The angle of the dangle

Wood Butcher wrote:
> Forget about the math.
> Think. WWRD?
>
> Have a helper hold the joint together while you adjust a bevel
> gauge to the angle that the 2x4 is leaning. Transfer this angle to
> your saw.
>
> Art

Exactly! I was born with a head for math (no fault of mine <g>) and have
successfully vanquished many an equation with enough Greek symbols to start
a library. But in woodworking my bevel gauge is my constant friend. Who
cares how Einstein would have done it? Set the bevel, draw the line, cut
it, and finish it. ;-)

-- Mark

"Tom Veatch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 01:54:46 -0500, "todd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"Tom Veatch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >> At the risk of exposing my ignorance for all the world to see: Who or
What
> >is "Roy"??
> >>
> >>
> >> Tom Veatch
> >> Wichita, KS USA
> >
> >Well, I stumbled into this thread late, but when "Roy" comes up around
here,
> >it's usually in reference to Roy Underhill from The Woodwright's Shop -
> >neander-extraordinaire.
> >
> >todd
> >
>
> Todd, I'm sure that's the answer to my question. I assume "The
Woodwright's Shop" is a TV program - perhaps the other side of
> Abram's NYW. That would be one excuse for my ignorance as I rarely spend
more than an hour or two per week in front of the TV. That
> sounds like one I might like to check out. Now if I can find which section
of the newspaper has the TV listings...
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS USA

If you find it at all, it's likely to be on a PBS station.

todd

"Tom Veatch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 23:54:21 GMT, "Wood Butcher" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Forget about the math.
> >Think. WWRD?
> >
> >Have a helper hold the joint together while you adjust a bevel
> >gauge to the angle that the 2x4 is leaning. Transfer this angle to
> >your saw.
> >
> >Art
> >
>
> At the risk of exposing my ignorance for all the world to see: Who or What
is "Roy"??
>
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS USA

Well, I stumbled into this thread late, but when "Roy" comes up around here,
it's usually in reference to Roy Underhill from The Woodwright's Shop -
neander-extraordinaire.

todd

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 01:54:46 -0500, "todd" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Tom Veatch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> At the risk of exposing my ignorance for all the world to see: Who or What
>is "Roy"??
>>
>>
>> Tom Veatch
>> Wichita, KS USA
>
>Well, I stumbled into this thread late, but when "Roy" comes up around here,
>it's usually in reference to Roy Underhill from The Woodwright's Shop -
>neander-extraordinaire.
>
>todd
>

Todd, I'm sure that's the answer to my question. I assume "The Woodwright's Shop" is a TV program - perhaps the other side of
Abram's NYW. That would be one excuse for my ignorance as I rarely spend more than an hour or two per week in front of the TV. That
sounds like one I might like to check out. Now if I can find which section of the newspaper has the TV listings...

Thanks for the reply.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

>
> Heck. I have a degree in Economics. One of the classic phrases of that
> art is, uttered while waving the left hand in the air, "It can be shown
> that....", and proceeding as though truth had been established, without
> ever, in fact, proving, or sometimes, even supporting, the contention.

Heh, me too. It really prepared me for the world of application
integration and a woodworking hobby :) I have to stop myself from
thinking about the wood commodity market while picking out boards...

Your comment reminds me of an old economist joke:

An economist, an engineer, and a physicist go out camping together.
The day gets long and they start getting hungry, so they get out thier
stash of canned food and realize that they forgot a can opener. They
all think about it for a minute.

The physicist says "I know! we can put the can in the fire. Eventually
heat will build pressure and the can will not be able to hold the
pressure!"

The engineer replies "Yes, but then we'll be covered with cream corn.
How about we bend that sapling over there to create a tensioned lever.
We stap a pointy rock on the end of it and brace the can on a rock on
the ground. Accounting for wind changes and the angularity of the can
to the ground, we precisely release the tension in the sapling causing
the rock to accurately remove the top from the can.

The economist says, "Sounds way to complicated to me. There's got to
be a better solution. (long pause) Okay! I got it....

"Assume you have a can opener..."


Jay

Let the booing begin! I'll also be waiting for the "Neander, Normite,
and rough carpenter" version of the tale.

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:55:25 GMT, "Wood Butcher" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> With degrees in electrical engineering I'm no stranger to this
>kind of basic math. It just isn't necessary to solve the problem.

>"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein

You should stop quoting him; you and he have nothing in common. He
wasn't petty. People now have several choices, and can take
whichever they choose. That's all.

Dan.

Well, Mr. Harry Putnam <[email protected]>, it's like this; your first
post here was on 19-Mar-2004 and in it you stated "I'm a lightweight
hobbyist". Your third post initiated this thread. From your initial statement
and the basic angle question you posed, I assumed you were a newbie to
woodworking.

Obviously I was wrong in this. Please forgive me for not recognizing your
vast experience and knowledge. It is now obvious to me that I will not be
able to offer any assistance or help to someone of your eminent stature.

Perhaps you could condescend and be so kind as to dispense with the
arrogance and share some of your masterful woodworking wisdom with
this group?

Art


"Harry Putnam" <[email protected]> wrote in message ...
> "Wood Butcher" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > What's your issue with a 'helper'? A clamp is a 'helper'. Even a
> > pile of rocks can be a 'helper'. It would seem that you made the
> > bad assumption that a helper had to be the live kind.
>
> A reply with an answer is a `helper'. A reply with an answer to some
> other question is a waste of bandwidth.
>
> > You're not safe in your assumption about me not knowing the
> > mathematical answer either. With degrees in electrical engineering
> > I'm no stranger to this kind of basic math. It just isn't necessary
> > to solve the problem.
>
> Anyone who has ever rubbed two sticks together knows how to hold in
> position and set a bevel. Why would you jump in with advice so time
> worn and obvious? Had you actually read the post, which asked for a
> `mathmatical' solution, you might have just not replied since even with
> your numerous degrees, you don't seem to have a clue how it would be
> ascertained.
>

Forget about the math.
Think. WWRD?

Have a helper hold the joint together while you adjust a bevel
gauge to the angle that the 2x4 is leaning. Transfer this angle to
your saw.

Art

<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> My meager math skills fall short of getting this calculation.
>
> I'm pretty sure any old calculator can get this but knowing what to
> feed it is whats missing.
>
> I've figured a compound angle to join a 2x4 frame of 16" square. with
> the 4 side verticle ... (on edge)
>
> Now to keep the top side parallel to floor...
>
> A quicky ascii art diagram:
> ____________ _____________
> -------------------------\ /------------------------------
> \ /
> \ /
> -----------------------------\ /---------------------------------------
> a b
> Those two angles are not the same:
>
> a= 78.69 and b=84.28. You have to imaging the 45 degree mitre
> not shown. But when the parts are layed together at a 90, the top
> side leans inboard so it isn't parallel to an imagined floor.
>
> These are 2x4 lumber, how can I figure the angle of cut for the
> top 2in wide side, so that it ends up parallel to floor?

What's your issue with a 'helper'? A clamp is a 'helper'. Even a pile of rocks
can be a 'helper'. It would seem that you made the bad assumption that a
helper had to be the live kind.

You're not safe in your assumption about me not knowing the mathematical
answer either. With degrees in electrical engineering I'm no stranger to this
kind of basic math. It just isn't necessary to solve the problem.

Art

"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein


<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "Wood Butcher" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> [...]
> > Forget about the math.
> > Think. WWRD?
> >
> > Have a helper hold the joint together while you adjust a bevel
> > gauge to the angle that the 2x4 is leaning. Transfer this angle to
> > your saw.
>
> The operative word here is `helper'
>
> patriarch <[email protected]> writes:
>
> [...]
> > WWRD? = What would Roy do?
> >
> "Wood Butcher" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > Bingo! Maybe I should trademark that one if nobody else has already
> > laid claim to it.
>
> "Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> writes:
> > Exactly! I was born with a head for math (no fault of mine <g>) and have
> > successfully vanquished many an equation with enough Greek symbols to start
> > a library. But in woodworking my bevel gauge is my constant friend. Who
> > cares how Einstein would have done it? Set the bevel, draw the line, cut
> > it, and finish it. ;-)
>
> So can I safely assume you guys don't know? : )

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:43:41 -0500, Harry Putnam <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>Danny Boy <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>> You have tables of compound angles available, just handed to you. So
>>> use them. There's nothing wrong with that either, and you don't need a
>>> helper with the shakes. You just need to know how to read. My father
>>
>>What table was handed to me?... That flew right over my thick skull.
>
>I offered to post one here a while back I did myself as an Excel
>spreadsheet, or just the printout if you wanted, but that's frowned
>upon. I'll look for some other way. A PDF is fairly tiny but
>someone would bitch even then.
>
Please be aware that many news servers automatically strip any and all
attachments to anything that was posted in a non-binary group. So even if
nobody objected to your posting binaries here, it wouldn't work anyway. It
has nothing to do with the size of the file, and everything to do with the
fact that there are binaries groups for binary posts, and non-binary groups
for text-only posts.

Besides which, there already is a binaries group set up *specifically* for
posting woodworking-related binaries: alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking, or
ABPW for short. The accepted procedure is to post your picture, spreadsheet,
pdf, or whatever to ABPW, and post a note here alerting people to the post in
ABPW.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com

RE: Subject

Let's see now when the angle of the dangle equals the rise in your
Levis............

Naw, I won't go there.


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures

"Wood Butcher" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:MQDhc.273$YP5.46217@attbi_s02:

> Forget about the math.
> Think. WWRD?
>
> Have a helper hold the joint together while you adjust a bevel
> gauge to the angle that the 2x4 is leaning. Transfer this angle to
> your saw.
>
> Art
>
WWRD? = What would Roy do?

I like your thinking, Art. I often ask myself how my grandfather, a
Danish-immigrant blacksmith, would have done solved a problem. HE never
took trig, that's for sure. And he was the hardware supplier for the area,
for the most part.

Patriarch

[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:

> "Wood Butcher" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> [...]
>> Forget about the math.
>> Think. WWRD?
>>
>> Have a helper hold the joint together while you adjust a bevel
>> gauge to the angle that the 2x4 is leaning. Transfer this angle to
>> your saw.
>
> The operative word here is `helper'
>
> patriarch <[email protected]> writes:
>
> [...]
>> WWRD? = What would Roy do?
>>
> "Wood Butcher" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> Bingo! Maybe I should trademark that one if nobody else has already
>> laid claim to it.
>
> "Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> writes:
>> Exactly! I was born with a head for math (no fault of mine <g>) and
>> have successfully vanquished many an equation with enough Greek
>> symbols to start a library. But in woodworking my bevel gauge is my
>> constant friend. Who cares how Einstein would have done it? Set the
>> bevel, draw the line, cut it, and finish it. ;-)
>
> So can I safely assume you guys don't know? : )
>

You can safely assume that if we know how to solve the problem adequately
in several acceptable ways that we can only screw up with extreme effort,
that anything 'more elegant' is 'left as an exercise for the students'.

Heck. I have a degree in Economics. One of the classic phrases of that
art is, uttered while waving the left hand in the air, "It can be shown
that....", and proceeding as though truth had been established, without
ever, in fact, proving, or sometimes, even supporting, the contention.

You got at least one good answer. It's worked for years. You want more,
get a hold of a good book on classic Chinese joinery.

Patriarch

[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:

> patriarch <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>
>> You got at least one good answer. It's worked for years. You want
>> more, get a hold of a good book on classic Chinese joinery.
>
> Whoa Bubba... I think you missed the smiley.

Prolly did. And evidently I hadn't properly applied my cranky filter.

As one of the regulars here says, "Mahalo"

Patriarch

"patriarch" wrote in message
<snip>
> WWRD? = What would Roy do?

Bingo! Maybe I should trademark that one if nobody else has already
laid claim to it.

>
> I like your thinking, Art. I often ask myself how my grandfather, a
> Danish-immigrant blacksmith, would have done solved a problem. HE never
> took trig, that's for sure. And he was the hardware supplier for the area,
> for the most part.

Thanks. I try to look for the simplest solution to a problem. That way there
is less chance for me to screw it up.

>
> Patriarch

"Danny Boy"wrote in message

> I offered to post one here a while back I did myself as an Excel
> spreadsheet, or just the printout if you wanted, but that's frowned
> upon. I'll look for some other way. A PDF is fairly tiny but
> someone would bitch even then.

Go to alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking and post away!

That's what it is there for ... binaries don't just limit you to pictures.
Keep in mind that many folks will be skittish about downloading a document,
other than a .pdf, that could contain a virus of some sort.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/13/04

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 04:00:27 GMT, patriarch
<[email protected]> wrote:


>Heck. I have a degree in Economics. One of the classic phrases of that
>art is, uttered while waving the left hand in the air, "It can be shown
>that....", and proceeding as though truth had been established, without
>ever, in fact, proving, or sometimes, even supporting, the contention.
>
>You got at least one good answer. It's worked for years. You want more,
>get a hold of a good book on classic Chinese joinery.

Nothing wrong with that. I've had a degree in math/physics for more
years than I can count. What turns my crank is that you can draw an
ellipse with two circles and a straightedge; the art of descriptive
geometry [layout ...the sort of thing being discussed here, but more,
like the tinsmith forming and joining round tin tubes at an angle].
And who doesn't know about "The Carpenter's Square", a book that shows
you how to layout and build spiral staircases?

Has anyone seen that 'simple' table from IKEA? Don't laugh until
you've designed one yourself. It's a rectangular top. Turn the top
90 degrees and fold it open to double the size. Two questions: 1.
Where do you put the pivot point? 2. what ratio of sides so that the
open table has the same shape (but larger) as the original? I can
figure that out easily, I can then tell you easily, and you can do it
easily (likely much better than I could), and don't forget why ...the
math that is needed to figure it out in the first place. But I would
(and do) come here for the experts who can tell me what type of
material goes with which, and which kind of pivot support is best, and
a whole mess of other useful information. I don't knock that. I
absorb it and someday use it.

I like nothing better than applied math. However, don't forget that
is what it is, "applied". So don't knock it completely. As human
beings we are not satisfied with just a little. We want all the
bananas. My background is blue-collar steelworks. It pays to have
both feet on the ground *and* to know the reasons why. Always keep
an open mind.

You have tables of compound angles available, just handed to you. So
use them. There's nothing wrong with that either, and you don't need a
helper with the shakes. You just need to know how to read. My father
was also a highly skilled tradesman, and I listened to him too. It's
called "tricks of the trade", and we learn something every day.

Dan.

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:43:41 -0500, Harry Putnam <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Danny Boy <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> You have tables of compound angles available, just handed to you. So
>> use them. There's nothing wrong with that either, and you don't need a
>> helper with the shakes. You just need to know how to read. My father
>
>What table was handed to me?... That flew right over my thick skull.

I offered to post one here a while back I did myself as an Excel
spreadsheet, or just the printout if you wanted, but that's frowned
upon. I'll look for some other way. A PDF is fairly tiny but
someone would bitch even then.

Dan.

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 21:36:03 -0500, Harry Putnam <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"Wood Butcher" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> Perhaps you could condescend and be so kind as to dispense with the
>> arrogance and share some of your masterful woodworking wisdom with
>> this group?
>
>Did you have a question?

Sure ...How do you find the angle of ... Jsut kidding.

I will answer one though:
No drama, no fuss. I'm pretty sure this angle of cut can be
established before hand with a light weight calculation of some kind.
I'd hoped someone here would know it.

There is no "easy" answer. It's not "lightweight." But is has been
established beforehand, and is readily available, and all of this
waste of time would really now be better spent helping each other
build stuff instead of yelling at a computer screen. There's enough
spam and junk mail around already.

Dan.

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 23:54:21 GMT, "Wood Butcher" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Forget about the math.
>Think. WWRD?
>
>Have a helper hold the joint together while you adjust a bevel
>gauge to the angle that the 2x4 is leaning. Transfer this angle to
>your saw.
>
>Art
>

At the risk of exposing my ignorance for all the world to see: Who or What is "Roy"??


Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:29:09 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Go to alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking and post away!

Done.

Look for compangle2.pdf. I didn't double check, and rounded to
nearest 1/4 degree (fair enough?) I hope this is helpful. If you
find anything wrong, write here ...in a new thread titled "Dan doesn't
have a clue"... or something like that.

Dan.

[email protected] writes:

I see people are havuing a high old time with my question.
Let me explain a bit:

I've spent 35 yrs as field construction Boilermaker and pipe
fitter/welder. Now retired. I've had plenty of experience with the
`hold it in place and scribe' technique and am well aware of its
uses and benefits.

Now I'm old and partially crippled. I tinker almost exclusively by
myself. I wanted to just set the saw to an angle and start cutting.

No drama, no fuss. I'm pretty sure this angle of cut can be
established before hand with a light weight calculation of some kind.
I'd hoped someone here would know it.

Danny Boy <[email protected]> writes:

> You have tables of compound angles available, just handed to you. So
> use them. There's nothing wrong with that either, and you don't need a
> helper with the shakes. You just need to know how to read. My father

What table was handed to me?... That flew right over my thick skull.

"Wood Butcher" <[email protected]> writes:

> What's your issue with a 'helper'? A clamp is a 'helper'. Even a
> pile of rocks can be a 'helper'. It would seem that you made the
> bad assumption that a helper had to be the live kind.

A reply with an answer is a `helper'. A reply with an answer to some
other question is a waste of bandwidth.

> You're not safe in your assumption about me not knowing the
> mathematical answer either. With degrees in electrical engineering
> I'm no stranger to this kind of basic math. It just isn't necessary
> to solve the problem.

Anyone who has ever rubbed two sticks together knows how to hold in
position and set a bevel. Why would you jump in with advice so time
worn and obvious? Had you actually read the post, which asked for a
`mathmatical' solution, you might have just not replied since even with
your numerous degrees, you don't seem to have a clue how it would be
ascertained.

"Wood Butcher" <[email protected]> writes:

> Perhaps you could condescend and be so kind as to dispense with the
> arrogance and share some of your masterful woodworking wisdom with
> this group?

Did you have a question?

Harry Putnam <[email protected]> writes:

> No drama, no fuss. I'm pretty sure this angle of cut can be
> established before hand with a light weight calculation of some kind.
> I'd hoped someone here would know it.

Egad I was making this way to complicated.
Its a no brainer almost if you look at drawing of my frame.

Its just the other end of the known angle.

The Angle I was after is whats left after subtracting the known angle
from 90....

78.68 dg of slope and the top needs to be cut at 11.32dg to remain
flat when assembled.

patriarch <[email protected]> writes:

>
> You got at least one good answer. It's worked for years. You want more,
> get a hold of a good book on classic Chinese joinery.

Whoa Bubba... I think you missed the smiley.

"Wood Butcher" <[email protected]> writes:

[...]
> Forget about the math.
> Think. WWRD?
>
> Have a helper hold the joint together while you adjust a bevel
> gauge to the angle that the 2x4 is leaning. Transfer this angle to
> your saw.

The operative word here is `helper'

patriarch <[email protected]> writes:

[...]
> WWRD? = What would Roy do?
>
"Wood Butcher" <[email protected]> writes:

> Bingo! Maybe I should trademark that one if nobody else has already
> laid claim to it.

"Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> writes:
> Exactly! I was born with a head for math (no fault of mine <g>) and have
> successfully vanquished many an equation with enough Greek symbols to start
> a library. But in woodworking my bevel gauge is my constant friend. Who
> cares how Einstein would have done it? Set the bevel, draw the line, cut
> it, and finish it. ;-)

So can I safely assume you guys don't know? : )