Probably all of the regular readers hear are as familiar as they care to
be with my "shop lighting" plans. So I won't belabor them again.
Earlier, I was advised here to seek out "5000K" T8 bulbs. Reviewing my
notes, I saw I wrote that down a few times! : )
Today I headed out into to cruel, understocked world, to pick up a
few items to begin my lighting experiments. Prices were noticeably
better at the BORGs than online. Along with a few fixtures I came home
with the bulbs:
Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90.
When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
which is why I passed them up while I was there.
I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:
In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
about this are of course welcome too!
BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to
actually get 80% of it.
I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
That's got to be better than the approach I was using. ;)
For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and
washed at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering
to the suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it"
principle). About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on
leaving my poor wife to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a
10% sale at Lowes last week, and got an additional 5% for getting a
Lowes CC, so I bit the bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and
wire you can get for the price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem
to take pride in pointing out..they don't wash dishes! ; )
Sorry if I've distracted you, my main concern is about those 2
categories of 5000K, T8 bulbs.
Thank you,
Bill
On Tue, 10 May 2011 20:48:45 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Probably all of the regular readers hear are as familiar as they care to
>be with my "shop lighting" plans. So I won't belabor them again.
>Earlier, I was advised here to seek out "5000K" T8 bulbs. Reviewing my
>notes, I saw I wrote that down a few times! : )
>
>Today I headed out into to cruel, understocked world, to pick up a
>few items to begin my lighting experiments. Prices were noticeably
>better at the BORGs than online. Along with a few fixtures I came home
>with the bulbs:
>
>Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90.
>
>When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
>Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
>which is why I passed them up while I was there.
>
>I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
>difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:
>
>
>In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
>suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
>to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
>advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
>Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
>about this are of course welcome too!
I have trouble believing that the higher-lumen bulbs have a worse CRI.
And the CRI differing that much for the same 5000k rating is odd.
I'd opt for the brighter bulbs, Bill. And I'd get the box of 25.
They're invariably -considerably- less expensive that way, like a buck
or two cheaper each.
>BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
>incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
>meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
>listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to
>actually get 80% of it.
Especially after they get wood dust all over 'em. Efficiency report:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/femp/pdfs/fluor_lamps.pdf
>I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
>That's got to be better than the approach I was using. ;)
A.R. Bill Rides Again! <snort>
>For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and
>washed at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering
>to the suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it"
>principle). About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on
>leaving my poor wife to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a
>10% sale at Lowes last week, and got an additional 5% for getting a
>Lowes CC, so I bit the bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and
>wire you can get for the price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem
>to take pride in pointing out..they don't wash dishes! ; )
I suppose you then said "Well get in there and do them, woman. I'm
going to the Borg to buy lamps & fixtures." <titter>
--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert
"Morgans" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
"Bill" wrote in Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens,
CRI-90.
When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
which is why I passed them up while I was there.
I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:
In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
about this are of course welcome too!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I seriously doubt that the difference in Lumens is anywhere near the
difference as the specs would make you believe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would not, having been down the road and seen the difference. Lumens, not
watts is what you are looking for. I have 40 watt florescent bulbs that
look dim compared to the 32 32 watt 2700 limen bulbs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The wattage is what tells the tale. Both are the same wattage. I doubt you
could tell the difference looking at them side by side.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Efficiency is what is going to matter here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You know how Sears power tools and such say they are 5 HP and use 110V and
draw 13 amps, while other tools are 2 HP at the same voltage and amps? It
is all in how you measure it.
Not in this case.
On May 10, 8:48=A0pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90. Philli=
ps has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
> Lumens, CRI-85.
Looks as if Lumens per watt would be the deciding factor - unless the
price of the bulbs varied significantly. But you could determine
Lumens Per Dollar Per Watt, no?
>"Josepi" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>Sorry, I was trying to give you a helping hand hoping you may learn in the
>right direction.
>Since you still demonstrate ignorance , of this difference, in bulb
>construction, I will leave you with it.
Jeez, I am probably one of the few left that has not yet plonked you. And
then you BS me with non experience as opposed to my experience.
I certainly hope you have nothing that might benefit me in the future as
I'll never see it.
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Probably all of the regular readers hear are as familiar as they care to
> be with my "shop lighting" plans. So I won't belabor them again.
> Earlier, I was advised here to seek out "5000K" T8 bulbs. Reviewing my
> notes, I saw I wrote that down a few times! : )
>
> Today I headed out into to cruel, understocked world, to pick up a
> few items to begin my lighting experiments. Prices were noticeably better
> at the BORGs than online. Along with a few fixtures I came home with the
> bulbs:
>
> Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90.
>
> When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
> Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
> which is why I passed them up while I was there.
>
> I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
> difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:
>
>
> In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
> suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me to
> believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please advise me
> whether I should return what I have and get a box of the Phillips bulbs.
> Any other comments which will further my education about this are of
> course welcome too!
>
>
> BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
> incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
> meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
> listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to actually
> get 80% of it.
>
> I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
> That's got to be better than the approach I was using. ;)
>
>
> For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and washed
> at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering to the
> suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it" principle).
> About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on leaving my poor wife
> to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a 10% sale at Lowes last
> week, and got an additional 5% for getting a Lowes CC, so I bit the
> bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and wire you can get for the
> price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem to take pride in pointing
> out..they don't wash dishes! ; )
>
> Sorry if I've distracted you, my main concern is about those 2 categories
> of 5000K, T8 bulbs.
>
> Thank you,
> Bill
>
Go for lumens. The color temperature may be "pleasing" (whiter, etc) but
the lumens is a measure of the light output.
The more the better in a shop environment.
Max
Bill wrote:
> Probably all of the regular readers hear are as familiar as they care
> to be with my "shop lighting" plans. So I won't belabor them again.
> Earlier, I was advised here to seek out "5000K" T8 bulbs. Reviewing my
> notes, I saw I wrote that down a few times! : )
>
> Today I headed out into to cruel, understocked world, to pick up a
> few items to begin my lighting experiments. Prices were noticeably
> better at the BORGs than online. Along with a few fixtures I came
> home with the bulbs:
>
> Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90.
>
> When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K,
> 2850 Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25
> (only), which is why I passed them up while I was there.
>
> I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
> difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:
>
>
> In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
> suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
> to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
> advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
> Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
> about this are of course welcome too!
Facts & Opinion
There are two bad lighting conditions in any workspace: under lighted and
over lighted; one is as bad as the other IME.
The Kelvin rating of the bulbs is relatively unimportant as all fluorescent
bulbs are deficient in red; 5000K is fine.
For general illumination in a shop you want about 70 footcandles per ft.sq.;
for task lighting, around 100-150.
Lumens and footcandles are measuring two different things; however, for your
purpose, you can consider them to be 1:1.
The intensity of light varies inversely to the square of the distance.
__________________
Procedure
1. Add up the total potential lumens from all bulbs
2. Divide the total by the area of your shop. You now have the maximum
light AT ONE FOOT FROM THE BULBS
3. Apply the inverse square law to determine light at work surface height.
a. at two feet from bulb, light will be 1/2...at 4', 1/4...etc.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
"Leon" wrote
>
> Jeez, I am probably one of the few left that has not yet plonked you.
> And then you BS me with non experience as opposed to my experience.
>
> I certainly hope you have nothing that might benefit me in the future as
> I'll never see it.
>
>
He changes his email addy from time to time. So killfiling this troll is a
constant exercise. He was gone for awhile, then he came back. Like a bad
smell, he is hard to get rid of.
Bill wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> Probably all of the regular readers hear are as familiar as they
>>> care to be with my "shop lighting" plans. So I won't belabor them
>>> again. Earlier, I was advised here to seek out "5000K" T8 bulbs.
>>> Reviewing my notes, I saw I wrote that down a few times! : )
>>>
>>> Today I headed out into to cruel, understocked world, to pick up a
>>> few items to begin my lighting experiments. Prices were noticeably
>>> better at the BORGs than online. Along with a few fixtures I came
>>> home with the bulbs:
>>>
>>> Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90.
>>>
>>> When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K,
>>> 2850 Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25
>>> (only), which is why I passed them up while I was there.
>>>
>>> I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
>>> difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:
>>>
>>>
>>> In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
>>> suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading
>>> me to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
>>> advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box
>>> of the Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my
>>> education about this are of course welcome too!
>>
>>
>> Facts& Opinion
>>
>> There are two bad lighting conditions in any workspace: under
>> lighted and over lighted; one is as bad as the other IME.
>>
>> The Kelvin rating of the bulbs is relatively unimportant as all
>> fluorescent bulbs are deficient in red; 5000K is fine.
>>
>> For general illumination in a shop you want about 70 footcandles per
>> ft.sq.; for task lighting, around 100-150.
>>
>> Lumens and footcandles are measuring two different things; however,
>> for your purpose, you can consider them to be 1:1.
>>
>>
>> The intensity of light varies inversely to the square of the
>> distance. __________________
>>
>> Procedure
>>
>> 1. Add up the total potential lumens from all bulbs
>>
>> 2. Divide the total by the area of your shop. You now have the
>> maximum light AT ONE FOOT FROM THE BULBS
>>
>> 3. Apply the inverse square law to determine light at work surface
>> height. a. at two feet from bulb, light will be 1/2...at
>> 4', 1/4...etc.
>
>
> Let's see:
> (1) 2700 lumens x 22 bulbs = 59,400 lumens
> (2) 59,400 lumesn/500 ft^2 = 118.8 lumes/ft^2.
> (3) If my lights are at 8 ft and I work at 4 ft, then I'm supposed to
> divide the 118.8 by 4 (or 16, I think--Pi are square), giving 29.7 or
> 7.425 lumens.
>
> I think it makes more sense to perform the calculations "locally" (in
> the areas where it matters) and I may do so. But, for the sake of
> discussion, I assume the 118 figure the one to use in your general
> guidelines below?
>
>> For general illumination in a shop you want about 70 footcandles per
>> ft.sq.; for task lighting, around 100-150.
>
> Perhaps you can help me resolve and/or interpret my calculation in
> (3)?
All is fine when you divided by four. Come to think of it that is a bit low
as before dividing the figure is for it the light at one foot from the bulb
so the fall off to five feet is less than 1/4.
Keep in mind that 70 gives a brightly lighted area. The last time I worked
in an office environment was 1958 - the city room of a newspaper - and I
would guess that it had about that illumination, maybe somewhat less.
IME, your 22 bulbs will be more than ample. In my 500 ft shop there are 6
bulbs in the center area, and 2 bulbs at each end. The center is just fine
but the two ends could use two more bulbs each but are OK for me as there is
lots of daylight there.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Bill wrote:
> It seemed to go from 50 degrees to 85 degree very quickly in my locale
> (IN). Plenty warm enough for joint compound to set now! : )
After experiencing other places, I came to the conclusion that Indiana isn't
habitable until June. Which is why I left. Even June wasn't fail safe as I
recall snow flurries in June while riding a bike home at the close of
school.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
"dadiOH" wrote:
> After experiencing other places, I came to the conclusion that
> Indiana isn't habitable until June. Which is why I left. Even June
> wasn't fail safe as I recall snow flurries in June while riding a
> bike home at the close of school.
----------------------------------
But summers are GREAT, both days of it, July 4th AND July 5th.
Lew
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote
> I finished the entire Louis L'Amour set
> a few months ago, along with some McMurtry and Elmer Kelton.
Have you read any by Cormac McCarthy?
I've enjoyed them all.
Max
On May 11, 5:41=A0pm, "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast
dot net> wrote:
> "Leon" =A0wrote
>
> > Jeez, =A0I am probably one of the few left that has not yet plonked you=
.
> > And then you BS me with non experience as opposed to my experience.
>
> > I certainly hope you have nothing that might benefit me in the future a=
s
> > I'll never see it.
>
> He changes his email addy from time to time. =A0So killfiling this troll =
is a
> constant exercise. =A0He was gone for awhile, then he came back. =A0Like =
a bad
> smell, he is hard to get rid of.
He's a fucking idiot. Has no clue about anything, lies like a rug and
is dangerous with his bad advice to boot.
In article <[email protected]>,
Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sat, 21 May 2011 03:09:43 -0500, [email protected]
>(Robert Bonomi) wrote:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>BTW, here's a good example of a "bad joke" I read the other day:
>>>
>>>These two muffins were in the oven. One muffin said, "Gosh, it's hot in
>>>here!" The other muffin went "Eeeek!!!, A talking muffin!"
>>>
>>>Dont' tell anyone you heard it from me--I'll deny it.
>>
>>*NOBODY* with even half a bran would repeat that story.
>
>Your reputation is in crumbs from that one, Bobby.
Waitaminnit, there was nothing crumby about that one, just a germ of an
idea. In reality, I'm on a roll. So sesame!
>Butter think twice before doing something like that again.
IF I do that, I get headaches. REALLY bad ones, Margarines, in fact
On Wed, 11 May 2011 09:44:07 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/light-level-rooms-d_708.html
>
>Normal Drawing Work, Detailed Mechanical Workshops, Operation
>Theatres 1,000 lux
Like the 500W halogen spotlight over dental chairs and ER tables?
Right. We need that kind of light to cut wood. <g>
>Detailed Drawing Work, Very Detailed Mechanical Works 1500 - 2000 lux
>
>I'd say woodworking fits into the detailed mechanical work format.
>1254 lux is bright but none too bright. You would still need task
>lighting for dovetail work.
I wouldn't. And I would truly want to wear sunglasses in that shop.
We all have different requirements, don't we?
--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert
On May 11, 9:27=A0am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2011 00:57:29 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> >My "maximal plan" would have 22 T8 bulbs (11 4' fixtures), in my 20' by
>
> Let's see, 22 x 2,700 lumens =3D 59,400 lumens. That's the equivalent of
> almost SEVENTY ONE 60W bulbs. =A0Now do you see why that's absolute
> overkill to the Nth degree? =A0I still think that you'd have plenty of
> light with 4 fixtures in addition to the two which are already up
> there, and adding spot illumination where necessary.
>
> Power used by 11 fixtures (bulbs + ballasts) would be about a
> horsepower and a half, 1100W all the time you're in the shop.
> Even fluor can get expensive to run if there's too much of it.
>
> >25' space,
20' x 25' is roughly 6 meters by 8 meters. 47 square meters. Divide
59,400 lumens by 47 square meters and you get 1254 lux. Which fits in
very well with the following chart.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/light-level-rooms-d_708.html
Normal Drawing Work, Detailed Mechanical Workshops, Operation
Theatres 1,000 lux
Detailed Drawing Work, Very Detailed Mechanical Works 1500 - 2000 lux
I'd say woodworking fits into the detailed mechanical work format.
1254 lux is bright but none too bright. You would still need task
lighting for dovetail work.
on 3 switches. One switch would have just two fixtures over
> >my workbench/table (I think of that as "mood lighting", sort of
> >comparable to light over a pool table) and the other 9 would be divided
> >among the other 2 switches. I will do some actual experiments in the
> >immediate future to help me decide whether this many bulbs produces more
> >light than I want or not.
>
> You'll need an arc welding helmet to walk in that Lew-Approved(tmLJ)
> room. Time for cataract surgery so you can see again, guys.
>
> >The way I am planning to do the wiring (EMT/THHN) offers considerable
> >latitude in reassigning lights to switches. =A0For my 3 hot wires A, B, =
C
> >I'll have an A-B row, and two B-C rows. Thus I'll be running just 4
> >wires, 2 hots, White and Ground along each of my three rows of fixtures.
> > =A0My uncle explained to me why he didn't think I should use the metal
> >conduit as a ground (even though it may be allowable).
>
> Not only is it illegal in most places, it's a safety hazard. If you
> lost your neutral (white wire), you'd have current (plus the resultant
> resistances) in iffy connections, which could be a fire hazard.
>
> --
> Woe be to him that reads but one book.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 -- George Herbert
In article <[email protected]>, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
><snip>
>
>>> BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
>>> incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
>>> meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
>>> listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to
>>> actually get 80% of it.
>>
>> Especially after they get wood dust all over 'em. Efficiency report:
>> http://www1.eere.energy.gov/femp/pdfs/fluor_lamps.pdf
>
>Hey, that was pretty interesting!
>
>>
>>
>>> I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
>>> That's got to be better than the approach I was using. ;)
>>
>> A.R. Bill Rides Again!<snort>
>
> You write that as if attention to detail is a bad thing...
>
>>
>>
>>> For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and
>>> washed at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering
>>> to the suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it"
>>> principle). About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on
>>> leaving my poor wife to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a
>>> 10% sale at Lowes last week, and got an additional 5% for getting a
>>> Lowes CC, so I bit the bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and
>>> wire you can get for the price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem
>>> to take pride in pointing out..they don't wash dishes! ; )
>>
>> I suppose you then said "Well get in there and do them, woman. I'm
>> going to the Borg to buy lamps& fixtures."<titter>
>
>Naw..I'm a little more discreet about my shopping than that. But if
>conversation should turn in that direction, I'll be ready with: "That
>dang dishwasher cost ne'r twice as much as all of my light fixtures
>combined!" (there's no need to confuse matters with the box of bulbs or
>the spools of wire...) ;)
>
>By the way, what Mike M. termed the "DP Baseboard of my dreams" this
>past winter may finally be constructed in the next few days. The weather
>and a few other matters held me off-track until now. I might start
>sooner, but I've got to go bulb shopping again tomorrow... I hope
>someone here is amused by my humble attempts at humor... The "Mrs."
>doesn't think I have a good sense of humor...beyond that, opinions vary
>widely... lol ; )
>
>Bill
>
>
>BTW, here's a good example of a "bad joke" I read the other day:
>
>These two muffins were in the oven. One muffin said, "Gosh, it's hot in
>here!" The other muffin went "Eeeek!!!, A talking muffin!"
>
>Dont' tell anyone you heard it from me--I'll deny it.
*NOBODY* with even half a bran would repeat that story.
Don't forget color.
A yellow color is like the sun and is much brighter than the same
in cool or other whites.
Martin
On 5/11/2011 12:14 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 10 May 2011 20:48:45 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Probably all of the regular readers hear are as familiar as they care to
>> be with my "shop lighting" plans. So I won't belabor them again.
>> Earlier, I was advised here to seek out "5000K" T8 bulbs. Reviewing my
>> notes, I saw I wrote that down a few times! : )
>>
>> Today I headed out into to cruel, understocked world, to pick up a
>> few items to begin my lighting experiments. Prices were noticeably
>> better at the BORGs than online. Along with a few fixtures I came home
>> with the bulbs:
>>
>> Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90.
>>
>> When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
>> Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
>> which is why I passed them up while I was there.
>>
>> I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
>> difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:
>>
>>
>> In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
>> suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
>> to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
>> advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
>> Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
>> about this are of course welcome too!
>
> I have trouble believing that the higher-lumen bulbs have a worse CRI.
> And the CRI differing that much for the same 5000k rating is odd.
>
> I'd opt for the brighter bulbs, Bill. And I'd get the box of 25.
> They're invariably -considerably- less expensive that way, like a buck
> or two cheaper each.
>
>
>> BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
>> incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
>> meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
>> listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to
>> actually get 80% of it.
>
> Especially after they get wood dust all over 'em. Efficiency report:
> http://www1.eere.energy.gov/femp/pdfs/fluor_lamps.pdf
>
>
>> I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
>> That's got to be better than the approach I was using. ;)
>
> A.R. Bill Rides Again!<snort>
>
>
>> For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and
>> washed at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering
>> to the suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it"
>> principle). About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on
>> leaving my poor wife to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a
>> 10% sale at Lowes last week, and got an additional 5% for getting a
>> Lowes CC, so I bit the bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and
>> wire you can get for the price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem
>> to take pride in pointing out..they don't wash dishes! ; )
>
> I suppose you then said "Well get in there and do them, woman. I'm
> going to the Borg to buy lamps& fixtures."<titter>
>
> --
> Woe be to him that reads but one book.
> -- George Herbert
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Wed, 11 May 2011 06:28:09 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>"Morgans" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>"Bill" wrote in Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens,
>CRI-90.
>
>When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
>Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
>which is why I passed them up while I was there.
>
>I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
>difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:
>
>
>In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
>suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
>to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
>advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
>Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
>about this are of course welcome too!
><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
>I seriously doubt that the difference in Lumens is anywhere near the
>difference as the specs would make you believe.
Which is brighter, a dual 32W 4' fluor lamp or one 60W bulb? (HINT:
The fluor puts out about _ten_times_ the light for 4 extra watts of
power.)
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>I would not, having been down the road and seen the difference. Lumens,
>not
>watts is what you are looking for. I have 40 watt florescent bulbs that
>look dim compared to the 32 32 watt 2700 limen bulbs.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The wattage is what tells the tale. Both are the same wattage. I doubt
>you
>could tell the difference looking at them side by side.
No, lumens tell the tale. A 23W CFL bulb is both brighter and nicer
than a yellow old incan 100W bulb.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Efficiency is what is going to matter here.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>You know how Sears power tools and such say they are 5 HP and use 110V and
>draw 13 amps, while other tools are 2 HP at the same voltage and amps? It
>is all in how you measure it.
>
>Not in this case.
Leon, until you figure out why WLM isn't putting in GT symbols, why
don't you do it manually? We still can't tell who's quoting whom
there. That only works for a single quotation.
GT is a simple symbol to insert - >, see?
>So the dashed line is too confusing? ;~)
>I'll look into it.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> Probably all of the regular readers hear are as familiar as they care to
> be with my "shop lighting" plans. So I won't belabor them again.
> Earlier, I was advised here to seek out "5000K" T8 bulbs. Reviewing my
> notes, I saw I wrote that down a few times! : )
>
> Today I headed out into to cruel, understocked world, to pick up a
> few items to begin my lighting experiments. Prices were noticeably
> better at the BORGs than online. Along with a few fixtures I came home
> with the bulbs:
>
> Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90.
>
> When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
> Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
> which is why I passed them up while I was there.
>
> I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
> difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:
>
>
> In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
> suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
> to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
> advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
> Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
> about this are of course welcome too!
>
>
> BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
> incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
> meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
> listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to
> actually get 80% of it.
>
> I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
> That's got to be better than the approach I was using. ;)
>
>
> For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and
> washed at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering
> to the suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it"
> principle). About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on
> leaving my poor wife to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a
> 10% sale at Lowes last week, and got an additional 5% for getting a
> Lowes CC, so I bit the bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and
> wire you can get for the price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem
> to take pride in pointing out..they don't wash dishes! ; )
>
> Sorry if I've distracted you, my main concern is about those 2
> categories of 5000K, T8 bulbs.
Looking at their web site, the Sylvanias you have seem to be some kind
of special purpose bulb, however I couldn't tell much more--their web
site is a model of worthlessness. They do have others that have
illumination levels more in line with the Phillips. I'd take them
back.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> "Bill" wrote in Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens,
> CRI-90.
>
> When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
> Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
> which is why I passed them up while I was there.
>
> I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
> difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:
>
>
> In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
> suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
> to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
> advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
> Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
> about this are of course welcome too!
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> I seriously doubt that the difference in Lumens is anywhere near the
> difference as the specs would make you believe.
>
> The wattage is what tells the tale. Both are the same wattage. I doubt you
> could tell the difference looking at them side by side.
You might be surprised. Brightness in fluorescent lamps comes from
phosphor chemistry as well as wattage. The particular lamps that he has
seem to have compromised efficiency to gain a 90 CRI. The same company
makes 5000K F32T8 lamps with a 2700 lumen output and an 85 CRI.
> You know how Sears power tools and such say they are 5 HP and use 110V and
> draw 13 amps, while other tools are 2 HP at the same voltage and amps? It
> is all in how you measure it.
However the same company measuring the same way has bulbs that have
specifications almost identical to the Phillips he's looking at. It's
not "Sears vs Ingersoll-Rand" or whatever, it's more like an induction
motor vs a universal motor.
> You want to get some really big time light? Go with an 8 foot high output
> fixture. Wow!
>
> -- Jim in NC
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> Larry Jaques wrote:
>
> > But I got hooked on Griffin when a friend recommended the President's
> > Agent books. They were so good, I started the Corps series. I'll
> > probably continue on with the Badge of Honor series, too. Our library
> > has only the books on tape for the Brotherhood of War series. This guy
> > has written over forty books. I finished the entire Louis L'Amour set
> > a few months ago, along with some McMurtry and Elmer Kelton.
>
> That Griffin guy must write dern good!
> Come on now, is military fiction really better than a "Rocky" movie? ;)
>
> >
> > With no television to infect me, I get more projects done and read
> > lots of books for fun. I have an entire 3x7' bookshelf as an inbox for
> > gardening, DIY, sci-fi, western, military fiction, woodworking, and
> > metalworking books. Slowly but surely...
>
> I enjoy trying to keep up with my inbox too. Aren't you working on your
> musicianship too? We have been discussing the idea of dropping Comcast
> cable-tv service in our household (when our introductory "triple-play
> discount" runs out soon). That doesn't mean that we'd be television-free
> though. I just recently started exploring my options.
> I could get by well-enough with MSNBC and PBS. Throw in a local network
> for weather and JJ, and everyone is basically happy. I'll see if you
> can guess what JJ stands for.
I have no idea what "JJ" is but for weather there are several web sites
that do as good a job on local forecasts as your average TV weatherman.
"Weather Underground" is one--<http://www.wunderground.com/>.
For entertainment programming, between Hulu and the various networks'
Web sites you can see most shows without paying for them, but you will
have to sit through ads.
I really like the 6500 K fluorescent tubes for working, whether shop or
kitchen. I do **NOT** like the 6500K CFL bulbs though. I find them harsh and
too cold for anything. The long tubes are better suited anywhere in that
temp colour but not the CFLs???
ON a side note We have many pot lights in home and many have 6500K CFLs in
them. The light is a nice colour but we constantly come home at nights to
find them on around the house. If you have any daylight coming in windows
you don't notice when the bulbs are on upon leaving. The colour matched the
window light so well it isn't noticed until dark outside.
The 5000K CFLs look about the same except appear to have a reddish tinge to
them and a little less briliiance.
The 2700K - 3000K are needed for TV watching and bedroom usage. The 2700K
are a bit too yellowish for me and it feels too dark with them. More
"wattage" is required.
"DJ Delorie" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
IMHO I think a big factor in deciding between 3000k (warm) and 5000k
(cool) or even 6500k (daylight) bulbs is the following...
Where will the stuff you're making be seen?
If you're making indoor furniture, stick with warm bulbs, because most
people use warm bulbs in their houses.
If you're making outdoor stuff, go with cool or daylight bulbs.
For office furniture, stick with warm-cool (flourescent). Etc.
The idea is, you'll be seeing the finish in your shop, the same color as
the customer will be seeing it when they bring it home.
"Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Leon wrote:
> "Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Probably all of the regular readers hear are as familiar as they care to
> be with my "shop lighting" plans. So I won't belabor them again.
> Earlier, I was advised here to seek out "5000K" T8 bulbs. Reviewing my
> notes, I saw I wrote that down a few times! : )
>
> Today I headed out into to cruel, understocked world, to pick up a
> few items to begin my lighting experiments. Prices were noticeably
> better at the BORGs than online. Along with a few fixtures I came home
> with the bulbs:
>
> Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90.
>
> When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
> Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
> which is why I passed them up while I was there.
>
> I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
> difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:
>
>
> In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
> suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
> to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
> advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
> Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
> about this are of course welcome too!
>
>
> BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
> incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
> meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
> listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to
> actually get 80% of it.
>
> I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
> That's got to be better than the approach I was using. ;)
>
>
> For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and
> washed at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering
> to the suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it"
> principle). About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on
> leaving my poor wife to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a
> 10% sale at Lowes last week, and got an additional 5% for getting a
> Lowes CC, so I bit the bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and
> wire you can get for the price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem
> to take pride in pointing out..they don't wash dishes! ; )
>
> Sorry if I've distracted you, my main concern is about those 2
> categories of 5000K, T8 bulbs.
>
> Thank you,
> Bill
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> FYI, I am in a new house with a 3 car garage. For a short period I had 2,
> 60 watt incandescent bulbs for lighting with light beige walls.
> I put in a door opener that uses 2, 100 watt CF bulbs and I replaced the 2
> 60 watt bulbs with the same. So thee I had 400 watts of lighting. What a
> difference.
>
> Now I have added 4, 8' fixtures that hold 4, T8 bulbs each, 16 total 4'
> bulbs. These are Phillips Daylight Deluxe 2700 lumen bulbs. Almost
> brighter than day light in there now. If fact if the garage door is open
> during the day it covers 4 of the bulbs and it is just not quite as
> bright.
>
> You want at least the 2700 lumen bulbs! BTY I painted the walls white
> with
> a satin sheen and those 4, 100 watt CFR bulbs still light up but look dim
> by
> comparison.
>
>
Thank you, and everyone else who offered suggestions. Your comments on
your experience that you shared above are definitely helpful.
My "maximal plan" would have 22 T8 bulbs (11 4' fixtures), in my 20' by
25' space, on 3 switches. One switch would have just two fixtures over
my workbench/table (I think of that as "mood lighting", sort of
comparable to light over a pool table) and the other 9 would be divided
among the other 2 switches. I will do some actual experiments in the
immediate future to help me decide whether this many bulbs produces more
light than I want or not.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
32 watts per bulb would = 704 watts. I have 712 counting the 2, CF bulbs in
the regular sockets. The switch for your work bench is probably a good idea
but it would be nothing for a single switch to handle the rest of the
lighting, unless you simply want to not light up the whole area.
The way I am planning to do the wiring (EMT/THHN) offers considerable
latitude in reassigning lights to switches. For my 3 hot wires A, B, C
I'll have an A-B row, and two B-C rows. Thus I'll be running just 4
wires, 2 hots, White and Ground along each of my three rows of fixtures.
My uncle explained to me why he didn't think I should use the metal
conduit as a ground (even though it may be allowable).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I simply tied into the existing light boxes in the attic, they had extra
terminals for that purpose.
"Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Probably all of the regular readers hear are as familiar as they care to
be with my "shop lighting" plans. So I won't belabor them again.
Earlier, I was advised here to seek out "5000K" T8 bulbs. Reviewing my
notes, I saw I wrote that down a few times! : )
Today I headed out into to cruel, understocked world, to pick up a
few items to begin my lighting experiments. Prices were noticeably
better at the BORGs than online. Along with a few fixtures I came home
with the bulbs:
Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90.
When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
which is why I passed them up while I was there.
I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:
In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
about this are of course welcome too!
BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to
actually get 80% of it.
I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
That's got to be better than the approach I was using. ;)
For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and
washed at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering
to the suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it"
principle). About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on
leaving my poor wife to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a
10% sale at Lowes last week, and got an additional 5% for getting a
Lowes CC, so I bit the bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and
wire you can get for the price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem
to take pride in pointing out..they don't wash dishes! ; )
Sorry if I've distracted you, my main concern is about those 2
categories of 5000K, T8 bulbs.
Thank you,
Bill
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI, I am in a new house with a 3 car garage. For a short period I had 2,
60 watt incandescent bulbs for lighting with light beige walls.
I put in a door opener that uses 2, 100 watt CF bulbs and I replaced the 2
60 watt bulbs with the same. So thee I had 400 watts of lighting. What a
difference.
Now I have added 4, 8' fixtures that hold 4, T8 bulbs each, 16 total 4'
bulbs. These are Phillips Daylight Deluxe 2700 lumen bulbs. Almost
brighter than day light in there now. If fact if the garage door is open
during the day it covers 4 of the bulbs and it is just not quite as bright.
You want at least the 2700 lumen bulbs! BTY I painted the walls white with
a satin sheen and those 4, 100 watt CFR bulbs still light up but look dim by
comparison.
"Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Well, now I have 3 fixtures and new bulbs like Leon has, I think (GE,
32w, 5000K, 2800 Lumens). So I'm going to assemble one of the biggest
sawhorsies you ever saw, using "old-style sawhorse hinges and
full-length tubafours spanned by an 8' tubafour. We (I) will find out,
whether 3 fixtures in the span of 8 feet produces "too much" light or
not!!! : ) Better to find out now, than after the fixtures are screwed
down. Larry recommended an experiment of this sort back when there was
snow on the ground but it's hard for me to keep up with him. ; ) I hope
he's got his cantilevered-roof project completed by now...
How about screwing in a simple eye-bolt or hook and
attach the fixture's with some string hanging from the hook, to see how they
are going to work.
In a startlingly-related domestic item, today my wife brought home some
sort of laserbeam shooter to help put up drapes. I thought
(*click*)--that's just what I need to use to help get my fixtures lined
up (in rows and columns) like "ducks in a row"! I had been planning to
stretch some twine I have. Question: Are there any techniques that go
along with this sort of technology to insure right angles? I expect
eye-balling it will give me decent results. I thought to put the 3
fixtures across the middle of the ceiling first, and then put 3 more on
each side of them (making a 3 by 3 grid). Larry will probably say I've
over-thought it, but I think my approach will produce better results
than if I just worked from one row to the next.
I simply looked at which direction the ceiling
joists ran and used a stack of rare earth magnets to locate them. I
measured from the wall to insure that the fixtures were parallel to a wall.
It seemed to go from 50 degrees to 85 degree very quickly in my locale
(IN). Plenty warm enough for joint compound to set now! : )
Oh keep in mind that these lamps will take a
short period of time to come up to full brightness in cool weather.
The remarkable phenomenon to me, that I've already experienced a few
times in the last few days, and I sort of forgot about since last
summer, is how once I get started on the work--say even by just moving
stuff around, something else kicks in and takes over and it doesn't seem
as much like work.
I was thinking about this while driving today. Surely influenced by my
recent reading of the book "Shop Class as Soulcraft" (Matthew Crawford).
The phenomenon may have something to do with the personal process of
changing physical stuff. Jokingly I thought (yeah, I tell jokes to
myself...), even if you miss the nail and hit your finger with the
hammer, it may be more satisfying than if you never had a chance to
swing the hammer. In earlier years, I earned several blood
blisters...lol..none lately. Surely, I just cursed myself... : )
Bill
WTF is with all these half-baked jokes?
Glad we don't hear them too oven.
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Your reputation is in crumbs from that one, Bobby.
Butter think twice before doing something like that again.
The great thing about getting older is that
you don't lose all the other ages you've been.
-- Madeleine L'Engle
On Sat, 21 May 2011 03:09:43 -0500, [email protected]
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:
*NOBODY* with even half a bran would repeat that story.
In article <[email protected]>, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
BTW, here's a good example of a "bad joke" I read the other day:
These two muffins were in the oven. One muffin said, "Gosh, it's hot in
here!" The other muffin went "Eeeek!!!, A talking muffin!"
Dont' tell anyone you heard it from me--I'll deny it.
Learn the difference between "Lumens" and "Lux" and your understanding of
these matters will likely be better.
--------------
"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
about this are of course welcome too!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I seriously doubt that the difference in Lumens is anywhere near the
difference as the specs would make you believe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would not, having been down the road and seen the difference. Lumens, not
watts is what you are looking for. I have 40 watt florescent bulbs that
look dim compared to the 32 32 watt 2700 limen bulbs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The wattage is what tells the tale. Both are the same wattage. I doubt you
could tell the difference looking at them side by side.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Efficiency is what is going to matter here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You know how Sears power tools and such say they are 5 HP and use 110V and
draw 13 amps, while other tools are 2 HP at the same voltage and amps? It
is all in how you measure it.
Not in this case.
What I did over my wood lathe and metal lathe - create a wood box
and put a bright headlight into it. Then Slave a 12V a.c. transformer
to them and turn on the light. Nice spot on the work area.
Lasts a long time - designed for it. Bright. Replaceable.
Easy.
Martin
On 5/11/2011 8:48 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2011 09:44:07 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/light-level-rooms-d_708.html
>>
>> Normal Drawing Work, Detailed Mechanical Workshops, Operation
>> Theatres 1,000 lux
>
> Like the 500W halogen spotlight over dental chairs and ER tables?
> Right. We need that kind of light to cut wood.<g>
>
>
>> Detailed Drawing Work, Very Detailed Mechanical Works 1500 - 2000 lux
>>
>> I'd say woodworking fits into the detailed mechanical work format.
>> 1254 lux is bright but none too bright. You would still need task
>> lighting for dovetail work.
>
> I wouldn't. And I would truly want to wear sunglasses in that shop.
>
> We all have different requirements, don't we?
>
> --
> Woe be to him that reads but one book.
> -- George Herbert
Sorry, I was trying to give you a helping hand hoping you may learn in the
right direction.
Since you still demonstrate ignorance , of this difference, in bulb
construction, I will leave you with it.
-----------
"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Perhaps you should do the research yourself, I have and am happy with the
results
We certainly do not know how much light is being reflected off the walls and
objects in the room so the Lux measurement is a moot point. Since we are
comparing what we do know, lumens and watts, that is the only measurement
that one can use in determining how much light to expect from a particular
lamp.
----------------
"Josepi" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Learn the difference between "Lumens" and "Lux" and your understanding of
these matters will likely be better.
On May 11, 10:59=A0am, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> "Larry Jaques" =A0wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> On Wed, 11 May 2011 00:57:29 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> >My "maximal plan" would have 22 T8 bulbs (11 4' fixtures), in my 20' by
>
> Let's see, 22 x 2,700 lumens =3D 59,400 lumens. That's the equivalent of
> almost SEVENTY ONE 60W bulbs. =A0Now do you see why that's absolute
> overkill to the Nth degree? =A0I still think that you'd have plenty of
> light with 4 fixtures in addition to the two which are already up
> there, and adding spot illumination where necessary.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
>
> That is only 6 more tubes than in my shop of similar size and that certai=
nly
> is not nay where near over kill, speaking from experience.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
>
> Power used by 11 fixtures (bulbs + ballasts) would be about a
> horsepower and a half, 1100W all the time you're in the shop.
> Even fluor can get expensive to run if there's too much of it.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
> BS! =A022 bulbs only uses 704 watts. =A0At 10 cents per kilowatt hour tha=
t is
> about 7 cents per hour or 56 cents per 8 hour day.
I have 6 - 2 bulb 4' fixtures in my 24 x 32 shop and I think its a bit
much....My fixtures are 8' high up.
On Sat, 21 May 2011 03:09:43 -0500, [email protected]
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>BTW, here's a good example of a "bad joke" I read the other day:
>>
>>These two muffins were in the oven. One muffin said, "Gosh, it's hot in
>>here!" The other muffin went "Eeeek!!!, A talking muffin!"
>>
>>Dont' tell anyone you heard it from me--I'll deny it.
>
>*NOBODY* with even half a bran would repeat that story.
Your reputation is in crumbs from that one, Bobby.
Butter think twice before doing something like that again.
The great thing about getting older is that
you don't lose all the other ages you've been.
-- Madeleine L'Engle
On Fri, 13 May 2011 02:00:31 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> I got a dozen pages in and found my mind wandering so I put it back on
>> the shelf. When I'm done with W.E.B. Griffin's _The Corps_ tomes, I
>> may pick it back up. (I have 3.5 to go.)
>>
>Wow! Did you serve in the marines?
No, I lucked out of service in Vietnam by moving back from school in
AZ to home in CA. The CA draft board was full up when I got back. I
was an Air Force brat. Dad retired after his lifer term +6 was up.
But I got hooked on Griffin when a friend recommended the President's
Agent books. They were so good, I started the Corps series. I'll
probably continue on with the Badge of Honor series, too. Our library
has only the books on tape for the Brotherhood of War series. This guy
has written over forty books. I finished the entire Louis L'Amour set
a few months ago, along with some McMurtry and Elmer Kelton.
With no television to infect me, I get more projects done and read
lots of books for fun. I have an entire 3x7' bookshelf as an inbox for
gardening, DIY, sci-fi, western, military fiction, woodworking, and
metalworking books. Slowly but surely...
--
If we attend continually and promptly to the little that
we can do, we shall ere long be surprised to find how
little remains that we cannot do. -- Samuel Butler
On Wed, 11 May 2011 06:28:09 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>"Morgans" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>"Bill" wrote in Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens,
>CRI-90.
>
>When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
>Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
>which is why I passed them up while I was there.
>
>I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
>difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:
>
>
>In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
>suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
>to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
>advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
>Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
>about this are of course welcome too!
><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
>I seriously doubt that the difference in Lumens is anywhere near the
>difference as the specs would make you believe.
Which is brighter, a dual 32W 4' fluor lamp or one 60W bulb? (HINT:
The fluor puts out about _ten_times_ the light for 4 extra watts of
power.)
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>I would not, having been down the road and seen the difference. Lumens, not
>watts is what you are looking for. I have 40 watt florescent bulbs that
>look dim compared to the 32 32 watt 2700 limen bulbs.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The wattage is what tells the tale. Both are the same wattage. I doubt you
>could tell the difference looking at them side by side.
No, lumens tell the tale. A 23W CFL bulb is both brighter and nicer
than a yellow old incan 100W bulb.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Efficiency is what is going to matter here.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>You know how Sears power tools and such say they are 5 HP and use 110V and
>draw 13 amps, while other tools are 2 HP at the same voltage and amps? It
>is all in how you measure it.
>
>Not in this case.
Leon, until you figure out why WLM isn't putting in GT symbols, why
don't you do it manually? We still can't tell who's quoting whom
there. That only works for a single quotation.
GT is a simple symbol to insert - >, see?
--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert
On Wed, 11 May 2011 00:57:29 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>My "maximal plan" would have 22 T8 bulbs (11 4' fixtures), in my 20' by
Let's see, 22 x 2,700 lumens = 59,400 lumens. That's the equivalent of
almost SEVENTY ONE 60W bulbs. Now do you see why that's absolute
overkill to the Nth degree? I still think that you'd have plenty of
light with 4 fixtures in addition to the two which are already up
there, and adding spot illumination where necessary.
Power used by 11 fixtures (bulbs + ballasts) would be about a
horsepower and a half, 1100W all the time you're in the shop.
Even fluor can get expensive to run if there's too much of it.
>25' space, on 3 switches. One switch would have just two fixtures over
>my workbench/table (I think of that as "mood lighting", sort of
>comparable to light over a pool table) and the other 9 would be divided
>among the other 2 switches. I will do some actual experiments in the
>immediate future to help me decide whether this many bulbs produces more
>light than I want or not.
You'll need an arc welding helmet to walk in that Lew-Approved(tmLJ)
room. Time for cataract surgery so you can see again, guys.
>The way I am planning to do the wiring (EMT/THHN) offers considerable
>latitude in reassigning lights to switches. For my 3 hot wires A, B, C
>I'll have an A-B row, and two B-C rows. Thus I'll be running just 4
>wires, 2 hots, White and Ground along each of my three rows of fixtures.
> My uncle explained to me why he didn't think I should use the metal
>conduit as a ground (even though it may be allowable).
Not only is it illegal in most places, it's a safety hazard. If you
lost your neutral (white wire), you'd have current (plus the resultant
resistances) in iffy connections, which could be a fire hazard.
--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert
On Wed, 11 May 2011 09:59:33 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>On Wed, 11 May 2011 00:57:29 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>My "maximal plan" would have 22 T8 bulbs (11 4' fixtures), in my 20' by
>
>Let's see, 22 x 2,700 lumens = 59,400 lumens. That's the equivalent of
>almost SEVENTY ONE 60W bulbs. Now do you see why that's absolute
>overkill to the Nth degree? I still think that you'd have plenty of
>light with 4 fixtures in addition to the two which are already up
>there, and adding spot illumination where necessary.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>That is only 6 more tubes than in my shop of similar size and that certainly
>is not nay where near over kill, speaking from experience.
What color are your walls, ceiling, and floor painted?
If they're not all white, they're sucking up lots of lumens.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Power used by 11 fixtures (bulbs + ballasts) would be about a
>horsepower and a half, 1100W all the time you're in the shop.
>Even fluor can get expensive to run if there's too much of it.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>BS! 22 bulbs only uses 704 watts. At 10 cents per kilowatt hour that is
>about 7 cents per hour or 56 cents per 8 hour day.
What are your ballast figures? You're quoting only bulb wattage.
--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert
On Wed, 11 May 2011 02:12:52 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
><snip>
>
>>> BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
>>> incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
>>> meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
>>> listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to
>>> actually get 80% of it.
>>
>> Especially after they get wood dust all over 'em. Efficiency report:
>> http://www1.eere.energy.gov/femp/pdfs/fluor_lamps.pdf
>
>Hey, that was pretty interesting!
Yeah, but take it with a grain of salt. It was, you see, a gov't pub.
>>> I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
>>> That's got to be better than the approach I was using. ;)
>>
>> A.R. Bill Rides Again!<snort>
>
> You write that as if attention to detail is a bad thing...
Nah, not bad. Just humorous to others.
>>> For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and
>>> washed at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering
>>> to the suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it"
>>> principle). About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on
>>> leaving my poor wife to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a
>>> 10% sale at Lowes last week, and got an additional 5% for getting a
>>> Lowes CC, so I bit the bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and
>>> wire you can get for the price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem
>>> to take pride in pointing out..they don't wash dishes! ; )
>>
>> I suppose you then said "Well get in there and do them, woman. I'm
>> going to the Borg to buy lamps& fixtures."<titter>
>
>Naw..I'm a little more discreet about my shopping than that. But if
>conversation should turn in that direction, I'll be ready with: "That
>dang dishwasher cost ne'r twice as much as all of my light fixtures
>combined!" (there's no need to confuse matters with the box of bulbs or
>the spools of wire...) ;)
Smart man.
>By the way, what Mike M. termed the "DP Baseboard of my dreams" this
>past winter may finally be constructed in the next few days. The weather
Don't be surprised if you get as much flak as I did with my bow saur
project in the last century. Har!
>and a few other matters held me off-track until now. I might start
>sooner, but I've got to go bulb shopping again tomorrow... I hope
>someone here is amused by my humble attempts at humor... The "Mrs."
>doesn't think I have a good sense of humor...beyond that, opinions vary
>widely... lol ; )
You have...?, er, never mind. <giggle>
>BTW, here's a good example of a "bad joke" I read the other day:
>
>These two muffins were in the oven. One muffin said, "Gosh, it's hot in
>here!" The other muffin went "Eeeek!!!, A talking muffin!"
>
>Dont' tell anyone you heard it from me--I'll deny it.
I don't doubt that.
--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Wed, 11 May 2011 09:59:33 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>On Wed, 11 May 2011 00:57:29 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>My "maximal plan" would have 22 T8 bulbs (11 4' fixtures), in my 20' by
>
>Let's see, 22 x 2,700 lumens = 59,400 lumens. That's the equivalent of
>almost SEVENTY ONE 60W bulbs. Now do you see why that's absolute
>overkill to the Nth degree? I still think that you'd have plenty of
>light with 4 fixtures in addition to the two which are already up
>there, and adding spot illumination where necessary.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>That is only 6 more tubes than in my shop of similar size and that
>certainly
>is not nay where near over kill, speaking from experience.
>
?What color are your walls, ceiling, and floor painted?
?If they're not all white, they're sucking up lots of lumens.
White for the walls, the concrete floor is light grey and the ceiling is
light beige.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Power used by 11 fixtures (bulbs + ballasts) would be about a
>horsepower and a half, 1100W all the time you're in the shop.
>Even fluor can get expensive to run if there's too much of it.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>BS! 22 bulbs only uses 704 watts. At 10 cents per kilowatt hour that is
>about 7 cents per hour or 56 cents per 8 hour day.
>?What are your ballast figures? You're quoting only bulb wattage.
Clueless, Solid State.
J. Clarke wrote:
>> Sorry if I've distracted you, my main concern is about those 2
>> categories of 5000K, T8 bulbs.
>
> Looking at their web site, the Sylvanias you have seem to be some kind
> of special purpose bulb, however I couldn't tell much more--their web
> site is a model of worthlessness. They do have others that have
> illumination levels more in line with the Phillips.
Yes, but not inventoried at Home Depot or Menards.
> I'd take them back.
Yep! Will do!
Thanks,
Bill
Leon wrote:
> "Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Probably all of the regular readers hear are as familiar as they care to
> be with my "shop lighting" plans. So I won't belabor them again.
> Earlier, I was advised here to seek out "5000K" T8 bulbs. Reviewing my
> notes, I saw I wrote that down a few times! : )
>
> Today I headed out into to cruel, understocked world, to pick up a
> few items to begin my lighting experiments. Prices were noticeably
> better at the BORGs than online. Along with a few fixtures I came home
> with the bulbs:
>
> Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90.
>
> When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
> Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
> which is why I passed them up while I was there.
>
> I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
> difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:
>
>
> In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
> suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
> to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
> advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
> Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
> about this are of course welcome too!
>
>
> BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
> incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
> meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
> listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to
> actually get 80% of it.
>
> I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
> That's got to be better than the approach I was using. ;)
>
>
> For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and
> washed at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering
> to the suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it"
> principle). About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on
> leaving my poor wife to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a
> 10% sale at Lowes last week, and got an additional 5% for getting a
> Lowes CC, so I bit the bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and
> wire you can get for the price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem
> to take pride in pointing out..they don't wash dishes! ; )
>
> Sorry if I've distracted you, my main concern is about those 2
> categories of 5000K, T8 bulbs.
>
> Thank you,
> Bill
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> FYI, I am in a new house with a 3 car garage. For a short period I had 2,
> 60 watt incandescent bulbs for lighting with light beige walls.
> I put in a door opener that uses 2, 100 watt CF bulbs and I replaced the 2
> 60 watt bulbs with the same. So thee I had 400 watts of lighting. What a
> difference.
>
> Now I have added 4, 8' fixtures that hold 4, T8 bulbs each, 16 total 4'
> bulbs. These are Phillips Daylight Deluxe 2700 lumen bulbs. Almost
> brighter than day light in there now. If fact if the garage door is open
> during the day it covers 4 of the bulbs and it is just not quite as bright.
>
> You want at least the 2700 lumen bulbs! BTY I painted the walls white with
> a satin sheen and those 4, 100 watt CFR bulbs still light up but look dim by
> comparison.
>
>
Thank you, and everyone else who offered suggestions. Your comments on
your experience that you shared above are definitely helpful.
My "maximal plan" would have 22 T8 bulbs (11 4' fixtures), in my 20' by
25' space, on 3 switches. One switch would have just two fixtures over
my workbench/table (I think of that as "mood lighting", sort of
comparable to light over a pool table) and the other 9 would be divided
among the other 2 switches. I will do some actual experiments in the
immediate future to help me decide whether this many bulbs produces more
light than I want or not.
The way I am planning to do the wiring (EMT/THHN) offers considerable
latitude in reassigning lights to switches. For my 3 hot wires A, B, C
I'll have an A-B row, and two B-C rows. Thus I'll be running just 4
wires, 2 hots, White and Ground along each of my three rows of fixtures.
My uncle explained to me why he didn't think I should use the metal
conduit as a ground (even though it may be allowable).
Bill
Larry Jaques wrote:
<snip>
>> BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
>> incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
>> meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
>> listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to
>> actually get 80% of it.
>
> Especially after they get wood dust all over 'em. Efficiency report:
> http://www1.eere.energy.gov/femp/pdfs/fluor_lamps.pdf
Hey, that was pretty interesting!
>
>
>> I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
>> That's got to be better than the approach I was using. ;)
>
> A.R. Bill Rides Again!<snort>
You write that as if attention to detail is a bad thing...
>
>
>> For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and
>> washed at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering
>> to the suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it"
>> principle). About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on
>> leaving my poor wife to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a
>> 10% sale at Lowes last week, and got an additional 5% for getting a
>> Lowes CC, so I bit the bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and
>> wire you can get for the price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem
>> to take pride in pointing out..they don't wash dishes! ; )
>
> I suppose you then said "Well get in there and do them, woman. I'm
> going to the Borg to buy lamps& fixtures."<titter>
Naw..I'm a little more discreet about my shopping than that. But if
conversation should turn in that direction, I'll be ready with: "That
dang dishwasher cost ne'r twice as much as all of my light fixtures
combined!" (there's no need to confuse matters with the box of bulbs or
the spools of wire...) ;)
By the way, what Mike M. termed the "DP Baseboard of my dreams" this
past winter may finally be constructed in the next few days. The weather
and a few other matters held me off-track until now. I might start
sooner, but I've got to go bulb shopping again tomorrow... I hope
someone here is amused by my humble attempts at humor... The "Mrs."
doesn't think I have a good sense of humor...beyond that, opinions vary
widely... lol ; )
Bill
BTW, here's a good example of a "bad joke" I read the other day:
These two muffins were in the oven. One muffin said, "Gosh, it's hot in
here!" The other muffin went "Eeeek!!!, A talking muffin!"
Dont' tell anyone you heard it from me--I'll deny it.
>
> --
> Woe be to him that reads but one book.
> -- George Herbert
Larry Jaques wrote:
>> By the way, what Mike M. termed the "DP Baseboard of my dreams" this
>> past winter may finally be constructed in the next few days.
>
> Don't be surprised if you get as much flak as I did with my bow saur
> project in the last century. Har!
Larry,
The reputation of your bow saur is renown (had to consult my the-saurus
there...)! Have you published a magazine article about it, or a photo
or video somewhere?
Bill
Leon wrote:
> I simply tied into the existing light boxes in the attic, they had extra
> terminals for that purpose.
>
That's a pretty good idea. It's one that was evidently well-exploited
before I arrived on the scene and it helps gives me a historical
perspective. I will keep the lesson in mind for my future use!
Thanks,
Bill
[email protected] wrote:
> 20' x 25' is roughly 6 meters by 8 meters. 47 square meters. Divide
> 59,400 lumens by 47 square meters and you get 1254 lux. Which fits in
> very well with the following chart.
>
> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/light-level-rooms-d_708.html
Thanks for calculating and posting the link above. It gives a very
helpful perspective!
Bill
dadiOH wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Probably all of the regular readers hear are as familiar as they care
>> to be with my "shop lighting" plans. So I won't belabor them again.
>> Earlier, I was advised here to seek out "5000K" T8 bulbs. Reviewing my
>> notes, I saw I wrote that down a few times! : )
>>
>> Today I headed out into to cruel, understocked world, to pick up a
>> few items to begin my lighting experiments. Prices were noticeably
>> better at the BORGs than online. Along with a few fixtures I came
>> home with the bulbs:
>>
>> Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90.
>>
>> When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K,
>> 2850 Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25
>> (only), which is why I passed them up while I was there.
>>
>> I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
>> difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:
>>
>>
>> In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
>> suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
>> to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
>> advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
>> Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
>> about this are of course welcome too!
>
>
> Facts& Opinion
>
> There are two bad lighting conditions in any workspace: under lighted and
> over lighted; one is as bad as the other IME.
>
> The Kelvin rating of the bulbs is relatively unimportant as all fluorescent
> bulbs are deficient in red; 5000K is fine.
>
> For general illumination in a shop you want about 70 footcandles per ft.sq.;
> for task lighting, around 100-150.
>
> Lumens and footcandles are measuring two different things; however, for your
> purpose, you can consider them to be 1:1.
>
>
> The intensity of light varies inversely to the square of the distance.
> __________________
>
> Procedure
>
> 1. Add up the total potential lumens from all bulbs
>
> 2. Divide the total by the area of your shop. You now have the maximum
> light AT ONE FOOT FROM THE BULBS
>
> 3. Apply the inverse square law to determine light at work surface height.
> a. at two feet from bulb, light will be 1/2...at 4', 1/4...etc.
>
Let's see:
(1) 2700 lumens x 22 bulbs = 59,400 lumens
(2) 59,400 lumesn/500 ft^2 = 118.8 lumes/ft^2.
(3) If my lights are at 8 ft and I work at 4 ft, then I'm supposed to
divide the 118.8 by 4 (or 16, I think--Pi are square), giving 29.7 or
7.425 lumens.
I think it makes more sense to perform the calculations "locally" (in
the areas where it matters) and I may do so. But, for the sake of
discussion, I assume the 118 figure the one to use in your general
guidelines below?
> For general illumination in a shop you want about 70 footcandles per
> ft.sq.; for task lighting, around 100-150.
Perhaps you can help me resolve and/or interpret my calculation in (3)?
Thanks!
Bill
Well, now I have 3 fixtures and new bulbs like Leon has, I think (GE,
32w, 5000K, 2800 Lumens). So I'm going to assemble one of the biggest
sawhorsies you ever saw, using "old-style sawhorse hinges and
full-length tubafours spanned by an 8' tubafour. We (I) will find out,
whether 3 fixtures in the span of 8 feet produces "too much" light or
not!!! : ) Better to find out now, than after the fixtures are screwed
down. Larry recommended an experiment of this sort back when there was
snow on the ground but it's hard for me to keep up with him. ; ) I hope
he's got his cantilevered-roof project completed by now...
In a startlingly-related domestic item, today my wife brought home some
sort of laserbeam shooter to help put up drapes. I thought
(*click*)--that's just what I need to use to help get my fixtures lined
up (in rows and columns) like "ducks in a row"! I had been planning to
stretch some twine I have. Question: Are there any techniques that go
along with this sort of technology to insure right angles? I expect
eye-balling it will give me decent results. I thought to put the 3
fixtures across the middle of the ceiling first, and then put 3 more on
each side of them (making a 3 by 3 grid). Larry will probably say I've
over-thought it, but I think my approach will produce better results
than if I just worked from one row to the next.
It seemed to go from 50 degrees to 85 degree very quickly in my locale
(IN). Plenty warm enough for joint compound to set now! : )
The remarkable phenomenon to me, that I've already experienced a few
times in the last few days, and I sort of forgot about since last
summer, is how once I get started on the work--say even by just moving
stuff around, something else kicks in and takes over and it doesn't seem
as much like work.
I was thinking about this while driving today. Surely influenced by my
recent reading of the book "Shop Class as Soulcraft" (Matthew Crawford).
The phenomenon may have something to do with the personal process of
changing physical stuff. Jokingly I thought (yeah, I tell jokes to
myself...), even if you miss the nail and hit your finger with the
hammer, it may be more satisfying than if you never had a chance to
swing the hammer. In earlier years, I earned several blood
blisters...lol..none lately. Surely, I just cursed myself... : )
Bill
Larry Jaques wrote:
>>Larry recommended an experiment of that sort back when there was
>> snow on the ground but it's hard for me to keep up with him. ; ) I hope
>> he's got his cantilevered-roof project completed by now...
>
> HUH? The last "roof" I did was the PT and steel roofing over my 8x12'
> patio.
Yep, that's the project I meant. Has that project been signed-off on yet?
>
>
>> In a startlingly-related domestic item, today my wife brought home some
>> sort of laserbeam shooter to help put up drapes. I thought
>> (*click*)--that's just what I need to use to help get my fixtures lined
>> up (in rows and columns) like "ducks in a row"! I had been planning to
>> stretch some twine I have. Question: Are there any techniques that go
>> along with this sort of technology to insure right angles? I expect
>
> If she didn't get you a Straitline Intersect (or equiv) have her go do
> the right thing. If you want to shoot perpendicular lines, you need a
> 2-line laser. http://goo.gl/DDsI2 or 5-line? http://goo.gl/Bsdox
I think I'll have to get by with one laser and a framing square--or like
Leon said, measuring from a wall. I don't trust my walls as much as I do
a laser though. Unfortunately, my mom gave away my dad's transit (it
had no laser)..lol, I have his slide rule! ;)
>
> If it ain't thunk, rethunk, double-rethunk, tossed around, batted back
> and forth, laid up, drawn out, and hammered into place at least
> 'lebenty seven times, Bill wasn't there. He's a glue and brad and
> belt and suspenders and chain and tape and string kind of guy. ;)
> But he does nice work.
LOL...Gosh, can I put you down as a reference? I believe from
indirectly-related experience that design and development is a
"circular" process (not that many contractors would probably care to
admit it). James Krenov probably used a spherical process! ;) I'm
pleased that you are willing to give me credit for doing "nice work"
even though I haven't provided you with many samples. My neighbor, a
plumber, told me his reputation is on the line on every piece of work he
does. As one of my harshest critics, I think LH is even tougher! :)
Who ya gonna call? --the guy who just hammers it up there (he,
coincidentally, used to live where I do now), or the guys who shows you
a few SketchUp models first (Swingman and Leon)? : ) You may have heard
the analogy that begins, "Quality is like buying oats, if you want nice
clean, fresh oats...".
>
> I'll have to start that [Shop Class as Soulcraft] again some day soon. You really have to pay
> attention to him to "get it".
IMO, Those parts are the best parts of the book, in particular where he
has included thoughtful excerpts from the works of other scholars. I
thought some of the middle chapters contained an awful lot of "padding",
but I think the book began and ended strong. As an academic with such
strong credentials, I thought he should have known to cut, re-cut,
double-cut and edit again much of what he had written for the sake of a
better book. Unfortunately, he probably came under the pressure of
satisfying a publishers ideals (certain number of pages, etc). As
someone who has reviewed more than one book, IMO, I think I could have
helped make this one better. The publisher may have figured the
difference wouldn't sell any more copies... I guess that's part of
publication in the 21st century. By most measures, the book was darn
successful! You, or even I, could probably take the word "focus" from
your previous post, and embellish around it to a very insightful new
chapter, more interesting than some extant in the book!
Bill
Larry Jaques wrote:
> If it ain't thunk, rethunk, double-rethunk, tossed around, batted back
> and forth, laid up, drawn out, and hammered into place at least
> 'lebenty seven times, Bill wasn't there. He's a glue and brad and
> belt and suspenders and chain and tape and string kind of guy. ;)
I wondered once what folks thought of me here. Now I have the answer,
and I could not have guessed. I'm glad you included "hammered", because
I am known for hammering things down real good so they don't get away! lol
Larry Jaques wrote:
> But I got hooked on Griffin when a friend recommended the President's
> Agent books. They were so good, I started the Corps series. I'll
> probably continue on with the Badge of Honor series, too. Our library
> has only the books on tape for the Brotherhood of War series. This guy
> has written over forty books. I finished the entire Louis L'Amour set
> a few months ago, along with some McMurtry and Elmer Kelton.
That Griffin guy must write dern good!
Come on now, is military fiction really better than a "Rocky" movie? ;)
>
> With no television to infect me, I get more projects done and read
> lots of books for fun. I have an entire 3x7' bookshelf as an inbox for
> gardening, DIY, sci-fi, western, military fiction, woodworking, and
> metalworking books. Slowly but surely...
I enjoy trying to keep up with my inbox too. Aren't you working on your
musicianship too? We have been discussing the idea of dropping Comcast
cable-tv service in our household (when our introductory "triple-play
discount" runs out soon). That doesn't mean that we'd be television-free
though. I just recently started exploring my options.
I could get by well-enough with MSNBC and PBS. Throw in a local network
for weather and JJ, and everyone is basically happy. I'll see if you
can guess what JJ stands for.
Bill
>
> --
> If we attend continually and promptly to the little that
> we can do, we shall ere long be surprised to find how
> little remains that we cannot do. -- Samuel Butler
J. Clarke wrote:
We have been discussing the idea of dropping Comcast
>> cable-tv service in our household (when our introductory "triple-play
>> discount" runs out soon). That doesn't mean that we'd be television-free
>> though. I just recently started exploring my options.
>> I could get by well-enough with MSNBC and PBS. Throw in a local network
>> for weather and JJ, and everyone is basically happy. I'll see if you
>> can guess what JJ stands for.
>
> I have no idea what "JJ" is but for weather there are several web sites
> that do as good a job on local forecasts as your average TV weatherman.
> "Weather Underground" is one--<http://www.wunderground.com/>.
>
> For entertainment programming, between Hulu and the various networks'
> Web sites you can see most shows without paying for them, but you will
> have to sit through ads.
Thanks, it looks like Weather Underground will meet all of my weather
info needs, and then some. As Comcast has been raises my rates, with
predictable regularity, it will give me some satisfaction to "downgrade
my service". That is a phrase they repeated to me over and over the last
time I asked them to remove a "feature" I didn't use. I muse that they
changed the name of their service from "Comcast" to "Xfinity" because
the former one had too much brand recognition!--or maybe their new goal
is to raise their prices to Xfinity! ; ) For me, and probably lots of
folks here, The WoodWright Shop is near the top of my entertainment
programming--and the mention of this ensures that my post contains ww
content!
Bill
Robert Bonomi wrote:
>> BTW, here's a good example of a "bad joke" I read the other day:
>>
>> These two muffins were in the oven. One muffin said, "Gosh, it's hot in
>> here!" The other muffin went "Eeeek!!!, A talking muffin!"
>>
>> Dont' tell anyone you heard it from me--I'll deny it.
>
> *NOBODY* with even half a bran would repeat that story.
>
Robert,
I prefaced by saying it was a "bad joke". I am unable to take credit for
it. I'm glad you enjoyed it for what it was! I'll try to make it up to
you... Here's another joke for your consideration:
There was a family of 3 moles living underground, as they do, sort of
reminiscent of "The 3 Bears". The papa mole went to the top of their
hole, and said "Emmm, I smell pancakes!" The momma mole went up their
too and "Yeah, I smell pancakes too." The baby mole trying to squeeze
through to get a whiff, cried instead "All I can smell is molasses!"
(think about it)
Bill
Robert Bonomi wrote:
>> BTW, here's a good example of a "bad joke" I read the other day:
>>
>> These two muffins were in the oven. One muffin said, "Gosh, it's hot in
>> here!" The other muffin went "Eeeek!!!, A talking muffin!"
>>
>> Dont' tell anyone you heard it from me--I'll deny it.
>
> *NOBODY* with even half a bran would repeat that story.
>
Hey, I FINALLY understand your comment! GEEZE! : )
Bill
Swingman wrote:
> On 5/21/2011 3:09 AM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
>
>> In article<[email protected]>, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> Dont' tell anyone you heard it from me--I'll deny it.
>>
>> *NOBODY* with even half a bran would repeat that story.
>
> Orange you glad you didn't have to?
As I recall, there Were two muffins in the story!
Who needs talking muffin, doh?
On Wed, 11 May 2011 16:34:39 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>> By the way, what Mike M. termed the "DP Baseboard of my dreams" this
>>> past winter may finally be constructed in the next few days.
>>
>> Don't be surprised if you get as much flak as I did with my bow saur
>> project in the last century. Har!
>
>Larry,
>
>The reputation of your bow saur is renown (had to consult my the-saurus
>there...)! Have you published a magazine article about it, or a photo
>or video somewhere?
Nah. It lives in infamy in Wreck memories everywhere(?), as well as
Google's lobotomized DejaVu history files.
--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert
On Thu, 12 May 2011 00:12:52 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>Well, now I have 3 fixtures and new bulbs like Leon has, I think (GE,
>32w, 5000K, 2800 Lumens). So I'm going to assemble one of the biggest
>sawhorsies you ever saw, using "old-style sawhorse hinges and
>full-length tubafours spanned by an 8' tubafour. We (I) will find out,
>whether 3 fixtures in the span of 8 feet produces "too much" light or
>not!!! : ) Better to find out now, than after the fixtures are screwed
>down. Larry recommended an experiment of this sort back when there was
>snow on the ground but it's hard for me to keep up with him. ; ) I hope
>he's got his cantilevered-roof project completed by now...
HUH? The last "roof" I did was the PT and steel roofing over my 8x12'
patio.
>In a startlingly-related domestic item, today my wife brought home some
>sort of laserbeam shooter to help put up drapes. I thought
>(*click*)--that's just what I need to use to help get my fixtures lined
>up (in rows and columns) like "ducks in a row"! I had been planning to
>stretch some twine I have. Question: Are there any techniques that go
>along with this sort of technology to insure right angles? I expect
If she didn't get you a Straitline Intersect (or equiv) have her go do
the right thing. If you want to shoot perpendicular lines, you need a
2-line laser. http://goo.gl/DDsI2 or 5-line? http://goo.gl/Bsdox
The Bill, a 42-line laser, is in the works. Patience, please.
>eye-balling it will give me decent results. I thought to put the 3
>fixtures across the middle of the ceiling first, and then put 3 more on
>each side of them (making a 3 by 3 grid). Larry will probably say I've
>over-thought it, but I think my approach will produce better results
>than if I just worked from one row to the next.
If it ain't thunk, rethunk, double-rethunk, tossed around, batted back
and forth, laid up, drawn out, and hammered into place at least
'lebenty seven times, Bill wasn't there. He's a glue and brad and
belt and suspenders and chain and tape and string kind of guy. ;)
But he does nice work.
>It seemed to go from 50 degrees to 85 degree very quickly in my locale
>(IN). Plenty warm enough for joint compound to set now! : )
>
>The remarkable phenomenon to me, that I've already experienced a few
>times in the last few days, and I sort of forgot about since last
>summer, is how once I get started on the work--say even by just moving
>stuff around, something else kicks in and takes over and it doesn't seem
>as much like work.
That's called "focus". It's what's called A Good Thing(tm).
>I was thinking about this while driving today. Surely influenced by my
>recent reading of the book "Shop Class as Soulcraft" (Matthew Crawford).
>The phenomenon may have something to do with the personal process of
>changing physical stuff. Jokingly I thought (yeah, I tell jokes to
>myself...), even if you miss the nail and hit your finger with the
>hammer, it may be more satisfying than if you never had a chance to
>swing the hammer. In earlier years, I earned several blood
>blisters...lol..none lately. Surely, I just cursed myself... : )
I'll have to start that again some day soon. You really have to pay
attention to him to "get it".
--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Wed, 11 May 2011 00:57:29 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>My "maximal plan" would have 22 T8 bulbs (11 4' fixtures), in my 20' by
Let's see, 22 x 2,700 lumens = 59,400 lumens. That's the equivalent of
almost SEVENTY ONE 60W bulbs. Now do you see why that's absolute
overkill to the Nth degree? I still think that you'd have plenty of
light with 4 fixtures in addition to the two which are already up
there, and adding spot illumination where necessary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is only 6 more tubes than in my shop of similar size and that certainly
is not nay where near over kill, speaking from experience.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Power used by 11 fixtures (bulbs + ballasts) would be about a
horsepower and a half, 1100W all the time you're in the shop.
Even fluor can get expensive to run if there's too much of it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BS! 22 bulbs only uses 704 watts. At 10 cents per kilowatt hour that is
about 7 cents per hour or 56 cents per 8 hour day.
On Wed, 11 May 2011 16:19:28 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>>"Josepi" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>Sorry, I was trying to give you a helping hand hoping you may learn in the
>>right direction.
>
>>Since you still demonstrate ignorance , of this difference, in bulb
>>construction, I will leave you with it.
>
>
>Jeez, I am probably one of the few left that has not yet plonked you. And
>then you BS me with non experience as opposed to my experience.
>
>I certainly hope you have nothing that might benefit me in the future as
>I'll never see it.
Let's see: 1 possible gem vs. 10,000 certain bullshits, offenses,
lies, trolls, and twists? That's -not- a hard decision.
--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert
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"Josepi" wrote in message news:[email protected]...=20
Learn the difference between "Lumens" and "Lux" and your understanding =
of=20
these matters will likely be better.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Perhaps you should do the research yourself, I have and am happy with =
the results
We certainly do not know how much light is being reflected off the walls =
and objects in the room so the Lux measurement is a moot point. Since =
we are comparing what we do know, lumens and watts, that is the only =
measurement that one can use in determining how much light to expect =
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<DIV>"Josepi" wrote in message =
news:[email protected]... </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Learn the difference between "Lumens" and "Lux" and your =
understanding of=20
</DIV>
<DIV>these matters will likely be better.</DIV>
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<DIV>Perhaps you should do the research yourself, I have and am happy =
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walls=20
and objects in the room so the Lux measurement is a moot point. =
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measurement=20
that one can use in determining how much light to expect from a =
particular lamp.=20
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On Fri, 13 May 2011 06:51:26 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> If it ain't thunk, rethunk, double-rethunk, tossed around, batted back
>> and forth, laid up, drawn out, and hammered into place at least
>> 'lebenty seven times, Bill wasn't there. He's a glue and brad and
>> belt and suspenders and chain and tape and string kind of guy. ;)
>
>I wondered once what folks thought of me here. Now I have the answer,
>and I could not have guessed. I'm glad you included "hammered", because
>I am known for hammering things down real good so they don't get away! lol
We gotcher number, boy. ;)
--
If we attend continually and promptly to the little that
we can do, we shall ere long be surprised to find how
little remains that we cannot do. -- Samuel Butler
"Bill" wrote in Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens,
CRI-90.
When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
which is why I passed them up while I was there.
I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:
In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
about this are of course welcome too!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I seriously doubt that the difference in Lumens is anywhere near the
difference as the specs would make you believe.
The wattage is what tells the tale. Both are the same wattage. I doubt you
could tell the difference looking at them side by side.
You know how Sears power tools and such say they are 5 HP and use 110V and
draw 13 amps, while other tools are 2 HP at the same voltage and amps? It
is all in how you measure it.
You want to get some really big time light? Go with an 8 foot high output
fixture. Wow!
-- Jim in NC
On Fri, 13 May 2011 01:05:25 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>
>>>Larry recommended an experiment of that sort back when there was
>>> snow on the ground but it's hard for me to keep up with him. ; ) I hope
>>> he's got his cantilevered-roof project completed by now...
>>
>> HUH? The last "roof" I did was the PT and steel roofing over my 8x12'
>> patio.
>
>Yep, that's the project I meant. Has that project been signed-off on yet?
Oh, yeah, months ago. I had a couple days without rain and gat 'er
dun.
>>> In a startlingly-related domestic item, today my wife brought home some
>>> sort of laserbeam shooter to help put up drapes. I thought
>>> (*click*)--that's just what I need to use to help get my fixtures lined
>>> up (in rows and columns) like "ducks in a row"! I had been planning to
>>> stretch some twine I have. Question: Are there any techniques that go
>>> along with this sort of technology to insure right angles? I expect
>>
>> If she didn't get you a Straitline Intersect (or equiv) have her go do
>> the right thing. If you want to shoot perpendicular lines, you need a
>> 2-line laser. http://goo.gl/DDsI2 or 5-line? http://goo.gl/Bsdox
>
>
>I think I'll have to get by with one laser and a framing square--or like
>Leon said, measuring from a wall. I don't trust my walls as much as I do
>a laser though. Unfortunately, my mom gave away my dad's transit (it
>had no laser)..lol, I have his slide rule! ;)
I want pictures if you decide to try the slipstick method. Color pics!
>> If it ain't thunk, rethunk, double-rethunk, tossed around, batted back
>> and forth, laid up, drawn out, and hammered into place at least
>> 'lebenty seven times, Bill wasn't there. He's a glue and brad and
>> belt and suspenders and chain and tape and string kind of guy. ;)
>> But he does nice work.
>
>LOL...Gosh, can I put you down as a reference? I believe from
>indirectly-related experience that design and development is a
>"circular" process (not that many contractors would probably care to
>admit it). James Krenov probably used a spherical process! ;) I'm
>pleased that you are willing to give me credit for doing "nice work"
>even though I haven't provided you with many samples. My neighbor, a
You're right. I take it back. <snort>
>plumber, told me his reputation is on the line on every piece of work he
>does. As one of my harshest critics, I think LH is even tougher! :)
>Who ya gonna call? --the guy who just hammers it up there (he,
>coincidentally, used to live where I do now), or the guys who shows you
>a few SketchUp models first (Swingman and Leon)? : ) You may have heard
>the analogy that begins, "Quality is like buying oats, if you want nice
>clean, fresh oats...".
I first heard that in the mid '70s when I was a QA inspector.
>> I'll have to start that [Shop Class as Soulcraft] again some day soon. You really have to pay
>> attention to him to "get it".
>
>IMO, Those parts are the best parts of the book, in particular where he
I got a dozen pages in and found my mind wandering so I put it back on
the shelf. When I'm done with W.E.B. Griffin's _The Corps_ tomes, I
may pick it back up. (I have 3.5 to go.)
>has included thoughtful excerpts from the works of other scholars. I
>thought some of the middle chapters contained an awful lot of "padding",
>but I think the book began and ended strong. As an academic with such
>strong credentials, I thought he should have known to cut, re-cut,
>double-cut and edit again much of what he had written for the sake of a
>better book. Unfortunately, he probably came under the pressure of
>satisfying a publishers ideals (certain number of pages, etc). As
>someone who has reviewed more than one book, IMO, I think I could have
>helped make this one better. The publisher may have figured the
>difference wouldn't sell any more copies... I guess that's part of
>publication in the 21st century. By most measures, the book was darn
>successful! You, or even I, could probably take the word "focus" from
>your previous post, and embellish around it to a very insightful new
>chapter, more interesting than some extant in the book!
I'll address that once I've read the book. Remind me, won't you?
--
If we attend continually and promptly to the little that
we can do, we shall ere long be surprised to find how
little remains that we cannot do. -- Samuel Butler
Lux tells the tale. Lumens are only part of the formulae in lighting.
Some smaller wattage bulbs put out higher Lux than others in the same
technology. There is a reason for that but since you are "happy with the
results" what are you asking here?
-------------
"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
No, lumens tell the tale. A 23W CFL bulb is both brighter and nicer
than a yellow old incan 100W bulb.
-----------
The wattage is what tells the tale. Both are the same wattage. I doubt
you
could tell the difference looking at them side by side.
"DJ Delorie" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
IMHO I think a big factor in deciding between 3000k (warm) and 5000k
(cool) or even 6500k (daylight) bulbs is the following...
Where will the stuff you're making be seen?
If you're making indoor furniture, stick with warm bulbs, because most
people use warm bulbs in their houses.
If you're making outdoor stuff, go with cool or daylight bulbs.
For office furniture, stick with warm-cool (flourescent). Etc.
The idea is, you'll be seeing the finish in your shop, the same color as
the customer will be seeing it when they bring it home.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good thoughts BUT, IMHO you want bright, day light bright. You will not
always be putting a finish on a project. You need better light for working.
Warm indoor lighting is kinda dim by comparison. If color matters you
should typically buy at a store that ofders the proper lighting for
selecting the color.
IMHO I think a big factor in deciding between 3000k (warm) and 5000k
(cool) or even 6500k (daylight) bulbs is the following...
Where will the stuff you're making be seen?
If you're making indoor furniture, stick with warm bulbs, because most
people use warm bulbs in their houses.
If you're making outdoor stuff, go with cool or daylight bulbs.
For office furniture, stick with warm-cool (flourescent). Etc.
The idea is, you'll be seeing the finish in your shop, the same color as
the customer will be seeing it when they bring it home.
On 5/21/2011 3:09 AM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Dont' tell anyone you heard it from me--I'll deny it.
>
> *NOBODY* with even half a bran would repeat that story.
Orange you glad you didn't have to?
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)