On this nice and wintry day here in NC I am yearning to go out to my
shop, er garage, and play. It is just a tad too chilly for my liking
however. I toyed with the idea of running down to the BORG to buy a
space heater. The choices seem to come down to three: electric, propane
or kerosene. And yes, I could also buy a nice wood stove but I really
don't want to have to fix the heater in one place with a stovepipe, much
less take up a permanent spot in my tiny little shop.
So - what have you used and how has it worked for you? Any thoughts on
what BTUs are necessary to make 300 sf space comfortable? The garage is
over 12' tall - a lot of space to heat up. Strictly based on
convenience I am drawn towards electric and I have the amps to spare on
the panel. There is one other little thing of importance to me - it
can't break the budget of $80-100...
Hey Rob,
I am just north of you in Raleigh. The garage is not insulated. How is
the noise factor on the rocket?? I don't have any particular need to
work in my shirtsleeves but I like the idea of 68-70 degrees. I wonder
how long it would take to get there with an electric radiant heater ...
Rob V wrote:
> Where in NC are you?
>
> Im in fuquay (just out side of raleigh)
> about 2 months ago I broke down and got a small propane rocket type heater
> from the borg.
> The Reedy Heater - 40,000 BTU one. (Dont remember the price - but it was
> under 100)
>
> I have a 3 stall garage (1 of which is my shop) all open w/ 14' ceilings.
> I made it a point when I build the house to insulate the garage and spend
> the extra $$ for a insulated garage door as well. W/ that heater I can get
> it up to a toasty 70 degrees and it stays there for a while.
> I ran it for about 1/2 hr this morning (9:30-10am) it got to about 71 and
> its at 68 right now (1pm)
> I let it run for about 45 mins to an hour before I go in then turn it off.
> The coldest I normally gets is about 50. (last week when it was in the 30s
> outside - it was 50 in there.)
> I can work out there confortable for a while - if it gets too cold I guess I
> just crank it back up again and take a break. But havent had to do that
> yet.
>
> Anyways - Id recommend that one.
> It runs on a propane tank. I had an extra one from an old BBQ and have been
> using that one.
> Good luck..
> _Rob
>
>
>
> "DIYGUY" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>On this nice and wintry day here in NC I am yearning to go out to my
>>shop, er garage, and play. It is just a tad too chilly for my liking
>>however. I toyed with the idea of running down to the BORG to buy a
>>space heater. The choices seem to come down to three: electric, propane
>>or kerosene. And yes, I could also buy a nice wood stove but I really
>>don't want to have to fix the heater in one place with a stovepipe, much
>>less take up a permanent spot in my tiny little shop.
>>
>>So - what have you used and how has it worked for you? Any thoughts on
>>what BTUs are necessary to make 300 sf space comfortable? The garage is
>>over 12' tall - a lot of space to heat up. Strictly based on
>>convenience I am drawn towards electric and I have the amps to spare on
>>the panel. There is one other little thing of importance to me - it
>>can't break the budget of $80-100...
>>
>
>
>
I don't get why everyone thinks electric is expensive. I'm also in the
process of figuring out how to heat a newly built workshop/garage/bonus
area. Here are some stuff I've picked up in this thread:
20 lbs propane tank produces about 15000 BTU's/hour for 30 hours at
9$/tank. That equates to about 30 cents per hour.
Electricity here in Huntsville,AL is about .06 cents per kWh. At 3414
BTU per Kw it takes about 4.4 * 3414 = 15000 BTU's. That equates to
about 27 cents per hour.
Seems to electricity is cheaper here in Huntsville, AL.
Robert Bonomi wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> DIYGUY <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On this nice and wintry day here in NC I am yearning to go out to my
>>shop, er garage, and play. It is just a tad too chilly for my liking
>>however. I toyed with the idea of running down to the BORG to buy a
>>space heater. The choices seem to come down to three: electric, propane
>>or kerosene. And yes, I could also buy a nice wood stove but I really
>>don't want to have to fix the heater in one place with a stovepipe, much
>>less take up a permanent spot in my tiny little shop.
>>
>>So - what have you used and how has it worked for you? Any thoughts on
>>what BTUs are necessary to make 300 sf space comfortable? The garage is
>>over 12' tall - a lot of space to heat up. Strictly based on
>>convenience I am drawn towards electric and I have the amps to spare on
>>the panel. There is one other little thing of importance to me - it
>>can't break the budget of $80-100...
>>
>
>
> There's "acquisition costs", and "operating costs"
>
> electric is cheap to acquire, but *expensive* to operate.
>
> kero or propane are relatively inexpensive to operate, but _do_ have
> significant safety concerns. PARTICULARLY if not vented to the outside.
> The combustion byproducts also include _lots_ of water. leading to rust,
> unless care is taken.
>
> "how many BTUs?" depends greatly on the square footage of the exterior
> walls/ceilings, and the amount of insulation present. Also, 'how cold'
> you let it get when the heat is off, and 'how fast' you want to get it
> back to 'livable' temperatures.
>
> Halve the number of BTUs, and it takes somewhat (but not a lot) more than
> twice as long to raise the room temperature by the same amount.
>
> Running the half-power unit twice as long _should_ cost about the same
> as running the full-power one. And the half-power one will be cheaper
> to buy. It's a trade-off between speed-of-heating and price.
>
>
This may sound odd, but using electric heat can be more usefull if you
are working in one place. You can make an inside tent so if your
gluing, the air space in the "tent" is much smaller. Plastic Tarps
works fine. Or you can have half the space with a tarp deviding the
room. Nothing fancy but it works.
In article <[email protected]>,
Chris Rule <[email protected]> wrote:
>I don't get why everyone thinks electric is expensive. I'm also in the
>process of figuring out how to heat a newly built workshop/garage/bonus
>area. Here are some stuff I've picked up in this thread:
>
>20 lbs propane tank produces about 15000 BTU's/hour for 30 hours at
>9$/tank. That equates to about 30 cents per hour.
Burning 20 lbs of propane, *and* reducing all the generated H20 to _liquid_
_form_, releases about 450,000 BTUs of heat. A substantial part of that
amount is locked up in the water _vapor_ generated in the combustion process,
and not liberated until it is condensed to liquid water.
>Electricity here in Huntsville,AL is about .06 cents per kWh.
That is an awfully *inexpensive* price for electricity. About $60/megawatt hour.
Open-market _wholesale_ price is ball-park $100/megawatt hour.
During the recent crisis in California, spot-market wholesale prices were in
excess of $1,000/megawatt hour. I think the peak price reported was a bit
over $1,800/megawatt hour.
Tuesday's "futures market" price (on the New York Mercantile exchange) for
circa 900 megawatt-hours delivered over a month, is about $58/megawatt hr.
That's price "at the generating plant". There are NON-TRIVIAL additional
costs for getting it 'across the grid' to where you need it for consumption.
(Note: this is the 'off-season' for electric demand, short-term prices are
running well below the annual average.)
> At 3414
>BTU per Kw it takes about 4.4 * 3414 = 15000 BTU's. That equates to
>about 27 cents per hour.
Nit-pick: that's 3414 BTU per kilowatt-HOUR. Aside from that, you're
absolutely correct 4.4 kWh will generate about 15000 BTUs of heat.
>
>Seems to electricity is cheaper here in Huntsville, AL.
You're getting a *REALLY* good price. I'd practically guarantee it's coming
from the TVA. I'd also guess that that is 'base' cost of the electricity.
i.e. 'before taxes'. Which, in many territories, adds another 20-25% to the
total bill.
average base cost, nationally, is in the range of 12-13 cents per kWh. Plus
the tax load. "All-in" cost of 15+ cents/kWh is _not_ unusual.
In addition, buying propane in 20lb units is "small quantity" purchase, and
you're paying a big premium because of it.
Try pricing a 1000lb refill -- enough for 'whole house' heating for a month
or more. I wouldn't be surprised at a price in around 20 cents/lb.
"Industrial" pricing, on the NYMEX futures market, is the equivalent of about
8 _cents_ for 15,000 BTUs. about one-fourth of the rate for that $9 refill.
At something resembling typical market prices -- say $10 for a 20lb propane
refill, and $0.12/kWh for electricity, that 15000 BTUs of heat costs about
$0.33 via propane, and $0.54 via electricity.
Chris Rule <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I don't get why everyone thinks electric is expensive. I'm also in the
> process of figuring out how to heat a newly built workshop/garage/bonus
> area. Here are some stuff I've picked up in this thread:
>
> 20 lbs propane tank produces about 15000 BTU's/hour for 30 hours at
> 9$/tank. That equates to about 30 cents per hour.
>
> Electricity here in Huntsville,AL is about .06 cents per kWh. At 3414
> BTU per Kw it takes about 4.4 * 3414 = 15000 BTU's. That equates to
> about 27 cents per hour.
>
> Seems to electricity is cheaper here in Huntsville, AL.
>
> Robert Bonomi wrote:
If only we all could get that cheap federal government electricity we
paid for via TVA.
Dave Hall
In article <HO0Rb.548$%[email protected]>,
Edwin Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>Robert Bonomi wrote:
>>
>> "how many BTUs?" depends greatly on the square footage of the exterior
>> walls/ceilings, and the amount of insulation present. Also, 'how
>> cold' you let it get when the heat is off, and 'how fast' you want to
>> get it back to 'livable' temperatures.
>>
>> Halve the number of BTUs, and it takes somewhat (but not a lot) more
>> than twice as long to raise the room temperature by the same amount.
>
>This assumes that half the Btu's is adequate to reach the desired
>temperature. If you desire a 40 degree temperature rise and 30,000 Btus of
>energy is required to attain it, running a 15,000 Btu heater will not take
>twice as long, it will never give the temperature rise desired. Heat loss
>will overcome heat output.
That is quite true. However, with efficient insulation, it takes a
surprisingly small heat plant when speed of heat-up is not an issue.
I can state authoritatively that less than 50,000 BTU will maintain a
90F temperature difference on circa 2k sq ft of well-insulate house.
Admittedly, it was running with a near 100% duty-cycle to do so -- but
it _was_ maintaining a comfortable 68-70F inside, with outside temperatures
at -20 to -25F.
The "rest of the story" The house in question had been seriously remodeled/
expanded. and rather than replace the existent "perfectly good" furnace
with one adequate for the whole house, the existent one was used to heat
the 'old' space, and a 2nd unit was added for the 'new' space. Some 20+ years
later the 'old' furnace gave up the ghost, leaving the new one to carry
the entire load. Naturally, this happened in the middle of the winter,
during a _vicious_ cold spell. We *didn't*notice* the failure, immediately.
EVENTUALLY, it penetrated consciousness that one furnace was running
"almost constantly", and investigation ensued.
At about 4:00 on a _Friday_ afternoon, my Mom calls the HVAC contractor
and says: "One of my furnaces has just died, can you schedule somebody
out to look at it?" (Note: it was -27F outdoors at the time of the call.)
The receptionist at the contractor nearly panics; is apologizing *profusely*,
and explaining that it is late on Friday afternoon, that all the service
people have already left for the week-end, but "We'll have somebody out
to see you *FIRST*THING* Monday morning." To which, my mother replied:
"I'm sorry, Monday isn't _convenient_, can we schedule something for
later in the week?" This was met with _utter_ bafflement and non-
comprehension. :) About the third time around, the point got through
that (a) we were _not_ "without any heat", and (b) this was _not_ an
emergency. (There *were* _significant_ numbers of people who were in that
situation -- lots of over-stressed furnaces, particularly in rental house
had been dieing; newspaper stories how the heating repair people couldn't
keep up with the calls, etc.) For some strange reason, our contractor just
was *not* used to dealing with people that had a "hot back-up" furnace
installed and on-line. <grin> (Really, what we did have was 'separately
powered independent zones. -- We _did_ pay for that flexibility, however,
when we added central air-conditioning. Had to put in _two_ complete
A/C plants, one for each furnace. "ouch"! )
Anyway, had the 'luxury' of getting competitive bids -- and having to
ask most of the bidders to "re-quote", or explain _why_ they were quoting
a unit approximately "twice the capacity" of the unit being replaced.
(Hardly _anybody_ had bothered to 'read the plate' on the dead unit, and
were quoting on the assumption the unit being replaced heated the _entire_
house. It was surprising how 'reasonable' the 2nd round of quotes was. ;)
We did end up 'going up 1 step in size'; cuz nobody still _made_ ones as small
as the one that had died.
>
>If, however, 15,000 Btu will give the temperature rise required, 30,000 Btu
>will get you there twice as fast and have a 50% duty cyle to hold the level
>constant while 15,000 will take a 100% duty cycle. Of course this is
>greatly simplified as there is little latent heat in the cold shop and a
>given temperature rise does not alway equiate to comfort. A 40 degree rise
>is good with 30 deg. ambient, but not so great with the ambient is minus 20.
Yup. simplified indeed. but still useful points. Thermal losses to 'outside'
don't correlate linearly with temperature difference, and then there's the
infamous "humidity" issue.
Ill be posting pics as it progresses - just got staked out yesterday.
Clearing should start on Monday/Tuesday
;)
"Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Rob V wrote:
>
> > Im in the process of building a stand alone shop (w/ heat & air!!)
> > Cant wait for that to get done!
>
> Details? <g>
>
> -- Mark
>
>
Robert Bonomi wrote:
>
> "how many BTUs?" depends greatly on the square footage of the exterior
> walls/ceilings, and the amount of insulation present. Also, 'how
> cold' you let it get when the heat is off, and 'how fast' you want to
> get it back to 'livable' temperatures.
>
> Halve the number of BTUs, and it takes somewhat (but not a lot) more
> than twice as long to raise the room temperature by the same amount.
This assumes that half the Btu's is adequate to reach the desired
temperature. If you desire a 40 degree temperature rise and 30,000 Btus of
energy is required to attain it, running a 15,000 Btu heater will not take
twice as long, it will never give the temperature rise desired. Heat loss
will overcome heat output.
If, however, 15,000 Btu will give the temperature rise required, 30,000 Btu
will get you there twice as fast and have a 50% duty cyle to hold the level
constant while 15,000 will take a 100% duty cycle. Of course this is
greatly simplified as there is little latent heat in the cold shop and a
given temperature rise does not alway equiate to comfort. A 40 degree rise
is good with 30 deg. ambient, but not so great with the ambient is minus 20.
--
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
I live in Kansas City. Our winters get pretty cold at times. I have used a
kerosene heater for several years. Home Depot sells them around $100. I
love it. After just a few minutes, I have to turn it down or it gets too
hot. I think it is 23,000 BTU's if I remember correctly.
Rob
"DIYGUY" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On this nice and wintry day here in NC I am yearning to go out to my
> shop, er garage, and play. It is just a tad too chilly for my liking
> however. I toyed with the idea of running down to the BORG to buy a
> space heater. The choices seem to come down to three: electric, propane
> or kerosene. And yes, I could also buy a nice wood stove but I really
> don't want to have to fix the heater in one place with a stovepipe, much
> less take up a permanent spot in my tiny little shop.
>
> So - what have you used and how has it worked for you? Any thoughts on
> what BTUs are necessary to make 300 sf space comfortable? The garage is
> over 12' tall - a lot of space to heat up. Strictly based on
> convenience I am drawn towards electric and I have the amps to spare on
> the panel. There is one other little thing of importance to me - it
> can't break the budget of $80-100...
>
Hopefully this thread isn't dead yet -
I bought the HD kerosene heater. Used it two days, and ended up returning
it. It gave off a smell that wasn't really strong, but it was noticeable.
Also, SWMBO said she could smell it in the house and upstairs ("workshop" is
my garage with the MBR over top). It did get the place warm, but it took
about 2 hrs. due to not being insulated, etc. I did notice a slight
increase in humidity, but it wouldn't have been a problem because I keep my
machines coated with Boeshield, and covered. The other issue was the cost
of fuel - HD's kero was about $4.50/gal. The directions said to use "high
quality", and talked about some synthetic fuel made by Exxon, but that stuff
was even more expensive. I didn't figure the $1.50/gal kero from the local
gas station was "high quality". Anyway, the Kero unit didn't work for me.
Price and adverse recommendation from my HVAC company discouraged me from
trying a natural gas unit.
I'm interested in the propane - does it smell? Any CO problems or issues?
If not, (as someone already suggested) I think it would work good to run it,
get the temp up, then shut it off. Would someone comment on this? How
long does a 20 lb tank last? (about $9 locally)
TIA -
Nick B
"DIYGUY" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On this nice and wintry day here in NC I am yearning to go out to my
> shop, er garage, and play. It is just a tad too chilly for my liking
> however. I toyed with the idea of running down to the BORG to buy a
> space heater. The choices seem to come down to three: electric, propane
> or kerosene. And yes, I could also buy a nice wood stove but I really
> don't want to have to fix the heater in one place with a stovepipe, much
> less take up a permanent spot in my tiny little shop.
>
> So - what have you used and how has it worked for you? Any thoughts on
> what BTUs are necessary to make 300 sf space comfortable? The garage is
> over 12' tall - a lot of space to heat up. Strictly based on
> convenience I am drawn towards electric and I have the amps to spare on
> the panel. There is one other little thing of importance to me - it
> can't break the budget of $80-100...
>
Rob V wrote:
> Ill be posting pics as it progresses - just got staked out yesterday.
> Clearing should start on Monday/Tuesday
When my folks built their house in c. 1973 the first stone was the largest.
As a Kollage Graduate I know that's not very likely but that's what
happened. Don't get discouraged if the backhoe cowers in the first half
hour. <g>
-- Mark
Where in NC are you?
Im in fuquay (just out side of raleigh)
about 2 months ago I broke down and got a small propane rocket type heater
from the borg.
The Reedy Heater - 40,000 BTU one. (Dont remember the price - but it was
under 100)
I have a 3 stall garage (1 of which is my shop) all open w/ 14' ceilings.
I made it a point when I build the house to insulate the garage and spend
the extra $$ for a insulated garage door as well. W/ that heater I can get
it up to a toasty 70 degrees and it stays there for a while.
I ran it for about 1/2 hr this morning (9:30-10am) it got to about 71 and
its at 68 right now (1pm)
I let it run for about 45 mins to an hour before I go in then turn it off.
The coldest I normally gets is about 50. (last week when it was in the 30s
outside - it was 50 in there.)
I can work out there confortable for a while - if it gets too cold I guess I
just crank it back up again and take a break. But havent had to do that
yet.
Anyways - Id recommend that one.
It runs on a propane tank. I had an extra one from an old BBQ and have been
using that one.
Good luck..
_Rob
"DIYGUY" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On this nice and wintry day here in NC I am yearning to go out to my
> shop, er garage, and play. It is just a tad too chilly for my liking
> however. I toyed with the idea of running down to the BORG to buy a
> space heater. The choices seem to come down to three: electric, propane
> or kerosene. And yes, I could also buy a nice wood stove but I really
> don't want to have to fix the heater in one place with a stovepipe, much
> less take up a permanent spot in my tiny little shop.
>
> So - what have you used and how has it worked for you? Any thoughts on
> what BTUs are necessary to make 300 sf space comfortable? The garage is
> over 12' tall - a lot of space to heat up. Strictly based on
> convenience I am drawn towards electric and I have the amps to spare on
> the panel. There is one other little thing of importance to me - it
> can't break the budget of $80-100...
>
Not too bad at all.
You can work w/ it on w/ no problems.
I had an electric heater first - but it didnt work well at all. I think it
was like 18000 btu.
Its no comparison to 40k btus.
Im in the process of building a stand alone shop (w/ heat & air!!) Cant
wait for that to get done!
"DIYGUY" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hey Rob,
> I am just north of you in Raleigh. The garage is not insulated. How is
> the noise factor on the rocket?? I don't have any particular need to
> work in my shirtsleeves but I like the idea of 68-70 degrees. I wonder
> how long it would take to get there with an electric radiant heater ...
>
> Rob V wrote:
> > Where in NC are you?
> >
> > Im in fuquay (just out side of raleigh)
> > about 2 months ago I broke down and got a small propane rocket type
heater
> > from the borg.
> > The Reedy Heater - 40,000 BTU one. (Dont remember the price - but it
was
> > under 100)
> >
> > I have a 3 stall garage (1 of which is my shop) all open w/ 14'
ceilings.
> > I made it a point when I build the house to insulate the garage and
spend
> > the extra $$ for a insulated garage door as well. W/ that heater I can
get
> > it up to a toasty 70 degrees and it stays there for a while.
> > I ran it for about 1/2 hr this morning (9:30-10am) it got to about 71
and
> > its at 68 right now (1pm)
> > I let it run for about 45 mins to an hour before I go in then turn it
off.
> > The coldest I normally gets is about 50. (last week when it was in the
30s
> > outside - it was 50 in there.)
> > I can work out there confortable for a while - if it gets too cold I
guess I
> > just crank it back up again and take a break. But havent had to do that
> > yet.
> >
> > Anyways - Id recommend that one.
> > It runs on a propane tank. I had an extra one from an old BBQ and have
been
> > using that one.
> > Good luck..
> > _Rob
> >
> >
> >
> > "DIYGUY" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>On this nice and wintry day here in NC I am yearning to go out to my
> >>shop, er garage, and play. It is just a tad too chilly for my liking
> >>however. I toyed with the idea of running down to the BORG to buy a
> >>space heater. The choices seem to come down to three: electric, propane
> >>or kerosene. And yes, I could also buy a nice wood stove but I really
> >>don't want to have to fix the heater in one place with a stovepipe, much
> >>less take up a permanent spot in my tiny little shop.
> >>
> >>So - what have you used and how has it worked for you? Any thoughts on
> >>what BTUs are necessary to make 300 sf space comfortable? The garage is
> >>over 12' tall - a lot of space to heat up. Strictly based on
> >>convenience I am drawn towards electric and I have the amps to spare on
> >>the panel. There is one other little thing of importance to me - it
> >>can't break the budget of $80-100...
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
I'm stuck - all the advice is most welcome, but now I have to sort
through factors I was not even aware of. Reminds me of the old Chinese
proverb - decisions are easy when choices are few...
Here is some additional information. The garage is 14Wx22Lx12H. It has
no insulation and there are two doors plus the roll-up. We don't have
any gas in the neighborhood. I would likely use the shop around 6-8
hours per week when the heat is on. The walls are covered in plybead
and thus are a little harder than drywall to repair cuts. I really
don't want to take up much space and whatever I use doesn't have to be
permanent. I had seen the Mr. Heater units someone mentioned but
questioned whether 9,000 BTUs would be enough to accomplish anything in
such a large space. I suppose when my hands start to feel the chill I
could always go put them in the heat. I do know enough to wear a hat ...
DIYGUY wrote:
> On this nice and wintry day here in NC I am yearning to go out to my
> shop, er garage, and play. It is just a tad too chilly for my liking
> however. I toyed with the idea of running down to the BORG to buy a
> space heater. The choices seem to come down to three: electric, propane
> or kerosene. And yes, I could also buy a nice wood stove but I really
> don't want to have to fix the heater in one place with a stovepipe, much
> less take up a permanent spot in my tiny little shop.
>
> So - what have you used and how has it worked for you? Any thoughts on
> what BTUs are necessary to make 300 sf space comfortable? The garage is
> over 12' tall - a lot of space to heat up. Strictly based on
> convenience I am drawn towards electric and I have the amps to spare on
> the panel. There is one other little thing of importance to me - it
> can't break the budget of $80-100...
>
"Rob" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I live in Kansas City. Our winters get pretty cold at times. I have
> used a kerosene heater for several years. Home Depot sells them
> around $100. I love it. After just a few minutes, I have to turn it
> down or it gets too hot. I think it is 23,000 BTU's if I remember
> correctly.
>
> Rob
>
>
> "DIYGUY" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On this nice and wintry day here in NC I am yearning to go out to my
>> shop, er garage, and play. It is just a tad too chilly for my liking
>> however. I toyed with the idea of running down to the BORG to buy a
>> space heater. The choices seem to come down to three: electric,
>> propane or kerosene. And yes, I could also buy a nice wood stove but
>> I really don't want to have to fix the heater in one place with a
>> stovepipe, much less take up a permanent spot in my tiny little shop.
>>
>> So - what have you used and how has it worked for you? Any thoughts
>> on what BTUs are necessary to make 300 sf space comfortable? The
>> garage is over 12' tall - a lot of space to heat up. Strictly based
>> on convenience I am drawn towards electric and I have the amps to
>> spare on the panel. There is one other little thing of importance to
>> me - it can't break the budget of $80-100...
>>
>
>
>
Call around to the locat heating and air conditioning places. Find one
that will sell you a used gas heater that someone has upgraded. Mount it
ouside the garage. Put one hole through the wall for a return and one
through the wall for supply. Enclose the unit in a "shed" with an outside
door. Duct the vent through the roof of the shed. It will be sooooooooooo
much cheaper than electric. And you won't have to wory about things like
paint fumes causing an explosion because the burner isn't in the garage
with the fumes. If you do the work yourself then you can probably do it
for a couple of hundred or so. Its not the $80 - $100 you asked for but
you will save the extra hundred in electric bills the first year.
"Chris Rule" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
> Electricity here in Huntsville,AL is about .06 cents per kWh. At 3414
> BTU per Kw it takes about 4.4 * 3414 = 15000 BTU's. That equates to
> about 27 cents per hour.
>
> Seems to electricity is cheaper here in Huntsville, AL.
Very cheap. Many parts of the country are 11¢ to 14¢. Propane can be $12 a
refill.
"Chris Rule" writes:
> I don't get why everyone thinks electric is expensive.
It is typically the most expensive heating energy source.
<snip>
> 20 lbs propane tank produces about 15000 BTU's/hour for 30 hours at
> 9$/tank. That equates to about 30 cents per hour.
>
> Electricity here in Huntsville,AL is about .06 cents per kWh.
You are obviously using subsidized power.
Try about $0.15/KWH in the open market.
> Seems to electricity is cheaper here in Huntsville, AL.
Definitely. Are you getting power from the TVA?
BTW, if you want to reduce propane costs, buy 5-6, 20 lb tanks and get 5
refilled at one time from your local propane distributor.
SFWIW, I used a lot of propane to melt and cast 12,000 lbs of lead for my
boat ballast.
HTH
--
Lew
S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures
Mark and Kim Smith <[email protected]> writes:
>Well, who needs heaters in California??
You have to take the edge off when it gets below 57 in the
garage.
scott
[*] obviously facetious - however, there are issues with finishing
at low temperature wherein a heater in the garage would do some
good, even in california (at $0.15 - $0.19 /kwh depending on usage).
In article <[email protected]>,
DIYGUY <[email protected]> wrote:
>Hey Rob,
>I am just north of you in Raleigh. The garage is not insulated. How is
>the noise factor on the rocket?? I don't have any particular need to
>work in my shirtsleeves but I like the idea of 68-70 degrees. I wonder
>how long it would take to get there with an electric radiant heater ...
simple math will tell you.
1 kilowatt is equivalent to 3414 btu/hr.
To match a 30k BTU gas heater, you need around 9kw of heating. or over
36A at 240V. Which calls for a dedicated 50A circuit. due to "80% rule".
9A @ 240v will take somewhat over 4x the time, to give the same temperature
change.
>
>Rob V wrote:
>> Where in NC are you?
>>
>> Im in fuquay (just out side of raleigh)
>> about 2 months ago I broke down and got a small propane rocket type heater
>> from the borg.
>> The Reedy Heater - 40,000 BTU one. (Dont remember the price - but it was
>> under 100)
>>
>> I have a 3 stall garage (1 of which is my shop) all open w/ 14' ceilings.
>> I made it a point when I build the house to insulate the garage and spend
>> the extra $$ for a insulated garage door as well. W/ that heater I can get
>> it up to a toasty 70 degrees and it stays there for a while.
>> I ran it for about 1/2 hr this morning (9:30-10am) it got to about 71 and
>> its at 68 right now (1pm)
>> I let it run for about 45 mins to an hour before I go in then turn it off.
>> The coldest I normally gets is about 50. (last week when it was in the 30s
>> outside - it was 50 in there.)
>> I can work out there confortable for a while - if it gets too cold I guess I
>> just crank it back up again and take a break. But havent had to do that
>> yet.
>>
>> Anyways - Id recommend that one.
>> It runs on a propane tank. I had an extra one from an old BBQ and have been
>> using that one.
>> Good luck..
>> _Rob
>>
>>
>>
>> "DIYGUY" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>On this nice and wintry day here in NC I am yearning to go out to my
>>>shop, er garage, and play. It is just a tad too chilly for my liking
>>>however. I toyed with the idea of running down to the BORG to buy a
>>>space heater. The choices seem to come down to three: electric, propane
>>>or kerosene. And yes, I could also buy a nice wood stove but I really
>>>don't want to have to fix the heater in one place with a stovepipe, much
>>>less take up a permanent spot in my tiny little shop.
>>>
>>>So - what have you used and how has it worked for you? Any thoughts on
>>>what BTUs are necessary to make 300 sf space comfortable? The garage is
>>>over 12' tall - a lot of space to heat up. Strictly based on
>>>convenience I am drawn towards electric and I have the amps to spare on
>>>the panel. There is one other little thing of importance to me - it
>>>can't break the budget of $80-100...
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
In article <[email protected]>,
DIYGUY <[email protected]> wrote:
>On this nice and wintry day here in NC I am yearning to go out to my
>shop, er garage, and play. It is just a tad too chilly for my liking
>however. I toyed with the idea of running down to the BORG to buy a
>space heater. The choices seem to come down to three: electric, propane
>or kerosene. And yes, I could also buy a nice wood stove but I really
>don't want to have to fix the heater in one place with a stovepipe, much
>less take up a permanent spot in my tiny little shop.
>
>So - what have you used and how has it worked for you? Any thoughts on
>what BTUs are necessary to make 300 sf space comfortable? The garage is
>over 12' tall - a lot of space to heat up. Strictly based on
>convenience I am drawn towards electric and I have the amps to spare on
>the panel. There is one other little thing of importance to me - it
>can't break the budget of $80-100...
>
There's "acquisition costs", and "operating costs"
electric is cheap to acquire, but *expensive* to operate.
kero or propane are relatively inexpensive to operate, but _do_ have
significant safety concerns. PARTICULARLY if not vented to the outside.
The combustion byproducts also include _lots_ of water. leading to rust,
unless care is taken.
"how many BTUs?" depends greatly on the square footage of the exterior
walls/ceilings, and the amount of insulation present. Also, 'how cold'
you let it get when the heat is off, and 'how fast' you want to get it
back to 'livable' temperatures.
Halve the number of BTUs, and it takes somewhat (but not a lot) more than
twice as long to raise the room temperature by the same amount.
Running the half-power unit twice as long _should_ cost about the same
as running the full-power one. And the half-power one will be cheaper
to buy. It's a trade-off between speed-of-heating and price.
In article <[email protected]>,
Nick Bozovich <[email protected]> wrote:
>Hopefully this thread isn't dead yet -
>
>I bought the HD kerosene heater. Used it two days, and ended up returning
>it. It gave off a smell that wasn't really strong, but it was noticeable.
>Also, SWMBO said she could smell it in the house and upstairs ("workshop" is
>my garage with the MBR over top). It did get the place warm, but it took
>about 2 hrs. due to not being insulated, etc. I did notice a slight
>increase in humidity, but it wouldn't have been a problem because I keep my
>machines coated with Boeshield, and covered. The other issue was the cost
>of fuel - HD's kero was about $4.50/gal. The directions said to use "high
>quality", and talked about some synthetic fuel made by Exxon, but that stuff
>was even more expensive. I didn't figure the $1.50/gal kero from the local
>gas station was "high quality".
comment: "Gas station kerosene" _is_ probably of adequate quality.
> Anyway, the Kero unit didn't work for me.
>
>Price and adverse recommendation from my HVAC company discouraged me from
>trying a natural gas unit.
>
>I'm interested in the propane - does it smell? Any CO problems or issues?
Propane does have less 'smell' than kero.
CO is _always_ an issue with anything that 'burns'.
With 'perfect' combustion, the only byproducts from propane are CO2 and H2O.
If there's insufficient oxygen available, there is risk of getting CO.
The "right way" is a 'sealed combustion chamber' unit that is vented
outside. These do cost non-trivial money. natural gas fed, or propane.
>If not, (as someone already suggested) I think it would work good to run it,
>get the temp up, then shut it off. Would someone comment on this? How
>long does a 20 lb tank last? (about $9 locally)
"Twice as long as a 10 lb one." Not trying to be facetious, but it depends
on a -lot- of things -- how big the space is; how well it is, or is not,
insulated; how cold it is outside; how much outside air you need to let
in for proper combustion; etc., etc., ad nauseum.
If I did my math right, 20 lbs of propane generates 'net' about 411,000 BTUs
of heat. And will produce about 32.7 lbs of water vapor. that water vapor
condensing will liberate another roughly 980,000 BTUs of heat.
I'm not sure how the water vapor energy is counted, but at 30,000 BTU/hr,
it looks like 13.7 to 46.6 hrs.
>
>TIA -
>
>Nick B
>
>
>"DIYGUY" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On this nice and wintry day here in NC I am yearning to go out to my
>> shop, er garage, and play. It is just a tad too chilly for my liking
>> however. I toyed with the idea of running down to the BORG to buy a
>> space heater. The choices seem to come down to three: electric, propane
>> or kerosene. And yes, I could also buy a nice wood stove but I really
>> don't want to have to fix the heater in one place with a stovepipe, much
>> less take up a permanent spot in my tiny little shop.
>>
>> So - what have you used and how has it worked for you? Any thoughts on
>> what BTUs are necessary to make 300 sf space comfortable? The garage is
>> over 12' tall - a lot of space to heat up. Strictly based on
>> convenience I am drawn towards electric and I have the amps to spare on
>> the panel. There is one other little thing of importance to me - it
>> can't break the budget of $80-100...
>>
>
>
Well, who needs heaters in California??
Pat Barber wrote:
> Knowing where you are Lew, explains your electrical
> costs.(are you not in the great state of California ??)
>
> Average KWH rates in the Carolina's is .06/kwh - .08/kwh
>
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>
>> You are obviously using subsidized power.
>>
>> Try about $0.15/KWH in the open market.
>
>
DIYGUY wrote:
> Here is some additional information. The garage is 14Wx22Lx12H. It has
> permanent. I had seen the Mr. Heater units someone mentioned but
> questioned whether 9,000 BTUs would be enough to accomplish anything in
> such a large space. I suppose when my hands start to feel the chill I
It's a bit more than that at full tilt, I think 12 or 15,000 BTUs. No, it's
probably not enough for that big of a space. My shop is 10x12x8, more or
less, and the Mr. Heater definitely doesn't get it toasty. The low setting
is completely worthless IMHO.
Even at that, it's over your $100 budget by the time you buy a tank and a
hose for the thing.
For my part, I sealed up the cracks as best I could, and added as much heat
as I could afford. The Mr. Heater and a pair of 1500W ceramic heaters with
fans. I can run one heater at full power, and the other at half power on a
single 20A circuit, so long as I turn one of them off when using any power
tools.
The combination isn't enough to get the shop warm enough for glue to cure
properly. At least, I'm not willing to spend the money it would take to
heat the place that much, let's say. It might get there after five or six
hours or something, but not in the course of a typical four-hour shop day.
Doing glue in the shop would be expensive, so I'm not doing anything that
requires glue for the moment.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote in message
> >If not, (as someone already suggested) I think it would work good to run it,
> >get the temp up, then shut it off. Would someone comment on this? How
> >long does a 20 lb tank last? (about $9 locally)
>
> "Twice as long as a 10 lb one." Not trying to be facetious, but it depends
> on a -lot- of things -- how big the space is; how well it is, or is not,
> insulated; how cold it is outside; how much outside air you need to let
> in for proper combustion; etc., etc., ad nauseum.
I'll got a step farther. I use a "Mr. Heater" single burner tank
mount rig in my shop in the winter. Winter nights in Knoxville vary
from the high 20's (F) to the low 40's.
On "high," I get about thirty hours burn out of a 20# tank. Getting
to the shop 30 hours a week is a REALLY good week, so I burn about two
tanks or so a month.
Bill
DIYGUY <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
Kero and propane heaters put a lot of water into the air. This is ok
as long as the shop is warm. As soon as things, like cast iron, cool
below the dew point all that water starts to condense....
I like eletric heat or a wood stove.
mike
>
> So - what have you used and how has it worked for you? Any thoughts on
> what BTUs are necessary to make 300 sf space comfortable? The garage is
> over 12' tall - a lot of space to heat up. Strictly based on
> convenience I am drawn towards electric and I have the amps to spare on
> the panel. There is one other little thing of importance to me - it
> can't break the budget of $80-100...
This is a repeat post, I posted on an old post but here it is again.
I know it pbbly doesn't meet the budget requirments, and maybe I'm
just gloating a bit here, but I just built my dream shop and it's all
in-floor radiant heating. It cannot be beat - please don't argue with
me on that<G>. I heat a 600 sqft shop, a 720sq ft garage and the
basement under the 600 sqft shop with a 40 gallon water heater running
propane.
No blower, no smell, no noise, no dust blowing around and unless I'm
handling heavy stuff, I can kick off my shoes, even last week when it
was -15F. I can't stand the smell of burning kerosene and flames in
the shop give me the willies.
We installed all the hoses ourselves and spent 3 evenings hooking up
the brains of the system with the help of a friend. Most all parts
came from the local home-improvement shop.
You should give serious consideration to covering up any cement floor.
I don't care if you use the cheapest (which will actually be the
costliest in the long run) heater. You'll just be draining the heat
thru the cement floor and the wear on your legs and knees will be much
reduced. I had a big shop with cement floor and big wood furnace and I
just wouldn't spend evening time during the week out there because it
took too long to heat up. With all the heavy steel in the equipment
and the big cement slab, it was hard to get really warm out there. Now
I spend 3 hours minimum every night in my shop.
Beware of dust explosions if you're using open flame torpedoes. Also
never-never throw un-contained sawdust in a wood stove. You've heard
of grain-elevators exploding and you'll get a quick lesson in why it
happens of you just shovel loose sawdust into a wood stove.
Anyway - this pbbly doesn't help but thought I'd share my ideas.
jb
"Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Rob V wrote:
> > Ill be posting pics as it progresses - just got staked out yesterday.
> > Clearing should start on Monday/Tuesday
>
> When my folks built their house in c. 1973 the first stone was the
largest.
> As a Kollage Graduate I know that's not very likely but that's what
> happened. Don't get discouraged if the backhoe cowers in the first half
> hour. <g>
If you choose electrical heating, you should try a radiant heater. They're
very fast and efficient.