concrete slab for workshop

Naw we aren't brothers but I do have 2 younger brothers that were smart
enough to stay away from concrete. One retired from Motorola and other from
UPS.
Al
"JAW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ron;
> I agree with the Miller brothers (?) Doug and Al. I thought about doing
> my own sidewalk a couple of years ago, but decided that the finish work
> was not for me. I am now in the process of building a garage and home
> and concrete work is something I refuse to do. Do it wrong and you will
> be reminded of it for the rest of your life and you may loose the
> freindship of a good neighbor to boot. DO it right (especially
> foundations) and the rest of the job goes a lot smoother. Leave this one
> to the pros.
>
> JAW
>
>
> Ronald Murray wrote:
> > Hello
> >
> > My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for
his
> > work shop.
> > Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
> > From your own experience. Things to consider. Things to do & things not
to
> > do.
> > Maybe a How To website
> > Is it necessary to pour a footing or just pour the concrete on the
gravel
> > bed.
> > Any re-bar necessary?
> > The building is 16' X 20'
> > Thanks.
> > ron
> >
> >

No disrespect intended here, honestly trying to help, but if you have to ask
those questions you had best hire a contractor. Concentrate your efforts on
what to tell the contractor you want from him.

--
********
Bill Pounds
http://www.billpounds.com


"Ronald Murray" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello
>
> My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for
his
> work shop.
> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
> From your own experience. Things to consider. Things to do & things not to
> do.
> Maybe a How To website
> Is it necessary to pour a footing or just pour the concrete on the gravel
> bed.
> Any re-bar necessary?
> The building is 16' X 20'
> Thanks.
> ron
>
>

16x20 should be poured in 2 sections with an expansion joint in the middle to
minimize cracking. Put 6x6 #6 or #8 wire in it and be sure to pull the wire up
into the slab. Even if you use "chairs" it can still sag but once pulled up
into the concrete it will stay put. Pros will usually snap tie #3 rebar to the
wire, just to keep it flat.
Generally you will want to use a "bell footer" where the edges are 4-8" deeper
than the slab. Run some rebar around that perimeter. Two #4 or #5 (1/2" or
5/8") will usually do. Get an "acorn" clamp, connect to the rebar and stub up
10' or so of #4 solid copper wire at the point where your electric will enter.
That will be your "Ufer" grounding electrode. This not only provides a good
connection to earth, it also creates a good ground plane in your shop. When
you place the plastic sheet under the slab do not put it under the deeper
footer part. The plastic is to slow the curing of the slab. After it sets (hard
to the touch) cover the top with plastic and wet it down by spraying water
under the plastic. Keep the slab covered and wet for at least a week. You don't
want concrete to "dry" you need it to stay wet and "cure". This allows the
small bonds between the cement and the aggregate to continue to form. This
really goes on for a month or more if it stays wet but a week is usually enough
to prevent surface spalling and mitigate the tendency to crack. If you are in
no hurry to build, longer is always better.
If you are building to the southern building code you will also want hurricane
straps embedded in the slab to tie your walls to, for you folks in the great
white north you can probably disregard this.

This is also the time to think about things like water lines and electric
raceways.
It is legal to run electrical type ENT "smurf tube" (the blue flex stuff) in a
slab. That is cheap insurance for ideas you might have later. I would be pretty
generous with it.
For plumbing we use CPVC here but YMMV.
The plumbing should be underground but the smurf tube can be on the ground,
under the 6x6 wire.

I BUILD A 30 X 40 POLE BARN IF YOUR GOING THAT WAY BEST TO SET POST SPEAD
GRAVEL AND THEN POUR CONCRETE USE AT LEAST 4000 LB OR STRONGER WITH FIBERGLASS
BE SURE NOT TO BROOM IT WILL PULL THE FIBERGLASS UP AND YOU WILL HAVE A MESS
BEST TO FINISH OUT

RWOODS

Did my own a few years ago 16 X 24. Excavated about 3in into the ground and
backfilled it with sand, rented a tamper and smoothed and compacted it.
Laid out slab forms along the perimeter with 2X6's and laid it directly on
to of the ground so outside edges would be 5.5in thick. Pegged the forms on
the outside every 3 feet. Used a level and some borrowed survey equipment
to get the form extremely level. Backfilled inside the form 16 inches
inside the forms with compacted sand to a height 2.5in higher than the
bottom of the form to create a footing effect around the perimeter leaving
the major portion of the slab 3in thick. Drove pegs into the sand spaced
8ft apart inside the forms and marked them at a height of 3inches above the
sand with permanent marker. Got alot of 4X8 sheets of 6X6 wire reinforcing
mesh and laid this inside the form overlapping each shhet by 6inches. Ran
the cement starting at the farthest corner from the cement truck. Ran the
cement along the forms from the corner each way for about 8 feet and then
filled arround the closest peg to that corner up to the 3 inch mark. Filled
in between the peg and the corner and used a screed (10ft 2X4 with handles
on it) to level it from the corner to the mark on the peg. Repeated this
around the forms ad to all pegs. Got a bull float to settle and smooth the
concrete
somewhat. Wait until the concrete is firm to the touch and barely leaves an
indentation when applying pressure with the fingers. Get a Cement finisher
with a good set of cutting blades and run over the surface to smoot out the
surface...................................................................GE
T A CONTRACTOR.........you'll never regret it.

Bert
Newfoundland

Ronald Murray wrote:

> Hello
>
> My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for his
> work shop.
> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
> From your own experience. Things to consider. Things to do & things not to
> do.
> Maybe a How To website
> Is it necessary to pour a footing or just pour the concrete on the gravel
> bed.
> Any re-bar necessary?
> The building is 16' X 20'
> Thanks.
> ron

Been there. Done that. For a 20' X 24' shop.

1. I suggest footings and re-bar in the perimeter footings.
2. Consider having termite protection applied just before the concrete is poured.
3. Embed J bolts into the wet concrete to provide attachments for the tubah base of
the walls.

Hoyt W.

I concur with many of the above comments with one exception. Forms and
prework. The actual pour and finish, pay somebody. You can research the
requirements based on your locale for footing requirements based on frost
line. A good place to start is the local building inspector or engineering
department of local community for building permits.

BUT if your clueless of the requirements and process, pay for it all!

Ronald Murray wrote:

> Hello
>
> My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for his
> work shop.
> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
> From your own experience. Things to consider. Things to do & things not to
> do.
> Maybe a How To website
> Is it necessary to pour a footing or just pour the concrete on the gravel
> bed.
> Any re-bar necessary?
> The building is 16' X 20'
> Thanks.
> ron

Ronald Murray <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello

> My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for his
> work shop.
> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
> From your own experience. Things to consider. Things to do & things not to
> do.
> Maybe a How To website
> Is it necessary to pour a footing or just pour the concrete on the gravel
> bed.
> Any re-bar necessary?
> The building is 16' X 20'
> Thanks.
> ron


Check with your local building permit office for the requirements. When I
built my shop last year, I found that almost all structures required a
certified concrete plan which basically meant hiring someone to do it since
they will have a licensed engineer on staff. I ended up going with a
pole-barn structure for a variety of reasons but one main one was that they
were except from the concrete plan rule. I still ended up hiring out all
the work but not having to pay for the plan did save me quite a bit of
money (about $500).

Lance

Just ran this one by my resident neurosurgeon. The opinion was "brain
surgery is easier than plumbing and much easier than concrete work.";-)


RB

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Ronald Murray" writes:
>
>>My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for
>
> his
>
>>work shop.
>>Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
>
> <snip>
>
> Many years ago, I tackled this same task.
>
> Got as far as building forms and getting pricing on concrete and rental
> equipment such as a powered buggy to get the concrete from the curb to the
> back yard.
>
> There was a concrete contractor in the neighborhood who reluctantly agreed
> to look at the job site and give me a price.
>
> Needless to say, he got the job.
>
> Stayed home and watched the day the contractor did the work.
>
> Smartest decision I ever made was not to lay concrete.
>
> After watching the job, I could have written a book about what I didn't know
> about laying concrete.
>
> I'll try most anything, but two (2) things I won't do:
>
> 1) Brain Surgery.
> 2) Lay concrete.
>
> HTH
>
>

Watch someone good with that "upside down helicopter." Then go rent one
and try it yourself. You'll then discover why you're not selling
paintings at the same price as Picasso, Renoir, Matisse, etc.

There is a difference between having the price of a brush and being a
"painter."

If I wasn't so busy I'd like to come and "watch."

RB

Ronald Murray wrote:
> Hello Everyone
>
> Thank-you very much for your honest opinions. We have not decided which way
> to go yet. He doesn't have the permit yet either. We will get a few prices
> from contractors to build & place the concrete , then decide from there.
> Concrete is about $84 a cubic yd plus 15% tax. We figure around 6 yds to
> pour a 6 inch thick slab. Plus we will need a pumper truck($200-300) & rent
> one of those upside down helicopters to finish the concrete to a nice smooth
> finish. That's Canadian dollars.
> I called one concrete supplier for a price. To me cement & concrete are
> kinda interchangeable words.When I asked for a price on cement , he advised
> me that they don't sell cement. So I said sorry wrong number. I call the
> number again out of the yellow pages. Same guy answers. Can you give me a
> price on cement. Same response. We don't sell cement , we sell concrete. So
> I won't say where I told him to put his concrete. I'm sure he knew what I
> was looking for. NEXT.
> ron
> PS We are still leaning towards doing it ourselves. I'll keep you posted.
>
>

"Ronald Murray" writes:
> My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for
his
> work shop.
> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
<snip>

Many years ago, I tackled this same task.

Got as far as building forms and getting pricing on concrete and rental
equipment such as a powered buggy to get the concrete from the curb to the
back yard.

There was a concrete contractor in the neighborhood who reluctantly agreed
to look at the job site and give me a price.

Needless to say, he got the job.

Stayed home and watched the day the contractor did the work.

Smartest decision I ever made was not to lay concrete.

After watching the job, I could have written a book about what I didn't know
about laying concrete.

I'll try most anything, but two (2) things I won't do:

1) Brain Surgery.
2) Lay concrete.

HTH


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures

On 28 Apr 2004 07:41:38 -0700, [email protected] (Bill) wrote:

>...and the results were far superior >to what I could have
>accomplished on my first try - wood is very forgiving - concrete is not!

There's a huge amount of good advice in that. When we learn
woodworking (and a whole lot of other trades and crafts) we have an
opportunity to practice and throw away what didn't work out. Every
concrete pour is a finished job. There are no practice areas for
finishing concrete. Your very first one has to be good enough for what
it's intended.

Apprentice concrete finishers at least start out with a journeyman
showing him what to do (and what not to do). We DIYers don't have that
luxury. I've learned to do concrete finishing (which is why I know
what I'm talking about in that first paragraph), but I don't want to
pour and finish much more than a 4'x4' pad, and that's with some help
mixing.

- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Where to start!

Lots of great info already, and perhaps you're beginning to see how much
knowledge is needed. Well guess what, it's not just knowledge, but skill as
well.

16X20 is a large project to do as a first timer. Breaking it into to two
16X10's is an execellent suggestion. Piece of cake if you're a finisher by
trade, but a sizeable job for a newbie.

So far no one has mentioned the fact that you will need to screed the
concrete, use a jitterbug to press the aggregate down, float the surface,
edge the corners, joint it, and smooth it out. Oh yeah, all the while
fighting to keep the surface flat and level.

Around my neck of the woods (CA,) I wouldn't consider anything less than
joints 6' on center. Don't let anybody fool you. Concrete is hard and it
will eventually crack. Better to direct those cracks into a joint than have
them go where ever they want to go.

Even with the wire mesh, I would consider #3 rebar or better every 30" oc in
a grid pattern. That will keep any cracks from lifting, and rebar is just
not that expensive.

I'm a farm boy who has poured concrete at least 30 times over the last
fifteen years. I'm now at a point where I could do the job you've described
with another person of the my caliber.

My tenth job (by myself) was a 10 x 12 shed poured in much the same way as
described below. It was a hot day, and the concrete ran about two cu.ft.
short. I busted my butt on that job -- mixing the needed 2 feet by hand
when I should have been screeding and floating. By the time I finished
mixing and pouring, the concrete was firming up, and there was very little I
could do to salvage the project. It is ugly, and if it hadn't been a shed,
I would have ripped it out.

The best suggestion I can give you is to try a small sidewalk first. For
once thing, you don't have to finish on knee boards, and if you don't like
it, it's easier to rip out.

"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> 16x20 should be poured in 2 sections with an expansion joint in the middle
to
> minimize cracking. Put 6x6 #6 or #8 wire in it and be sure to pull the
wire up
> into the slab. Even if you use "chairs" it can still sag but once pulled
up
> into the concrete it will stay put. Pros will usually snap tie #3 rebar to
the
> wire, just to keep it flat.
> Generally you will want to use a "bell footer" where the edges are 4-8"
deeper
> than the slab. Run some rebar around that perimeter. Two #4 or #5 (1/2" or
> 5/8") will usually do. Get an "acorn" clamp, connect to the rebar and stub
up
> 10' or so of #4 solid copper wire at the point where your electric will
enter.
> That will be your "Ufer" grounding electrode. This not only provides a
good
> connection to earth, it also creates a good ground plane in your shop.
When
> you place the plastic sheet under the slab do not put it under the deeper
> footer part. The plastic is to slow the curing of the slab. After it sets
(hard
> to the touch) cover the top with plastic and wet it down by spraying water
> under the plastic. Keep the slab covered and wet for at least a week. You
don't
> want concrete to "dry" you need it to stay wet and "cure". This allows the
> small bonds between the cement and the aggregate to continue to form. This
> really goes on for a month or more if it stays wet but a week is usually
enough
> to prevent surface spalling and mitigate the tendency to crack. If you are
in
> no hurry to build, longer is always better.
> If you are building to the southern building code you will also want
hurricane
> straps embedded in the slab to tie your walls to, for you folks in the
great
> white north you can probably disregard this.
>
> This is also the time to think about things like water lines and electric
> raceways.
> It is legal to run electrical type ENT "smurf tube" (the blue flex stuff)
in a
> slab. That is cheap insurance for ideas you might have later. I would be
pretty
> generous with it.
> For plumbing we use CPVC here but YMMV.
> The plumbing should be underground but the smurf tube can be on the
ground,
> under the 6x6 wire.

Wow, I can't help observing at this point how utterly rare it is to
see this kind of unanimity in response to a question on the wreck.
Not a single person, in a group that is sometimes absurdly optimistic
about our ability (yes I include myself) to do ANYTHING around a
house, thinks this would be a good idea. Of course now that I've said
it someone will step in to say, "No problem at all, maybe go to the
library and take out a book on it, it ain't rocket science..."
Personally this would scare the bejesus out of me. At least when I
screw up a woodworking project I have some hope of undoing the thing,
or REdoing it, or at least being able to get RID of it.... A 16 x 20
concrete slab...



JAW <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Ron;
> I agree with the Miller brothers (?) Doug and Al. I thought about doing
> my own sidewalk a couple of years ago, but decided that the finish work
> was not for me. I am now in the process of building a garage and home
> and concrete work is something I refuse to do. Do it wrong and you will
> be reminded of it for the rest of your life and you may loose the
> freindship of a good neighbor to boot. DO it right (especially
> foundations) and the rest of the job goes a lot smoother. Leave this one
> to the pros.
>
> JAW
>
>
> Ronald Murray wrote:
> > Hello
> >
> > My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for his
> > work shop.
> > Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
> > From your own experience. Things to consider. Things to do & things not to
> > do.
> > Maybe a How To website
> > Is it necessary to pour a footing or just pour the concrete on the gravel
> > bed.
> > Any re-bar necessary?
> > The building is 16' X 20'
> > Thanks.
> > ron
> >
> >

Ron;
I agree with the Miller brothers (?) Doug and Al. I thought about doing
my own sidewalk a couple of years ago, but decided that the finish work
was not for me. I am now in the process of building a garage and home
and concrete work is something I refuse to do. Do it wrong and you will
be reminded of it for the rest of your life and you may loose the
freindship of a good neighbor to boot. DO it right (especially
foundations) and the rest of the job goes a lot smoother. Leave this one
to the pros.

JAW


Ronald Murray wrote:
> Hello
>
> My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for his
> work shop.
> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
> From your own experience. Things to consider. Things to do & things not to
> do.
> Maybe a How To website
> Is it necessary to pour a footing or just pour the concrete on the gravel
> bed.
> Any re-bar necessary?
> The building is 16' X 20'
> Thanks.
> ron
>
>

"Ronald Murray" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Hello
>
> My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for his
> work shop.
> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
> From your own experience. Things to consider. Things to do & things not to
> do.
> Maybe a How To website
> Is it necessary to pour a footing or just pour the concrete on the gravel
> bed.
> Any re-bar necessary?
> The building is 16' X 20'
> Thanks.
> ron

Given the pretty basic level of the questions posed, I'd say see a
professional. Ask them what of the grunt work you can do and let them
do the pour/finish. For example, getting a really dead flat gravel
bed can save you a bunch of concrete ($$$) which can defray part of
the cost of getting someone to handle the pour. Gravel can be worked
at a leisurely pace.

There's an old saw: "You can work the concrete or the concrete can
work you." Pro's do the former; newbies the latter.


good luck,

hex
-30-

After 37 years as a Concrete Contractor I have seen it all when it comes to
Do-it-Yourselfers. Have no idea how many times over the years I have been
called to fix someones mess.
This isn't just a sidewalk that can be brushed to hide the imperfections, a
shop floor must be level, very flat and smooth. You don't want your TS
(etc) rocking on an uneven floor. The smoother the better, should be like
glass, making cleanup much easier.
The best advice you got here was from Doug and Lew. Hire a licenced, bonded
contractor. Get bids from at least 3 and check out thier work references.
Low bid is not always the best choice if you want a perfect job.
When the slab is finished be sure they spray on a good coat of Sealing
Curing Compound, which is better then covering with plastic sheeting. If
you are in hot climate, keep it watered down for several days.

My 2 cents,
Al in WA

"Ronald Murray" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello
>
> My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for
his
> work shop.
> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
> From your own experience. Things to consider. Things to do & things not to
> do.
> Maybe a How To website
> Is it necessary to pour a footing or just pour the concrete on the gravel
> bed.
> Any re-bar necessary?
> The building is 16' X 20'
> Thanks.
> ron
>
>

Does everyone else here do this? On the rare occasions where I have to hire
some help, I measure how much it cost compared to wood or tools. "Why, I
could have bought two blurfls for what that cost!".

todd

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi,
> I went through this same dilemma last year after we bought are house.
> I considered doing the work myself (to save money, "I know what I'm
> doing", etc.) but after careful thought, as well as some wise comments
> form individuals in this group, I hired the job out. Best decision I
> ever made. While I cringed at signing the check, it was a joy to watch
> the whole process from the comfort of my front porch, and to plan for
> the part of the project I know best - working with wood. While I
> usually hate the thought of watching someone else do what I "think" I
> can do better, and for less, I felt very good about my decision.
> Sometimes saving a few bucks just doesn't make sense - a hard lesson
> to swallow for a person that would rather die than to allow a repair
> person into his home. Yes, I could have done 75% of what the concrete
> contractor did (build forms, dig footings, etc.), but he and his crew
> got it right the first time and far more quickly than me and my wife
> could. The process went much faster and the results were far superior
> to what I could have accomplished on my first try - wood is very
> forgiving - concrete is not! Keep us posted.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
> Lance Spaulding <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Ronald Murray <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Hello
> >
> > > My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab
for his
> > > work shop.
> > > Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
> > > From your own experience. Things to consider. Things to do & things
not to
> > > do.
> > > Maybe a How To website
> > > Is it necessary to pour a footing or just pour the concrete on the
gravel
> > > bed.
> > > Any re-bar necessary?
> > > The building is 16' X 20'
> > > Thanks.
> > > ron
> >
> >
> > Check with your local building permit office for the requirements. When
I
> > built my shop last year, I found that almost all structures required a
> > certified concrete plan which basically meant hiring someone to do it
since
> > they will have a licensed engineer on staff. I ended up going with a
> > pole-barn structure for a variety of reasons but one main one was that
they
> > were except from the concrete plan rule. I still ended up hiring out
all
> > the work but not having to pay for the plan did save me quite a bit of
> > money (about $500).
> >
> > Lance

"Ronald Murray" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> me that they don't sell cement. So I said sorry wrong number. I call the
> number again out of the yellow pages. Same guy answers. Can you give me a
> price on cement. Same response. We don't sell cement , we sell concrete.

He must be busy enough not to want any extra business.
Ed

RB wrote:
> Watch someone good with that "upside down helicopter." Then go rent one
> and try it yourself. You'll then discover why you're not selling
> paintings at the same price as Picasso, Renoir, Matisse, etc.
>
> There is a difference between having the price of a brush and being a
> "painter."
>
> If I wasn't so busy I'd like to come and "watch."
>
> RB
>
>
>


Learning curves can sometimes be very amusing to watch. Every time I am
tempted to rent a "monster tool" for a one off project, I take a deep
breath and think about the video clips of early aviators and the silly
attempts to fly silly machines. Normally, by the time I am thinking
about the multi wing prop plane, the one with about eight or nine wings,
imploding, I get out the phone book and begin looking for someone who
does the job for a living. :)

Tim

--
No BoomBoom for me! - [email protected]

"brad" writes:
<snip>
> Wow, I can't help observing at this point how utterly rare it is to
> see this kind of unanimity in response to a question on the wreck.
<snip>

Perhaps I can put it in a little different perspective.

Concrete, lots of it, gets very heavy, very fast.

First is an observation that is to say the least, a little crude.

Don't f**k with the truck unless you are prepared to get run over.

The other comes from my background in sailing.

A small sailboat, fully in the right of way, according to the "rules of the
road", got on the radio and asked a 1,000 ft ore boat, carrying 60,000 tons
of iron ore while making about 25 knots on one of the Great Lakes which
shall remain nameless.

Back came a one word response, TONNAGE!

Dealing with concrete is like wrestling a bear.

You keep wrestling until the bear wants to stop.

Same thing with concrete.

HTH


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures

"brad" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wow, I can't help observing at this point how utterly rare it is to
> see this kind of unanimity in response to a question on the wreck.
> Not a single person, in a group that is sometimes absurdly optimistic
> about our ability (yes I include myself) to do ANYTHING around a
> house, thinks this would be a good idea. Of course now that I've said
> it someone will step in to say, "No problem at all, maybe go to the
> library and take out a book on it, it ain't rocket science..."

I'll take the middle road.

It really is not that hard if you know what to do, have the proper tools,
have a plan, and have some help. I poured a 16 x 32 patio, but I did it in
two pours. I had help of someone with experience. It has some pitch, but
the finish is not the same as I would want in a shop.

My advice:
If neither of you has done this before, get the help of someone that had
done it. I assume you will be using reddi-mix as you'd have to be nuts to
mix that much concrete even with a rented mixer. You will need about 4
yards. You must also have a plan for the excess.

There is no second chance if you have a problem. It is not just the cost of
wasted material if you screw up, it is th e cost of removal. At least one
person must have experience and take charge of the operation.
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

I've built the forms and prepped for pouring several slabs myself, but would
never attempt finishing concrete. You screw up and it's permanent. Hire a
professional; he's worth it. I'd recommend reading a book before you start,
but I would rebar and cut in control joints.
Ron

"Ronald Murray" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello
>
> My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for
his
> work shop.
> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
> From your own experience. Things to consider. Things to do & things not to
> do.
> Maybe a How To website
> Is it necessary to pour a footing or just pour the concrete on the gravel
> bed.
> Any re-bar necessary?
> The building is 16' X 20'
> Thanks.
> ron
>
>

<snip>

Hmmm, are you saying you wouldn't lay concrete?!?

"Salthead"

> So far no one has mentioned the fact that you will need to screed the
> concrete, use a jitterbug to press the aggregate down, float the surface,
> edge the corners, joint it, and smooth it out. Oh yeah, all the while
> fighting to keep the surface flat and level.

Yes - and while you are busy learning to do all this stuff for the first
time ever, the concrete will be getting very hard and completely
unreworkable.


- Nate

Well. from the sound of it I was the victim of dumb luck.
when I decided I needed a bigger shed/shop than the 12x18 dutch barn style
I built on cinder block piers. Bought a set of plans and followed the
recommendations for a monolithic slab. 10" deep at the edges for 4" in
then angled up at 45° to a 4" thick center. Laid out 2x6 forms, staked at
2' intervals in front of current shed. Dug the 2x6's in to level them out.
This gave me a front entrance that was too low, slight slope to bckyard,
so I ripped 2x4's and added about 1.75" to the overall thickness of the
slab. Checked level carefully with a water level. put in black 20 mil, I
think, plastic as a vapor barrier, then the 2 courses of rebar recommended
and 6x6 mesh overlapped by 6" at edges and 12" at the ends. Called BIL to
make sure he could help on th eday of the pour, he'd done this at least
once before, and scheduled the day off and claled for 7 yards of concrete.
Sat avround waiting for the early AM delivery, heated up some chile for
lunch, and the truck magically appeared. Funny how that works. Offered the
driver large glass of iced tea, sweet, and made sure he agreed I had taked
down enough of the fence between my and neighbors yard for him to back up.
guided him past water meters and he setup to pout. BIL and I sprad it
around and used a 2x to level and smooth it out. Driver pulled out a bull
float and did a semifinal smoothout then asked to use the graden hose.
Iassumed, yeah I know, he was going to cleanup. He handed me one end a d
directed me to the other side of the slab to hold one end of the hose. He
then slowly dragged the hose over the smoothed surface and pulled up a thin
even layer of water to the top. Then he rinsed off the hose and himself,
acceptd arefill of iced tea and took the check and departed.
BIL and I were surpridsed at the finish and went in to reheat and eat the
chile. Let the mis set a little bit, don't recall how long, and set in the
J bolts for the sill plate and smoothed around them. Glad that part's
covered, not as smooth as the middle.
Neighbor came home later and we were talking about the amount of concrete
he had helped with, from a home batch plant, in his teens. Noticed a crack
forming in the slab, no expansion joints, and mentioned about how they may
have used to much phosphorous in the mix. I was panicking, but he
explained what to do. Covered the slab with a layer of clear plastic and
started the oscillating sprinkler to cover the whole slab. Left it running
overnight and again the next afternoon for a few hours, maybe for the next
few days too. It's been a while. The crack closed up most of the way, I
might be able to find it now if I looked, and the slab cured slowly. Well,
as slowly as SC will let it in August, even with the plastic and
occassional watering.
Let the slab cure for a few weeks and started the shop, but that's another
story in what not to do.
Joe

Ron wrote:

> I've built the forms and prepped for pouring several slabs myself, but would
> never attempt finishing concrete. You screw up and it's permanent. Hire a
> professional; he's worth it. I'd recommend reading a book before you start,
> but I would rebar and cut in control joints.
> Ron
>
> "Ronald Murray" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Hello
>>
>>My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for
>
> his
>
>>work shop.
>>Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
>>From your own experience. Things to consider. Things to do & things not to
>>do.
>>Maybe a How To website
>>Is it necessary to pour a footing or just pour the concrete on the gravel
>>bed.
>>Any re-bar necessary?
>>The building is 16' X 20'
>>Thanks.
>>ron
>>
>>
>
>
>

Ronald Murray <[email protected]> wrote:

> My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for his
> work shop.

If you want to keep your neighbor as a friend, you might want
to talk him into a professional on this. Maybe help out with
the prep work and setting up forms, etc. Find a concrete guy
who will do the actual pour and finish work but let you do the
setup.

I have been reading this thread for a while, and I'm sort of
glad I didn't read it a year ago. I built a new front stoop
on my house to replace a poorly conceived older one that
was starting to fall apart. I built a semi-circular, 3 step,
stoop with brick risers and backfilled with concrete. The
outer step is about a 5' radius curve. I dug out footers
and used 1/4" OSB to form them, in steps. Then I built a
double row brick wall for each step. After all that was
done I backfilled the interior with rubble and dirt, packed
it down. Then put in a crosshatched rebar mesh and poured
on top of that. A couple friends helped me. We backfilled
the gaps behind the first to risers with concrete, and
the main top we screeded off with a slight pitch away from
the house. My friends had worked as mansonry helpers years
ago in their youth, but other than that we were flying blind.
Worked out pretty well, considering. So far, no cracks or
settling. Had I read this thread a year ago I might have
paid someone else to do it. Thinking back on it, I might
pay someone else to do it if I had to do over.

The fun part was building, essentially, 3 curved brick walls.
It wasn't as hard as I had expected.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 19:44:45 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Ronald Murray" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> me that they don't sell cement. So I said sorry wrong number. I call the
>> number again out of the yellow pages. Same guy answers. Can you give me a
>> price on cement. Same response. We don't sell cement , we sell concrete.
>
> He must be busy enough not to want any extra business.

Flatwork guys around here (Wisconsin) are notoriously hard to deal
with, because they're so damn busy. But, having seen how much work
it is, and how well they do it, it's worth paying for it to be done.

I did nearly everything involved in building my house; foundation,
framing, systems, and even the drywall. But, flatwork I hired out on
the theory that it's more work than 3 people can handle, _and_ it's
a one-time shot. Even though the flatwork guy badly delayed my project
by not showing up as promised, repeatedly, I wouldn't want to tackle
it myself.

>
. We figure around 6 yds to pour a 6 inch thick slab.

By my quick math, a 16'x 20' x 6" slab is exactly 6 yds. if you only
order six, be prepared to come up short.

Hi,
I went through this same dilemma last year after we bought are house.
I considered doing the work myself (to save money, "I know what I'm
doing", etc.) but after careful thought, as well as some wise comments
form individuals in this group, I hired the job out. Best decision I
ever made. While I cringed at signing the check, it was a joy to watch
the whole process from the comfort of my front porch, and to plan for
the part of the project I know best - working with wood. While I
usually hate the thought of watching someone else do what I "think" I
can do better, and for less, I felt very good about my decision.
Sometimes saving a few bucks just doesn't make sense - a hard lesson
to swallow for a person that would rather die than to allow a repair
person into his home. Yes, I could have done 75% of what the concrete
contractor did (build forms, dig footings, etc.), but he and his crew
got it right the first time and far more quickly than me and my wife
could. The process went much faster and the results were far superior
to what I could have accomplished on my first try - wood is very
forgiving - concrete is not! Keep us posted.

Bill




Lance Spaulding <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Ronald Murray <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hello
>
> > My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for his
> > work shop.
> > Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
> > From your own experience. Things to consider. Things to do & things not to
> > do.
> > Maybe a How To website
> > Is it necessary to pour a footing or just pour the concrete on the gravel
> > bed.
> > Any re-bar necessary?
> > The building is 16' X 20'
> > Thanks.
> > ron
>
>
> Check with your local building permit office for the requirements. When I
> built my shop last year, I found that almost all structures required a
> certified concrete plan which basically meant hiring someone to do it since
> they will have a licensed engineer on staff. I ended up going with a
> pole-barn structure for a variety of reasons but one main one was that they
> were except from the concrete plan rule. I still ended up hiring out all
> the work but not having to pay for the plan did save me quite a bit of
> money (about $500).
>
> Lance

I have been a "helper" on several concrete projects. These were all
jobs without a true concrete professional. In all cases the final
product came out OK but there were moments of near panic.

In one case some of the forms started to yield. A couple last minute
braces were able to stop the problem. In another job we had a cart full
of premix that started to harden before we could offload it into
wheelbarrows. In all cases you need to be fully prepared when the
concrete arrives. When the pumper comes to the site and the concrete
truck arrives you need to have everything under control.

Even when you believe you are fully prepared it is likely that you will
tie up the delivery truck for longer than his allocated time so there
will be additional time charges. This should be one saving for the use
of a contractor for the job. He will eat any extra time for the
concrete delivery.

Dick
>

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

In this usage a cement mixer would be rather useless. It would simply
churn away at the powder. We must admit that common usage often
confuses the two.

Dick


>
> Sorry, but they're not. Cement is a product made from ground and fired
> limestone. It is the basis for several masonry products including
> mortar and concrete. Concrete is a mixture of cement, water,
> aggregate, and sand (a smaller aggregate).
>

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 12:42:42 -0300, "Ronald Murray"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Hello
>
>My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for his
>work shop.
>Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Damn, sorry, I'm busy that day.

-Dan v.

In article <[email protected]>, "Ronald Murray" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Hello
>
>My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for his
>work shop.
>Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
>From your own experience. Things to consider. Things to do & things not to
>do.

Top on the list of "things not to do" is to try to pour a 16x20 slab yourself,
unless you have previous experience working with concrete.

About eight years ago, we needed to have our front porch repaired, to the tune
of about $2500 to cut out an repour a 7x8' section that had badly cracked.

As I watched the workmen cutting out the cracked section, I said to myself "I
could do that. Why am I paying these guys twenty-five hundred bucks?"

And as I watched them break up the old concrete and dispose of it, I said to
myself "I could do that. Why am I paying these guys twenty-five hundred
bucks?"

And as I watched them build the forms, and lay in the remesh, I said to
myself "I could do that. Why am I paying these guys twenty-five hundred
bucks?"

And again, as I watched them pour the concrete into the forms and shovel it
around into all the corners, I said to myself again "I could do that. Why am
I paying these guys _twenty-five_hundred_bucks_?"

Then the head of the crew got down on his hands and knees and floated the
whole thing beautifully smooth in about ten minutes.

And I said to myself, "THAT'S why I'm paying these guys."

IMHO... if you've never floated concrete before, a 16x20 slab is NOT the place
to begin practicing. OTOH, if you have, then go for it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

"Ronald Murray" writes:

<snip>
> Can you give me a
> price on cement. Same response. We don't sell cement , we sell concrete.
So
> I won't say where I told him to put his concrete. I'm sure he knew what I
> was looking for. NEXT.

With an attitude like that, you definitely should do the job yourself.

You deserve what you will get.


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures

Hello Everyone

Thank-you very much for your honest opinions. We have not decided which way
to go yet. He doesn't have the permit yet either. We will get a few prices
from contractors to build & place the concrete , then decide from there.
Concrete is about $84 a cubic yd plus 15% tax. We figure around 6 yds to
pour a 6 inch thick slab. Plus we will need a pumper truck($200-300) & rent
one of those upside down helicopters to finish the concrete to a nice smooth
finish. That's Canadian dollars.
I called one concrete supplier for a price. To me cement & concrete are
kinda interchangeable words.When I asked for a price on cement , he advised
me that they don't sell cement. So I said sorry wrong number. I call the
number again out of the yellow pages. Same guy answers. Can you give me a
price on cement. Same response. We don't sell cement , we sell concrete. So
I won't say where I told him to put his concrete. I'm sure he knew what I
was looking for. NEXT.
ron
PS We are still leaning towards doing it ourselves. I'll keep you posted.

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 16:14:24 -0300, "Ronald Murray"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>To me cement & concrete are kinda interchangeable words.

Sorry, but they're not. Cement is a product made from ground and fired
limestone. It is the basis for several masonry products including
mortar and concrete. Concrete is a mixture of cement, water,
aggregate, and sand (a smaller aggregate).

>When I asked for a price on cement , he advised me that they don't sell cement.

He was trying to give you a lesson. Too subtly, perhaps.

>So I said sorry wrong number. I call the number again out of the yellow pages.
>Same guy answers. Can you give me a price on cement. Same response. We
>don't sell cement , we sell concrete.

Less subtle, since the first lesson didn't take.

>So I won't say where I told him to put his concrete. I'm sure he knew what I
>was looking for. NEXT.

Our teachers are under-appreciated and over-abused.

>PS We are still leaning towards doing it ourselves. I'll keep you posted.

Not knowing the difference between cement and concrete, I'd suggest
you lean toward contracting it out.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

I am a manager for a small concrete construction company. I would not
attempt to finish concrete. I even stayed at a Holiday Express.

If a contractor does your work the cost ofor the contractor will not
be as bad as you think. You might work a deal to form the floor but
don"t complain if the floor is tilted.

Also a concrete contractor can get the concrete at a lower cost than
you can.

I would definiatly have a footer (12"x12" minimum) with at least one
run of #5 rebar. If you have alot of weight on the building then two
bars of #5. Overlap the rebar at least 24". Buy corner bars for your
corners and make sure the rebar is 3-4" from the bottom of the foorer.

Make sure you have recesses at the doors either as a 3/4" lip or a
sloped recess. This will keep water from blowing under the doors.
Make sure the contractor cuts control joints within 24hr.

If you are framing the walls or installing a metal building go ahead
and install anchor bolts in the footer. We poured a slab a while back
where we took a PT 2x4 and screw it around the inside of the forms to
form a ledge. Then we drilled holes for the anchor bolts. After the
pour we removed the screws and PT boards. The walls were built using
the PT as bottom boards. When completed the walls just fit perfect on
the anchors.

Hope this helps.




On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 12:42:42 -0300, "Ronald Murray"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Hello
>
>My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for his
>work shop.
>Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
>From your own experience. Things to consider. Things to do & things not to
>do.
>Maybe a How To website
>Is it necessary to pour a footing or just pour the concrete on the gravel
>bed.
>Any re-bar necessary?
>The building is 16' X 20'
>Thanks.
>ron
>

Yep it's a pain.
The codes will eat you up, unless you are in an area that's lax or can claim
to be a farm or such. Around here, major footers are required all round,
and some inside too.
Go to your pplanning office first!
Get at least three bids before deciding.
You can do it, but the forms have to be strong, well braced, and square.
It's a bitch to be running around trying to brive stakes and install braces
while the mud is being poured.
Wilson
"Ronald Murray" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello
>
> My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for
his
> work shop.
> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
> From your own experience. Things to consider. Things to do & things not to
> do.
> Maybe a How To website
> Is it necessary to pour a footing or just pour the concrete on the gravel
> bed.
> Any re-bar necessary?
> The building is 16' X 20'
> Thanks.
> ron
>
>

brad wrote:

> Wow, I can't help observing at this point how utterly rare it is to
> see this kind of unanimity in response to a question on the wreck.
> Not a single person, in a group that is sometimes absurdly optimistic
> about our ability (yes I include myself) to do ANYTHING around a
> house, thinks this would be a good idea.



Nope.

I paid someone $750 (plus materials) to pour ~ 1400 square feet of floor, it's a
little high here, a little low there.

It's one helluva site better than I could have done, and it's better than some
commercially done floors I've walked on.

--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
(Gaz, r.moto)

After all the good advice I have noticed that we haven't heard back from
Ronald, who started this thread. What was your and your neighbors decision?
Have a professional do it right, I hope.
I've always enjoyed watching people try pouring and finishing concrete when
they didn't have a clue. I have actually got my tools out and helped them
while they stepped back and watched in amazement how easy I made it look.
Well, what can I say, 37 years of finishing concrete?

I now enjoy my wood shop, take my time and not worry about mistakes because
I have the TIME to redo my mistakes. Don't finish a project today, always
have tomorrow. Not so with concrete!

Got some gluing to do on small pieces for inlays on jewelry boxes (al la
Doug Stowe's books) so better get busy. Grandkids graduations coming up
fast. Better get busy and turn of this puter. Good luck, Ronald and
Neighbor.
Al in WA

"hex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Ronald Murray" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Hello
> >
> > My neighbor wants me to help build the forms & pour a concrete slab for
his
> > work shop.
> > Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
> > From your own experience. Things to consider. Things to do & things not
to
> > do.
> > Maybe a How To website
> > Is it necessary to pour a footing or just pour the concrete on the
gravel
> > bed.
> > Any re-bar necessary?
> > The building is 16' X 20'
> > Thanks.
> > ron