"Tom Watson" In a well written rant said:
>Most of the people who do the making and baking - the hunting and
>fishing - the child raising and life making - the saving and the
>scraping to get by - don't live in urban areas.
Sorry Tom, you are incorrect.
Urban areas do define the course of a country. People thought history have
congregated with others.
They gather to make a living, shop, worship, govern, work in areas like
manufacturing, shipping and the like. Where does the farmer or rancher sell
their efforts? Where in modern history has a rural people forced a nation or
people to change? Governments are permitted to exist by the urban people.
A staggering 80% of the country lives in a urban area. (Source
http://tinyurl.com/2z58g ) The important things are simple. Parents are,
and should be, the ones trusted with the responsibility to raise their
children to become good the future leaders, solid citizens with a solid
moral base. And, importantly, to become future parents and leaders.
We [as parents] do have more influence than we think. How many times have
you asked, "How could any parent let their kid out of the house
looking/dressed like that!" The young girls with the short shirts that
remind me of a roll of busted poppin' fresh dough. Spiked hair, pants
hanging half way down their butts, ect. Will these kids grow to govern us?
We have the responsibility to teach and guide them down a different path
than the correct path.
Tom also said...
>People in urban areas don't hold the same values as those who live
>outside those areas. They never have - and they never will.
>There are still vast areas of this country where a man's word is his
>bond - won't see that much on TV. There are still huge sectors of our
>country where a neighbor will be helped out of common human decency -
>but I don't see that reflected in that media mirror.
Although this may have some modicum of truth, the entertainment/news
industry does what every other business does, sell its product. It is the
height of naivetivity to think that a small group will ever stop the making
of such fine film classics as "Chain saw..., ect." You and for the most
part I, do not like what is on local television. Yet they sell their
product day after day because more people watch than don't. If everyone in
the all of the rural areas stopped watching or going to the movies, they
would still prosper.
I live in a suburb of Los Angeles. I hunt, fish, build things and have
raised my children to become a strong part of society. I work to earn an
income to support my family. I employ many others so they can raise their
families. I sell products people need and want. I provide a service that
people need in our society. I don't believe that my moral outrage towards
the what I believe are the degenerate segments of our combined cultures
provides me the right to disallow them, only the right to educate my family
and the people in my sphere of influence as to the direction I believe is
correct.
I and a staggering number of urbanites do hold the same set of values as
those who by choice or circumstance live in rural areas. It is only in
ignorance or arrogance that you and other ruralities believe you are alone
sit atop the moral mountain.
Tom finished by saying...
>I still meet good people - and I meet them in all kinds of places - but the
>culture (writ large) that I live in - doesn't give them the respect or
>encouragement that they deserve. This saddens me greatly.
Cheer up Tom, you could have been born in a country that is under the
scourge of a repressive government, or one that prohibits free expression of
religion or one that can not even provide you with clean water or one that
by law, limits the number and sex of your children or one that murder, rape
and kidnapping are not just headlines but a way of life or one that the put
you in the position of considering, will I be able to feed my children
today?
Dave
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Ass-backwards. They brought firewood to the city because that's where the
buyers were, they didn't cluster in the city because they brought firewood
there. Didn't have to "distribute" it to the boondocks, they had their own.
Then, as many US historians have mentioned, there's corn. Tough to get to
market in bulk over a trail, but easy if you feed it to livestock which
walks or distill into high-value compact whiskey.
"Urban Sprawl" is the direction the US took. You and Rifkin need to look
overhead at those towers delivering electricity everywhere. If you still
don't believe, get into your automobile (alone, like everyone else) and
drive along the ever-increasing road web to what used to be country. There
you will discover single-family dwellings everywhere, and the occasional
metal-sided industrial facility built on cheaper, less-regulated land using
electricity delivered by those same wires, and goods delivered over those
same roads by those trucks you're dodging. You might even cross an
abandoned railroad right-of-way or puzzle over the remains of an old dock on
a modest bridged stream.
"J.B. Bobbitt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jeremy Rifkin, in his book "The Hydrogen Economy" points out that people
> began to cluster together in cities because of the way that commodities,
in
> particular bio-fuels and fossil fuels, were distributed. The energy
> supplies were brought to central location (a port, an overland trade
route,
> &tc.), and distributed from there. It was just esier to live close by,
> hence high-density population centers.
>
> An interesting corollary is that, if we could produce energy at
> decentralized locations (e.g. wind, hydrogen fuel cells, etc.), it
wouldn't
> make sense to live in high-density centers; we could spread out.
>
> -JBB
>
>
Jeremy Rifkin, in his book "The Hydrogen Economy" points out that people
began to cluster together in cities because of the way that commodities, in
particular bio-fuels and fossil fuels, were distributed. The energy
supplies were brought to central location (a port, an overland trade route,
&tc.), and distributed from there. It was just esier to live close by,
hence high-density population centers.
An interesting corollary is that, if we could produce energy at
decentralized locations (e.g. wind, hydrogen fuel cells, etc.), it wouldn't
make sense to live in high-density centers; we could spread out.
-JBB
On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 11:45:20 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>
>and for another view on country living....
>
>
>(Warren Zevon)
>Grandpa pissed his pants again
>He don't give a damn
>Brother Billy has both guns drawn
>He ain't been right since Viet Nam
>"Sweet Home Alabama"
>Play that dead band's song
>Turn those speakers up full blast
>Play it all night long
>Daddy's doing Sister Sally
>Grandma's dying of cancer now
>The cattle all have brucellosis
>We'll get through somehow
>"Sweet Home Alabama"
>Play that dead band's song
>Turn those speakers up full blast
>Play it all night long
>I'm going down to the Dew Drop Inn
>See if I can drink enough
>There ain't much to country living
>Sweat, piss, jizz and blood
>"Sweet Home Alabama"
>Play that dead band's song
>Turn those speakers up full blast
>Play it all night long
And yet another view:
Walking along the hedgerow watching a Coyote lope across the adjoining field.
Sitting with a hot cup of coffee watching Deer bound through the yard.
Searching the driveway to find the nest the Killdeer build in the driveway every year so you won't run over their eggs and enjoying
her antics when you walk past the nest on your way to the mailbox. (The eggs look just like the rocks in our driveway and are
devilishly hard to spot!)
Being scared out of two years growth by Quail flying up from the fence row as you mow the grass.
Pheasants running across the road or flying up from the ditch as you drive to the BORG.
Sitting in the grove of Honey Locust simply because they smell so good.
Seeing a (herd?, covey?, flock?) of Wild Turkey feeding in the stubble.
Watching a pair of Mallard Ducks raise a family in the lagoon every year. (Did you know that Mallard hens do the same "wounded bird"
trick as Killdeer when they feel their ducklings are threatened? I didn't and thought she was actually injured.)
Listening to the Mockingbirds.
Watching a Hawk soar the thermals.
Challenging an Opossum for possession of the patio.
Juvenile Cottontails browsing the grass near your feet.
And on, and on. Sorry, no rhyming. I'm not a poet, but I wouldn't voluntarily choose anything over "country living".
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA
Just to add my experiences on country living.
20 years ago I found a nice parcel 1 1/2 miles from the main road, situated
at the end of a private road. Only about 10 of the 36 parcels were occupied.
Peace, beauty and security were enjoyed.
Slowly others from the cities moved in to all the remaining parcels. Now
they all install alarm systems, Some have barred their windows, lock their
doors and vehicles. Night-lights dot the evening landscape. Strangers
frequent the area. One newcomer who bought a house just 10 feet from the
road, installed speed bumps because he feared speeding cars. Litter is
frequently tossed from cars entering or leaving. Fencing along the narrow
road edges has appeared. All the drivers you meet on the one lane areas
assumes the 'right-of-way. No trespassing signs prevail. Shots are heard
after dark and the deer are becoming scarce.
Why do they leave the city ?
--
Chipper Wood
useours, yours won't work
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Veatch writes:
>
> snip of great country experiences
>
> >Watching a pair of Mallard Ducks raise a family in the lagoon every year.
> >(Did you know that Mallard hens do the same "wounded bird"
> >trick as Killdeer when they feel their ducklings are threatened? I didn't
and
> >thought she was actually injured.)
> >
> >Listening to the Mockingbirds.
> >
> >Watching a Hawk soar the thermals.
> >
> >Challenging an Opossum for possession of the patio.
> >
> >Juvenile Cottontails browsing the grass near your feet.
> >
> >And on, and on. Sorry, no rhyming. I'm not a poet, but I wouldn't
voluntarily
> >choose anything over "country living".
Tom Veatch writes:
snip of great country experiences
>Watching a pair of Mallard Ducks raise a family in the lagoon every year.
>(Did you know that Mallard hens do the same "wounded bird"
>trick as Killdeer when they feel their ducklings are threatened? I didn't and
>thought she was actually injured.)
>
>Listening to the Mockingbirds.
>
>Watching a Hawk soar the thermals.
>
>Challenging an Opossum for possession of the patio.
>
>Juvenile Cottontails browsing the grass near your feet.
>
>And on, and on. Sorry, no rhyming. I'm not a poet, but I wouldn't voluntarily
>choose anything over "country living".
I agree, with a proviso: I sometimes think that a couple of years of true city
living is a great thing for a young person. I had mine in New York many years
ago, and a similar experience may be impossible in today's world, which would
be unfortunate. 85 bucks a week working for a tiny ad agency, $2 cover charge
to sit at Gerde's Folk City and listen to all the big, and small, names as that
trend was rising to the surface (including Victoria's Secret's Bob Dylan),
riding on the Staten Island ferry to take a girlfriend home, walking in Central
Park at midnight (yeah, yeah, I know this is impossible without a squad now,
but 41 years ago, a single former Marine could amble through without problems),
walking up Park Avenue and watching the rich people glow in their own minds,
doing all the other things youngsters do and adding in mostly free access to
many of the world's greatest museums...cheap twofers on and off Broadway, and
on.
Charlie Self
"Adam and Eve had many advantages but the principal one was that they escaped
teething." Mark Twain
On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 01:45:36 GMT, "J.B. Bobbitt"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Jeremy Rifkin, in his book "The Hydrogen Economy" points out that people
>began to cluster together in cities because of the way that commodities, in
>particular bio-fuels and fossil fuels, were distributed. The energy
>supplies were brought to central location (a port, an overland trade route,
>&tc.), and distributed from there. It was just esier to live close by,
>hence high-density population centers.
>
>An interesting corollary is that, if we could produce energy at
>decentralized locations (e.g. wind, hydrogen fuel cells, etc.), it wouldn't
>make sense to live in high-density centers; we could spread out.
>
>-JBB
>
also interesting... that technology will be developed in densely
populated areas, probably ones with large universities....
Not the case but it fits his theme. Cities formed because that is were the
work was.
"J.B. Bobbitt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jeremy Rifkin, in his book "The Hydrogen Economy" points out that people
> began to cluster together in cities because of the way that commodities,
in
> particular bio-fuels and fossil fuels, were distributed. The energy
> supplies were brought to central location (a port, an overland trade
route,
> &tc.), and distributed from there. It was just esier to live close by,
> hence high-density population centers.
>
> An interesting corollary is that, if we could produce energy at
> decentralized locations (e.g. wind, hydrogen fuel cells, etc.), it
wouldn't
> make sense to live in high-density centers; we could spread out.
>
> -JBB
>
>
"J.B. Bobbitt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jeremy Rifkin, in his book "The Hydrogen Economy" points out that people
> began to cluster together in cities because of the way that commodities,
in
> particular bio-fuels and fossil fuels, were distributed. The energy
> supplies were brought to central location (a port, an overland trade
route,
> &tc.), and distributed from there. It was just esier to live close by,
> hence high-density population centers.
>
> An interesting corollary is that, if we could produce energy at
> decentralized locations (e.g. wind, hydrogen fuel cells, etc.), it
wouldn't
> make sense to live in high-density centers; we could spread out.
>
> -JBB
>
i would think it was for defense and food distribution. cities came about
long before fuels were distributed.
On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 11:37:41 -0700, "TeamCasa" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"Tom Watson" In a well written rant said:
>>Most of the people who do the making and baking - the hunting and
>>fishing - the child raising and life making - the saving and the
>>scraping to get by - don't live in urban areas.
>
>
>Sorry Tom, you are incorrect.
Yeah, my wife says the same thing - almost every day.
>
>Urban areas do define the course of a country. People thought history have
>congregated with others.
>They gather to make a living, shop, worship, govern, work in areas like
>manufacturing, shipping and the like. Where does the farmer or rancher sell
>their efforts? Where in modern history has a rural people forced a nation or
>people to change? Governments are permitted to exist by the urban people.
>
>A staggering 80% of the country lives in a urban area. (Source
>http://tinyurl.com/2z58g )
I think that there must be a sociological concept akin to that of
critical mass in nuclear physics. Once you get beyond a certain
population density, things begin to go wrong quickly. Once a local
population has reached the level where anonymous interactions are
typical - the social compact goes all to hell.
>The important things are simple. Parents are,
>and should be, the ones trusted with the responsibility to raise their
>children to become good the future leaders, solid citizens with a solid
>moral base. And, importantly, to become future parents and leaders.
>
>We [as parents] do have more influence than we think. How many times have
>you asked, "How could any parent let their kid out of the house
>looking/dressed like that!" The young girls with the short shirts that
>remind me of a roll of busted poppin' fresh dough. Spiked hair, pants
>hanging half way down their butts, ect. Will these kids grow to govern us?
>We have the responsibility to teach and guide them down a different path
>than the correct path.
Agreed.
>
>
>Tom also said...
>>People in urban areas don't hold the same values as those who live
>>outside those areas. They never have - and they never will.
>
>>There are still vast areas of this country where a man's word is his
>>bond - won't see that much on TV. There are still huge sectors of our
>>country where a neighbor will be helped out of common human decency -
>>but I don't see that reflected in that media mirror.
>
>
>Although this may have some modicum of truth, the entertainment/news
>industry does what every other business does, sell its product. It is the
>height of naivetivity to think that a small group will ever stop the making
>of such fine film classics as "Chain saw..., ect." You and for the most
>part I, do not like what is on local television. Yet they sell their
>product day after day because more people watch than don't. If everyone in
>the all of the rural areas stopped watching or going to the movies, they
>would still prosper.
Their prosperity is not my concern. The fact that the media is a
reflection of an urban outlook on life is my concern.
>
>I live in a suburb of Los Angeles. I hunt, fish, build things and have
>raised my children to become a strong part of society. I work to earn an
>income to support my family. I employ many others so they can raise their
>families. I sell products people need and want. I provide a service that
>people need in our society. I don't believe that my moral outrage towards
>the what I believe are the degenerate segments of our combined cultures
>provides me the right to disallow them, only the right to educate my family
>and the people in my sphere of influence as to the direction I believe is
>correct.
I applaud your efforts. I deplore the obstacles that geography has
put in your path.
>
>I and a staggering number of urbanites do hold the same set of values as
>those who by choice or circumstance live in rural areas. It is only in
>ignorance or arrogance that you and other ruralities believe you are alone
>sit atop the moral mountain.
I only wish that it was a mountain. It is more like a sea. We are
not sitting above anything but would like to keep our area of the sea
free from certain effluents. Given the interactive nature of a sea -
this is extremely difficult.
>
>Tom finished by saying...
>>I still meet good people - and I meet them in all kinds of places - but the
>>culture (writ large) that I live in - doesn't give them the respect or
>>encouragement that they deserve. This saddens me greatly.
>
>Cheer up Tom, you could have been born in a country that is under the
>scourge of a repressive government, or one that prohibits free expression of
>religion or one that can not even provide you with clean water or one that
>by law, limits the number and sex of your children or one that murder, rape
>and kidnapping are not just headlines but a way of life or one that the put
>you in the position of considering, will I be able to feed my children
>today?
One litterbox at a time.
>
>Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
>http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
>---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret)
Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
Website: http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
and for another view on country living....
(Warren Zevon)
Grandpa pissed his pants again
He don't give a damn
Brother Billy has both guns drawn
He ain't been right since Viet Nam
"Sweet Home Alabama"
Play that dead band's song
Turn those speakers up full blast
Play it all night long
Daddy's doing Sister Sally
Grandma's dying of cancer now
The cattle all have brucellosis
We'll get through somehow
"Sweet Home Alabama"
Play that dead band's song
Turn those speakers up full blast
Play it all night long
I'm going down to the Dew Drop Inn
See if I can drink enough
There ain't much to country living
Sweat, piss, jizz and blood
"Sweet Home Alabama"
Play that dead band's song
Turn those speakers up full blast
Play it all night long