04 May 2004 01:11:13 GMT, Paul Kierstead
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>But my point is that ... oh, actually I don't really know what my point
>>is :) Just that in some ways they are not so different from some
>>amateurs or semi-pros; they are not "turning out" stuff but instead of
>>other things to generate cash so they can pursue work they want to do.
>
><snip>
>This post has reinforced my appreciation for the virtues of the simple
>declarative sentence.
>
>Thank you.
A simple request "Spreak Engrish, Troops!" would have sufficed.
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In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
> This post has reinforced my appreciation for the virtues of the simple
> declarative sentence.
This post has reinforced my appreciation of postings containing useful
comment.
> Thank you.
Any time. How else may I help you?
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Charlie Self) wrote:
> Paul Kierstead responds:
> I don't think that was the qualifier. Professional woodworkers are not
> necessarily furniture makers. Or not entirely so. Doug Stowe is a pro's pro,
> but he turns out as much small stuff as he does full scale furniture, with
> his
> boxes and similar items.
Ugh. I was avoiding the term "cabinet maker" 'cause it has it own set of
issues and promptly missed the box makers, turners (though that is
another world altogether), etc. My mistake of terminology.
But my point is that ... oh, actually I don't really know what my point
is :) Just that in some ways they are not so different from some
amateurs or semi-pros; they are not "turning out" stuff but instead of
other things to generate cash so they can pursue work they want to do.
> I'm not really sure that using hand tools is a sign of a pro. We slip into a
> classification problem in woodworking. Amateur. Professional. Artisan.
> Artist.
> And the few who are Artistes.
Of course. Planman is obviously quite accomplished and I am not sure he
knows about hand *power* tools :) (j/k!). I just have seen so many pros
who basically have a very narrow skill set.
> There should be no shame attached to being an amateur. Take the time to learn
> and do the best you can and who knows? You might become the Bobby Jones of
> woodworking, the all time greatest...and an amateur (course, it helps if
> you're
> rich to start with).
Well, presumably you make enough stuff, your going to have to sell it
(or give it away to family, if you have enough, I suppose...), so you
will end up being semi-pro at least :)
> Now, I disagree with you on the "no pride in being a
> pro".
> There SHOULD be pride in being a pro, being a person good enough to earn a
> living at a wonderful craft, where many people would love to follow, but few
> can.
I guess the "good enough" part is where I take issue. I am shocked at
the level of work that earns a lot of people money, and not just in
woodworking. There are many ways to get people to part with their money;
being good seems to be one of the lessor known ones. OK, I am cynical
today, but still.
I guess I get depressed for what gets passed off somedays. I understand
what is being sold at Wal-Mart. But I went around to one of our outlying
communities the other day which is a sort of "arts community"; a lot of
artists, craftsman, etc. Lots of "handmade" furniture by pros. 98% of it
was crap. And this was not the first time. Even the stuff that didn't
have awful joints and drawers with 1/4" gaps around it didn't have any
grain matching or attempts to orient the wood in pleasing ways; ending
up having things look lopsided, bowed, etc. But they had dovetailed
drawers, oh yeah, that mark of quality. Of course a good bit of it was
"rustic".
Ever go to a crafts show? Is the title a joke? You will find very little
made by a craftsman. Now if you want a birdhouse knocked togather by
some brads...
How about some really expensive custom kitchen cabinets? I have seen a
lot. It is not worthy of comment.
Of course there is some great professional work out there. One local
cabinet maker, for example, has made my mouth seriously water. I was
tempted to plop the many tens of thousands he would charge. There is a
local guy who makes wonderful windsor chairs and even uses a pole
lathe...of course he teaches workshops too.
I guess I get occasionally a little discouraged at some people who think
less of themselves because they are not pros and think someone who is a
pro should be admired or -- in some cases -- even has a clue. I look at
the work, not who is footing the bill.
> >Incidently, in photography very little of the creative wonderful work is
> >done by photographers who work for hire.
>
> I shoot a lot of photos for publication, but I am barely competent compared
> to
> a few pros that I know. I'm learning. I figure the day I turn 85, I'll know
> what I wish I'd known at 35. And the same with woodworking.
They are extremely competent and lots of them could make almost any
product look great. But would you hang it on your wall? That is what I
was getting at by "creative"...just avoiding the dreaded word "art" :)
PK
On Tue, 04 May 2004 01:11:13 GMT, Paul Kierstead
<[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>
>But my point is that ... oh, actually I don't really know what my point
>is :) Just that in some ways they are not so different from some
>amateurs or semi-pros; they are not "turning out" stuff but instead of
>other things to generate cash so they can pursue work they want to do.
<snip>
This post has reinforced my appreciation for the virtues of the simple
declarative sentence.
Thank you.
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
There are a few things I would like to say in defense of professionals in
response.
"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> There seems to be a major difference between a professional
> woodworker (one whose livelyhood is from woodworking) and
> a hobbyist who does woodworking for fun/therapy. There are
> a lucky few who make a good income from their woodworking,
> but they're few and far between.
>
> Here's some of the differences I see. What are some of the
> differences you feel are significant?
>
> Do you think the best work comes from the pro or a fanatic
> hobbyist?
>
>
> To the pro, time is money
>
> To the hobbyist time - in the shop - is also valuable, but only
> because there may not be much of it available, given all
> his/her other demands for time ( kids, spouse, job, friends,
> etc..)
> -===============
Yes time is money and is also valuable. That is why I have
certain equipment to do certain jobs that is not only cost efficient but
also quality orientated. Also that is why I have taken the time over many
years to learn the most time effective way of achieving these goals. As I
also have other demands for time that are not shop orientated.
> The pro most often makes things for customers who have
> particular wants and needs and delivery/installation dates.
>
> The hobbyist may also have people to satisfy but they're
> usually less demanding and the design is less constrained/
> defined. Deadlines and delivery dates are more geared
> towards birthdays, anniversaries and a few holidays.
> ===================
Deadlines are deadlines either it be for family and friends or for
customers they do not change. I do not sacrifice quality for deadlines I
would rather tell the customer ahead of time that I need more time on a job
rather than sacrifice quality or not take on a job at all if I feel that
there is not enough time in which to complete the project properly by
following the original design.
> The pro is more concerned with the function and less
> concerned about nuances of the wood, the finish, the
> edge treatments etc.
>
> The hobbyist may agonize for weeks over just the wood
> selection, another week selecting the grain of key
> parts and spend hours getting the edge treatment(s) to
> catch the light just so.
> ======================
On this topic I could not disagree more. I take great care and concern to
take the characteristics of the wood involved to produce an astatically
pleasing final product and for it also to be a functional product at the
same time.
> The pro will optimize his sheet layout to get the most
> ouf of each sheet in order to minimize "waste" and
> increase profits.
>
> The hobbyist may "waste" half a board to get that
> special grain pattern for a particular piece.
> =======================
As a Pro I will "optimize" my cuts not for profit only. But mainly for grain
direction quality and colour. The reason being is that I am able to use the
off cuts in other places or in other projects where they are used in places
less conspicuous. I feel it is quite the opposite where a hobbyist will use
a piece of wood in an inappropriate place to save money because of budget
constraints.
> The pro often specializes in a type of furniture,
> case work, solid wood construction, period pieces,
> a particular style.
>
> A hobbyist will do all types of woodworking and
> may get pretty good at a range of styles, methods
> of joining etc..
> ====================
A pro should be versatile and knowledgeable in a wide variety of products
and joinery methods. I have machinery I my shop that dose not get used for
months at a time because it performs a certain function well and is only
used for that function. while a hobbyist will usually have fewer tools that
multifunction and do a fair job of many functions.
> A pro's goal is the check from the client.
>
> A hobbyist often sees the process/journey as
> the goal, the finished piece being just the end
> of a particular journey.
> =====================
My goal is to produce a quality product first and foremost. And
also to be cost effective in the mean time. I find that a hobbyist would
rather spend $200.00 to make a desk that you could buy for $75 just for the
shear pleasure of doing it themselves.
> To a pro, wood is just a material with certain
> characteristics which lend themselves to making
> into saleable pieces.
>
> To a hobbyist, wood may be a magic thing that
> may even have its own voice and talks to them.
> ===================
A pro is someone who is able to bring out the best of certain
characteristics which lend themselves to making into saleable pieces not
just material.
> To the pro, efficiency means profit.
>
> To the hobbyist efficiency may mean using the
> wood very well - or using the proper tools
> in the right order the right way and maybe
> avoiding tear out. Other than that the word has
> little meaning
> ====================
On this one I think you are confusing quality with efficiency. A
pro should be able to produce a quality product free of deficiencies in an
economically efficient time span or he should not be doing it as a pro.
In no way am I saying that the pro is better than the hobbyist
or visa versa. But rather I am saying that there is still enjoyment in
woodworking for both.
When a job just becomes a job and you stop caring about what you
do it is time to move on.
CHRIS
> Your thoghts and observations?
>
> charlie b