I haven't used those chisels but I think they're pretty good. For a
wider selection of Japanese chisels go to www.japanwoodworker.com and
click till you get to chisels. They have chisels from cheap to
don't-tell-the-wife.
Lie-Nielson (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/) recently offered a set of
chisels 4 chisels for about $250, if I remeber correctly). The chisels
are not yet listed on their web page - I guess you can call them. I
think they're stil getting their production line running but
everything I've ever bought from LN is perfect -- I expect their
chisels will be too.
Lee Valley also has some chisels:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=41504&category=1&SID=&ccurrency=2
In all cases, some of the chisels are so close in performance that
it's difficult to take sides. Apply the rule: you get what you pay
for. I bought a set from Lee Valley and find that I only use two of
them. If I had it to do over, I'd buy 2 medium priced Japanese chisels
(1/4 inch and 3/8 inch)
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=11577
and two mortise chisels
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=11592
"AArDvarK" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<Wqqjc.174$k24.47@fed1read01>...
> Has anyone seen these? Any opinions on the quality of
> laminated steel? I can see close-up they have hollowed
> backs, are they worth buying for at least a learning stage?
>
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=G7102
>
> Thanks all,
>
> Alex
There are some tradeoffs between the hardness of steel and it's
brittleness. The Japanese solved this problem by making a thin layer
of very hard steel (which is brittle) and backing that up with a less
hard and less brittle backing. That's why they have two main layers.
They also use a forging technique which applies thin layers on top of
thin layers. It's an old technique but supposedly very good -- and
labor intensive.
The non-Japanese chisel makers have tried to find a single steel that
has the optimum hardness-brittleness characteristics.
Some of the knowledgeable chisle folks in thius group might be able to
elaborate (or correct me if I'm wrong..)
I once read why they have hollow backs but don't remember -- seems
like it had something to do with faster flattening....
"AArDvarK" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<YJSjc.5978$k24.4535@fed1read01>...
> Great reply, I havr seen all those sites and more except the
> japanwoodworker.com one, they have the same chisels as
> Grizzly, as their own name brand. But like I said I need to
> spend less for as good as possible, those basic ones seem
> good for that but I don't understand about this "method"
> they talk about with softer steel laminated with harder steel,
> then the backs are hollowed. With that wouldn't the sharpening-
> over-time run into the hollowing? But with these and their
> level of RC hardening they seem to be the right price, would
> you trust them?
>
> Alex
Never Enough Money wrote:
> I haven't used those chisels but I think they're pretty good. For a
> wider selection of Japanese chisels go to www.japanwoodworker.com and
> click till you get to chisels. They have chisels from cheap to
> don't-tell-the-wife.
>
> Lie-Nielson (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/) recently offered a set of
> chisels 4 chisels for about $250, if I remeber correctly). The chisels
> are not yet listed on their web page - I guess you can call them. I
> think they're stil getting their production line running but
> everything I've ever bought from LN is perfect -- I expect their
> chisels will be too.
Look here:
They are nice. It was worth the wait.
RB
> http://www.lie-nielsen.com/chisel.html
> Lee Valley also has some chisels:
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=41504&category=1&SID=&ccurrency=2
>
> In all cases, some of the chisels are so close in performance that
> it's difficult to take sides. Apply the rule: you get what you pay
> for. I bought a set from Lee Valley and find that I only use two of
> them. If I had it to do over, I'd buy 2 medium priced Japanese chisels
> (1/4 inch and 3/8 inch)
>
> http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=11577
>
> and two mortise chisels
>
> http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=11592
>
>
>
> "AArDvarK" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<Wqqjc.174$k24.47@fed1read01>...
>
>>Has anyone seen these? Any opinions on the quality of
>>laminated steel? I can see close-up they have hollowed
>>backs, are they worth buying for at least a learning stage?
>>
>>http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=G7102
>>
>>Thanks all,
>>
>>Alex
>
> I recently picked up some Hirsch chisels from Lee Valley. I don't
> have a ton of time on them yet, but I've been happy with them so far.
> The chisels took about 6-8 minutes each with Scary Sharp to flatten
> the backs and put on an initial edge, and it seems that the edge lasts
> much longer than my Blue Chips.
>
> Barry
>
Is this a scary sharp system?
http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=5983
Thanks for your reply,
Alex
AArDvarK asks:
>
>Is this a scary sharp system?
>http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=5983
Yes. Looks fairly interesting, too, but you might be able to find the glass
locally at a lower price. The paper appears to be a fair-to-good deal, already
cut. And I like that particular little non-complicated sharpening guide. If you
want a trial package for yourself, it should owrk decently. But check both Lee
Valley and McFeely's first for their renditions of SS.
Charlie Self
"Wars spring from unseen and generally insignificant causes, the first outbreak
being often but an explosion of anger." Thucydides
[email protected] (Charlie Self) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> AArDvarK asks:
>
> >
> >Is this a scary sharp system?
> >http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=5983
>
> Yes. Looks fairly interesting, too, but you might be able to find the glass
> locally at a lower price. The paper appears to be a fair-to-good deal, already
> cut. And I like that particular little non-complicated sharpening guide.
I've got that sharpening guide, or one just like it (made by General?)
IMHO the Veritas is simpler and better. I had some trouble firmly
clamping the blade with other and you you can also use the Veritas
for skewed blades. The Veritas angle guide is nice too.
--
FF
> Yes. Looks fairly interesting, too, but you might be able to find the glass
> locally at a lower price. The paper appears to be a fair-to-good deal, already
> cut. And I like that particular little non-complicated sharpening guide. If you
> want a trial package for yourself, it should owrk decently. But check both Lee
> Valley and McFeely's first for their renditions of SS.
Okay thanks, good advise.
Alex
I have a set of these inexpensive chisels and i also have about four of the
mid range chisels from japan wood worker
for the price i think they are worth it especially if you are learning.
the advantages I see are
they hold an awesome scary sharp edge a lot longer than a western chisel.
I can consistently make paper thin curls on oak endgrain with my 1 inch
japanese chisel long after my western ones wont cut butter
if your work requires a lot of fine paring of joints such as making hundreds
of hand cut dove tails in exotic wood i recommend them.
Whats the difference between the grizzly japanese chisels and other more
expensive ones
I doubt the grizzly ones are made by hand
quality of fit and finish,
the quality of the steel and the forging techniques is better.
the prestige of owning a hand made tool with a master blacksmiths stamp on
it
disadvantages
they are a bit shorter than western chisels
they must be sharpened only by hand or a flat stone grinder like the makita,
no grinding wheels
they can be very very expensive if you get the ones made by master japanese
blacksmiths
if you abuse them or sharpen them wrong, the steel on the edge will chip
"AArDvarK" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Wqqjc.174$k24.47@fed1read01...
>
> Has anyone seen these? Any opinions on the quality of
> laminated steel? I can see close-up they have hollowed
> backs, are they worth buying for at least a learning stage?
>
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=G7102
>
> Thanks all,
>
> Alex
>
>
Great reply, I havr seen all those sites and more except the
japanwoodworker.com one, they have the same chisels as
Grizzly, as their own name brand. But like I said I need to
spend less for as good as possible, those basic ones seem
good for that but I don't understand about this "method"
they talk about with softer steel laminated with harder steel,
then the backs are hollowed. With that wouldn't the sharpening-
over-time run into the hollowing? But with these and their
level of RC hardening they seem to be the right price, would
you trust them?
Alex
AArDvarK asks:
>But like I said I need to
>spend less for as good as possible, those basic ones seem
>good for that but I don't understand about this "method"
>they talk about with softer steel laminated with harder steel,
>then the backs are hollowed. With that wouldn't the sharpening-
>over-time run into the hollowing? But with these and their
>level of RC hardening they seem to be the right price, would
>you trust them?
You might well run into the hollows on the backs, but you're going to be so old
and decrepit it won't matter.
If you're asking if Japan Woodworker can be trusted, the answer is yes.
Charlie Self
"For NASA, space is still a high priority." Dan Quayle
JWW is ok. I ordered from them earlier this year. There was an error
in their processing of the order but they made it right quickly and at
their expense.
RB
AArDvarK wrote:
>>You might well run into the hollows on the backs, but you're going to be so old
>>and decrepit it won't matter.
>>
>>If you're asking if Japan Woodworker can be trusted, the answer is yes.
>
>
> No I meant the chisels, but thanks very much on the advise.
> I'll probably get the Grizzly's or JWW ones depending on
> either companies politics of business, shipping costs and
> warrentees.
>
> Alex
>
>
I bought two from Grizzly just to try them out. I don't think they are
as expensive or the same quality as JWW. My first reaction was they
chipped rather easily. I gave them to my son, the real woodworker, and
I'll check with him how they have fared. FWIW, I broke down and got
some Two Cherries and feel it was worth it, not really that much $$ all
things considered for the life of the tools.
AArDvarK wrote:
>>You might well run into the hollows on the backs, but you're going to be so old
>>and decrepit it won't matter.
>>
>>If you're asking if Japan Woodworker can be trusted, the answer is yes.
>
>
> No I meant the chisels, but thanks very much on the advise.
> I'll probably get the Grizzly's or JWW ones depending on
> either companies politics of business, shipping costs and
> warrentees.
>
> Alex
>
>
The report is that he kept the angle where I put it at 25 degrees (came
at about 20 degrees) and that they are OK if you are careful and only
pare with them. Too much leverage and they will chip. Those from JWW
may be better, I don't know.
[email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:50:36 -0700, "AArDvarK" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>>>I bought two from Grizzly just to try them out. I don't think they are
>>>>as expensive or the same quality as JWW. My first reaction was they
>>>>chipped rather easily. I gave them to my son, the real woodworker, and
>>>>I'll check with him how they have fared. FWIW, I broke down and got
>>>>some Two Cherries and feel it was worth it, not really that much $$ all
>>>>things considered for the life of the tools.
>>>>
>>>
>>>SNIP
>>>
>>>
>>>I've found that using slightly steeper angles on my Japanese chisels
>>>prevents chipping (Leonard Lee's sharpening book discusses this issue).
>>>
>>>David
>>
>>You guys mean chipping as in chips out of the metal???
>>Now that would be an outrage! No way do I want that!
>>
>>Alex
>>
>
>
>
> the hard layer at the cutting edge of a japanese laminated chisel is
> *very* hard and also very brittle. it takes an amazing edge and holds
> it very well- but chips easily. if you tend to be rough with your
> tools, these aren't for you.
> You might well run into the hollows on the backs, but you're going to be so old
> and decrepit it won't matter.
>
> If you're asking if Japan Woodworker can be trusted, the answer is yes.
No I meant the chisels, but thanks very much on the advise.
I'll probably get the Grizzly's or JWW ones depending on
either companies politics of business, shipping costs and
warrentees.
Alex
In article <[email protected]>, Bob Stewart <[email protected]> wrote:
> I bought two from Grizzly just to try them out. I don't think they are
> as expensive or the same quality as JWW. My first reaction was they
> chipped rather easily. I gave them to my son, the real woodworker, and
> I'll check with him how they have fared. FWIW, I broke down and got
> some Two Cherries and feel it was worth it, not really that much $$ all
> things considered for the life of the tools.
>
SNIP
I've found that using slightly steeper angles on my Japanese chisels
prevents chipping (Leonard Lee's sharpening book discusses this issue).
David
In article <unakc.6672$k24.5963@fed1read01>, "AArDvarK"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> > > I bought two from Grizzly just to try them out. I don't think they are
> > > as expensive or the same quality as JWW. My first reaction was they
> > > chipped rather easily. I gave them to my son, the real woodworker, and
> > > I'll check with him how they have fared. FWIW, I broke down and got
> > > some Two Cherries and feel it was worth it, not really that much $$ all
> > > things considered for the life of the tools.
> > >
> >
> > SNIP
> >
> >
> > I've found that using slightly steeper angles on my Japanese chisels
> > prevents chipping (Leonard Lee's sharpening book discusses this issue).
> >
> > David
>
> You guys mean chipping as in chips out of the metal???
> Now that would be an outrage! No way do I want that!
>
> Alex
Choice of bevel angle is usually determined by what you're doing with the
chisel--my paring chisels are between 20-25 degrees; chisels I use for
chopping dovetails are ground around 35 degrees. Try chopping dovetails in
hard maple with a chisel ground at 20 degrees and it will probably chip
(or seriously deform the edge).
If you don't already have Leonard Lee's book on sharpening, I highly
recommend it. He talks a lot on bevel angles.
david
> The report is that he kept the angle where I put it at 25 degrees (came
> at about 20 degrees) and that they are OK if you are careful and only
> pare with them. Too much leverage and they will chip. Those from JWW
> may be better, I don't know.
Okay thank you, I am getting the idea of the brittlness. What I will
be doing is learning joinery, box and dovetail on smaller and
thinner white pine, box joints first. So I will need a cheap carpenter's
bench vice, a gent's saw and a miter box. But there are also those
even cheaper Narex chisels made in C-Slovakia, made of chrom-
olly steal, beach handles, ferruled and heavy steal hooped on top
of the handles. I am wondering about the characteristics of chromolly
for chiseling though, anyone know? It may be more of a springy
steel that is not as brittle.
Thank you all very much for replying and helping, the good nature
of people can be really great, and is as such now. I really appreciate
it all, so I feel I owe everyone a good rib BBQ! I would if I could
too, I have a great prep for the ribs, makes them awesome.
Alex
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:50:36 -0700, "AArDvarK" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>> > I bought two from Grizzly just to try them out. I don't think they are
>> > as expensive or the same quality as JWW. My first reaction was they
>> > chipped rather easily. I gave them to my son, the real woodworker, and
>> > I'll check with him how they have fared. FWIW, I broke down and got
>> > some Two Cherries and feel it was worth it, not really that much $$ all
>> > things considered for the life of the tools.
>> >
>>
>> SNIP
>>
>>
>> I've found that using slightly steeper angles on my Japanese chisels
>> prevents chipping (Leonard Lee's sharpening book discusses this issue).
>>
>> David
>
>You guys mean chipping as in chips out of the metal???
>Now that would be an outrage! No way do I want that!
>
>Alex
>
the hard layer at the cutting edge of a japanese laminated chisel is
*very* hard and also very brittle. it takes an amazing edge and holds
it very well- but chips easily. if you tend to be rough with your
tools, these aren't for you.
> > I bought two from Grizzly just to try them out. I don't think they are
> > as expensive or the same quality as JWW. My first reaction was they
> > chipped rather easily. I gave them to my son, the real woodworker, and
> > I'll check with him how they have fared. FWIW, I broke down and got
> > some Two Cherries and feel it was worth it, not really that much $$ all
> > things considered for the life of the tools.
> >
>
> SNIP
>
>
> I've found that using slightly steeper angles on my Japanese chisels
> prevents chipping (Leonard Lee's sharpening book discusses this issue).
>
> David
You guys mean chipping as in chips out of the metal???
Now that would be an outrage! No way do I want that!
Alex
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:55:15 -0700, "AArDvarK" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Is this a scary sharp system?
>http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=5983
>
>Thanks for your reply,
>
>Alex
Yes, although many have put one together with found items. I
dispensed with the glass and use my jointer bed, others use granite
tiles.
The Rockler set up is a quick and easy way to get started, but a tad
expensive.
Barry
> There are some tradeoffs between the hardness of steel and it's
> brittleness. The Japanese solved this problem by making a thin layer
> of very hard steel (which is brittle) and backing that up with a less
> hard and less brittle backing. That's why they have two main layers.
> They also use a forging technique which applies thin layers on top of
> thin layers. It's an old technique but supposedly very good -- and
> labor intensive.
>
> The non-Japanese chisel makers have tried to find a single steel that
> has the optimum hardness-brittleness characteristics.
>
> Some of the knowledgeable chisle folks in thius group might be able to
> elaborate (or correct me if I'm wrong..)
>
> I once read why they have hollow backs but don't remember -- seems
> like it had something to do with faster flattening....
It sounds like the technique is based upon samurai sword
making with it's iron/steel folding-to-layers techniques,
which does increase strength superlatively. These less
costly chisels are probably a very minor excersize of the
same ideal, they should work well. You can see in the
pictures at either link that they are hollowed backs. I think
I means that over time, with use of a mallet, the hollows
will actually flatten more and more toward the convex
direction, and then easily controlled by keeping them
flat (I imagine).
Alex
On 27 Apr 2004 16:30:59 -0700, [email protected] (Never Enough
Money) wrote:
I recently picked up some Hirsch chisels from Lee Valley. I don't
have a ton of time on them yet, but I've been happy with them so far.
The chisels took about 6-8 minutes each with Scary Sharp to flatten
the backs and put on an initial edge, and it seems that the edge lasts
much longer than my Blue Chips.
Barry
> Yes, although many have put one together with found items. I
> dispensed with the glass and use my jointer bed, others use granite
> tiles.
>
> The Rockler set up is a quick and easy way to get started, but a tad
> expensive.
>
> Barry
Yeah that's the first thing I thought, too much. There is
a glass business within walking distance. I could get a
thicker peice. And everything else at the HIC, thanks.
Alex
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 15:43:41 -0700, "AArDvarK" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>It sounds like the technique is based upon samurai sword
>making with it's iron/steel folding-to-layers techniques,
>which does increase strength superlatively. These less
>costly chisels are probably a very minor excersize of the
>same ideal, they should work well. You can see in the
Yes. Many of the swordmakers turned to tool making, specifically
chisel making after the Shogunate forbade Samurai from carrying
swords.
Layne
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:29:30 -0700, "AArDvarK" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>Great reply, I havr seen all those sites and more except the
>japanwoodworker.com one, they have the same chisels as
>Grizzly, as their own name brand. But like I said I need to
>spend less for as good as possible, those basic ones seem
Alex, I'd advise to spend just a little more and get the chisels hand
made by chiselmaker Matsumura. You'll get great chisels from a
renowned chiselmaker at a very good price. The Japanwoodworker brand
chisels and the Grizzly chisels come from more obscure makers. You
don't know who really made those chisels and their level of skill. You
get what you pay for. Cheap Japanese tools are like cheap western
tools...they're cheap. Matsumura chisels are a very good deal.
>good for that but I don't understand about this "method"
>they talk about with softer steel laminated with harder steel,
The harder carbon steel is very brittle and prone to chipping if not
used properly. The softer, more flexible steel back supports the
harder steel edge. The better Japanese chisels forge weld wrought iron
to the steel. In even better Japanese chisels the iron comes from ship
anchor chains that are over 100 years old. The reasoning is that they
don't make chains like they used to, or at least the iron they're made
from.
>then the backs are hollowed. With that wouldn't the sharpening-
>over-time run into the hollowing? But with these and their
>level of RC hardening they seem to be the right price, would
>you trust them?
The reason for hollowing the backs is to ease flattening the backs.
You don't have to remove as much material to flatten the backs.
Eventually if you just honed the bevel yes, you'd run into the hollow.
But, if you flatten the backs as you hone you'll wear away the hollow
and have a flat section just behind the cutting edge. You can also tap
out the hollow (carefully so as not to chip the edge) with a small
square hammer designed for this purpose. Don't worry about this stuff
too much. Good Japanese chisels need infrequent honing and it'll be a
long time before you approach the hollow.
hope this helps,
Layne