TS Setup/alignment questions

If done carefully, what you described is just fine. However, we're playing
with imaginary number here. Most setups even with a dial indicator do not
repeat to that tolerance without precision mechanical aids. Nor could you
easily get that repeatability with a miter gauge. Not to mention that you gave
your miter slot more precision than most machinest's squares.

Still and all, a carefully made jig, which shows repetition in repeated
measurements, is easily enough for this adjustment. Note the emphasis on
repetition, as I've seen many people never check it, and it doesn't matter if
you can measure to .001 if several repetitions give several times that
variation.

With a little thought and some careful work, you could also make a 45 deg
reference that's accurate enough for many applications. The same holds for
adjusting the fence parallel or slightly out from the miter slot.

It's just a question of what accuracy you need for any specific task, and how
much time you want to invest. For instance, I use a calibrated extended
pointer for the RAS when swinging the arm. It gives me <.006 over 13", takes
only a few seconds, and is accurate enough for most uses. I have a dial
indicator-based setup that'll do much better, but takes much longer, so I
don't use it unless needed.

GerryG

On 23 Mar 2005 20:24:13 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>Charlie Self told me a quick and CHEAP way to align my TS blade. Here
>goes:
>
>1. Screw a board (I used a one foot section of tubafore) to your miter
>gauge.
>2. Mark a tooth on the blade (I used a piece of masking tape).
>3. Put the miter gauge in the slot and raise the blade all the way up.
>4. Screw a screw partway into the end of the 2x4 so that it just
>touches the tooth you marked on the blade on the front side.
>5. Move the miter gauge to the back side and rotate the blade so that
>your same tooth (the one you marked with tape) is right there next to
>the screw. If it drags or doesn't touch, you need to adjust the table.
>
>I'm sure your $150 table saw alignment tool is good for other stuff
>too, but I got within .001" with a wood scrap and 3 drywall screws. I
>ain't saying, I'm just saying.
>
>-Phil Crow

> Anyone have any pictures as to how they mount their dial indicator to

> something for checking alignment?

I don't have pictures, but might be able to explain it. I recently
borrowed a Grizzly dial indicator with a magnetic base from a friend,
and found the same issue in using it to measure parallelism of the
blade to the miter slot. Forget about the magnetic base & the other
rods that came with as far as this measurement is concerned; just
attach the indicator to a board and clamp it to your miter guage. A
little more detail:

I used a simple board (maybe 3/4" x 2" x 10" - the exact mearurements
aren't critical) and drilled a hole near one end of it (from one 3/4"
face through to the other 3/4" face). Through this hole you slide a
1/4" bolt (long enough to reach through the 2" of board with enough
excess to slide through the hole on the dial indicator). Slide the
dial indicator onto the bolt, add a washer & hex nut. Tighten the nut
and you have the jig that I used.

Clamp this to your miter guage with the dial indicator pointing toward
the blade. Basically it should appear as though you're intending to
crosscut the piece of wood that your indicator is attached to. It's
only as accurate as your miter guage, but I found it to be accurate
enough to get me some smooth cuts.

-cm

Hi Mike,

Looks like you got a bunch of good replies! I thought I would add my
$0.02.

1. You looking to put your dial indicator on a stick. For low cost,
simplicity, and ease of use you can't beat this:

http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsjrlitevsdistick.htm

1A. Yes, getting close to the table surface is important. You've
already seen the problem with tilting the indicator. You could make
(or buy) an Offset Bar like I put on my products.

2. Blade bodies are not always flat. They can be deliberately hollow
ground, or they can be warped or cupped. What you are seeing is very
typical.

Measuring on the surface of a carbide tooth is not necessarily the best
solution for two reasons:

a. Placing a hardened chrome steel stylus tip against carbide can cause
micro-chips and cracks. Yes, you can be careful but why even risk it?

b. Carbide teeth are ground with a relief angle so getting consistent
readings can be difficult. You can easily convince yourself that you
have the exact same reading but in reality you are just measuring in a
slightly different location on the side of the tooth.

It's better to draw a dot on the blade body and take your measurements
with the stylus on that dot (rotating the blade as necessary).

Hope it helps! Let me know if you have any questions.

Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aliger.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

Mike W. wrote:
> I was messing around with my relatively new and unused dial indicator
today
> to verify alignment of my table saw and came up with a few questions.
I
> DAGS and got some answers to my questions, but was wanting to see if
anyone
> could give me some more direct answers to the questions below.
>
> Here are the questions.
>
> 1) I have the Grizzly Dial indicator. I haven't figured out a good
way to
> mount it to the miter guage or any other fixture to use it for
checking the
> blade alignment vs the miter slot. What I have done so far is to
clamp the
> big bulky assmebly that comes with it to the miter guage and to it
that
> way... but that puts the indicator at an awkward angle that is hard
to
> read... and you can't get it closer than about a half inch to the
table.
> Anyone have any pictures as to how they mount their dial indicator to

> something for checking alignment? I'm hoping to not have to go buy a
tool
> specifically for checking alignment. I planned on building a jig for
it,
> but figured I'd check here to see if anyone can show me one that they
built
> first.
>
> 2) When testing the blade alignment, tooth at front vs same tooth at
back I
> get just over .001" out of line which is good enough for me. But, if
I
> slide the guage along the blade the measuer varies in a range a
little over
> .002". Is that normal for a sawblade to have that much variation in
> thickness or do you think it is the miter slot? I have a Forrest
WWII that
> cuts great, FWIW.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike W.

Charlie Self told me a quick and CHEAP way to align my TS blade. Here
goes:

1. Screw a board (I used a one foot section of tubafore) to your miter
gauge.
2. Mark a tooth on the blade (I used a piece of masking tape).
3. Put the miter gauge in the slot and raise the blade all the way up.
4. Screw a screw partway into the end of the 2x4 so that it just
touches the tooth you marked on the blade on the front side.
5. Move the miter gauge to the back side and rotate the blade so that
your same tooth (the one you marked with tape) is right there next to
the screw. If it drags or doesn't touch, you need to adjust the table.

I'm sure your $150 table saw alignment tool is good for other stuff
too, but I got within .001" with a wood scrap and 3 drywall screws. I
ain't saying, I'm just saying.

-Phil Crow

Hi Phil,

Yep, this is what I call a traditional "feel the rub" or "hear the
scrape" method. It does work and some people are pretty darn good at
it. Personally, I find it to be pretty frustrating and tedius because
it's very subjective. Which end rubs (or scrapes) more than the other?
Back and forth over and over until you think you're convinced that
it's right. I prefer to just look at the dial on an indicator and see
exactly what is going on without any doubt or question. For me,
nothing can beat an objective reading on a dial indicator. And, since
one can easily be put on a stick for less than $20, it's hard for me to
justify spending a bunch of time on a subjective method. But, I value
my time differently than others. You might decide that saving $20 is
well worth the investment in time.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner!

PS: Ask Charlie where he put his money!

[email protected] wrote:
> Charlie Self told me a quick and CHEAP way to align my TS blade.
Here
> goes:
>
> 1. Screw a board (I used a one foot section of tubafore) to your
miter
> gauge.
> 2. Mark a tooth on the blade (I used a piece of masking tape).
> 3. Put the miter gauge in the slot and raise the blade all the way
up.
> 4. Screw a screw partway into the end of the 2x4 so that it just
> touches the tooth you marked on the blade on the front side.
> 5. Move the miter gauge to the back side and rotate the blade so
that
> your same tooth (the one you marked with tape) is right there next to
> the screw. If it drags or doesn't touch, you need to adjust the
table.
>
> I'm sure your $150 table saw alignment tool is good for other stuff
> too, but I got within .001" with a wood scrap and 3 drywall screws.
I
> ain't saying, I'm just saying.
>
> -Phil Crow

Hi George,

I think "feeler" gages are very appropriately named! If you've ever
tried them, then you know exactly what I mean. You literally have to
"feel" how tight the fit is. Is it tighter on one end than the other?
In my book, that's still pretty darn subjective, especially when you
are trying to judge the gap between a big thin flexible steel plate
(the blade) and some fixed reference (that tubafore/drywall screw or
combination square, etc.). But, I can see how some people might think
it's more objective.

On the other topic, I don't make any "bux" by recommending that someone
go out and buy a cheap indicator and attach it to a stick. But, that's
what I recommended. And, I still think that it has great advantages
over the traditional "feel the rub" or "hear the scrape" methods - with
or without "feeler" gages. You are more than welcome to disagree.

Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner!


George wrote:
> Or, you could buy $1.99 worth of "objectivity" in the form of a set
of
> feeler gages. Then you could write to the rec, and tell how
far(close) you
> were instead of correcting what did poor work and leaving what did
good
> alone.
>
> But then Ed wouldn't make any bux....
>

Ed,

Everything you said makes sense. BTW, I know I got within .001"
because I used, ahem, a dial indicator that I purchased later. <g> I
don't own a purpose-built TS alignment tool, but I have found that the
ol' magnetic base dial indicator to be a valuable tool.

On a separate note, I have a link here that has proven invaluable as
far as tablesaw tune-up.

http://www.puzzlecraft.com/Projects/HTMAP/07saw.htm

Hope it helps somebody, anyway.

-Phil Crow

Hi again George,

I'd really be interested in finding out your source for such feeler
gage sets. You say that you get "go/no-go and difference" capabilities
for tablesaw alignment (less than 0.005" accuracy) from a set which
costs less than $2.00. Of course, this isn't remotely realistic if you
use the "tubafore" as your reference. But, for arguments sake, we'll
assume that a nicer reference with square, crisp edges won't cost you
any money (but honestly you know it will).

To be even remotely as effective as the cheapest dial indicator, you
would need a feeler gage set with increments of 0.001". I confess, I
could not find such a set for less than $2.00. Maybe you could share
your source with everyone here? As I peruse my sources for feeler
gages I found a really super cheap set which might do it for $5.00.
That same source sells a cheap indicator for $8.50. I think I would
still opt for the dial indicator! The extra $3.50 is money well spent
in my opinion!

The school I went to isn't all that "different" from other schools.
They still teach science and engineering, just like most other
technological universities. And, after 22 years of "post graduate
work" (i.e. real-life experience), I'd have to say that they did a fine
job. I suppose it would have been a "different" school if they taught
students to avoid precision measurement instruments (like dial
indicators) in favor of more primitive methods of measurement (like
feeler gages). Yes, that really would have been a very "different"
school! ;-)

All kidding aside, using feeler gages is a valid method. And, some
people are very good at obtaining accurate results with feeler gages.
I'm not one of those people. I don't have the skill to subjectively
discern the subtle differences. I really don't believe the "go/no-go"
claim because it doesn't fit my experience. When I slide a feeler gage
between two objects, I get three possible outcomes: "absolutely no
resistance", "slight to high resistance", and "no fit". This middle
category is the key to accurate measurement with feeler gages and the
primary source of my frustration. If I am comparing two measurements
which both fall somewhere in the middle category ("slight to high
resistance"), then I can't make a good judgement - especially when one
of the objects is flexible (like a saw blade). And, if I can't do it
to my own satisfaction, then I can't recommend it to others.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner!


George wrote:
> Nope. Go/no go and difference.
>
> You went to a different school, I can tell.
>

Thanks Phil,

Yep, there's nothing like a dial indicator to give you that added sense
of confidence!

Yes, I've seen Steve's stuff. Just don't get too carried away! I'll
say no more. You might also find this pretty handy:

http://www.ts-aligner.com/videos.htm

I finally got the Jr. video on the web site. If you have a high speed
connection then you can get a personal demonstration of tablesaw (and
various other machinery) alignment. It's heavy on the "what" but,
since every machine is different, it's a bit light on the "how".
Someday I'll get deeper into the "how". Comments/questions always
welcome.

Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner!

I think you guys have missed a couple of things I said so I'll explain
in more detail.

Aligning a tablesaw doesn't involve figuring out which feeler gage fits
into a single gap and which does not. There are two gaps and the goal
is to make them equal. So, the objective is to find one feeler gage
that fits the same in both gaps.

In addition, I said the blade is flexible. It acts like a spring. As
you apply force to a spring, resistance starts at zero and rapidly
increases to a specific level. The resistance stays at that fixed
level over a certain distance of movement. Then the resistance
increases exponentially. Translated: as you push your feeler gage into
the both gaps, the force could "feel" the same but the actual distance
might not be. The trick to obtaining accurate results with feeler
gages is to stay out of that range of motion where the force is
constant. You can do this with your "go/no-go" technique. But, that
isn't going to be practical in the 0.001" range unless you have a
feeler gage set with 0.001" increments and your reference has nice,
square, crisp edges. A sloppy reference with rounded edges and angled
ends will steer you into the constant force range of the springy blade.

As I said, some people are pretty good at it. I'm not. And, to be
honest with you, I have no interest in developing skills for subjective
methods when an objective instrument (dial indicator) is faster,
easier, more reliable, and cheaper. Yes, cheaper! Investing in a
trustworthy set of feeler gages (not the $2.00 el-cheapo spark plug set
at the local auto parts store) and a decent ground steel reference will
cost many times more than a reliable dial indicator. What I really
don't understand is why some people have such a fear of dial indicators
that they will spend so much time and money to avoid them and then go
out of their way to dissuade others from using them too.

Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner!


George wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On 24 Mar 2005 13:40:46 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
> > yes, it's subjective. but it is easy to feel the difference between
> > two feeler guages that are .001 apart. this is adequate precision
for
> > many applications, including tablesaws.
> >
>
> Ayup. One will go, next won't, so the difference is how far. Not
that how
> far is terribly important. It's the outcome, not the measurement.

George, I think that you should give this some more thought. What if
it's splintery when cutting from both sides? Are you going to try and
ajdust it so that it's equally splintery? Sounds pretty subjective to
me. And what about the cost of keeping a bunch of luan around for
"alignment" purposes? Personally, I haven't had any of this stuff in
my shop for more than a decade. I have no desire to buy any and if it
cost me more than a couple of bucks then I might as well have bought a
dial indicator (which would be much more useful).

What makes you so averse to using a dial indicator?

Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner!


George wrote:
> That said, I think the luan test is probably the most sensitive means
of
> determining the blade parallel to the groove. Take a piece of that
nasty,
> splintery peeled veneer luan, fix tightly to the miter gage and cross
cut it
> _through_ the blade. If the rear teeth pick up no splinters when
cutting
> from either side, you're nuts on regardless of what any third
mechanical
> device tells you.

Well George, you proposed the "luan" method so it naturally follows
that you're the one to answer questions about it. If you don't think
that the sceneario is likely (or even possible), then say so. Avoiding
the issue with personal insults doesn't bode well for your credibility.
Perhaps now would be a good time to reveal if you've ever even tried
to align a saw using this "luan" test (and how much wood got trashed in
the process).

On the topic of being "obtuse", what makes you so afraid of using a
dial indicator? What compells you to speak out against such
instruments and the people who use them? I think that's what this
whole thing is about. I've admitted over and over again that the
traditional methods do work and some poeple are pretty good at them but
I just don't like them (because they involve subjective judgement).
How about a concession from you stating that dial indicators can be
used successfully to align a saw but you just don't like using them
(for whatever reason).

Maybe the location of my thinking has nothing to do with how it sounds
to your ears.

Ed Bennett
[email protected]

http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner!


George wrote:
> Sounds like you're thinking somewhere but between your ears.
>
> Or are you really as obtuse as you're trying to seem?
>

I don't usually jump into other people's fights, but I have something
to add.

I managed for many years to adjust my table saw to an acceptable level
of accuracy without buying a dial indicator. At first, if it would cut
wood without spitting it back at me, all was well. But as my skills
grew, so did my need for more precision. Those burn marks on the edges
just weren't acceptable anymore. I never tried the "luan method", but
I tried most every other technique mentioned and even some that are
not. I substituted a dial caliper for a dial indicator and got
somewhat better results.

Finally, this past Christmas, SWMBO sprung for the TS-Aligner Jr. and
the 45 degree angle block to go with it. What a quantum leap forward!
With the TS-Aligner Jr. I was able to check everything about my saw
within an hour. I found that my TABLE was tilted about 60 thou
front-to-back. A couple of washers under the table and I no longer get
burn marks when I tilt the blade.

Now, maybe you can come up with some other gadget that will measure
accurately enough, exactly the same vertical distance from the table,
to uncover that problem, but I can't, and I'm an engineer.

After I got my table saw tuned up, I went on to my jointer, planer and
compound miter saw. Guess what? My boards are smoother because my
planer blades are the same height. My miters fit better because my
miter saw was a little off. And I enjoy my time in the shop a little
more as a result.

If you don't think Ed's gadget is worth the money, don't buy one. But
I'm sure glad I did.

DonkeyHody
"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that
is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down on a
hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again---and
that is
well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore." -
Mark
Twain

In article <sFo%[email protected]>, "Mike W." <[email protected]> wrote:

I can't help you too much with the first part... I use one of these:
<http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsalignerjr.htm>

>2) When testing the blade alignment, tooth at front vs same tooth at back I
>get just over .001" out of line which is good enough for me. But, if I
>slide the guage along the blade the measuer varies in a range a little over
>..002". Is that normal for a sawblade to have that much variation in
>thickness or do you think it is the miter slot? I have a Forrest WWII that
>cuts great, FWIW.

Probably the blade. My Forrest WWII is slightly thicker at the center than it
is at the edges; since the difference appears uniform, I assume it's
intentional.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Or, you could buy $1.99 worth of "objectivity" in the form of a set of
feeler gages. Then you could write to the rec, and tell how far(close) you
were instead of correcting what did poor work and leaving what did good
alone.

But then Ed wouldn't make any bux....

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi Phil,
>
> Yep, this is what I call a traditional "feel the rub" or "hear the
> scrape" method. It does work and some people are pretty darn good at
> it. Personally, I find it to be pretty frustrating and tedius because
> it's very subjective. Which end rubs (or scrapes) more than the other?
> Back and forth over and over until you think you're convinced that
> it's right. I prefer to just look at the dial on an indicator and see
> exactly what is going on without any doubt or question. For me,
> nothing can beat an objective reading on a dial indicator. And, since
> one can easily be put on a stick for less than $20, it's hard for me to
> justify spending a bunch of time on a subjective method. But, I value
> my time differently than others. You might decide that saving $20 is
> well worth the investment in time.
>
> Thanks,
> Ed Bennett
> [email protected]
>
> http://www.ts-aligner.com
> Home of the TS-Aligner!
>
> PS: Ask Charlie where he put his money!
>
> [email protected] wrote:
> > Charlie Self told me a quick and CHEAP way to align my TS blade.
> Here
> > goes:
> >
> > 1. Screw a board (I used a one foot section of tubafore) to your
> miter
> > gauge.
> > 2. Mark a tooth on the blade (I used a piece of masking tape).
> > 3. Put the miter gauge in the slot and raise the blade all the way
> up.
> > 4. Screw a screw partway into the end of the 2x4 so that it just
> > touches the tooth you marked on the blade on the front side.
> > 5. Move the miter gauge to the back side and rotate the blade so
> that
> > your same tooth (the one you marked with tape) is right there next to
> > the screw. If it drags or doesn't touch, you need to adjust the
> table.
> >
> > I'm sure your $150 table saw alignment tool is good for other stuff
> > too, but I got within .001" with a wood scrap and 3 drywall screws.
> I
> > ain't saying, I'm just saying.
> >
> > -Phil Crow
>

Nope. Go/no go and difference.

You went to a different school, I can tell.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi George,
>
> I think "feeler" gages are very appropriately named! If you've ever
> tried them, then you know exactly what I mean. You literally have to
> "feel" how tight the fit is. Is it tighter on one end than the other?
> In my book, that's still pretty darn subjective, especially when you
> are trying to judge the gap between a big thin flexible steel plate
> (the blade) and some fixed reference (that tubafore/drywall screw or
> combination square, etc.). But, I can see how some people might think
> it's more objective.
>
> On the other topic, I don't make any "bux" by recommending that someone
> go out and buy a cheap indicator and attach it to a stick. But, that's
> what I recommended. And, I still think that it has great advantages
> over the traditional "feel the rub" or "hear the scrape" methods - with
> or without "feeler" gages. You are more than welcome to disagree.
>
> Ed Bennett
> [email protected]
>
> http://www.ts-aligner.com
> Home of the TS-Aligner!
>
>
> George wrote:
> > Or, you could buy $1.99 worth of "objectivity" in the form of a set
> of
> > feeler gages. Then you could write to the rec, and tell how
> far(close) you
> > were instead of correcting what did poor work and leaving what did
> good
> > alone.
> >
> > But then Ed wouldn't make any bux....
> >
>

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 24 Mar 2005 13:40:46 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >Hi George,
> >
> >I think "feeler" gages are very appropriately named! If you've ever
> >tried them, then you know exactly what I mean. You literally have to
> >"feel" how tight the fit is. Is it tighter on one end than the other?
> >In my book, that's still pretty darn subjective,
>
> yes, it's subjective. but it is easy to feel the difference between
> two feeler guages that are .001 apart. this is adequate precision for
> many applications, including tablesaws.
>

Ayup. One will go, next won't, so the difference is how far. Not that how
far is terribly important. It's the outcome, not the measurement.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I think you guys have missed a couple of things I said so I'll explain
> in more detail.
>
> Aligning a tablesaw doesn't involve figuring out which feeler gage fits
> into a single gap and which does not. There are two gaps and the goal
> is to make them equal. So, the objective is to find one feeler gage
> that fits the same in both gaps.
>

The objective is to produce consistent results. Doesn't, never has required
jazzbo instruments to do so. If it's off, it's corrected.

Knowing _how far_ is as useless as the proverbial porcine mammaries. If
you are incapable of detecting when a gage touches a piece of metal, well
and good. The remainder, who are fully capable of detecting it, and only
marginally interested in the magnitude of the difference, can and will
survive.

Get over it.

"George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sure you don't mean "tits on a bull," or the less
> common, "tits on a boar."
>
> Sorry for the sarcasm, George, but an attempt to
> paraphrase an old saw as an attempt at humor when
> one use the wrong words always get my goat as much
> as a person using big words that he doesn't
> understand. Unfortunately "useless as tits on a
> pig" doesn't make any more sense than "useless as
> tits on a cow" or "useless as breasts on a human."
> Mammaries on all of the above are not only
> useful but highly desirable.
>
> Nonetheless, the content of your comment is dead
> on, or at least within 0.001 inch.

Well, I guess swine come in both sexes, only one of which is commonly used
as an example of non-utility. You missed what I though was an easily
apparent attempt at alliteration. Shows again that there are there are
usually a couple or more ways of doing things, and we follow our own
assumptions or experience. With a Combo square and a feeler, I'm checked
before they can attach the dial.

That said, I think the luan test is probably the most sensitive means of
determining the blade parallel to the groove. Take a piece of that nasty,
splintery peeled veneer luan, fix tightly to the miter gage and cross cut it
_through_ the blade. If the rear teeth pick up no splinters when cutting
from either side, you're nuts on regardless of what any third mechanical
device tells you.

Sounds like you're thinking somewhere but between your ears.

Or are you really as obtuse as you're trying to seem?

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> George, I think that you should give this some more thought. What if
> it's splintery when cutting from both sides? Are you going to try and
> ajdust it so that it's equally splintery? Sounds pretty subjective to
> me. And what about the cost of keeping a bunch of luan around for
> "alignment" purposes? Personally, I haven't had any of this stuff in
> my shop for more than a decade. I have no desire to buy any and if it
> cost me more than a couple of bucks then I might as well have bought a
> dial indicator (which would be much more useful).
>
> What makes you so averse to using a dial indicator?
>
> Ed Bennett
> [email protected]
>
> http://www.ts-aligner.com
> Home of the TS-Aligner!
>
>
> George wrote:
> > That said, I think the luan test is probably the most sensitive means
> of
> > determining the blade parallel to the groove. Take a piece of that
> nasty,
> > splintery peeled veneer luan, fix tightly to the miter gage and cross
> cut it
> > _through_ the blade. If the rear teeth pick up no splinters when
> cutting
> > from either side, you're nuts on regardless of what any third
> mechanical
> > device tells you.
>

George wrote:
>
> Sounds like you're thinking somewhere but between your ears.
>
> Or are you really as obtuse as you're trying to seem?

Just check the signature and all is explained... :)

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "George" <george@least> wrote:
> >Sounds like you're thinking somewhere but between your ears.
> >
> >Or are you really as obtuse as you're trying to seem?
>
> You'd be much more convincing, George, if you'd actually answer Ed's
questions
> and attempt to rebut his points. When the best you can do is to reply to a
> reasoned (and reasonable) post with personal abuse, you sound like a
gasbag
> with an agenda instead of a person with a purpose for his actions.
> >

Well, Doug, while I am foolish enough to presume some intelligence on the
part of most posters, answering their question rather than posing and
answering mine, I will make an exception in your case, given your record.

Ed has an agenda, and his thoughts, or lack of same, seem to spring from the
vicinity of his wallet. I stated from the beginning that I was a
result-oriented woodworker, not a gadget man, and have offered up three
alternatives to the gadget, designed to determine direction, not distance,
that being essentially worthless information, lacking some similarly
calibrated device with which to make the compensation. You might try
actually reading the posts before you flap your digital gums - a weakness I
have noticed in you.

If you are unable to use a simple feeler gage to determine touch/no touch as
Ed pretends, I suggest both of you do everything in your power to avoid
tailed tools and sharp edges. Beyond that, I will also suggest that you are
incapable of using his device properly, as it does require some dexterity.

I don't think anyone is that clumsy or that obtuse, therefore I suspect Ed
is just being a PITA. I know you are.

In article <[email protected]>, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>Sounds like you're thinking somewhere but between your ears.
>
>Or are you really as obtuse as you're trying to seem?

You'd be much more convincing, George, if you'd actually answer Ed's questions
and attempt to rebut his points. When the best you can do is to reply to a
reasoned (and reasonable) post with personal abuse, you sound like a gasbag
with an agenda instead of a person with a purpose for his actions.
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> George, I think that you should give this some more thought. What if
>> it's splintery when cutting from both sides? Are you going to try and
>> ajdust it so that it's equally splintery? Sounds pretty subjective to
>> me. And what about the cost of keeping a bunch of luan around for
>> "alignment" purposes? Personally, I haven't had any of this stuff in
>> my shop for more than a decade. I have no desire to buy any and if it
>> cost me more than a couple of bucks then I might as well have bought a
>> dial indicator (which would be much more useful).
>>
>> What makes you so averse to using a dial indicator?
>>
>> Ed Bennett
>> [email protected]
>>
>> http://www.ts-aligner.com
>> Home of the TS-Aligner!
>>
>>
>> George wrote:
>> > That said, I think the luan test is probably the most sensitive means
>> of
>> > determining the blade parallel to the groove. Take a piece of that
>> nasty,
>> > splintery peeled veneer luan, fix tightly to the miter gage and cross
>> cut it
>> > _through_ the blade. If the rear teeth pick up no splinters when
>> cutting
>> > from either side, you're nuts on regardless of what any third
>> mechanical
>> > device tells you.
>>
>
>

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Thanks... you're right, that price can't be beat! I guess I was trying to
make a simple problem more complex than it needs to be. When thinking in
.001" it didnt really dawn on me that a screw and a board would suffice.

After looking at the comparison of the TS Aligner vs the 'Stick' I can see
it's value.

Thanks for the advice.
Mike W.


<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi Mike,
>
> Looks like you got a bunch of good replies! I thought I would add my
> $0.02.
>
> 1. You looking to put your dial indicator on a stick. For low cost,
> simplicity, and ease of use you can't beat this:
>
> http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsjrlitevsdistick.htm
>
> 1A. Yes, getting close to the table surface is important. You've
> already seen the problem with tilting the indicator. You could make
> (or buy) an Offset Bar like I put on my products.
>
> 2. Blade bodies are not always flat. They can be deliberately hollow
> ground, or they can be warped or cupped. What you are seeing is very
> typical.
>
> Measuring on the surface of a carbide tooth is not necessarily the best
> solution for two reasons:
>
> a. Placing a hardened chrome steel stylus tip against carbide can cause
> micro-chips and cracks. Yes, you can be careful but why even risk it?
>
> b. Carbide teeth are ground with a relief angle so getting consistent
> readings can be difficult. You can easily convince yourself that you
> have the exact same reading but in reality you are just measuring in a
> slightly different location on the side of the tooth.
>
> It's better to draw a dot on the blade body and take your measurements
> with the stylus on that dot (rotating the blade as necessary).
>
> Hope it helps! Let me know if you have any questions.
>
> Ed Bennett
> [email protected]
>
> http://www.ts-aliger.com
> Home of the TS-Aligner
>
> Mike W. wrote:
>> I was messing around with my relatively new and unused dial indicator
> today
>> to verify alignment of my table saw and came up with a few questions.
> I
>> DAGS and got some answers to my questions, but was wanting to see if
> anyone
>> could give me some more direct answers to the questions below.
>>
>> Here are the questions.
>>
>> 1) I have the Grizzly Dial indicator. I haven't figured out a good
> way to
>> mount it to the miter guage or any other fixture to use it for
> checking the
>> blade alignment vs the miter slot. What I have done so far is to
> clamp the
>> big bulky assmebly that comes with it to the miter guage and to it
> that
>> way... but that puts the indicator at an awkward angle that is hard
> to
>> read... and you can't get it closer than about a half inch to the
> table.
>> Anyone have any pictures as to how they mount their dial indicator to
>
>> something for checking alignment? I'm hoping to not have to go buy a
> tool
>> specifically for checking alignment. I planned on building a jig for
> it,
>> but figured I'd check here to see if anyone can show me one that they
> built
>> first.
>>
>> 2) When testing the blade alignment, tooth at front vs same tooth at
> back I
>> get just over .001" out of line which is good enough for me. But, if
> I
>> slide the guage along the blade the measuer varies in a range a
> little over
>> .002". Is that normal for a sawblade to have that much variation in
>> thickness or do you think it is the miter slot? I have a Forrest
> WWII that
>> cuts great, FWIW.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike W.
>

I've got a pretty nice Starrett dial indicator and a magnetic base but
I've found that I get good results by using a simple combo square.

I mark a tooth with a magic marker and check it where it would enter
and leave a cut, with the blade run high.

It's fast and simple.

I find that the Unisaw stays put pretty much, once it's been set, as
opposed to the Delta Contractors Saw that I had before, which needed
to be reset maybe once a month, in a shop where it was used maybe
twenty to thirty hours a week.

As always, YMMV.



Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

"Mike W." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:sFo%[email protected]...
>

>
> 2) When testing the blade alignment, tooth at front vs same tooth at back
> I get just over .001" out of line which is good enough for me. But, if I
> slide the guage along the blade the measuer varies in a range a little
> over .002". Is that normal for a sawblade to have that much variation in
> thickness or do you think it is the miter slot? I have a Forrest WWII
> that cuts great, FWIW.


What counts is the measurement at the tooth. Many blades differ in
thickness at different points.

Go here: http://www.newwoodworker.com/dilindjiguse.html
for some more answers.
Also, there is a link for mounting the dial indicator in the miter slot. I
used something similar till I got a TSAligner Jr.
http://www.newwoodworker.com/dilindjig.html

Darrell


"Mike W." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:sFo%[email protected]...
>I was messing around with my relatively new and unused dial indicator today
>to verify alignment of my table saw and came up with a few questions. I
>DAGS and got some answers to my questions, but was wanting to see if anyone
>could give me some more direct answers to the questions below.
>
> Here are the questions.
>
> 1) I have the Grizzly Dial indicator. I haven't figured out a good way to
> mount it to the miter guage or any other fixture to use it for checking
> the blade alignment vs the miter slot. What I have done so far is to
> clamp the big bulky assmebly that comes with it to the miter guage and to
> it that way... but that puts the indicator at an awkward angle that is
> hard to read... and you can't get it closer than about a half inch to the
> table. Anyone have any pictures as to how they mount their dial indicator
> to something for checking alignment? I'm hoping to not have to go buy a
> tool specifically for checking alignment. I planned on building a jig for
> it, but figured I'd check here to see if anyone can show me one that they
> built first.
>
> 2) When testing the blade alignment, tooth at front vs same tooth at back
> I get just over .001" out of line which is good enough for me. But, if I
> slide the guage along the blade the measuer varies in a range a little
> over .002". Is that normal for a sawblade to have that much variation in
> thickness or do you think it is the miter slot? I have a Forrest WWII
> that cuts great, FWIW.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike W.
>

On 25 Mar 2005 12:51:05 -0800, [email protected] scribbled:

>Thanks Phil,
>
>Yep, there's nothing like a dial indicator to give you that added sense
>of confidence!
>
>Yes, I've seen Steve's stuff. Just don't get too carried away! I'll
>say no more. You might also find this pretty handy:

Ed is showing admirable restraint here. If you want to know why I say
that (or the context to Bridgers's post), check out the thread
associated with this innocent post by charlie b:
http://groups.google.ca/groups?q=g:thl93185289d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=3D9EBF6E.32A7%40accesscom.com

Best I can figure out, Steve Strickland's method is as in the
following summary of the thread (quoting from the anti-faq):

3.1 HOW DO I ALIGN MY TABLESAW
You first need to find the null axis of the warp or centroid of
the cycloid of rotation. Note that the cycloid is adibiatic or
asymptotically free. Be careful not to introduce a modulus of
coefficients of dynamic dependant variables. Shag carpet works
best 'cause it minimizes the saggita on your straightedge. You
can use interference fringes or an auto-collimator. This will
allow you to adjust your table saw to make cuts accurate to a
gazillionth of an inch.

Or you can use a dial indicator on a stick that fits in your
mitre (miter, Floyd) gauge (gage, Keeter) slot.

Luigi
Who's been meaning to buy the TS-Aligner for a few years now.
Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email address
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/humour.html
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/antifaq.html

On 24 Mar 2005 18:53:29 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>Ed,
>
>Everything you said makes sense. BTW, I know I got within .001"
>because I used, ahem, a dial indicator that I purchased later. <g> I
>don't own a purpose-built TS alignment tool, but I have found that the
>ol' magnetic base dial indicator to be a valuable tool.
>
>On a separate note, I have a link here that has proven invaluable as
>far as tablesaw tune-up.
>
>http://www.puzzlecraft.com/Projects/HTMAP/07saw.htm
>
>Hope it helps somebody, anyway.
>
>-Phil Crow



OH SHIT! DUCK AND COVER! RUN! RUN!

As others mentioned, http://www.ts-aligner.com/ is about the easiest to use,
and that one tool, with some simple additions, works for the TS, BS, jointer,
DP, router table, etc. The only items I've added are a straight edge, feeler
guage, and a precision 45/90. For a good TS fixture, you might take a close
look at what he did. That thickness variation sounds normal to me, as it's the
teeth that count here.
GerryG

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 00:35:36 GMT, "Mike W." <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I was messing around with my relatively new and unused dial indicator today
>to verify alignment of my table saw and came up with a few questions. I
>DAGS and got some answers to my questions, but was wanting to see if anyone
>could give me some more direct answers to the questions below.
>
>Here are the questions.
>
>1) I have the Grizzly Dial indicator. I haven't figured out a good way to
>mount it to the miter guage or any other fixture to use it for checking the
>blade alignment vs the miter slot. What I have done so far is to clamp the
>big bulky assmebly that comes with it to the miter guage and to it that
>way... but that puts the indicator at an awkward angle that is hard to
>read... and you can't get it closer than about a half inch to the table.
>Anyone have any pictures as to how they mount their dial indicator to
>something for checking alignment? I'm hoping to not have to go buy a tool
>specifically for checking alignment. I planned on building a jig for it,
>but figured I'd check here to see if anyone can show me one that they built
>first.
>
>2) When testing the blade alignment, tooth at front vs same tooth at back I
>get just over .001" out of line which is good enough for me. But, if I
>slide the guage along the blade the measuer varies in a range a little over
>.002". Is that normal for a sawblade to have that much variation in
>thickness or do you think it is the miter slot? I have a Forrest WWII that
>cuts great, FWIW.
>
>Thanks,
>Mike W.
>

Doug Miller wrote:
>Having done it both ways myself - with feeler gauges, and with a dial
>indicator attached to a TS-Aligner Jr - I have to agree with Ed. Using his
>jazzbo gizmo makes it a boatload easier.


Ditto what Doug said but I'd substitute boat load for shit
load or at least butt load.

UA100

Exactly what I needed! Thanks!

Mike W.

"Darrell Dorsey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Go here: http://www.newwoodworker.com/dilindjiguse.html
> for some more answers.
> Also, there is a link for mounting the dial indicator in the miter slot.
> I used something similar till I got a TSAligner Jr.
> http://www.newwoodworker.com/dilindjig.html
>
> Darrell
>
>
> "Mike W." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:sFo%[email protected]...
>>I was messing around with my relatively new and unused dial indicator
>>today to verify alignment of my table saw and came up with a few
>>questions. I DAGS and got some answers to my questions, but was wanting
>>to see if anyone could give me some more direct answers to the questions
>>below.
>>
>> Here are the questions.
>>
>> 1) I have the Grizzly Dial indicator. I haven't figured out a good way
>> to mount it to the miter guage or any other fixture to use it for
>> checking the blade alignment vs the miter slot. What I have done so far
>> is to clamp the big bulky assmebly that comes with it to the miter guage
>> and to it that way... but that puts the indicator at an awkward angle
>> that is hard to read... and you can't get it closer than about a half
>> inch to the table. Anyone have any pictures as to how they mount their
>> dial indicator to something for checking alignment? I'm hoping to not
>> have to go buy a tool specifically for checking alignment. I planned on
>> building a jig for it, but figured I'd check here to see if anyone can
>> show me one that they built first.
>>
>> 2) When testing the blade alignment, tooth at front vs same tooth at back
>> I get just over .001" out of line which is good enough for me. But, if I
>> slide the guage along the blade the measuer varies in a range a little
>> over .002". Is that normal for a sawblade to have that much variation in
>> thickness or do you think it is the miter slot? I have a Forrest WWII
>> that cuts great, FWIW.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike W.
>>
>
>

In article <[email protected]>, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I think you guys have missed a couple of things I said so I'll explain
>> in more detail.
>>
>> Aligning a tablesaw doesn't involve figuring out which feeler gage fits
>> into a single gap and which does not. There are two gaps and the goal
>> is to make them equal. So, the objective is to find one feeler gage
>> that fits the same in both gaps.
>>
>
>The objective is to produce consistent results. Doesn't, never has required
>jazzbo instruments to do so.

I don't anyone ever saying that it did.

I *do* recall Ed saying, several times, that using a dial indicator makes it
*easier* to do so.

Having done it both ways myself - with feeler gauges, and with a dial
indicator attached to a TS-Aligner Jr - I have to agree with Ed. Using his
jazzbo gizmo makes it a boatload easier.



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

On 24 Mar 2005 13:40:46 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>Hi George,
>
>I think "feeler" gages are very appropriately named! If you've ever
>tried them, then you know exactly what I mean. You literally have to
>"feel" how tight the fit is. Is it tighter on one end than the other?
>In my book, that's still pretty darn subjective,

yes, it's subjective. but it is easy to feel the difference between
two feeler guages that are .001 apart. this is adequate precision for
many applications, including tablesaws.




>On the other topic, I don't make any "bux" by recommending that someone
>go out and buy a cheap indicator and attach it to a stick. But, that's
>what I recommended.

and these days decent dial indicators can be had for about the price
of a hotdog and a coke at a baseball game. indicators are lots of fun
to play with....

"DonkeyHody" <[email protected]> writes:


[...]

> Finally, this past Christmas, SWMBO sprung for the TS-Aligner Jr. and
> the 45 degree angle block to go with it. What a quantum leap forward!

What, the least possible improvement?
--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
mailto:[email protected] Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

George wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>I think you guys have missed a couple of things I said so I'll explain
>>in more detail.
>>
>>Aligning a tablesaw doesn't involve figuring out which feeler gage fits
>>into a single gap and which does not. There are two gaps and the goal
>>is to make them equal. So, the objective is to find one feeler gage
>>that fits the same in both gaps.
>>
>
>
> The objective is to produce consistent results. Doesn't, never has required
> jazzbo instruments to do so. If it's off, it's corrected.
>
> Knowing _how far_ is as useless as the proverbial porcine mammaries. If
> you are incapable of detecting when a gage touches a piece of metal, well
> and good. The remainder, who are fully capable of detecting it, and only
> marginally interested in the magnitude of the difference, can and will
> survive.
>
> Get over it.
>
>
". . . useless as the proverbial porcine
mammaries?" Porcine means swine. Never heard of
a suckling pig? How do you think mama pigs feed
their young? Useless? Another example of trying
to repeat an old saw and failing?

Sure you don't mean "tits on a bull," or the less
common, "tits on a boar."

Sorry for the sarcasm, George, but an attempt to
paraphrase an old saw as an attempt at humor when
one use the wrong words always get my goat as much
as a person using big words that he doesn't
understand. Unfortunately "useless as tits on a
pig" doesn't make any more sense than "useless as
tits on a cow" or "useless as breasts on a human."
Mammaries on all of the above are not only
useful but highly desirable.

Nonetheless, the content of your comment is dead
on, or at least within 0.001 inch.