Kitchen Cabinets - Toe Kick or No Toe Kick

Otherwise extended the counter top out. . .<s>

--
SwampBug
- - - - - - - - - - - -


"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> it's really easy to figure: if you and the missus are toeless, go
> without the toe-kick. Otherwise...
>
> dave
>
> Glen Duff wrote:
>
> > I am starting on a major kitchen cabinet project for our old, stone
> > house and we want to have all the modern conveniences but want it to
> > look traditional, country-style. One of the looks we are seriously
> > considering includes a furniture-type base board on the cabinets without
> > a toe-kick.
> >
> > I know the idea of a toe-kick is to improve the comfort for those
> > working in the kitchen, especially the lower back but I'm not really
> > convinced one way or the other.
> >
> > Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. Any references would be
> > helpful as well. Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Glen Duff
> >
>

Of course, if you use words like "deep" overhang. One could, if you want to
make it look like furniture, lower the drawers a bit in the carcass and use
a sort of "crown molding from the top to the drawer opening. We ARE talking
doing something different here, why limit it during the idea phase?

--
SwampBug
- - - - - - - - - - - -


"Bridger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:32:16 -0600, "SwampBug" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Otherwise extended the counter top out. . .<s>
>
>
>
> a deep overhang can make up for no toe kick, but it makes it hard to
> use the full depth of the top drawers.

You can also over extend the drawers. There is nothing cast in stone here
save maybe tradition.
You could design the top drawer wedge shaped and pivot out to clear the
overhang, exercise imagination and see where it goes. Lets have a real, std
rule, brainstorming to revolutionize the base cabinet industry. <s>
--
SwampBug
- - - - - - - - - - - -


"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> good point, I try to overhang counters just enough to keep drips from
> running down the cabinet fronts.
>
> dave
>
> Bridger wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:32:16 -0600, "SwampBug" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Otherwise extended the counter top out. . .<s>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > a deep overhang can make up for no toe kick, but it makes it hard to
> > use the full depth of the top drawers.
>

Like I said. . .save tradition! <g>

--
SwampBug
- - - - - - - - - - - -


"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> thanks, I'll stick with the full extension plus 1" drawer slides.
>
> dave
>
> SwampBug wrote:
>
> > You can also over extend the drawers. There is nothing cast in stone
here
> > save maybe tradition.
> > You could design the top drawer wedge shaped and pivot out to clear the
> > overhang, exercise imagination and see where it goes. Lets have a real,
std
> > rule, brainstorming to revolutionize the base cabinet industry. <s>
> > --
> > SwampBug
> > - - - - - - - - - - - -
> >
> >
> > "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>good point, I try to overhang counters just enough to keep drips from
> >>running down the cabinet fronts.
> >>
> >>dave
> >>
> >>Bridger wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:32:16 -0600, "SwampBug" <[email protected]>
> >>>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Otherwise extended the counter top out. . .<s>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>a deep overhang can make up for no toe kick, but it makes it hard to
> >>>use the full depth of the top drawers.
> >>
> >
> >
>

It is like Mr.Plamann says, "it is all a matter of how bad you want to be
good!"

--
SwampBug
- - - - - - - - - - - -


"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >Otherwise extended the counter top out. . .
>
>
> Yahhhhhbut, in order to compensate, you'd need to over hang
> the counter anywhere from 3 1/4" to 4" and this ends up
> looking like somebody made the counters too deep (a mistake)
> or the cabinets too shallow (another mistake). In other
> words, one of those scenes from Weekend Warriors that always
> leaves me cringing.
>
> UA100

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Hay, our yew making fun of the whey I tiped that? The spell chequer is
> supposed to be auto-matic.
> Ed
>
>

You know when you set up a new computer with Windows, part of that set up is
to tell the computer that you live in such and such time zone, what type
keyboard so that the letters look correct? Why is there not a preference
for the spell checker? Like Texan... Or Boston, or North Dakota or..

"Glen Duff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am starting on a major kitchen cabinet project for our old, stone
> house and we want to have all the modern conveniences but want it to
> look traditional, country-style. One of the looks we are seriously
> considering includes a furniture-type base board on the cabinets without
> a toe-kick.
>
> I know the idea of a toe-kick is to improve the comfort for those
> working in the kitchen, especially the lower back but I'm not really
> convinced one way or the other.
>
> Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. Any references would be
> helpful as well. Thanks in advance.
>
> Glen Duff
>

The last few sets of cabinets I've built have had baking sheet drawers in
place of the toe kicks. That way, you get the convenience of the toe kick
along with the extra storage space of the drawers.

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:33:56 -0500, Glen Duff
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I am starting on a major kitchen cabinet project for our old, stone
>house and we want to have all the modern conveniences but want it to
>look traditional, country-style. One of the looks we are seriously
>considering includes a furniture-type base board on the cabinets without
>a toe-kick.
>
>I know the idea of a toe-kick is to improve the comfort for those
>working in the kitchen, especially the lower back but I'm not really
>convinced one way or the other.
>
>Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. Any references would be
>helpful as well. Thanks in advance.


What I like to do is use a furniture base, with an arched cutout to
provide a toe space. This gives the look of the furniture base, while
maintaining the functionality of the toe kick.



Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret)
Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
Website: http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

I,m for the toe-kick.....hate stubbing my toes if i,m not wearing
shoes......


"Glen Duff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am starting on a major kitchen cabinet project for our old, stone
> house and we want to have all the modern conveniences but want it to
> look traditional, country-style. One of the looks we are seriously
> considering includes a furniture-type base board on the cabinets without
> a toe-kick.
>
> I know the idea of a toe-kick is to improve the comfort for those
> working in the kitchen, especially the lower back but I'm not really
> convinced one way or the other.
>
> Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. Any references would be
> helpful as well. Thanks in advance.
>
> Glen Duff
>

"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Watson wrote:
> >What I like to do is use a furniture base, with an arched cutout to
> >provide a toe space. This gives the look of the furniture base, while
> >maintaining the functionality of the toe kick.
>
>
> Along the same lines, I'm currently working with an English
> (UKer) arch-ee-tekt and his "scheme" is to have some more
> traditional looking casework fronts in the kitchen, larder
> (pantry Tom) and butler's pantry. To achieve this we're
> making face frame fronts and applying them to our "normal"
> Euro constructed cabinets. The stiles on the face frames
> run to the floor and are filled in to give a very solid
> looking appearance.

General question - how would one adapt this methid of installation to a
Shaker style cabinet (assuming someone reading this has experience with
Shaker furniture)?

Jon E

"Glen Duff" wrote in message

>One of the looks we are seriously
> considering includes a furniture-type base board on the cabinets without
> a toe-kick.

When designing our latest kitchen, we gave the 'no toe kick look' due
consideration because SWMBO brought it up, but after weighing all the
factors, we went with the traditional toe kick space.

Obviously a solid base board, or any type of furniture trim on a base
cabinet, will push you even back further from the cabinets without some type
of cutout or cutout pattern.

I did see some nice looking units in the "French Provincial" style that had
the appearance of no toe kick space, said toe kick space hidden behind the
cutout pattern of a base board, with room for your toes.

The biggest consideration against 'no toe kick' for us was (and we saw
plenty of evidence of this in use) that the base boards generally get
banged/smudged up over time, with the curved area, or projections, closed to
the floor getting the majority of the grief from shoes, accidental kicks,
mops and vacuums.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/28/04
.

thanks, I'll stick with the full extension plus 1" drawer slides.

dave

SwampBug wrote:

> You can also over extend the drawers. There is nothing cast in stone here
> save maybe tradition.
> You could design the top drawer wedge shaped and pivot out to clear the
> overhang, exercise imagination and see where it goes. Lets have a real, std
> rule, brainstorming to revolutionize the base cabinet industry. <s>
> --
> SwampBug
> - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>
> "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>good point, I try to overhang counters just enough to keep drips from
>>running down the cabinet fronts.
>>
>>dave
>>
>>Bridger wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:32:16 -0600, "SwampBug" <[email protected]>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Otherwise extended the counter top out. . .<s>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>a deep overhang can make up for no toe kick, but it makes it hard to
>>>use the full depth of the top drawers.
>>
>
>

In my cabinet class, toe kicks are the standard. Even if it wasn't.....I'd
vote for them.


"Glen Duff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am starting on a major kitchen cabinet project for our old, stone
> house and we want to have all the modern conveniences but want it to
> look traditional, country-style. One of the looks we are seriously
> considering includes a furniture-type base board on the cabinets without
> a toe-kick.
>
> I know the idea of a toe-kick is to improve the comfort for those
> working in the kitchen, especially the lower back but I'm not really
> convinced one way or the other.
>
> Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. Any references would be
> helpful as well. Thanks in advance.
>
> Glen Duff
>

I should mention that these are recessed so that they also serve as a toe
kick.

"TexasFireGuy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Glen Duff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I am starting on a major kitchen cabinet project for our old, stone
> > house and we want to have all the modern conveniences but want it to
> > look traditional, country-style. One of the looks we are seriously
> > considering includes a furniture-type base board on the cabinets without
> > a toe-kick.
> >
> > I know the idea of a toe-kick is to improve the comfort for those
> > working in the kitchen, especially the lower back but I'm not really
> > convinced one way or the other.
> >
> > Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. Any references would be
> > helpful as well. Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Glen Duff
> >
>
> The last few sets of cabinets I've built have had baking sheet drawers in
> place of the toe kicks. That way, you get the convenience of the toe kick
> along with the extra storage space of the drawers.
>
>

"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:56:38 -0500, "Jon Endres, PE"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> >Either. The Shaker style as I see it is predominately flat panel inset
> >doors and drawer fronts. No elaborate moldings or ornamentation. I
would
> >say, given the limitations of modern kitchen design, that an
Arts-and-Crafts
> >style would be somewhat similar.
> >
> >I think I've solved my problem anyway. The intent will be to make the
> >island in the center of the kitchen look like a large piece of furniture,
> >and not a block of modular cabinets.
>
>
> Most of the islands that I've done have an overhang on the side that
> is most easily viewed. Something that goes well with Shakerish
> elements is a small base with a small bead and quirk, or possibly a
> chamfer, or stopped chamfer.
>
> If there is a stovetop on the side that faces the sink, I run the base
> over a kickspace and usually cut it out to within about an inch of the
> bead and quirk/chamfer, with a curved cut on either end of the
> opening.
>
> Even if there is no overhang on the sides, I usually run base there,
> unless there is a sink or some such, in which case I do the same as I
> would at the stovetop.

I'm going to make the island look like a large chest of drawers with a
granite top and four feet. The island will have a small sink in it, so
there will be a "chase" of sorts in the center to run the piping. From any
angle other than at floor level (where the cat is) you won't be able to tell
it's not sitting only on four feet.

Jon

In article <[email protected]>, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Glen Duff wrote:
>
>> I know the idea of a toe-kick is to improve the comfort for those
>> working in the kitchen, especially the lower back but I'm not really
>> convinced one way or the other.
>>
>> Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. Any references would be
>> helpful as well. Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Glen Duff
>
>Easy to decide. Go stand at the kitchen sink for a few minutes. Rinse some
>dishes, wipe out the sink, then look where your eet are. If you are
>standing close and your feet are under the lip, it shows you need a toe
>kick. Without it, you end up with back problems.
>
>You could try laying a 2 x 4 on the floor to block the openings of hte toe
>kick. See how many times you kick it when trying to reak for something in
>the upper cabinet. See how much you strain your back because you are
>standing out a few more inches.
>
>If looks are more important than your health, go for the looks. If you
>value you lower back, go for the toe kick.
>
What Ed said. You don't cook, do you, Glen? I know Ed does; I've seen his
posts before in some of the cooking groups.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:32:16 -0600, "SwampBug" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Otherwise extended the counter top out. . .<s>



a deep overhang can make up for no toe kick, but it makes it hard to
use the full depth of the top drawers.

"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Unisaw A100 wrote
> Tom Watson wrote:
>
> snippage:
>
> Jon Endres, PE
> >General question - how would one adapt this methid of installation to a
> >Shaker style cabinet (assuming someone reading this has experience with
> >Shaker furniture)?
>
> Not sure what adaptation you're looking at Jon. Got a URL
> of something Shakerish that you had in mind?
>
> I'm also not sure it's Tom (Thom Luigi) or I who the
> question is directed to.
>
> UA100

Either. The Shaker style as I see it is predominately flat panel inset
doors and drawer fronts. No elaborate moldings or ornamentation. I would
say, given the limitations of modern kitchen design, that an Arts-and-Crafts
style would be somewhat similar.

I think I've solved my problem anyway. The intent will be to make the
island in the center of the kitchen look like a large piece of furniture,
and not a block of modular cabinets.

Jon

>Otherwise extended the counter top out. . .


Yahhhhhbut, in order to compensate, you'd need to over hang
the counter anywhere from 3 1/4" to 4" and this ends up
looking like somebody made the counters too deep (a mistake)
or the cabinets too shallow (another mistake). In other
words, one of those scenes from Weekend Warriors that always
leaves me cringing.

UA100

Unisaw A100 wrote
Tom Watson wrote:

snippage:

Jon Endres, PE
>General question - how would one adapt this methid of installation to a
>Shaker style cabinet (assuming someone reading this has experience with
>Shaker furniture)?

Not sure what adaptation you're looking at Jon. Got a URL
of something Shakerish that you had in mind?

I'm also not sure it's Tom (Thom Luigi) or I who the
question is directed to.

UA100

If it looks nice but you don't use it or hate to use it what good is a nice
looking "What ever"?
With the design of your new cabinets, start with some kind of toe kick or
recess area for your feet. Otherwise you will stand back in a year and
wonder how you could have put so little consideration in to the toe kick.


"Glen Duff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am starting on a major kitchen cabinet project for our old, stone
> house and we want to have all the modern conveniences but want it to
> look traditional, country-style. One of the looks we are seriously
> considering includes a furniture-type base board on the cabinets without
> a toe-kick.
>
> I know the idea of a toe-kick is to improve the comfort for those
> working in the kitchen, especially the lower back but I'm not really
> convinced one way or the other.
>
> Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. Any references would be
> helpful as well. Thanks in advance.
>
> Glen Duff
>

"Glen Duff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am starting on a major kitchen cabinet project for our old, stone
> house and we want to have all the modern conveniences but want it to
> look traditional, country-style. One of the looks we are seriously
> considering includes a furniture-type base board on the cabinets without
> a toe-kick.
>
> I know the idea of a toe-kick is to improve the comfort for those
> working in the kitchen, especially the lower back but I'm not really
> convinced one way or the other.
>
> Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. Any references would be
> helpful as well. Thanks in advance.
>
> Glen Duff

Glen,

If you spend any time at all in the kitchen, then you need a toe kick.
Specifically at the sink, and where there are upper cabinets. In other
areas, a toe kick may not be necessary. Your back will quickly tell you how
necessary a toe kick is.

I'd like to do without one in my new kitchen as well, but it's a necessity.
What I am going to do is build the cabinets as modules, and build the toe
kick as part of a platform that the cabinet boxes will sit on. That way,
you can build the platform as essentially a frame made of 2x4 stock, shim
that to square and level instead of each individual cabinet, and then attach
the cabinets to the base separately. You could even attach the facing for
the toe kick before you put the cabinets on, which makes it easier. The
other nice thing about that method is that you don't have to stick to stock
sizes of cabinets - you can build something to fit your space.

Jon E

it's really easy to figure: if you and the missus are toeless, go
without the toe-kick. Otherwise...

dave

Glen Duff wrote:

> I am starting on a major kitchen cabinet project for our old, stone
> house and we want to have all the modern conveniences but want it to
> look traditional, country-style. One of the looks we are seriously
> considering includes a furniture-type base board on the cabinets without
> a toe-kick.
>
> I know the idea of a toe-kick is to improve the comfort for those
> working in the kitchen, especially the lower back but I'm not really
> convinced one way or the other.
>
> Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. Any references would be
> helpful as well. Thanks in advance.
>
> Glen Duff
>

On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:56:38 -0500, "Jon Endres, PE"
<[email protected]> wrote:


>Either. The Shaker style as I see it is predominately flat panel inset
>doors and drawer fronts. No elaborate moldings or ornamentation. I would
>say, given the limitations of modern kitchen design, that an Arts-and-Crafts
>style would be somewhat similar.
>
>I think I've solved my problem anyway. The intent will be to make the
>island in the center of the kitchen look like a large piece of furniture,
>and not a block of modular cabinets.


Most of the islands that I've done have an overhang on the side that
is most easily viewed. Something that goes well with Shakerish
elements is a small base with a small bead and quirk, or possibly a
chamfer, or stopped chamfer.

If there is a stovetop on the side that faces the sink, I run the base
over a kickspace and usually cut it out to within about an inch of the
bead and quirk/chamfer, with a curved cut on either end of the
opening.

Even if there is no overhang on the sides, I usually run base there,
unless there is a sink or some such, in which case I do the same as I
would at the stovetop.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

> dishes, wipe out the sink, then look where your eet are. If you are
> standing close and your feet are under the lip, it shows you need a toe

> kick. See how many times you kick it when trying to reak for something in
> the upper cabinet. See how much you strain your back because you are

If your eet are under something while you reak for something, you need to
lay off the booze and get out of the kitchen before you burn yourself. ;)

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Tom Watson wrote:
>What I like to do is use a furniture base, with an arched cutout to
>provide a toe space. This gives the look of the furniture base, while
>maintaining the functionality of the toe kick.


Along the same lines, I'm currently working with an English
(UKer) arch-ee-tekt and his "scheme" is to have some more
traditional looking casework fronts in the kitchen, larder
(pantry Tom) and butler's pantry. To achieve this we're
making face frame fronts and applying them to our "normal"
Euro constructed cabinets. The stiles on the face frames
run to the floor and are filled in to give a very solid
looking appearance.

Also, on the kitchen island we're setting the toe boards
back 8"-12" to give the appearance of freestanding units.

Also, it doesn't hurt to have the cabinets at different
depths with the work tops following suit (suite Luigi). It
give the appearance of furniture collected together and used
for the kitchen cabinets.

UA100

"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> If your eet are under something while you reak for something, you need to
> lay off the booze and get out of the kitchen before you burn yourself. ;)
>

Hay, our yew making fun of the whey I tiped that? The spell chequer is
supposed to be auto-matic.
Ed

Glen Duff wrote:

> I know the idea of a toe-kick is to improve the comfort for those
> working in the kitchen, especially the lower back but I'm not really
> convinced one way or the other.
>
> Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. Any references would be
> helpful as well. Thanks in advance.
>
> Glen Duff

Easy to decide. Go stand at the kitchen sink for a few minutes. Rinse some
dishes, wipe out the sink, then look where your eet are. If you are
standing close and your feet are under the lip, it shows you need a toe
kick. Without it, you end up with back problems.

You could try laying a 2 x 4 on the floor to block the openings of hte toe
kick. See how many times you kick it when trying to reak for something in
the upper cabinet. See how much you strain your back because you are
standing out a few more inches.

If looks are more important than your health, go for the looks. If you
value you lower back, go for the toe kick.

--
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

good point, I try to overhang counters just enough to keep drips from
running down the cabinet fronts.

dave

Bridger wrote:

> On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:32:16 -0600, "SwampBug" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Otherwise extended the counter top out. . .<s>
>
>
>
>
> a deep overhang can make up for no toe kick, but it makes it hard to
> use the full depth of the top drawers.