Cyclone dust collector kit now available

what part of this did you not understand?

"The only things you need to build the cyclone, other than what is in
the kit, are your tools and a tube of polyurethane
caulk/adhesive-sealant and two wooden discs each 18.00" O.D. and 9.00"
I.D. by 3/4" thick made from MDF or a good quality, solid-core plywood.
The kit does not include any flex hose, ducting, collection bin, or
blower assembly."

BRuce

Mark Jerde wrote:
> Clarke Echols wrote:
>
>>A heads up for those interested in cyclone dust collection who want
>>high quality and performance without the high price of industrial
>>machines
>>or the questionable performance of imports.
>>
>>The Bill Pentz cyclone design is now available in kit form, along with
>>a mating blower housing. For those suffering from low ceilings, a
>>belt-drive accessory is in development, delivery expected in January.
>>
>>Details at:
>>
>>http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/ClarkesKits.cfm
>
>
> I'm considering this kit. It would be helpful for me if the page included a
> list of everything I needed to get to make a functioning cyclone collector.
> I know the information is all over the rest of Bill's site, but it's a large
> site. <g>
>
> Thanks.
>
> -- Mark
>
>

--
---

BRuce

not sure that there would be much of a temp differential between bottom
and top of rafters.

Perhaps I made an error in assuming that the cyclone kit was for the
cyclone only. I figured filtering would be an exercise for the builder.
Either old bags, new 1 micron bags or pleated filters, whatever floats
yer boat.

BRuce

Mark Jerde wrote:

> BRuce wrote:
>
>>what part of this did you not understand?
>>
>>"The only things you need to build the cyclone, other than what is in
>>the kit, are your tools and a tube of polyurethane
>>caulk/adhesive-sealant and two wooden discs each 18.00" O.D. and 9.00"
>>I.D. by 3/4" thick made from MDF or a good quality, solid-core
>>plywood.
>>The kit does not include any flex hose, ducting, collection bin, or
>>blower assembly."
>
>
> Well for one thing it seems to leave out the filters. ;-)
>
> I'm also wondering if there are design limits on the size of the dust box at
> the bottom of the cyclone, as my ceiling is somewhat under 8' tall. I see
> from pictures others have mounted the motor between the rafters but I'm not
> sure that's a great idea here in Maryland. In the summer the the attic gets
> very hot.
>
> The site is chocked full of good information but AFAICS it's not "rolled up"
> into a short "Hey Dummy! You Need This!" list anywhere. Clarke's response
> was quite helpful. Perhaps the info will show up on the kit page sometime.
>
> -- Mark
>
>
>

--
---

BRuce

Clarke Echols wrote:

> I'll see what I can do about putting a list of "other stuff" on the
> kits page to cover that and make it easier to find.

Let me explain my motivation. I'm not a dust collector expert but I want
better dust collection than my shop vac and low-end two-bagger DC give me.
I'd rather buy an Oneida than run the risk of building something that,
because *I* made a stupid newbie mistake, doesn't do a good job of
protecting the health of me and my family.

I *am* a computer expert. I have seen many people build computer
systems that are Porsche quality except for one critical component that
brings
the whole system down to a Briggs & Stratton go cart level. <g> They didn't
do it because they wanted to waste money or make a sub-optimal system; they
did it because of ignorance.

I want better dust collection. I'd love to save money and have the fun of
putting much of it together myself. But I need to know that I'm doing it
RIGHT. A checklist of recommended parts goes a long way to convincing me
I'm not screwing up.

Thanks.

-- Mark

You need the cyclone kit, a blower housing (from me), an impeller
14" material-handling impeller from Sheldon's Engineering, a motor
(from Electric Motor Warehouse, a dust bin (fiber barrel or make one
from an air-tight plywood box with door and insert a polyethylene bin
(22 gallon size $5 at Home Depot), plus some ducting and a motor
starter/contactor with good overload/overcurrent protection device,
and duct work. Also a good final filter or pair of filters (from
Wynn Environmental. The details are on the budget-blower page at

http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/budblower.cfm

Plan on spending $1100-1300 for a complete system, and do it right
the first time. You won't regret it. It's a lot like that
Crapsman 10" radial arm saw I bought in 1973 for $250 on sale and
the Rockwell/Delta Unisaw I bought for about $1100 in 1979. The
Unisaw was a much bigger bargain -- especially after I added my
own "T-square" fence I built and welded myself and a nice table
extension so I can cut 50" wide on it.

Clarke

Mark Jerde wrote:
>
> Clarke Echols wrote:
> > A heads up for those interested in cyclone dust collection who want
> > high quality and performance without the high price of industrial
> > machines
> > or the questionable performance of imports.
> >
> > The Bill Pentz cyclone design is now available in kit form, along with
> > a mating blower housing. For those suffering from low ceilings, a
> > belt-drive accessory is in development, delivery expected in January.
> >
> > Details at:
> >
> > http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/ClarkesKits.cfm
>
> I'm considering this kit. It would be helpful for me if the page included a
> list of everything I needed to get to make a functioning cyclone collector.
> I know the information is all over the rest of Bill's site, but it's a large
> site. <g>
>
> Thanks.
>
> -- Mark

The cyclone unit is about 50-52" high, and requires another 6" for the
blower housing on top. I have run into a number of people with low
ceilings, some as low as 78" (and a standard door is 80" high!!!), so I'm
working on an alternative to solve the "motor between the joists" problem
(I met with a manufacturers' rep this morning about some of the components
needed). Essentially what I'm doing is designing an adapter that will
allow a belt drive direct to the center shaft for the blower using a
C-face motor (the Leeson 5-HP Bill Pentz recommends works nicely here)
that hangs alongside the housing and upper cyclone, thus getting the
motor out of the space between joists or rafters, as the case may be.
Bearings and pulleys add up in cost, but it looks like we'll have a
solution on line and shipping in January at a price close to the same
as the blower housing price ($150) plus shipping.

With this arrangement, you can plan on about 60" below the ceiling to the
end of the dust chute below the cone. Subtract that from ceiling height
and you have the available height for the dust bin. I built a bin from
plywood in the form of an air-tight box with removable door (sealed all
the way around. Cut a 6" hole in the top for the dust chute, slid it
under the cyclone, raised it up on blocks and sealed the joint with
elastomeric seal strip. Bought a Rubbermaid 22-gallon polyethylene
storage bin from Home Depot for $5 and it fits inside the box like it
was designed to fit. Haven't used it yet (too busy building kits and
blowers), but it looks like it'll work well.

I do know that the 5-HP Baldor motor I put on top with a flat-blade,
backward inclined squirrel-cage impeller I built (5" high by
14.5" diameter) kicks up one tremendous windstorm in my garage
when I fire it up with all inlets and outlets free to the air.

I'll see what I can do about putting a list of "other stuff" on the kits
page to cover that and make it easier to find.

Clarke

Mark wrote:

<snip>
> I'm also wondering if there are design limits on the size of the dust box at
> the bottom of the cyclone, as my ceiling is somewhat under 8' tall. I see
> from pictures others have mounted the motor between the rafters but I'm not
> sure that's a great idea here in Maryland. In the summer the the attic gets
> very hot.
>
> The site is chocked full of good information but AFAICS it's not "rolled up"
> into a short "Hey Dummy! You Need This!" list anywhere. Clarke's response
> was quite helpful. Perhaps the info will show up on the kit page sometime.
>
> -- Mark

I designed the kit with a lot of preforming already done so you don't have
to know how to weld, solder or anything else that requires specialized
skills. The first public report is from a firefighter with no experience
with working sheet metal. Take a look at his:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?threadid=5220

I spent 30 years at Hewlett-Packard, 15 years working on Unix learning
products, including sole responsibility for HP's HP-UX system reference
manual for several years. With 20 years of writing computer manuals and
designing online help systems, I ***KNOW*** how to write user manuals. I
was licensed as a Registered Professional Engineer by the State of
Colorado in 1980, and I have a lot of metalworking experience (since the
1950s), so I know how to make stuff. This kit was designed for people who
like the satisfaction of doing it themselves without any great experience,
and the results are coming in. As John Sellers says in another thread
farther down (later) in this newsgroup, "...the instructions are
detailed to a gnat's hair."

It's as "idiot proof" as I can make it. If you can figure out Unix, you
can build a cyclone. :-) BTW, the instructions are typeset using groff,
(similar to troff), and if you haven't laid out printed-circuit-board
artwork with troff, you don't know troff. :-) (for the rest of you all,
troff is a typesetting program that runs on the Unix operating system.

Clarke

Mark Jerde wrote:
>
> Clarke Echols wrote:
>
> > I'll see what I can do about putting a list of "other stuff" on the
> > kits page to cover that and make it easier to find.
>
> Let me explain my motivation. I'm not a dust collector expert but I want
> better dust collection than my shop vac and low-end two-bagger DC give me.
> I'd rather buy an Oneida than run the risk of building something that,
> because *I* made a stupid newbie mistake, doesn't do a good job of
> protecting the health of me and my family.
>
> I *am* a computer expert. I have seen many people build computer
> systems that are Porsche quality except for one critical component that
> brings
> the whole system down to a Briggs & Stratton go cart level. <g> They didn't
> do it because they wanted to waste money or make a sub-optimal system; they
> did it because of ignorance.
>
> I want better dust collection. I'd love to save money and have the fun of
> putting much of it together myself. But I need to know that I'm doing it
> RIGHT. A checklist of recommended parts goes a long way to convincing me
> I'm not screwing up.
>
> Thanks.
>
> -- Mark

I prefer not to openly discuss my observations about this machine vs
other products because if I divulge what makes this design better than
theirs, especially in a public forum, that provides them with access to
engineering and design expertise at no cost. It also tempts some companies
whose scruples aren't stellar to find some excuse to try to shut me down
by threats of lawsuits, and that's no exaggeration. I've seen it done
in multiple instances to other people I know who were starting businesses
in the woodworking field.

Bill Pentz did some evaluation work for Oneida, and he speaks well of
them in comparison with some other popular brands, and they have a clean
reputation, more than certain others I am aware of, but they have a
somewhat different design philosophy from mine, which is what the world
is all about anyway, so I'll leave it at that.

My objective was as still is to put a first-rate quality product on the
market and let it speak for itself, rather than get into some kind of
"Consumer Reports" comparison of products. Besides, when Consumer Reports
has evaluated certain types of products in areas where I had extensive
expertise, I found myself rarely agreeing with their methods or their
conclusions.

It is helpful to be aware, when shopping as a consumer, that many major
companies are critically dependent, for their financial survival, to keep
consumers as ignorant as is humanly possible. This is especially true
in banking and finance, in the sale and promotion of non-durable consumer
goods (detergents, toiletries, cosmetics, nutrition, and many other areas),
and, unfortunately in the field of machine and woodworking tools. It is
often impossible to trust the "specifications" in a company's catalog, and
anyone with experience in air handling can see that the promoter of a
product is engaging in measurement techniques that cannot be independently
validated and coming up with numbers that are physically impossible in a
real-world, actual shop environment (I'm not referring to Oneida when I
say this, nor any other specific company in particular, but as a general
observation of companies whose principle market is not in commercial and
industrial applications where savvy engineers can see right through their
numbers with only minimal mental calculations.

To quote Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel, "I'm looking out for you."
What others do I am not particularly interested in.

As for the kits I produce vs. Oneida, theirs is a 2-HP system. Mine
uses a 5-HP motor. That should give a hint, at least on the surface.
I also recommend a good quality NEMA-rated Size 1
starter/controller/overload protection device. That's because I'm
looking out for you and don't want you to have a switch explode or
find your shop on fire due to overloaded motor or circuitry. I also
don't want you to have a "shocking" experience from improperly wired
or improperly grounded equipment. That's why I added a page to Bill
Pentz's site on motor protection and fire safety. It should be required
reading for every shop owner:

http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/Cyclone/ClarkeMotors.htm

Clarke

Andrew Barss wrote:
>
> Clarke --
>
> Could you delineate the cost differences, and performance
> differences, between your kit system and the Oneida 2 HP system?
>
> -- Andy Barss

If you go the cheapskate route and form all the sheet metal yourself,
you save about a hundred bucks, but you get to do all the layout,
cut all the pieces, slit the tabs for pocket-lock seams, and rivet and seal
or solder the entire assembly, along with figuring out the curve in the
wall of the outer cylinder to accept the inlet, etc.

There's no way you can do all that and maintain the cutting tolerances
within a few thousandths of an inch, have cleanly cut slits for joint
fingers/tabs, produce perfect circles and arcs, and then take it all down
to the local HVAC shop and have them form the edges for you on a forming
machine. And no, I am not going to give you the dimensions for cutting
so it will work on the forming machines. It was too much work to figure
them out myself so you don't have to. Cutting your own, then chasing
all over town for the hardware to assemble it is an exercise for
masochists. :-) I do that too, but I do it in larger batches so the
time per unit isn't nearly as great.

Keep in mind that there are also performance differences that can
justify the additional investment, such as it may be. I didn't
design the unit to be just cheap. I designed it to be a quality
product that performs well. Price always takes a back seat to
quality in my personal philosophy.

The Oneida is definitely a better product than any of the imported
units I've seen, and at least they've done some real-world testing
as opposed to throwing up some "performance" numbers that came from
who-knows-where. Still, there are features in the kit I designed
that I think make the kit a superior product. But at some point it
may well become a "Ford-Chevy issue", so to speak.

Clarke

Scott Post wrote:

> I'd like to see that list too. After adding in a good insulation
> class F motor with overload protection ($300+), the impeller ($180),
> cartridge filter (about $70 for paper, double that for spun polyester),
> fiber barrel (about $30), and a short piece of large diameter flex
> hose (which is expensive and hard to find in short lengths) to
> connect the barrel I'm guesstimating you've met or exceeded the price
> of a new Woodsucker or 2hp Oneida.
>
> I'm sure in the end you'd have an excellent cyclone system but it
> doesn't seem cost effective to build your own unless you go the true
> cheapskate route and form all the sheetmetal yourself.
>
> --
> Scott Post [email protected] http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/

Unless you have an unusually large shop, just put a blast gate in a
"Y" in one of the ducts and open it. My shop is about 25 x 30 feet
with 8-foot ceiling. At 1200 CFM (being conservative here), that's
a complete air change every 5 minutes. It won't take long to clean
the air at that rate, even if you need it (which you might not -- at
least not very often). That's my plan for cleaning welding smoke and
other trash in the air, what little there is.

Just having the collector on normal tools I figure will drop dust in the
air by at least 90-95% even without being particularly careful on the
collection hoods. And with that kind of CFM, you could have a vacuum-
cleaning hose and intake for vacuuming the shop, then use a compressed
air gun to blow the dust off of benches and stuff to get it airborne
so the collector can pull it in. Beats a bench brush any day. :-)

I know about college courses not matching the real world. I got an
extended major in physics with my BA plus a minor in math and most
of a minor in business, along with some speech classes, industrial
arts, music, and the stuff you don't have time for in engineering school.
Plowed through the academics of an MSEE at Colorado State University
(didn't finish the tail-end stuff because I had a house to build for
our growing family), got registered as a professional engineer in
1980 (a PE beats an MS any day of the week), but after 9 years of
designing tooling for Hewlett-Packard, I went to marketing as a
senior technical writer and learning-products engineer where I spent
20 years producing technical manuals and online help systems, 3/4 of
that working with the HP-UX/Unix operating system. I am the principal
author of "The Ultimate Guide to the Vi and Ex Text Editors" which was
considered the best book on the subject in the entire industry for years.
I also did some general contracting and consulting on the side, so I got
a pretty broad range of experience, along with building a bus from
scratch (as in "Greyhound" size/type) that's still waiting for me to
get back to it. :-(

And yes, I was on the internet before AlBore, who supposedly invented it,
even knew what it was. :-) I also told some of HP's marketing types, when
they were discussing whether to call our computers "desktop computers" or
"workstations", that they should coin and copyright the term "personal
computer" before someone else does. Six months later, guess who...
Then I told my boss once we should come out with a series of books called
"Unix for Dummies", "Vi for Dummies", "Shell Programming for Dummies",
etc., but he said it would violate the company's "image". How many
yellow books for dummies have you seen? :-) :-) Dang, I get tired of
being right.

Life's too short not to stretch one's interests...

Clarke

Mark Jerde wrote:
>
> Clarke Echols wrote:
>
> > It is helpful to be aware, when shopping as a consumer, that many
> > major companies are critically dependent, for their financial
> > survival, to keep consumers as ignorant as is humanly possible. This
> > is especially true
> > in banking and finance, in the sale and promotion of non-durable
> > consumer goods (detergents, toiletries, cosmetics, nutrition, and
> > many other areas), and, unfortunately in the field of machine and
> > woodworking tools.
>
> My "dream shop" has outstanding dust collection. In my mind, it has both a
> cyclone that is used while the tools are on and an air circulation system
> with basically the same components running most of the time. Both have a
> "forest" of pleated filters. <g> Is it possible both can be combined into
> one system? Can your design handle both? That is, if I open the blast gate
> to the appropriately-located ducts, how large a space will your design clean
> of dust in what timeframe?
>
> I started college as a mechanical engineer but I switched to computer
> science before I really learned enough to ask this question
> intelligently.... I know a little about ASHRAE since I completed one
> semester of that stuff. I was <4 credits from an ME minor when a good job
> in CS took me away from the campus and my ME minor. ;-) Gotta follow the
> bucks! Slider-crank and Rankin Cycle be d*mned! <g>
>
> -- Mark

The cyclone works on the principle of centrifugal force. The dust is
thrown to the outside of the cyclone where it follows the cone wall
down to the dust-bin outlet at the bottom. Meanwhile, clean air is
stripped from the inside of the vortex (whirlwind) inside and is pulled
out the top center through the outlet tube.

A quality filter that traps 99.97% of the fine dust down to 0.3
microns in diameter (0.3 microns = 12 millionths of an inch) requires
a very large surface area in order to pass large air volumes (the
cyclone kit with recommended blower and filter packages can handle
over 1400 CFM at typical shop real-world working conditions), and
you cannot physically place real-world filters in the cyclone and
get that kind of capability. The cyclone already removes as much
as 54-15/16 gallons of sawdust out of 55 gallons (1 cup of fine dust
left over to be trapped by the filters) from the air stream. You
need large-area filters to get that last little bit and not get
plugged with the fine dust too quickly while keeping static pressures
down for better air volume which is the major key to effective
dust elimination from the shop atmosphere.

You're going to have a tough time improving on this design because
there is too much research and engineering that went into designing
the product, on top of the research and engineering that was done
by various industrial associations on cyclone design and operation
before this one was developed. This product is not based on somebody
tossing a fancy plastic lid on a trash can and calling it a "cyclone".

Clarke

Mark Jerde wrote:
>
> Clarke Echols wrote:
>
> > The Bill Pentz cyclone design is now available in kit form, along with
> > a mating blower housing.
>
> Sorry if this is on the site and I missed it.
>
> Can a filter be mounted inside the cyclone to save space for those of us
> will small shops?
>
> -- Mark

"Kevin P. Fleming" wrote:
>
> Steve Knight wrote:
> >
> >>The only remaining part is how to filter the cyclone exhaust inexpensively.
> >
> > about 140 for two cartridges. you can get a really big cloth bag for about
> > 100.00. it would work well as long as you keep it clean and don't cut a lot of
> > tropicals. but you won't get the same airflow.
>
> Well, I don't cut as much tropicals as you do (<G>), but I do like to
> work with them. The filters are less expensive than I expected, but this
> still means around $500 for the least expensive system I can build
> (cyclone kit, home-built blower housing, filter cartridges and motor).
> And then there's new ductwork :-) Not a cheap project.

True. But people ask me why I drive big cars that burn so much gas
(my 1986 Lincoln Town Car cost me $1400 six years ago and I've put
near 100,000 miles on it since with negligible repair costs (it had
112,000 miles when I bought it; it gets 21 mpg at 75 mph, Denver to LA,
and 16-18 around town). I tell them I can buy a lot of gas for the
price of a hospital stay. (A fender-bender moved my front bumper
2" sideways and put the driver of the little Plymouth that hit it
into the hospital. No other damage except a little minor stuff like
a broken turn signal lens and cracked grill.)

A good cyclone system will cost around $1K if built from a kit with
add-on stuff. How many days not working due to asthma or other dust-
related illness will it take to make that a good investment. I was
cutting some MDF and could tell the stuff was creating problems in
my lungs in mere minutes. I went looking for a cheap dust collector.
Found Bill Pentz's site, concluded I was being stupid if I didn't build
a cyclone. Now I'm building kits and shipping them all over North
America. And I had no intention of getting into the dust-collector
business. A lot of household vacuum cleaners sell for a lot more than
a cyclone and some are junk. Others are good or OK. We bought a cyclone
vacuum 20 years ago and I was amazed at how much dirt it pulled out
of the carpet and how much cleaner the air in our home became. Not
nearly as much dust on the furniture, etc. When you filter the air
before putting it back out to breathe, the dust goes away. You can't
avoid that fact.

But to collect dust, you have to have enough air volume moving to
create the wind necessary to trap and eliminate the dust.

CE

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:55:55 -0700, Clarke Echols <[email protected]>
wrote:

>To quote Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel, "I'm looking out for you."
>What others do I am not particularly interested in.

Bill O'Reilly of Fox News (the fair and balance News network) LIED!
Can you really trust him?




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:37:05 GMT, "Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Clarke Echols wrote:
>
>> The Bill Pentz cyclone design is now available in kit form, along with
>> a mating blower housing.
>
>Sorry if this is on the site and I missed it.
>
>Can a filter be mounted inside the cyclone to save space for those of us
>will small shops?
>
> -- Mark
>
>
Oneida sells such a model. (It may be patented). It looks to me like
one big disadvantage of that design is having to take the cone off
to get to the filter. I can barely get to the cone of my cyclone!

<http://www.oneida-air.com/systems/1-2/1-2configs.htm>

Bob S

Clarke Echols wrote:

> It is helpful to be aware, when shopping as a consumer, that many
> major companies are critically dependent, for their financial
> survival, to keep consumers as ignorant as is humanly possible. This
> is especially true
> in banking and finance, in the sale and promotion of non-durable
> consumer goods (detergents, toiletries, cosmetics, nutrition, and
> many other areas), and, unfortunately in the field of machine and
> woodworking tools.

My "dream shop" has outstanding dust collection. In my mind, it has both a
cyclone that is used while the tools are on and an air circulation system
with basically the same components running most of the time. Both have a
"forest" of pleated filters. <g> Is it possible both can be combined into
one system? Can your design handle both? That is, if I open the blast gate
to the appropriately-located ducts, how large a space will your design clean
of dust in what timeframe?

I started college as a mechanical engineer but I switched to computer
science before I really learned enough to ask this question
intelligently.... I know a little about ASHRAE since I completed one
semester of that stuff. I was <4 credits from an ME minor when a good job
in CS took me away from the campus and my ME minor. ;-) Gotta follow the
bucks! Slider-crank and Rankin Cycle be d*mned! <g>

-- Mark

Clarke Echols wrote:

> The Bill Pentz cyclone design is now available in kit form, along with
> a mating blower housing.

Sorry if this is on the site and I missed it.

Can a filter be mounted inside the cyclone to save space for those of us
will small shops?

-- Mark

Dan Brown wrote:
> "Kevin P. Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:I80Db.10707$gN.7725@fed1read05:
>
>
>>- use the 1.5HP Jet motor from my existing DC (it's only a DC-650, but
>>it would pull more with a better volute)
>>- use the inexpensive Jet 14" impeller, since it will probably fit my
>>existing motor's shaft without a problem
>
>
> This sounds like a good way to burn up your motor. Unless you have a
> very restrictive inlet to the blower, or restrictive ducting, this is going
> to put too much load on the motor, overheating it and/or continuously
> throwing the breaker. For the 14" impeller, you need a solid 3 HP. You
> could restrict the inlet enough to make it safe for your motor, but that
> seems kind of counterproductive.

I had considered that as a possibility... it may mean initially just
using the impeller that came with the motor and living with the CFM
increase that a better volute/cyclone get for me.

OTOH, the current DC that this motor/impeller are located in do not
begin to draw as much current as the motor is rated for, so obviously
the existing 4" inlet and dumping into a bag are restricting the airflow
quite substantially. I could try the new arrangement just to see what
amperage the motor (tries) to draw, and ramp down the inlet size until
it's running safely.

Steve Knight wrote:

> You really need a 2hp motor. 3 even better. you can get a cheep motor to hold
> you over.
> best to sell the 650 to buy the motor and filter.

That's what I'm thinking as well, there's just no good way to use what
I've got. I'll probably just get a cheap HF or equivalent 2 or 3HP motor
and be done with it.

>
>
>>The only remaining part is how to filter the cyclone exhaust inexpensively.
>
> about 140 for two cartridges. you can get a really big cloth bag for about
> 100.00. it would work well as long as you keep it clean and don't cut a lot of
> tropicals. but you won't get the same airflow.

Well, I don't cut as much tropicals as you do (<G>), but I do like to
work with them. The filters are less expensive than I expected, but this
still means around $500 for the least expensive system I can build
(cyclone kit, home-built blower housing, filter cartridges and motor).
And then there's new ductwork :-) Not a cheap project.

Steve Knight wrote:

> well lots of time you can start with the 2hp off your other dc setup. that's
> what I am doing. I get pretty good flow with it. You need a couple of filters
> though. but you can use a metal trash can. 6" flex hose is easy to find and you
> need it for hooking up tools anyway.
> but with two cartridge filters you will get more air flow then anything else
> out there.

This is kind of what I'm thinking, start out _real_ cheap, as in:

- get the cyclone kit and a metal trash can
- make a blower unit
- use the 1.5HP Jet motor from my existing DC (it's only a DC-650, but
it would pull more with a better volute)
- use the inexpensive Jet 14" impeller, since it will probably fit my
existing motor's shaft without a problem

The only remaining part is how to filter the cyclone exhaust inexpensively.

Clarke,

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> I prefer not to openly discuss my observations about this machine vs
> other products because if I divulge what makes this design better than
> theirs, especially in a public forum, that provides them with access to
> engineering and design expertise at no cost. It also tempts some companies
> whose scruples aren't stellar to find some excuse to try to shut me down
> by threats of lawsuits, and that's no exaggeration. I've seen it done
> in multiple instances to other people I know who were starting businesses
> in the woodworking field.

With all due respect, what is to prevent Oneida, Woodsucker, Penn State
and the others from purchasing one of your kits and reverse engineering
it? Wouldn't you'd want to fire a preemptive strike and be the first to
prove why your kit is better than their systems?

> Bill Pentz did some evaluation work for Oneida, and he speaks well of
> them in comparison with some other popular brands, and they have a clean
> reputation, more than certain others I am aware of, but they have a
> somewhat different design philosophy from mine, which is what the world
> is all about anyway, so I'll leave it at that.

Fair enough, but I'm a curious sort and before I shell out $1300 for a
cyclone I have to build versus one I can bolt to the wall, I need more
data to analyze. I know that Ford and Chevy have different design
philosophies, but they both use motors, transmissions, and brakes. It
is in the analysis of the philosophical differences that allows me as a
consumer to decide what is best for me. While your kit's performance
sounds appealing, I can't afford to make a $1300 mistake.

> My objective was as still is to put a first-rate quality product on the
> market and let it speak for itself, rather than get into some kind of
> "Consumer Reports" comparison of products. Besides, when Consumer Reports
> has evaluated certain types of products in areas where I had extensive
> expertise, I found myself rarely agreeing with their methods or their
> conclusions.

> It is helpful to be aware, when shopping as a consumer, that many major
> companies are critically dependent, for their financial survival, to keep
> consumers as ignorant as is humanly possible.

Again, with all due respect, isn't this what you are doing by not
posting comparative analysis?

This is especially true
> in banking and finance, in the sale and promotion of non-durable consumer
> goods (detergents, toiletries, cosmetics, nutrition, and many other areas),
> and, unfortunately in the field of machine and woodworking tools. It is
> often impossible to trust the "specifications" in a company's catalog, and
> anyone with experience in air handling can see that the promoter of a
> product is engaging in measurement techniques that cannot be independently
> validated and coming up with numbers that are physically impossible in a
> real-world, actual shop environment (I'm not referring to Oneida when I
> say this, nor any other specific company in particular, but as a general
> observation of companies whose principle market is not in commercial and
> industrial applications where savvy engineers can see right through their
> numbers with only minimal mental calculations.

I find this to be a little patronizing. These statements sound like
you're not publishing your data for our own good. While some people are
taken in by marketing blather, many of us can understand and
differentiate between reality and bull$*!@.

> To quote Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel, "I'm looking out for you."
> What others do I am not particularly interested in.

Even though I'm not from Missouri, I do not know you. I appreciate the
sentiment, but whenever someone tells me they're looking out for me, I
instinctively grab my wallet and my balls. :-)

In closing, I don't think any of us want you to put everything on the
table without protecting yourself. I've been in business and I know
what is like to protect your intellectual property. But I also know
there comes a time when being first outweighs the possible loss of a
technological edge.

Regardless of your decision to publish your performance comparisons, I
wish you well with your venture.

Regards,
Rick Chamberlain

Clarke Echols wrote:
> A heads up for those interested in cyclone dust collection who want
> high quality and performance without the high price of industrial
> machines
> or the questionable performance of imports.
>
> The Bill Pentz cyclone design is now available in kit form, along with
> a mating blower housing. For those suffering from low ceilings, a
> belt-drive accessory is in development, delivery expected in January.
>
> Details at:
>
> http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/ClarkesKits.cfm

I'm considering this kit. It would be helpful for me if the page included a
list of everything I needed to get to make a functioning cyclone collector.
I know the information is all over the rest of Bill's site, but it's a large
site. <g>

Thanks.

-- Mark

"Kevin P. Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:I80Db.10707$gN.7725@fed1read05:

> - use the 1.5HP Jet motor from my existing DC (it's only a DC-650, but
> it would pull more with a better volute)
> - use the inexpensive Jet 14" impeller, since it will probably fit my
> existing motor's shaft without a problem

This sounds like a good way to burn up your motor. Unless you have a
very restrictive inlet to the blower, or restrictive ducting, this is going
to put too much load on the motor, overheating it and/or continuously
throwing the breaker. For the 14" impeller, you need a solid 3 HP. You
could restrict the inlet enough to make it safe for your motor, but that
seems kind of counterproductive.

BRuce wrote:
> what part of this did you not understand?
>
> "The only things you need to build the cyclone, other than what is in
> the kit, are your tools and a tube of polyurethane
> caulk/adhesive-sealant and two wooden discs each 18.00" O.D. and 9.00"
> I.D. by 3/4" thick made from MDF or a good quality, solid-core
> plywood.
> The kit does not include any flex hose, ducting, collection bin, or
> blower assembly."

Well for one thing it seems to leave out the filters. ;-)

I'm also wondering if there are design limits on the size of the dust box at
the bottom of the cyclone, as my ceiling is somewhat under 8' tall. I see
from pictures others have mounted the motor between the rafters but I'm not
sure that's a great idea here in Maryland. In the summer the the attic gets
very hot.

The site is chocked full of good information but AFAICS it's not "rolled up"
into a short "Hey Dummy! You Need This!" list anywhere. Clarke's response
was quite helpful. Perhaps the info will show up on the kit page sometime.

-- Mark

Clarke --

Could you delineate the cost differences, and performance
differences, between your kit system and the Oneida 2 HP system?

-- Andy Barss

>- get the cyclone kit and a metal trash can
>- make a blower unit
>- use the 1.5HP Jet motor from my existing DC (it's only a DC-650, but
>it would pull more with a better volute)
>- use the inexpensive Jet 14" impeller, since it will probably fit my
>existing motor's shaft without a problem


You really need a 2hp motor. 3 even better. you can get a cheep motor to hold
you over.
best to sell the 650 to buy the motor and filter.

>The only remaining part is how to filter the cyclone exhaust inexpensively.
about 140 for two cartridges. you can get a really big cloth bag for about
100.00. it would work well as long as you keep it clean and don't cut a lot of
tropicals. but you won't get the same airflow.


--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

Clarke Echols wrote:

> I spent 30 years at Hewlett-Packard, 15 years working on Unix learning
> products, including sole responsibility for HP's HP-UX system
> reference manual for several years.

Ok, correction. I'm not a *computer* expert, I'm a PC expert. <g> Though
I know
rm -r *
my *nix is only better than 998.437 of 1000 USA citizens pulled at random
off the street.

> With 20 years of writing
> computer manuals and designing online help systems, I ***KNOW*** how
> to write user manuals. I
> was licensed as a Registered Professional Engineer by the State of
> Colorado in 1980, and I have a lot of metalworking experience (since
> the 1950s), so I know how to make stuff. This kit was designed for
> people who like the satisfaction of doing it themselves without any
> great experience, and the results are coming in. As John Sellers
> says in another thread farther down (later) in this newsgroup,
> "...the instructions are
> detailed to a gnat's hair."

Great! I just want to make sure I don't buy a quad 3.0 GHz motherboard but
only put 64 KB worth of filters on it. <g>

My 1983 $4.5k 8086 PC was LOADED with a 10MB hard drive and 64KB of memory.
<g> "10 mega bytes? My god, what will you do with all that space?"

> It's as "idiot proof" as I can make it. If you can figure out Unix,
> you can build a cyclone. :-)

Is the converse true? <g> If you can't figure out a bizarre chmod does that
mean you shouldn't try to build a cyclone?

> BTW, the instructions are typeset using
> groff, (similar to troff), and if you haven't laid out
> printed-circuit-board
> artwork with troff, you don't know troff. :-) (for the rest of you
> all, troff is a typesetting program that runs on the Unix operating
> system.

I see your troff and raise you (ABEND, CORE DUMP, PROCESSOR SHUTDOWN)

-- Mark

Clarke Echols wrote:

> I'm working on an alternative to solve the "motor between the joists"
> problem (I met with a manufacturers' rep this morning about some of
> the components needed). Essentially what I'm doing is designing an
> adapter that will
> allow a belt drive direct to the center shaft for the blower using a
> C-face motor (the Leeson 5-HP Bill Pentz recommends works nicely here)
> that hangs alongside the housing and upper cyclone, thus getting the
> motor out of the space between joists or rafters, as the case may be.

Cool! I like that. Since it's for larger motors I suppose it will be a
3-belt setup.

> I'll see what I can do about putting a list of "other stuff" on the
> kits page to cover that and make it easier to find.

Thanks! More motivation to get 220v into my shop.

-- Mark

>Let me explain my motivation. I'm not a dust collector expert but I want
>better dust collection than my shop vac and low-end two-bagger DC give me.
>I'd rather buy an Oneida than run the risk of building something that,
>because *I* made a stupid newbie mistake, doesn't do a good job of
>protecting the health of me and my family.

it's not like a computer and it is dirt easy. I would not worry about it. the
worst that happens is you have to clean your filters more often. but you still
have to put the system together no matter what brand you buy. that's the
critical part.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

>I'm considering this kit. It would be helpful for me if the page included a
>list of everything I needed to get to make a functioning cyclone collector.
>I know the information is all over the rest of Bill's site, but it's a large
>site. <g>

metal working tools (G) I hate working metal. bill sent me one he made. I still
want to get a bigger blower on it.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

BRuce wrote:
> not sure that there would be much of a temp differential between
> bottom and top of rafters.

In my shop in the summer there is. Drywall on the bottom of the joists and
1/2" plywood on the top does a fair job of insulating. On a typical July
day the shop is hot and muggy, but attic is like an oven.

-- Mark

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:11:06 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Post) wrote:

>I'd like to see that list too. After adding in a good insulation
>class F motor with overload protection ($300+), the impeller ($180),
>cartridge filter (about $70 for paper, double that for spun polyester),
>fiber barrel (about $30), and a short piece of large diameter flex
>hose (which is expensive and hard to find in short lengths) to
>connect the barrel I'm guesstimating you've met or exceeded the price
>of a new Woodsucker or 2hp Oneida.
>
>I'm sure in the end you'd have an excellent cyclone system but it
>doesn't seem cost effective to build your own unless you go the true
>cheapskate route and form all the sheetmetal yourself.

well lots of time you can start with the 2hp off your other dc setup. that's
what I am doing. I get pretty good flow with it. You need a couple of filters
though. but you can use a metal trash can. 6" flex hose is easy to find and you
need it for hooking up tools anyway.
but with two cartridge filters you will get more air flow then anything else
out there.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

In article <[email protected]>,
Mark Jerde <[email protected]> wrote:
>Clarke Echols wrote:
>
>> I'll see what I can do about putting a list of "other stuff" on the
>> kits page to cover that and make it easier to find.
>
>Let me explain my motivation. I'm not a dust collector expert but I want
>better dust collection than my shop vac and low-end two-bagger DC give me.
>I'd rather buy an Oneida than run the risk of building something that,
>because *I* made a stupid newbie mistake, doesn't do a good job of
>protecting the health of me and my family.
>
>I *am* a computer expert. I have seen many people build computer
>systems that are Porsche quality except for one critical component that
>brings
>the whole system down to a Briggs & Stratton go cart level. <g> They didn't
>do it because they wanted to waste money or make a sub-optimal system; they
>did it because of ignorance.
>

I'd like to see that list too. After adding in a good insulation
class F motor with overload protection ($300+), the impeller ($180),
cartridge filter (about $70 for paper, double that for spun polyester),
fiber barrel (about $30), and a short piece of large diameter flex
hose (which is expensive and hard to find in short lengths) to
connect the barrel I'm guesstimating you've met or exceeded the price
of a new Woodsucker or 2hp Oneida.

I'm sure in the end you'd have an excellent cyclone system but it
doesn't seem cost effective to build your own unless you go the true
cheapskate route and form all the sheetmetal yourself.

--
Scott Post [email protected] http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/

With this arrangement, you can plan on about 60" below the ceiling to the
>end of the dust chute below the cone. Subtract that from ceiling height
>and you have the available height for the dust bin. I built a bin from
>plywood in the form of an air-tight box with removable door (sealed all
>the way around.
this is something I need to resolve. my filters sit on two pieces of plywood
screwed together to form a v open in front. I just have 8" pipe coming out of
the filter and a 8" cap taped on. when I blow out the fitter I get a capful and
a couple of partial's. not much room for much of a box under it.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.