I just bought a Penn State DC3-5XL. The web site says it has an 18a motor,
but the motor says it is 16a. I have asked PS about it, but they are
ignoring me.
Is this something to get upset about (stopping payment on my charge unless
they do something (what?) about it) or is it a meaningless numbers game that
I should ignore?
I measured the amps with nothing on it as 8a, and completely blocked as 6a.
When is it 18 or 16a?
I know my 17a table saw draws 4a with no load, but it draws 80a to start;
while the DC motor only draws 38a to start, which makes me think it is much
much smaller.
My other complain is that the power cord is is only 16 gauge. I guess that
is fine if it only draws 8a, but a real problem if it ever draws the claimed
16 or 18a.
Side issue; it is a single bag unit. Can I mount it on the wall with the
bag below the blower. I have asked PS a couple times about this, but they
do not reply.
I have found that most "specifications" in consumer woodworking tools of
that type are largely bogus because they have nothing to do with the
real-world shop environment. They're not even useful for comparison.
Spend some time on Bill Pentz's dust-collection web site and get informed.
It's at:
http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/Index.cfm
I am now producing a kit cyclone based on Bill's designs. It is a
collaborative effort between the two of us to benefit woodworkers who
want quality results without having to try to evaluate the reliability
or dependability of the supplier. A customer recently posted his
experience with the kit at
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?threadid=5220
FWIW,
Clarke
Toller wrote:
>
> I just bought a Penn State DC3-5XL. The web site says it has an 18a motor,
> but the motor says it is 16a. I have asked PS about it, but they are
> ignoring me.
>
> Is this something to get upset about (stopping payment on my charge unless
> they do something (what?) about it) or is it a meaningless numbers game that
> I should ignore?
>
> I measured the amps with nothing on it as 8a, and completely blocked as 6a.
> When is it 18 or 16a?
> I know my 17a table saw draws 4a with no load, but it draws 80a to start;
> while the DC motor only draws 38a to start, which makes me think it is much
> much smaller.
>
> My other complain is that the power cord is is only 16 gauge. I guess that
> is fine if it only draws 8a, but a real problem if it ever draws the claimed
> 16 or 18a.
>
> Side issue; it is a single bag unit. Can I mount it on the wall with the
> bag below the blower. I have asked PS a couple times about this, but they
> do not reply.
Doug Miller wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >It is advertised as a 1.5hp, and it says 1.5hp; but I have seen other dust
> >collectors (HF..) that claimed to be 1.5hp, but were 12a.
>
> That's plausible: 12A at 120V = 1440W (watts), theoretically almost 2HP. (1HP
> = 745.7W) A motor consuming 12A at 75% efficiency would deliver 1080W, or
> about 1.45HP.
The electrical engineer contributes:
If you have a resistive load (incandescent light bulbs, for example),
amps times volts = watts, and 745 watts is close enough to 1 HP. However,
when you have an electric motor, the load becomes inductive due to the
magnetic cores in the motor. That means that volts times amps ***AT
ANY INSTANT OF TIME*** is still watts, but there is a phase shift between
voltage and current; i.e., when voltage is at maximum, the current is not.
The power becomes the AC line voltage times the AC line current times the
***COSINE*** of the phase angle between the two. That cosine value is
known as _POWER FACTOR_, so a 5-HP motor that draws 20 amps at 240 VAC
(4800 watts = 6.43 HP) and has an electro-mechanical efficiency of 80%
would draw 5/0.8 HP worth of power from the line, or 6.25 HP. The
phase angle would then be that angle whose cosine is 6.25/6.43, or
13.6 degrees. The cosine of 13.6 degrees is 0.97, which means the motor
has a power factor of 0.97 or 97%.
This has nothing to do with duty factor
which is the percentage of time the motor can operate safely at full power
at a given ambient air temperature.
Clarke
>
> >My understanding
> >is that the amps is a better indication of the power than the HP, because HP
> >can be whatever they want to say it is.
>
> Unfortunately true, especially at Sears.
>
> >If it really is a 1.5hp motor, then I have no complaint; but I can't imagine
> >how to determine that.
>
> 16A at 120V = 1920W
> 1.5 HP = 1120W
> Getting 1.5HP out of a motor that consumes 16A is less than 60% efficiency.
>
> Sounds like you might actually have a 2HP motor. :-)
>
> --
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
It is advertised as a 1.5hp, and it says 1.5hp; but I have seen other dust
collectors (HF..) that claimed to be 1.5hp, but were 12a. My understanding
is that the amps is a better indication of the power than the HP, because HP
can be whatever they want to say it is.
If it really is a 1.5hp motor, then I have no complaint; but I can't imagine
how to determine that.
I have changed the motor to 240v, so the amps are cut in half and I am not
too concerned about the cord; more that it is bad sign that saved a few
cents by putting an unsafe cord on it.
"Leslie Gossett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What is the rated HP of the motor and what was it advertised as? Some
motors
> can deliver the same HP at a lower, or higher amperage. Motors are either
> rated in KW (European) or HP (USA) not in Amps. The amperage, 16 or 18 is
> the full load amperage rating of the motor. If the motor never actually
> reaches the rated amperage, that is a good thing! The 16 guage wire is
> probably too small even for a 16 amp motor. I wouldn't worry about the
> amperage if the HP is correct. I would change that cord though.
>
> Leslie
>
> --
> She's got tools, and she knows how to use them.
>
>
>
> "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I just bought a Penn State DC3-5XL. The web site says it has an 18a
> motor,
> > but the motor says it is 16a. I have asked PS about it, but they are
> > ignoring me.
> >
> > Is this something to get upset about (stopping payment on my charge
unless
> > they do something (what?) about it) or is it a meaningless numbers game
> that
> > I should ignore?
> >
> > I measured the amps with nothing on it as 8a, and completely blocked as
> 6a.
> > When is it 18 or 16a?
> > I know my 17a table saw draws 4a with no load, but it draws 80a to
start;
> > while the DC motor only draws 38a to start, which makes me think it is
> much
> > much smaller.
> >
> > My other complain is that the power cord is is only 16 gauge. I guess
> that
> > is fine if it only draws 8a, but a real problem if it ever draws the
> claimed
> > 16 or 18a.
> >
> > Side issue; it is a single bag unit. Can I mount it on the wall with
the
> > bag below the blower. I have asked PS a couple times about this, but
they
> > do not reply.
> >
> >
>
>
I too made > one < purchase from Penn State and couldn't get answers....I
didn't get bite twice...
Bob S.
"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I just bought a Penn State DC3-5XL. The web site says it has an 18a
motor,
> but the motor says it is 16a. I have asked PS about it, but they are
> ignoring me.
>
> Is this something to get upset about (stopping payment on my charge unless
> they do something (what?) about it) or is it a meaningless numbers game
that
> I should ignore?
>
> I measured the amps with nothing on it as 8a, and completely blocked as
6a.
> When is it 18 or 16a?
> I know my 17a table saw draws 4a with no load, but it draws 80a to start;
> while the DC motor only draws 38a to start, which makes me think it is
much
> much smaller.
>
> My other complain is that the power cord is is only 16 gauge. I guess
that
> is fine if it only draws 8a, but a real problem if it ever draws the
claimed
> 16 or 18a.
>
> Side issue; it is a single bag unit. Can I mount it on the wall with the
> bag below the blower. I have asked PS a couple times about this, but they
> do not reply.
>
>
Were your amp readings at 120, or 240 volts?
If you compare the same HP motor from 2 different MFG's, you will find
slightly different full load current ratings.
The RPM of the motor will also affect the current rating. Some motors are
more efficient then others, thus their current draw is more or less. Current
would indicate the rated HP of a motor if the RPM and efficiency was a
constant. But, there is a big margin.
Motors also have a rating which is called a service factor. This is
basically an indication of how long a motor will last if it operated at
maximim current for a long period of time. Machinery mfg's will take the
service factor into account if the motor is marginal for the application.
They could also de-rate a motor with a large service factor and label it
with a higher HP then the motor mfg intended. I have seen some motors on
foreign machinery which physically looked smaller then the US equivelent. I
have a lathe that originally had a 1/3 HP motor, but it looked more like a
1/4 if it were a US motor.
With woodworking machinery, it seems thats HP is more of an opinion then
anything else.
It doesn't sound like you got ripped-off, maybe they changed motor mfg's
along the way.
--
She's got tools, and she knows how to use them.
"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It is advertised as a 1.5hp, and it says 1.5hp; but I have seen other dust
> collectors (HF..) that claimed to be 1.5hp, but were 12a. My
understanding
> is that the amps is a better indication of the power than the HP, because
HP
> can be whatever they want to say it is.
> If it really is a 1.5hp motor, then I have no complaint; but I can't
imagine
> how to determine that.
>
> I have changed the motor to 240v, so the amps are cut in half and I am not
> too concerned about the cord; more that it is bad sign that saved a few
> cents by putting an unsafe cord on it.
>
> "Leslie Gossett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > What is the rated HP of the motor and what was it advertised as? Some
> motors
> > can deliver the same HP at a lower, or higher amperage. Motors are
either
> > rated in KW (European) or HP (USA) not in Amps. The amperage, 16 or 18
is
> > the full load amperage rating of the motor. If the motor never actually
> > reaches the rated amperage, that is a good thing! The 16 guage wire is
> > probably too small even for a 16 amp motor. I wouldn't worry about the
> > amperage if the HP is correct. I would change that cord though.
> >
> > Leslie
> >
> > --
> > She's got tools, and she knows how to use them.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > I just bought a Penn State DC3-5XL. The web site says it has an 18a
> > motor,
> > > but the motor says it is 16a. I have asked PS about it, but they are
> > > ignoring me.
> > >
> > > Is this something to get upset about (stopping payment on my charge
> unless
> > > they do something (what?) about it) or is it a meaningless numbers
game
> > that
> > > I should ignore?
> > >
> > > I measured the amps with nothing on it as 8a, and completely blocked
as
> > 6a.
> > > When is it 18 or 16a?
> > > I know my 17a table saw draws 4a with no load, but it draws 80a to
> start;
> > > while the DC motor only draws 38a to start, which makes me think it is
> > much
> > > much smaller.
> > >
> > > My other complain is that the power cord is is only 16 gauge. I guess
> > that
> > > is fine if it only draws 8a, but a real problem if it ever draws the
> > claimed
> > > 16 or 18a.
> > >
> > > Side issue; it is a single bag unit. Can I mount it on the wall with
> the
> > > bag below the blower. I have asked PS a couple times about this, but
> they
> > > do not reply.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
What is the rated HP of the motor and what was it advertised as? Some motors
can deliver the same HP at a lower, or higher amperage. Motors are either
rated in KW (European) or HP (USA) not in Amps. The amperage, 16 or 18 is
the full load amperage rating of the motor. If the motor never actually
reaches the rated amperage, that is a good thing! The 16 guage wire is
probably too small even for a 16 amp motor. I wouldn't worry about the
amperage if the HP is correct. I would change that cord though.
Leslie
--
She's got tools, and she knows how to use them.
"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I just bought a Penn State DC3-5XL. The web site says it has an 18a
motor,
> but the motor says it is 16a. I have asked PS about it, but they are
> ignoring me.
>
> Is this something to get upset about (stopping payment on my charge unless
> they do something (what?) about it) or is it a meaningless numbers game
that
> I should ignore?
>
> I measured the amps with nothing on it as 8a, and completely blocked as
6a.
> When is it 18 or 16a?
> I know my 17a table saw draws 4a with no load, but it draws 80a to start;
> while the DC motor only draws 38a to start, which makes me think it is
much
> much smaller.
>
> My other complain is that the power cord is is only 16 gauge. I guess
that
> is fine if it only draws 8a, but a real problem if it ever draws the
claimed
> 16 or 18a.
>
> Side issue; it is a single bag unit. Can I mount it on the wall with the
> bag below the blower. I have asked PS a couple times about this, but they
> do not reply.
>
>
that's no worse than when Delta began advertising that the X5 14" BS has
a resilient mounted motor! After doing some repeated checking, turns
out their ad department doesn't know the company's tools so well. Delta
admitted it is an "error". I told them they should update their
literature, but I don't think they really give a crap.
dave
Toller wrote:
> I just bought a Penn State DC3-5XL. The web site says it has an 18a motor,
> but the motor says it is 16a. I have asked PS about it, but they are
> ignoring me.
>
> Is this something to get upset about (stopping payment on my charge unless
> they do something (what?) about it) or is it a meaningless numbers game that
> I should ignore?
>
> I measured the amps with nothing on it as 8a, and completely blocked as 6a.
> When is it 18 or 16a?
> I know my 17a table saw draws 4a with no load, but it draws 80a to start;
> while the DC motor only draws 38a to start, which makes me think it is much
> much smaller.
>
> My other complain is that the power cord is is only 16 gauge. I guess that
> is fine if it only draws 8a, but a real problem if it ever draws the claimed
> 16 or 18a.
>
> Side issue; it is a single bag unit. Can I mount it on the wall with the
> bag below the blower. I have asked PS a couple times about this, but they
> do not reply.
>
>
In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>It is advertised as a 1.5hp, and it says 1.5hp; but I have seen other dust
>collectors (HF..) that claimed to be 1.5hp, but were 12a.
That's plausible: 12A at 120V = 1440W (watts), theoretically almost 2HP. (1HP
= 745.7W) A motor consuming 12A at 75% efficiency would deliver 1080W, or
about 1.45HP.
>My understanding
>is that the amps is a better indication of the power than the HP, because HP
>can be whatever they want to say it is.
Unfortunately true, especially at Sears.
>If it really is a 1.5hp motor, then I have no complaint; but I can't imagine
>how to determine that.
16A at 120V = 1920W
1.5 HP = 1120W
Getting 1.5HP out of a motor that consumes 16A is less than 60% efficiency.
Sounds like you might actually have a 2HP motor. :-)
--
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?