Hello, Everyone -
I was in the process of figuring out how I wanted to set up a routing
station when it occurred to me: why not just purchase a shaper? By
the time I bought a 3hp router, purchased and/or constructed a table,
purchased and/or constructed a fence, and perhaps purchased a lift, I
would have spent as much money as a Grizzly or Shop Fox 2-3hp
dedicated shaper costs.
If the overall costs are comparable, is there any reason not to go
with the shaper? I already have a hand-held router, so I do not need
that flexibility. The only thing I can think of is that my current
router bits would be unusable in the shaper.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
- Josh
By Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:06:06 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
decided to post "Re: Shaper vs. Router?" to rec.woodworking:
>In article <[email protected]>, "Wilson Lamb" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>The router follows the local surface of a twisted or bent board. If you
>>don't have near perfect wood, the shaper will not work properly.
>
>Why do you persist in posting this statement over and over? You seem
>completely unaware that it's not a good idea to use *either* a shaper *or* a
>router on a twisted or bent board.
>
>Buy yourself a jointer, man!
>
>--
>Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
>How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
Have to respond to this .sig:
Miss America contest has 50 candidates and presidential contest has only 2
or 3 -- because, quite frankly, can you imagine the bathing suit or talent
contests for president?? I shudder to think of it.
Now back to woodworking: jointers rule! Ties with drill press for most
used machine in my shop, even over the table saw, band saw and chop saw,
and of course the router table!
/ts
They have an insert to allow you to use your bits
with the Grizzly shaper.
"Joshua" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello, Everyone -
>
> I was in the process of figuring out how I wanted to set up a routing
> station when it occurred to me: why not just purchase a shaper? By
> the time I bought a 3hp router, purchased and/or constructed a table,
> purchased and/or constructed a fence, and perhaps purchased a lift, I
> would have spent as much money as a Grizzly or Shop Fox 2-3hp
> dedicated shaper costs.
>
> If the overall costs are comparable, is there any reason not to go
> with the shaper? I already have a hand-held router, so I do not need
> that flexibility. The only thing I can think of is that my current
> router bits would be unusable in the shaper.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Josh
If you don't have a straight board, what're you making other than a mess?
I like the router table for pattern following, box-joint making, small
rabbets and dados , where, in spite of what some think, you can make numbers
of grooves parallel to a fence.
"Wilson Lamb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The router follows the local surface of a twisted or bent board. If you
> don't have near perfect wood, the shaper will not work properly.
Thanks Mark for the comments on the shaper. I have been using an ancient
Craftsman, 1/2" spindle. Its pretty decent and it is about 36 years old now,
back when Craftsman made somewhat acceptable machines. The only thing it
really lacks is big power and 3/4" capacity. So when thumbing through the
various "wishbooks" my eyes always seem to find their way to the shaper
pages. Ive been looking seriously at the Grizzly and the Woodtek but haven't
decided yet. I use a fair number of Grizz cutters too and I have found them
to be fine in my experience. Your words will be taken into account though,
its always great to hear from actual users!
Thanks again!
Jim
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
> > Hey Mark care to elaborate some more on the Woodtek shaper? I was
looking at
> > these not too long ago and would like to hear the pros and cons straight
> > from an actual user. Feel free to email me if you prefer.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
>
> I got the shaper a little over 2 years ago after doing the trades of a
> dedicated router in a table or shaper. I got the unit with the sliding
> table attachment. I have found the sliding table attachment to be very
> useful for cutting rail and stile end-grain cuts, or any other cuts
> where the stock is sufficiently wide to allow a hold-down to be used.
>
> Pros:
> 1. Table is dead-flat, there is no way I would have been able to
> get a router table to stay this flat.
> 2. Quiet -- I have never liked the screaming of routers and this
> unit just hums with power
> 3. The sliding table provides a good feed capability with stock
> that is sufficiently wide.
> 4. So far, I have not run into any problems using 1/2" shank
> router bits at the high speed setting. I don't try to force stock
> through very quickly, so this seems to work well.
>
> Cons:
> 1. The height adjustment has a fair amount of backlash. I
> typically lower a cutter, tap on the top of the spindle with a rubber
> mallet to overcome the hysteresis, then approach the cut by raising the
> cutter.
> 2. Split fence is a bit finicky. I have found a process that lets
> me speed up the setup. I first get close with the fence using the bolt
> hold-downs that hold the fence to the table. After securing those
> bolts, I then use the two adjust screws for fine adjustment. What I
> don't do is tighten the lock-down bolts on those two screws beyond tight
> enough to keep the fence halves from having any play. This allows me to
> make adjustments without having to loosen and tighten those bolts.
>
> As I say, so far I am quite satisfied with this purchase. I have
> been using Grizzly shaper cutters (3/4" bore seems to be a nice
> compromise between cost and mass) because I am not doing production
> quantity work. I do have a Freud kitchen cabinet set, but everything
> else thus far is Grizzly cutters. The only problem with Grizzly's I've
> run into thus far is that one of the rub collar bearings seems to be
> tight and does not rotate without heating.
>
> One final bit of advice, when using the shaper, I try to set
> things up with safety in mind, especially as regards trying to make sure
> that I can make the cuts with some sort of guard in place.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> Thanks Mark for the comments on the shaper. I have been using an ancient
> Craftsman, 1/2" spindle. Its pretty decent and it is about 36 years old now,
> back when Craftsman made somewhat acceptable machines. The only thing it
> really lacks is big power and 3/4" capacity. So when thumbing through the
> various "wishbooks" my eyes always seem to find their way to the shaper
> pages. Ive been looking seriously at the Grizzly and the Woodtek but haven't
> decided yet. I use a fair number of Grizz cutters too and I have found them
> to be fine in my experience. Your words will be taken into account though,
> its always great to hear from actual users!
>
> Thanks again!
>
> Jim
>
You're welcome. FWIW, my FIL lives near Springfield, MO and when I'm
there, I take advantage of the time to visit Grizzly. I took a hands-on
look at their shapers (this was after I had bought mine). IMO, (and my
opinion only), I think the Woodtek is a little better made -- the fence
seems a bit better, much as I cuss at my Woodtek fence at times, the
Grizzly fence seemed to have the potential to be more of a pain.
As I say, this is my own opinion, and was based only upon some time in
the showroom playing with the Griz.
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Josh
My shaper is much quieter than my routers and is more relaxing to use
on big projects. A shaper will always take considerable setup time:
you don't just throw on a cutter and go. For one board, a router will
be faster; for 5 or a hundred, the shaper is the way to go. I use the
rule of moving the lightest thing, so if I'm rounding over a 20 ft
board I will use the router. Howe
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> Hey Mark care to elaborate some more on the Woodtek shaper? I was looking at
> these not too long ago and would like to hear the pros and cons straight
> from an actual user. Feel free to email me if you prefer.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
>
>
I got the shaper a little over 2 years ago after doing the trades of a
dedicated router in a table or shaper. I got the unit with the sliding
table attachment. I have found the sliding table attachment to be very
useful for cutting rail and stile end-grain cuts, or any other cuts
where the stock is sufficiently wide to allow a hold-down to be used.
Pros:
1. Table is dead-flat, there is no way I would have been able to
get a router table to stay this flat.
2. Quiet -- I have never liked the screaming of routers and this
unit just hums with power
3. The sliding table provides a good feed capability with stock
that is sufficiently wide.
4. So far, I have not run into any problems using 1/2" shank
router bits at the high speed setting. I don't try to force stock
through very quickly, so this seems to work well.
Cons:
1. The height adjustment has a fair amount of backlash. I
typically lower a cutter, tap on the top of the spindle with a rubber
mallet to overcome the hysteresis, then approach the cut by raising the
cutter.
2. Split fence is a bit finicky. I have found a process that lets
me speed up the setup. I first get close with the fence using the bolt
hold-downs that hold the fence to the table. After securing those
bolts, I then use the two adjust screws for fine adjustment. What I
don't do is tighten the lock-down bolts on those two screws beyond tight
enough to keep the fence halves from having any play. This allows me to
make adjustments without having to loosen and tighten those bolts.
As I say, so far I am quite satisfied with this purchase. I have
been using Grizzly shaper cutters (3/4" bore seems to be a nice
compromise between cost and mass) because I am not doing production
quantity work. I do have a Freud kitchen cabinet set, but everything
else thus far is Grizzly cutters. The only problem with Grizzly's I've
run into thus far is that one of the rub collar bearings seems to be
tight and does not rotate without heating.
One final bit of advice, when using the shaper, I try to set
things up with safety in mind, especially as regards trying to make sure
that I can make the cuts with some sort of guard in place.
I was in your exact situation about a year or two back. I bought the
Grizzly 1.5hp shaper and added the cast iron table wing extension and the
router bit adapter. Never looked back.
One thing with the shaper that hasn't been mentioned yet; you can run the
spindle both directions. Take the cutter off, flip it, and run it the other
way. Not a really big issue for most, but comes in handy some times.
"Joshua" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello, Everyone -
>
> I was in the process of figuring out how I wanted to set up a routing
> station when it occurred to me: why not just purchase a shaper? By
> the time I bought a 3hp router, purchased and/or constructed a table,
> purchased and/or constructed a fence, and perhaps purchased a lift, I
> would have spent as much money as a Grizzly or Shop Fox 2-3hp
> dedicated shaper costs.
>
> If the overall costs are comparable, is there any reason not to go
> with the shaper? I already have a hand-held router, so I do not need
> that flexibility. The only thing I can think of is that my current
> router bits would be unusable in the shaper.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Josh
I guess it depends on what you're going to be doing with it. General edge
forming and decorative routing is easily done with a router as is rail and
stile joints and even raised panels. However a shaper does all this and does
it better in my opinion. Its a heavier more stable machine and made for hard
work. I have both and use both but I find myself turning to the shaper more
and more these days as my collection of cutters grows. Thats another thing
too. Router bits are more affordable that shaper cutters. Of course a router
is better at things like grooves and dados but like you said you have a hand
held router you could use for these tasks. Theres my two cents........
Jim
"Joshua" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello, Everyone -
>
> I was in the process of figuring out how I wanted to set up a routing
> station when it occurred to me: why not just purchase a shaper? By
> the time I bought a 3hp router, purchased and/or constructed a table,
> purchased and/or constructed a fence, and perhaps purchased a lift, I
> would have spent as much money as a Grizzly or Shop Fox 2-3hp
> dedicated shaper costs.
>
> If the overall costs are comparable, is there any reason not to go
> with the shaper? I already have a hand-held router, so I do not need
> that flexibility. The only thing I can think of is that my current
> router bits would be unusable in the shaper.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Josh
Hey Mark care to elaborate some more on the Woodtek shaper? I was looking at
these not too long ago and would like to hear the pros and cons straight
from an actual user. Feel free to email me if you prefer.
Thanks,
Jim
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > Hello, Everyone -
> >
> > I was in the process of figuring out how I wanted to set up a routing
> > station when it occurred to me: why not just purchase a shaper? By
> > the time I bought a 3hp router, purchased and/or constructed a table,
> > purchased and/or constructed a fence, and perhaps purchased a lift, I
> > would have spent as much money as a Grizzly or Shop Fox 2-3hp
> > dedicated shaper costs.
> >
> > If the overall costs are comparable, is there any reason not to go
> > with the shaper? I already have a hand-held router, so I do not need
> > that flexibility. The only thing I can think of is that my current
> > router bits would be unusable in the shaper.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
>
> Josh, check out groups.google.com. There are numerous threads on this
> subject. As an aside, I reached the same conclusion as you, bought a
> Woodtek 3 hp shaper and have been quite satisfied. Many shapers have an
> adapter spindle that lets you use 1/2" router bits.
Personally, I have problems [being of a cowardly nature] running large
router bits at 20,000 rpm, so for those situations I prefer to use a shaper.
On the other hand even though you can get a shaper chuck that will take your
routerbits the smaller diameter bits really do not rotate fast enough to do
the job well. that is the reason routers run at high speed to bring the tip
speed up so that they cut more efficiently.
In the interest of safety, and being the cowardly type, even on the shaper I
use a powerfeed whenever possible.
In short each machine is designed to perform it's design function
best....mjh
--
"Joshua" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello, Everyone -
>
> I was in the process of figuring out how I wanted to set up a routing
> station when it occurred to me: why not just purchase a shaper? By
> the time I bought a 3hp router, purchased and/or constructed a table,
> purchased and/or constructed a fence, and perhaps purchased a lift, I
> would have spent as much money as a Grizzly or Shop Fox 2-3hp
> dedicated shaper costs.
>
> If the overall costs are comparable, is there any reason not to go
> with the shaper? I already have a hand-held router, so I do not need
> that flexibility. The only thing I can think of is that my current
> router bits would be unusable in the shaper.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Josh
Any time when you are forced to run against the grain....mjh
--
"Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Otto Hoel wrote:
> >
> > One thing with the shaper that hasn't been mentioned yet; you can run
> > the spindle both directions. Take the cutter off, flip it, and run
> > it the other way. Not a really big issue for most, but comes in
> > handy some times.
>
> For instance? Thanks.
>
> -- Mark
>
>
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Hello, Everyone -
>
> I was in the process of figuring out how I wanted to set up a routing
> station when it occurred to me: why not just purchase a shaper? By
> the time I bought a 3hp router, purchased and/or constructed a table,
> purchased and/or constructed a fence, and perhaps purchased a lift, I
> would have spent as much money as a Grizzly or Shop Fox 2-3hp
> dedicated shaper costs.
>
> If the overall costs are comparable, is there any reason not to go
> with the shaper? I already have a hand-held router, so I do not need
> that flexibility. The only thing I can think of is that my current
> router bits would be unusable in the shaper.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
Josh, check out groups.google.com. There are numerous threads on this
subject. As an aside, I reached the same conclusion as you, bought a
Woodtek 3 hp shaper and have been quite satisfied. Many shapers have an
adapter spindle that lets you use 1/2" router bits.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Wilson Lamb" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >The router follows the local surface of a twisted or bent board. If you
> >don't have near perfect wood, the shaper will not work properly.
>
> Why do you persist in posting this statement over and over? You seem
> completely unaware that it's not a good idea to use *either* a shaper *or* a
> router on a twisted or bent board.
>
In addition he seems to be unable to distinguish between using a
router in a router table vs. a using a router as a hand-held router.
The OP was discussing a router table, not using a hand-held router; one
would assume he was planning on dedicating a router to the router table.
There will be no difference (zero, zip, zilch, nada) in results between
a twisted or bent board sent over a router in a router table or sent
over a shaper table -- maybe with the exception of the faster kickback
from the shaper table.
The router follows the local surface of a twisted or bent board. If you
don't have near perfect wood, the shaper will not work properly. Of course
the shaper will spin a much bigger panel raiser than a router. I take full
cuts with a 5" cutter and back cutter in oak and hickory on my SECO 3 HP.
With the belt in the low speed setting, it cuts through with no groaning.
You can do with a very small and cheap router for everything but panel
raising, where the shaper excels. Rails and stiles are usually straight, so
I do those on the shaper too.
One thing you can do with a router table is make the table/fence as long as
you like. That makes a big difference in handling large pieces and keeping
them straight.
That said, you can use a cheap router (Freud) and make all the rest. Many
of the bells and whistles in the catalog are really convenience extras.
Wilson
"Joshua" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello, Everyone -
>
> I was in the process of figuring out how I wanted to set up a routing
> station when it occurred to me: why not just purchase a shaper? By
> the time I bought a 3hp router, purchased and/or constructed a table,
> purchased and/or constructed a fence, and perhaps purchased a lift, I
> would have spent as much money as a Grizzly or Shop Fox 2-3hp
> dedicated shaper costs.
>
> If the overall costs are comparable, is there any reason not to go
> with the shaper? I already have a hand-held router, so I do not need
> that flexibility. The only thing I can think of is that my current
> router bits would be unusable in the shaper.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Josh
Personally, I have problems [being of a cowardly nature] running large
router bits at 20,000 rpm, so for those situations I prefer to use a shaper.
On the other hand even though you can get a shaper chuck that will take your
routerbits the smaller diameter bits really do not rotate fast enough to do
the job well. that is the reason routers run at high speed to bring the tip
speed up so that they cut more efficiently.
In the interest of safety, and being the cowardly type, even on the shaper I
use a powerfeed whenever possible.
In short each machine is designed to perform it's design function
best....mjh
--
"Joshua" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello, Everyone -
>
> I was in the process of figuring out how I wanted to set up a routing
> station when it occurred to me: why not just purchase a shaper? By
> the time I bought a 3hp router, purchased and/or constructed a table,
> purchased and/or constructed a fence, and perhaps purchased a lift, I
> would have spent as much money as a Grizzly or Shop Fox 2-3hp
> dedicated shaper costs.
>
> If the overall costs are comparable, is there any reason not to go
> with the shaper? I already have a hand-held router, so I do not need
> that flexibility. The only thing I can think of is that my current
> router bits would be unusable in the shaper.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Josh
And to add to that, in this situation (twisted or bent board) the effect is
going to be the same thing on either machine. I mean, you either use a fence
or a bearing piloted bit in the router right? Well, on the shaper you either
use a fence or rub collars so what's the difference. Besides to go along
with Mr. Miller, its a moot point anyway since you ought not use crappy
lumber to start with, straighten it up first and none of this matters.
Jim
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Wilson
Lamb" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >The router follows the local surface of a twisted or bent board. If you
> >don't have near perfect wood, the shaper will not work properly.
>
> Why do you persist in posting this statement over and over? You seem
> completely unaware that it's not a good idea to use *either* a shaper *or*
a
> router on a twisted or bent board.
>
> Buy yourself a jointer, man!
>
> --
"Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Otto Hoel wrote:
> >
> > One thing with the shaper that hasn't been mentioned yet; you can run
> > the spindle both directions. Take the cutter off, flip it, and run
> > it the other way. Not a really big issue for most, but comes in
> > handy some times.
>
> For instance? Thanks.
>
Some cutters have multiple profiles (e.g., two different sized radius round
overs). Turning the cutter over to use some of the profiles would require
running the cutter in the opposite direction.
John
In article <[email protected]>, "Wilson Lamb" <[email protected]> wrote:
>The router follows the local surface of a twisted or bent board. If you
>don't have near perfect wood, the shaper will not work properly.
Why do you persist in posting this statement over and over? You seem
completely unaware that it's not a good idea to use *either* a shaper *or* a
router on a twisted or bent board.
Buy yourself a jointer, man!
--
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?