A customer called me today and said that the keeper for a lock that we
use for their showcases is screwed into the endgrain of the
particleboard. This connection is failing, they say.
I have my own opinion on this but I would like to know if my fellow
Wreckers think that there is any directionality to particleboard.
I already understand that this is made under a hot press, which
increases the density of the board on its face but, is there any
difference in holding power for a screw driven through the face v. the
edge?
I'm talking about a screw that goes into the board for 1-1/4".
Glad to hear an opinion.
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)
Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:22:55 -0500, the inscrutable "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> spake:
>
>
>>"BobK207" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>>MDF is made from wood fibers that are generated by breaking down wood
>>>chemically to the fiber level.
>>
>>Translation - termite shit.
>
>
> Answer to original question: Any given rectangular piece of
> particleboard has a total of -6- planes of endgrain. Feh!
Where some are less equal than others. :-)
>
>
--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
In article <[email protected]>, Chuck
Hoffman <[email protected]> wrote:
> There is no "grain" to particleboard, end or otherwise. It is made up of
> small, randomly oriented fragments of wood fiber (basically sawdust) in a
> resin binder.
Randomly oriented in three dimensions?
I think not.
They may be randomly oriented in the horizontal plane but they are
oriented horizontally in layers. Therefore, there is end grain.
As Paul sez, compare the paint sucking ability of edge vs face.
djb
--
"The thing about saying the wrong words is that A, I don't notice it, and B,
sometimes orange water gibbon bucket and plastic." -- Mr. Burrows
>>mdf/hdf/osb - all glue with a waste material
binder.
Particle board, MDF & OSB are all quite different products.; they all
have their uses. MDF has decent strength, machines well & accepts
paint well. It is not particle board but it isn't furniture grade
hardwood either.
Particle board is just that; made of wood particles; not much better
than coarse sawdust.
MDF is made from wood fibers that are generated by breaking down wood
chemically to the fiber level.
OSB is made from wood species that cannot be "peeled"; but can chipped
or flaked.
That said; the faces of all particle board, MDF & OSB are denser than
the edges, thus generating "end grain" or directionality behavior.
Source of info:
f2f discussion with APA wood specialists
cheers
Bob
A 1" board lstarts as a 24" mat of fibre pulp before compression so i
suggest if there is an endgrain it is the edge. So someone has put a
screw into the edge of a board. As to fixing the break up of said board
i use superglue thin and cramp flat before setting. The hole invariable
closes and insert screw again.
I don't like or use particle board.
Didn't like OSB too much until I did a fair amount of work with it
(shearwall testing); changed my opinion.
MDF id pretty good stuff; strong, machines well and paints up nice. I
use it a lot for shop garage cabinets / shelving.
MDF has 4 planes of "endgrain" but one can work around it.
cheers
Bob
On 2005-02-10, Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
> A customer called me today and said that the keeper for a lock that we
> use for their showcases is screwed into the endgrain of the
> particleboard. This connection is failing, they say.
[snip]
You DO have to use special screws in particle board. Take a look
at this first, then do a search on particle board in their search bar.
http://www.mcfeelys.com/multiple.asp?productID=9015-HD
I hate particle board - mdf/hdf/osb - all glue with a waste material
binder. Only place I use it is for the extension table on my
unisaw and on a couple of sliding tables for power tools.
--
I can find no modern furniture that is as well designed and emotionally
satisfying as that made by Gustav Stickley in the early years of the last
century.
On 2005-02-10, Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 10 Feb 2005 00:16:38 GMT, Ed Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
> If we accept modern as "last 100 years", then we've just missed the
> timeslot for a designer you'd surely agree was better than Stickley -
> Harvey Ellis. Looking at any of the "Gustav Stickley" designs the
> good stuff is Ellis', the lumpy ugly ones are Gustavs. Sadly the
> rarity of their sales was such that Gustav's are now rarer and more
> valuable.
>
> Although I do accept your general point, it's also a little unfair to
> some of the less well-known but equally skilled designers of recent
> years - some of whom are working very much in Stickley's (or Ellis')
> style itself.
The problem is that these designers don't have a factory behind them.
With no factory, they can never ever get into a "furniture store".
Therefore, for most Americans, they do not exist.
I'm tired of spending thousands of dollars (Henredon and others) on stuff
that is destined to end up at the curb on bulk trash day. From what I
can see as I pass through furniture stores, everything (mass market
oriented) is designed to be "temporary" and discarded as fashions
change next year.
Changed my sig...
--
I can find no modern furniture that is as well designed and emotionally
satisfying as that made by the Arts and Crafts movement in the early years
of the last century.
On 2005-02-10, Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:01:38 +0000, the inscrutable Andy Dingley
><[email protected]> spake:
>>Although I do accept your general point, it's also a little unfair to
>>some of the less well-known but equally skilled designers of recent
>>years - some of whom are working very much in Stickley's (or Ellis')
>>style itself.
>
> Yes, indeed. Harvey was Stickley's premier designer. Robert Lang just
> put out a book on his inlay work. I hope to be doing some of that in
> the near future, along with a few other projects.
Just found this site: http://www.arts-crafts.com when I was searching for
info on another bookcase ( Charles Limbert ). I've started digging up
lots of names because I bought a complete CD-ROM copy of "The Craftsman"
from 1901 through 1916 on eBay. This is the guy I bought it from:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4526387303
I discovered (much to my amazement) that William Morris the chair designer
also wrote a book that I enjoyed very much.
--
I can find no modern furniture that is as well designed and emotionally
satisfying as that made by the Arts and Crafts movement in the early years
of the last century.
On 2005-02-11, Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di> wrote:
> On 10 Feb 2005 23:53:33 GMT, the inscrutable Ed Clarke
>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4526387303
>
> Looks interesting. Is it worth the steep price? I have over a dozen
> very nice A&C books now, including 2 of Lang's Craftsman furniture
> books and the latest, "Shop Drawings for Craftsman Inlays & Hardware :
> Original Designs by Gustav Stickley and Harvey Ellis" (Shop Drawings
> series)
What you get is eight CD-ROMs with pdf files of each issue of "The
Craftsman". The files are searchable and printable with one exception.
The "Index" file is a modern compilation that includes the table of
contents of every issue and that is not printable except through some
contortions to defeat the no-print security flag.
This is not simply a bunch of plans; it includes things like an
essay by a stained glass worker complaining about how the customer
screws up the "art" and cheapens the product. "12th century stained
glass lasts 700 years exposed to the elements; modern stained glass
needs to be kept behind outer glass due to flimsyness of construction."
I notice a significant number of woman authors in the contents. I'd been
under the impression that women were kitchen dwellers or household
managers at that time (1901-1916). Guess I was wrong, at least in the
A&C community.
All in all, I'm glad that I spent the $50. I'm learning a lot, and not
just about woodworking.
--
I can find no modern furniture that is as well designed and emotionally
satisfying as that made by the Arts and Crafts movement in the early years
of the last century.
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:29:05 -0800, Fly-by-Night CC
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I think many of Limbert's
>designs are outstanding and set themselves apart from the Stickley's.
>The cutouts and gothic arches, I find very appealing
Limbert ?! I find their stuff indeed distinctive, but the random
arches and mad cutouts have more in common with '60s sub-Tolkien than
with the Gothic period.
Is there any truth in the rumour that the Seven Dwarves' house in
Disney's Snow White was furnished in Limbert designs ?
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:05:42 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email
>A customer called me today and said that the keeper for a lock that we
>use for their showcases is screwed into the endgrain of the
>particleboard. This connection is failing, they say.
>
>I have my own opinion on this but I would like to know if my fellow
>Wreckers think that there is any directionality to particleboard.
>I already understand that this is made under a hot press, which
>increases the density of the board on its face but, is there any
>difference in holding power for a screw driven through the face v. the
>edge?
Yes. The endgrain is far weaker for screw holding, both for pullout
and for movement sideways. That holds even more so if the screw is
pulling along the wood end, rather than across it. This gets
difficult, as I reckon the screw will start _loosening_ more easily
along the end, but will tear the wood to pieces across ways more
easily.
If the end is clamped between other wood (in a dado for instance) this
can change a lot.
On 10 Feb 2005 23:53:33 GMT, the inscrutable Ed Clarke
<[email protected]> spake:
>On 2005-02-10, Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di> wrote:
>> Yes, indeed. Harvey was Stickley's premier designer. Robert Lang just
>> put out a book on his inlay work. I hope to be doing some of that in
>> the near future, along with a few other projects.
>
>Just found this site: http://www.arts-crafts.com when I was searching for
>info on another bookcase ( Charles Limbert ). I've started digging up
>lots of names because I bought a complete CD-ROM copy of "The Craftsman"
>from 1901 through 1916 on eBay. This is the guy I bought it from:
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4526387303
Looks interesting. Is it worth the steep price? I have over a dozen
very nice A&C books now, including 2 of Lang's Craftsman furniture
books and the latest, "Shop Drawings for Craftsman Inlays & Hardware :
Original Designs by Gustav Stickley and Harvey Ellis" (Shop Drawings
series)
>I discovered (much to my amazement) that William Morris the chair designer
>also wrote a book that I enjoyed very much.
He was a prolific author. His fabric designs are still being
reproduced by Sanderson in GB. Lovely stuff going for a mere
$40 to $60/yd. <thud> http://www.sanderson-uk.com
--
STOP LIVING LIKE VEAL
-----------------------
http://diversify.com Veal-free Websites
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:05:42 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:
>A customer called me today and said that the keeper for a lock that we
>use for their showcases is screwed into the endgrain of the
>particleboard. This connection is failing, they say.
>
>I have my own opinion on this but I would like to know if my fellow
>Wreckers think that there is any directionality to particleboard.
>
>I already understand that this is made under a hot press, which
>increases the density of the board on its face but, is there any
>difference in holding power for a screw driven through the face v. the
>edge?
>
>I'm talking about a screw that goes into the board for 1-1/4".
>
>Glad to hear an opinion.
Physical Properties*
Density 45 lbs/cu ft
Internal Bond 80 psi
Modulus of Rupture 1900 psii
Modulus of Elasticity 340,000 psi
Screw Holding - Face 235 lbs
Screw Holding - Edge 180 lbs
*Physical properties tested by using method ASTM D 1037-91
http://www.collinswood.com/M1_WoodProducts/M1H4A1_Particleboard.html
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)
On 11 Feb 2005 15:36:13 GMT, the inscrutable Ed Clarke
<[email protected]> spake:
>>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4526387303
>What you get is eight CD-ROMs with pdf files of each issue of "The
>Craftsman". The files are searchable and printable with one exception.
>The "Index" file is a modern compilation that includes the table of
>contents of every issue and that is not printable except through some
>contortions to defeat the no-print security flag.
>
>This is not simply a bunch of plans; it includes things like an
>essay by a stained glass worker complaining about how the customer
>screws up the "art" and cheapens the product. "12th century stained
>glass lasts 700 years exposed to the elements; modern stained glass
>needs to be kept behind outer glass due to flimsyness of construction."
>
>I notice a significant number of woman authors in the contents. I'd been
>under the impression that women were kitchen dwellers or household
>managers at that time (1901-1916). Guess I was wrong, at least in the
>A&C community.
That's good! There have always been a few women artists, and
Elizabeth Eaton Burton has always been my favorite of those. Look for
her lamps and leather + hammered copper book covers. Outstanding!
>All in all, I'm glad that I spent the $50. I'm learning a lot, and not
>just about woodworking.
I wish they'd put out a paper version. I'd much rather read things
like that in their original format.
Thanks for the review, Ed.
--
Vidi, Vici, Veni
---
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:05:42 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:
>A customer called me today and said that the keeper for a lock that we
>use for their showcases is screwed into the endgrain of the
>particleboard. This connection is failing, they say.
>
>I have my own opinion on this but I would like to know if my fellow
>Wreckers think that there is any directionality to particleboard.
>
>I already understand that this is made under a hot press, which
>increases the density of the board on its face but, is there any
>difference in holding power for a screw driven through the face v. the
>edge?
>
>I'm talking about a screw that goes into the board for 1-1/4".
>
>Glad to hear an opinion.
>
>
>
>
>tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
>http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)
Wellll i gots my own thoughts on PB as well but we wont go into that!
lol.. :-]> as far as i can tell its all end grain! however screws do
seem to hold better into the face side. you absolutely must pre bore
it though as i'm sure you are aware. and glue the heel outta it too !
is there some way to incorporate real wood into the mix where the lock
is? just a thought.
skeez
I have see the presses that make this stuff and have learned the
manufacturing process. DAMW!
These boards are actually (usually) multi layered - again most boards
are 4 to 6 layers. (Fiber, resin, fiber, resin, fiber,resin, fiber -
then cook in the press - cookie sheet or continuous roller style) There
is "some orientation" of the fibers in particle board and fiber board.
Again - depends on the board and the manufacturer. Been through a lot of
plants... Never saw any that weren't like this - but somebody always
knows more. :-)
There is a normally a finer layer of fibers on the outside (face) of the
board (except -- I think -- on the very coarsest boards - the Oriented
Strand Board -- OSB style). My own experience is that screws hold better
on the face - not the ends. probably this is due to the press action and
a greater compression 90 deg. to the face of the board.
Next time you are in the lumber yard take a close look at the
construction of the different styles -- you should be able to see the
layers. MDF is usually the easiest to see the layering.
Just wear a dust mask when you cut that crud.
Tom Watson wrote:
> A customer called me today and said that the keeper for a lock that we
> use for their showcases is screwed into the endgrain of the
> particleboard. This connection is failing, they say.
>
> I have my own opinion on this but I would like to know if my fellow
> Wreckers think that there is any directionality to particleboard.
>
> I already understand that this is made under a hot press, which
> increases the density of the board on its face but, is there any
> difference in holding power for a screw driven through the face v. the
> edge?
>
> I'm talking about a screw that goes into the board for 1-1/4".
>
> Glad to hear an opinion.
>
>
>
>
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)
--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
"BobK207" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> MDF is made from wood fibers that are generated by breaking down wood
> chemically to the fiber level.
>
Translation - termite shit.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> Hell, some clown paid $150,000 for a Plymouth Satellite at a recent
> auction. That was a bad car in its day. But somebody wanted it THAT bad.
You have got to be kidding. I drove one of those in high school.
SteveP.
Robatoy wrote:
> even melamine. A client of mine cut 2' x 2' panels from PB and 'tiled'
> his workshop floor with them... he edgebanded each tile with 3/8" oak
> strips. 3 coats of Fabulon and it looks like cork. A great, cheap floor.
>
> ..ran out of tea...gone
>
> 0?0
>
> Rob
Any problem with moisture absorption? Was the oak just decorative, or ?
That would make a cheap floor covering.
Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Physical Properties*
> Density 45 lbs/cu ft
> Internal Bond 80 psi
> Modulus of Rupture 1900 psii
> Modulus of Elasticity 340,000 psi
> Screw Holding - Face 235 lbs
> Screw Holding - Edge 180 lbs
> *Physical properties tested by using method ASTM D 1037-91
>
>
> http://www.collinswood.com/M1_WoodProducts/M1H4A1_Particleboard.html
>
Just for my education, any idea of the screw holding capabilities of some
of the hardwoods you regularly use, measured in a similar manner?
Patriarch
There is no "grain" to particleboard, end or otherwise. It is made up of
small, randomly oriented fragments of wood fiber (basically sawdust) in a
resin binder. Threaded fasteners frequently fail in particleboard because
there is little structural integrity to the material.
The fix for your particular problem is to bore out the failed screw hole,
glue in a hardwood dowel, drill a pilot hole and reinstall the screw.
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> A customer called me today and said that the keeper for a lock that we
> use for their showcases is screwed into the endgrain of the
> particleboard. This connection is failing, they say.
>
> I have my own opinion on this but I would like to know if my fellow
> Wreckers think that there is any directionality to particleboard.
>
> I already understand that this is made under a hot press, which
> increases the density of the board on its face but, is there any
> difference in holding power for a screw driven through the face v. the
> edge?
>
> I'm talking about a screw that goes into the board for 1-1/4".
>
> Glad to hear an opinion.
>
>
>
>
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)
Tom Watson wrote:
>
> I have my own opinion on this but I would like to know if my fellow
> Wreckers think that there is any directionality to particleboard.
Well, particle board can refer to a variety of things but..
Considering the considerable difference in paint sucking ability of MDF
on its edge vrs. its face, I would have to say it is oriented in some
fashion.
For the sheet goods made of coarser chips, it is quite evident from
looking at it that the press process orients the chips "flat"; this
would indeed make it directional. This is probably true for MDF as well,
it is just harder to observe; anything composite made of non-symmetrical
bits would tend to exhibit this I would think.
OTOH, man-made materials is certainly not my field of expertise.
PK
In article <[email protected]>,
Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
[snip]
> If we accept modern as "last 100 years", then we've just missed the
> timeslot for a designer you'd surely agree was better than Stickley -
> Harvey Ellis. Looking at any of the "Gustav Stickley" designs the
> good stuff is Ellis', the lumpy ugly ones are Gustavs. Sadly the
> rarity of their sales was such that Gustav's are now rarer and more
> valuable.
I like the mission look and I have looked at Stickley's work up close.
Clean, simple lines. All the joints fit nicely. The finish seems durable.
But what is the big deal?
Allow me...
The big deal is that speculators and dealers got into the fray of
pushing the market of that stuff way over its value. Over 300 grand for
a frickin' desk? Say what? Did VanGogh paint the frickin' thing? Are
there diamond knobs on it? Did Rolex make the drawer tracks? Did Noah
joint the boards for the top? Gimme a break.
Because it is collectable doesn't make it great work or design.
Hell, some clown paid $150,000 for a Plymouth Satellite at a recent
auction. That was a bad car in its day. But somebody wanted it THAT bad.
>
> Although I do accept your general point, it's also a little unfair to
> some of the less well-known but equally skilled designers of recent
> years - some of whom are working very much in Stickley's (or Ellis')
> style itself.
Man, I couldn't agree more. I have seen WAY better guitar players in
bars that any of those on the top Bilboard 100. (Sliding OT here..but my
point is that just because they're high profile/mega buck stars does not
mean they have talent)
I have seen some excellent furniture from small shops all around Ohio,
Upstate NY, PA even in Ontario and Quebec. That goes for design and
execution of the craft.
A joint can only be made 'so' perfect. Design is in the eye of the
beholder and particularly pleasing if it functions well. And I cannot
recall when I saw a piece and thought it was beautifully made, but ugly.
Holy crap...look at the time..
GONE
0?0
Rob
In article <[email protected]>,
Bob G. <[email protected]> wrote:
> .
> >Because it is collectable doesn't make it great work or design.
> >Hell, some clown paid $150,000 for a Plymouth Satellite at a recent
> >auction. That was a bad car in its day. But somebody wanted it THAT bad.
> >>
>
> >Rob
>
> ============================
> .
>
> I also watched in amusement for what these cars sold for...
>
> I am an older lifelong "Car Freak" and have a 68 SS 396 Chevelle and
> 5 older Corvettes resting until spring in my garages right now...
>
[snip]
Ohh, don't get me wrong, I love a nice car as much as the next guy,
maybe even more. I'd drop 300 big ones on the right Bentley. TWO
problems though...the right Bentley would cost 5 times that and I don't
have 300 grand.
...
In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
[snipperectomy]
> I already understand that this is made under a hot press, which
> increases the density of the board on its face but, is there any
> difference in holding power for a screw driven through the face v. the
> edge?
Absolutely.
When I used to assemble case-goods, I used a 1/8" bradpoint bit in an
air-drill and then used a 2" #8 'LOWROOT' screw. Aggressive threads, but
skinny root. The drill bit is bigger than the root of the screw, even
then, the shit will split sometimes. Its 'end-grain' is like a stack of
wafers.... easily split apart.
The 'face grain', however, has the added benefit of there being much
more surrounding material to allow some lateral pressure from the
cutting screw threads. The particles are finer on the surface as well.
But don't count on that near the edge... for obvious reasons.
Let's face it... the only redeeming factor is that PB is flat and cheap.
A great material to use as a substrate for veneers and laminates and
even melamine. A client of mine cut 2' x 2' panels from PB and 'tiled'
his workshop floor with them... he edgebanded each tile with 3/8" oak
strips. 3 coats of Fabulon and it looks like cork. A great, cheap floor.
..ran out of tea...gone
0?0
Rob
In article <[email protected]>,
"Highland Pairos" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > Hell, some clown paid $150,000 for a Plymouth Satellite at a recent
> > auction. That was a bad car in its day. But somebody wanted it THAT bad.
>
> You have got to be kidding. I drove one of those in high school.
>
> SteveP.
>
>
Kidding about what? That some clown paid 150K or that it was a bad car?
*G*
The Barrett Jackson auction site will have more to say about it.
May have been a special engine/transmission combo...limited production?
Who knows?.... but 150 grand?? Hell, that's more money than all the
tools in the Festool catalogue!!!
150 grand?? That's an upgrade to my home theatre set-up...like a NEW
HOME!
In article <[email protected]>,
Rob Mitchell <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>
> > even melamine. A client of mine cut 2' x 2' panels from PB and 'tiled'
> > his workshop floor with them... he edgebanded each tile with 3/8" oak
> > strips. 3 coats of Fabulon and it looks like cork. A great, cheap floor.
> >
> > ..ran out of tea...gone
> >
> > 0?0
> >
> > Rob
>
> Any problem with moisture absorption? Was the oak just decorative, or ?
> That would make a cheap floor covering.
>
He had to finish the edges where the sheets were going to join in order
to control possible moisture. It was at that point he decided to cut the
sheets into smaller 'tiles' (making scribing and fitting a lot easier)
and the oak became decorative as well.
The floor is above grade. I called him and he told me that he put a
thick coat of Fabulon on the bottom of the tiles as well, then put it
down with construction adhesive. He said he got the idea from an article
(which he thinks) he saw in Fine Homebuilding some 10 years ago. The
floor looked great 2 years after he did the job, other than the usual
'knockabout' scuffing.
Maybe a search at Taunton's site?
0?0
Rob--->who thinks that the moisture issue would be about the same as an
edgebanded bookshelf as the floor is installed above grade.
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:05:42 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I already understand that this is made under a hot press,
Some is pressed, some is made through a roller process (usually lower
grades). The pressed stuff has faces and four edges, the rolled stuff
has variation between warp and weft edges as well.
MDF will take screws in an edge, if you pre-drill and use a parallel
threaded woodscrew (not a drywall or self-tapper). Chipboard
(particleboard) is garbage however you treat it.
I call it an "edge" rather than an "endgrain." In any event, there
are special screws for particleboard. I have had success using a
piano hinge (lots of small screws) to attach an MDF door. A screw
in the edge is more likely to fail than into a face due to more
support in the surrounding area.
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:05:42 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:
>A customer called me today and said that the keeper for a lock that we
>use for their showcases is screwed into the endgrain of the
>particleboard. This connection is failing, they say.
>
>I have my own opinion on this but I would like to know if my fellow
>Wreckers think that there is any directionality to particleboard.
>
>I already understand that this is made under a hot press, which
>increases the density of the board on its face but, is there any
>difference in holding power for a screw driven through the face v. the
>edge?
>
>I'm talking about a screw that goes into the board for 1-1/4".
>
>Glad to hear an opinion.
>
>
>
>
>tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
>http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:03:54 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>Physical Properties*
>Density 45 lbs/cu ft
>Internal Bond 80 psi
>Modulus of Rupture 1900 psii
>Modulus of Elasticity 340,000 psi
>Screw Holding - Face 235 lbs
>Screw Holding - Edge 180 lbs
>*Physical properties tested by using method ASTM D 1037-91
>
>
>http://www.collinswood.com/M1_WoodProducts/M1H4A1_Particleboard.html
>
>
>
>tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
>http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)
Tom, your data confirms my intuition but I'm surprised there isn't a
bigger difference in holding power.
TWS
.
>Because it is collectable doesn't make it great work or design.
>Hell, some clown paid $150,000 for a Plymouth Satellite at a recent
>auction. That was a bad car in its day. But somebody wanted it THAT bad.
>>
>Rob
============================
.
I also watched in amusement for what these cars sold for...
I am an older lifelong "Car Freak" and have a 68 SS 396 Chevelle and
5 older Corvettes resting until spring in my garages right now...
But the fact remains that the value of some cars when fully documented
and equipped the right way .....and ... stripped models that were
ordered from the factory with very high performance engines under
their hoods...etc... were equipped the right way... .
No I would not pay 150 big ones for the Satellite nor would I have
paid 350 big ones for the Chevelle that sold at the same auction..
these were very exceptional and rare cars that were offered for sale
at the right time to the right crowd...
I only wish that I could now Infer or say my Chevelle is worth 175 Big
ones because it is very similar to the one that sold for 350K....
heck 20K is much more like its true value...and even at that price it
would not sell in a day or two...
Bob Griffiths
On 10 Feb 2005 00:16:38 GMT, Ed Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>I can find no modern furniture that is as well designed and emotionally
>satisfying as that made by Gustav Stickley in the early years of the last
>century.
If we accept modern as "last 100 years", then we've just missed the
timeslot for a designer you'd surely agree was better than Stickley -
Harvey Ellis. Looking at any of the "Gustav Stickley" designs the
good stuff is Ellis', the lumpy ugly ones are Gustavs. Sadly the
rarity of their sales was such that Gustav's are now rarer and more
valuable.
Although I do accept your general point, it's also a little unfair to
some of the less well-known but equally skilled designers of recent
years - some of whom are working very much in Stickley's (or Ellis')
style itself.
In article <[email protected]>,
Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
> Limbert ?! I find their stuff indeed distinctive, but the random
> arches and mad cutouts have more in common with '60s sub-Tolkien than
> with the Gothic period.
Well I find both of these tables very attractive:
<http://www.treadwaygallery.com/ONLINECATALOGS/March2004/ACWEB/0037.jpg>
<http://www.treadwaygallery.com/ONLINECATALOGS/March2004/ACWEB/0034.jpg>
I'm planning on building a couple of the smaller ones (#34 jpg).
> Is there any truth in the rumour that the Seven Dwarves' house in
> Disney's Snow White was furnished in Limbert designs ?
Funny you should say that! The last couple times I've seen the movie (I
have a young daughter who plays her movies over and over and over), I
thought, "It would be so cool to have a house like that. The carved
door, owl stairs and everything."
--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long
In article <[email protected]>,
Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
> >I notice a significant number of woman authors in the contents. I'd been
> >under the impression that women were kitchen dwellers or household
> >managers at that time (1901-1916). Guess I was wrong, at least in the
> >A&C community.
>
> That's good! There have always been a few women artists, and
> Elizabeth Eaton Burton has always been my favorite of those. Look for
> her lamps and leather + hammered copper book covers. Outstanding!
I'm always a bit surprised at the number of women who influenced
history. We've been taught that men did everything and women stayed home
to raise kids and run the house but it just wasn't true. There were many
women involved outside the home in the A&C movement and history in
general- not just laborers, but real innovators and influential. Names
escape me at the moment, but I know I've read at least a few instances
of women running companies plus taking over ownership when their
husbands died. Just fer instance, Charles R. Makintosh's wife was a
designer in her own right and they partnered with another husband and
wife couple in Glasgow. I don't remember her name because the sexism, at
that time and since, has generated more recognition for her husband. Sad
really.
--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long
In article <[email protected]>,
Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
> If we accept modern as "last 100 years", then we've just missed the
> timeslot for a designer you'd surely agree was better than Stickley -
> Harvey Ellis. Looking at any of the "Gustav Stickley" designs the
> good stuff is Ellis', the lumpy ugly ones are Gustavs. Sadly the
> rarity of their sales was such that Gustav's are now rarer and more
> valuable.
>
> Although I do accept your general point, it's also a little unfair to
> some of the less well-known but equally skilled designers of recent
> years - some of whom are working very much in Stickley's (or Ellis')
> style itself.
Of the mass market manufacturers of the time, I think many of Limbert's
designs are outstanding and set themselves apart from the Stickley's.
The cutouts and gothic arches, I find very appealing. I would agree with
Ellis' designs too - especially the beautiful inlay pieces.
The Roycrofters is a puzzler to me - they branded almost all of their
furniture with a big ol' Roycroft logo right on the very front. Signing
one's work is one thing, but sheesh.
Of course, as I'm sure you know, the A&C movement was all about honoring
the individual artisan and craftsman and rejecting the factory clones
brought about by industrialization of the late Victorian era. It was
about purposeful design and not merely because the technology to stamp
out thousands of copies of an intricate design by machine was now
possible. (Just because one can do something doesn't mean it adds value
to the end product.) The irony is that the very movement that honored
the skill of the individual was appropriated by mass production
factories wherein the worker was just an operator of a machine.
--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:01:38 +0000, the inscrutable Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> spake:
>On 10 Feb 2005 00:16:38 GMT, Ed Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I can find no modern furniture that is as well designed and emotionally
>>satisfying as that made by Gustav Stickley in the early years of the last
>>century.
>
>If we accept modern as "last 100 years", then we've just missed the
>timeslot for a designer you'd surely agree was better than Stickley -
>Harvey Ellis. Looking at any of the "Gustav Stickley" designs the
>good stuff is Ellis', the lumpy ugly ones are Gustavs. Sadly the
>rarity of their sales was such that Gustav's are now rarer and more
>valuable.
I saw quite a few Stickley and Ellis/Stickley repros in Anchorage, AK
when I was there a couple years ago. I just love Ellis' stuff!
>Although I do accept your general point, it's also a little unfair to
>some of the less well-known but equally skilled designers of recent
>years - some of whom are working very much in Stickley's (or Ellis')
>style itself.
Yes, indeed. Harvey was Stickley's premier designer. Robert Lang just
put out a book on his inlay work. I hope to be doing some of that in
the near future, along with a few other projects.
--
STOP LIVING LIKE VEAL
-----------------------
http://diversify.com Veal-free Websites
"Chuck Hoffman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> There is no "grain" to particleboard, end or otherwise. It is made up of
> small, randomly oriented fragments of wood fiber (basically sawdust) in a
> resin binder. Threaded fasteners frequently fail in particleboard because
> there is little structural integrity to the material.
>
> The fix for your particular problem is to bore out the failed screw hole,
> glue in a hardwood dowel, drill a pilot hole and reinstall the screw.
>
...or maybe, glue the dowel at right angles to the screw. A screw into the
endgrain of most any wood is a weak attachment. This is a picture of
something I did last summer rebuilding a desk. The pine serves as a
substrate for a quarter inch oak plywood top glued to the substrate. I
drilled the holes 5/8" with a Forstner bit and used hardwood dowels. Also I
used pocket screws predrilled through the oak trim on the desk edge. The
screw holes were then plugged with matching oak. Of course, I realize that
my suggestion just might not be feasible for this particular problem.
http://home.mchsi.com/~lhote5/deskedge.jpg
Larry
--
Lawrence L'Hote
Columbia, MO
www.llhote.com
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:22:55 -0500, the inscrutable "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> spake:
>
>"BobK207" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> MDF is made from wood fibers that are generated by breaking down wood
>> chemically to the fiber level.
>
>Translation - termite shit.
Answer to original question: Any given rectangular piece of
particleboard has a total of -6- planes of endgrain. Feh!
--
STOP LIVING LIKE VEAL
-----------------------
http://diversify.com Veal-free Websites
Ed Clarke wrote:
> On 2005-02-10, Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:01:38 +0000, the inscrutable Andy Dingley
>><[email protected]> spake:
>
>
>
>>>Although I do accept your general point, it's also a little unfair to
>>>some of the less well-known but equally skilled designers of recent
>>>years - some of whom are working very much in Stickley's (or Ellis')
>>>style itself.
>>
>>Yes, indeed. Harvey was Stickley's premier designer. Robert Lang just
>>put out a book on his inlay work. I hope to be doing some of that in
>>the near future, along with a few other projects.
>
>
> Just found this site: http://www.arts-crafts.com when I was searching for
> info on another bookcase ( Charles Limbert ). I've started digging up
> lots of names because I bought a complete CD-ROM copy of "The Craftsman"
> from 1901 through 1916 on eBay. This is the guy I bought it from:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4526387303
>
> I discovered (much to my amazement) that William Morris the chair designer
> also wrote a book that I enjoyed very much.
>
Morris wrote a lot more than one book! He was a 19th Century polymath
who designed everything from furniture to fabrics and wrote books from
fiction to poetry to books on design.
Find some more of his stuff. You're likely to be astonished at his range
and inspired by his thoughts on design.
--RC