Does a Domino make a Mortise & Tenon joint?

"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
>> And, yes, the chairs are sturdy. Sometimes you just need to cut wide
>> slots and make bigger tenons and/or double up.
>>
>> Thanks!"
>> =====
>>
>> I'm on the fence on this one.
>
> Yes they are mortise and tenon but that is a floating tenon. In many
> cases that is NOT as strong in the long run as a true pinned tenon
> joint. The chairs are sturdy today but after 100 years of racking if
> they don'y have a pin through each side they are not 100% the same as
> what one would expect from mortise and tenon.
>

I would certainly think that after 100 years of racking that a pin through
the tennon would be worn out also. I don't buy that a pinned tennon makes a
mortise and tennon significantly stronger unless no glue is being used.

> All valid points however.... =A0What makes the pin "itself" rot, wear, or
> break proof. =A0The pin is surely weaker than the wood that makes the ten=
non,
> if the tenon wears, the pin has to have worn to allow the tennon to move =
and
> wear.
>
> I will give the pin =A0the nod to perhaps helping a failed joint last 1%
> longer until the pin fails also.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Never said pin won't rot. Said pinned joint is stronger than non
pinned joint, especially in the long run. Thanks for agreeing.

> Now if you were to say it was a Hand Cut mortise and tenon joint
> and you used a power tool to cut the mortise or tenon - Hand Cut
> would be deceptive.

Agreed. There is a tendency (and I have it) to look at dovetail joints
and automatically think of them as high craftsmanship. I know that
most are done by a jig and router and not by a saw and chisel.

I think the same applies to the Domino. You can say it is a mortise
and tenon joint, but not equivalent to one that is handcrafted.

MJ

>
> Please reference my original and simple point that an unpinned joint
> is not 100% as strong as a pinned joint and don't take the argument
> off on some tangent just to find a supporting point, which seems ro be
> difficult... slice!

OK, maybe I'm wrong... sorta.

This study http://www.agriculture.purdue.edu/fnr/faculty/Eckelman/pdf/fpj54(12)192-197.pdf
cleary states pinned joints are weaker in terms of bending moment.
This is not a straight pullout test where the pin would surly add
strength but the pin does weaking the joint.

Also pin closer to the shoulder is better because the tenon is what
breaks, not the mortised piece. Also good wide shoulders add strength.

In my defense, if the glue ever faild the pin would add strength
because the way this test was done glued and non glued joinst were the
same strength because it was twist not pull. I like it that way
sometimes too.

The guys site is amazing
http://www.agriculture.purdue.edu/fnr/faculty/Eckelman/

> Oh, and BTW - if this one's yours, you might want to hide the nail
> heads, be more carefull with the glue, at least ease some of the
> sharp edges and cut the molding miters a bit better - there shouldn't
> be visible gaps in mitered corners.
>
> http://www.sonomaproducts.com/images/stories/kits/gallery/pf-ps-L-mai...

All good points but it is a shame you don't see the beauty in
Craftsman designs but as you said, in the eye of the beholder.

I and others have certainly used screws to act as a pin and may hid
the fact with a faux pin. Serves the same mechanical purpose.

Regarding the rustic pine piece you point out; it is just that,
rustic. That line of furniture is called Petaluma Farmhouse and
emulates pieces built by a farmer for his household a century ago. The
reality is that fitting the mitered crown will be difficult for my
customers because from the kit those pieces are pre-cut. If they build
the box column perfectly and the wood moisture is good then they may
get the miters to fit perfect. But it is likely they will have trouble
getting all four sides to fit perfect. Therefore when I took the
photos I found a side where it wasn't perfect on purpose so I am not
overselling what can be accomplished.

The intent as some of the samples show is to slather these things with
cheap paint and sand it off for a distressed look or use a crackle
finish, etc. I provide some basic instruction son how to do those
finishes with the kits.

One of the beauties of my Craftsman line (which isn't commercially
available yet) is that due to the rectalinear (sp?) nature of that
style it is easy to mill the kits in such a way as to allow kit
assembly to produce near perfect results without need of commercial
grade equipment to adjust any of the milled pieces.

On Feb 23, 11:42=A0am, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > An interesting question in one of the pro forums:
>
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > "I make some chairs using Festool Dominos. Is it ok to call the
> > joinery "mortise and tenon"? I suppose a more accurate description
> > would be loose tenon, but that sounds bad, like it's not secured.
>
> Mortise and floating tenon.

2 mortises and a tenon joint?

There is a mortise and there is a tenon. The fact that there are TWO
mortises, with half the tenon in each one, in now way diminishes the
strength or function of the joint. The DOMINO cuts mortises and you
supply the tenon - store bought or shop made.

The joint IS a mortise and tenon joint and behaves like one, as opposed
to a dowel or pair of dowels or a slots and biscuit.

Now if you were to say it was a Hand Cut mortise and tenon joint
and you used a power tool to cut the mortise or tenon - Hand Cut
would be deceptive.

SonomaProducts.com wrote:

> Yes they are mortise and tenon but that is a floating tenon. In many
> cases that is NOT as strong in the long run as a true pinned tenon
> joint. The chairs are sturdy today but after 100 years of racking if
> they don'y have a pin through each side they are not 100% the same
> as what one would expect from mortise and tenon.

NO chair joint will withstand a teenage boy - glued, welded, pinned or
cut out of a single log - of oak.

If you're going to "pin" the joint - a square pin will hold up longer
than a round pin. With modern glues however, a pinned joint is
analogous to wearing a belt AND suspenders.

The beauty of the DOMINO and the mortise and tenon joints you can make
with it is accuracy - side slop is minimal and top and bottom slop is as
well - unless you want to "dial in" some slop.

Whether it's pinned or not has nothing to do with the joint being
a Mortise and Tenon. And if the mortise and tenon is pinned together
does it matter if there are two pins rather than just one?

As for strength - some woods used for high end furniture are not
all that strong - mahogany for example, especially the stuff available
today. It works beautifully - but a mahogany tenon won't be as strong
as a separate straight grained birch "loose" tenon. And if the joint
is an angled mortise and tenon joint, the separate, straight grained
"loose" tenon will be stronger than a traditional tenon and won't split
due to grain orientation

With a "pinned" mortise and tenon joint, it's not going to be
the pin, round or square, that fails - it's the wood between it
and the end of the tenon that will fail if the joint is subjected
to enough Pull The Tenon Out Of The Mortise force.

With modern glues, there have been plenty of tests that show
that, with a properly fit mortise and tenon joint, it's the wood
fibers on one or both sides of the glued surface that fails, the
glued interface is stronger than the adjacent wood fiber connections.

Now about the pin - square peds, oriented so a face on the peg
is square to the grain direction, it will distribute Pull Apart forces
over more surface area of end grain - than would a round peg - which
concentrates forces to a single point.

But backing up, who here is building furniture to hold up to normal
day to day forces - for a hundred or more years? And if that is
the case, do you think the piece will be valued highly enough to
be cared for - for 5 generations? People move two or three or
more times in their lifetime. And over five generations there's
bound to be changes in the temperature and humidity the piece
will live in over the 100 years. And over that 100 years, tastes
will change and unless the piece is a Maloof or a Krenov and has
not just senitmental value - it's going to leave the family at some
point - and become just another piece.

I'm for making things I can use and looks good to my eye. After
me - I won't be around to have to fix it if something loosens up.

SonomaProducts wrote:

> Sorry you like to build crap. I build quality pieces that will last
> many generations if the holders wish them to do so.

Crap? You be the jugdge

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DasBench/CBbench33.html

I CAN make things to last - if it's warranted. And I did pin
the through mortise and tenon joints on where the drawer units
connects to the pedestal legs of my workbench - TWO pins per
each large through tenon. But that's because I wanted the option
of being able to pop the through pins so if I ever want to take
the drawer unit out I can.

You'll note that the frame around the core of the bench top has
BIG dovetails - that are NOT glued - to allow for expansion and
contraction of the bench top's coore as well as to permit them
to be replaced when they get dinged up over the next 100 years.
They're held vertically to the core with unglued splines - AllThread
and nylon centered lock nuts secrure the front and rear aprons
to the bench top core. I could turn walnut plugs to hide the
lock nut heads - but I don't want to decieve anyone into thinking
the front and back apron is pegged to the core. I went with
AllThread and Lock Nuts because they were the strongest most
secure means to securing the front and rear apron to the
bench top core.

Would it shock you to know that many of the "pegs" and
"through tenons" on many of the highly prized and quite
expensive antique Stickely furniture hide screws that hold
parts together - or - are strickly decorative plugs masquerading
as pegs?

Would it surprise you to discover that some pretty high end
chinese and indian furniture - use NO glue - AND - no pegs,
relying on interlocking joinery - that can't be seen once the
piece is assembled - but permit the piece to be dismantled
and reassembled - IF you know where to start the
disassembly?

I consider Yeung Chan a high end furniture maker. Check out
his delicate looking, elegant chinese plant stand and chair. He
brings them totally disassembled to some of his demonstrations
- assembles them and then sits on them and wiggles and rocks
them. None of the joints open - AT ALL. No pegs - and no glue.

Now back to when to build so it'll last 100 years. Since kitchen
and bathroom cabinets are typically replaced every 10 to 20 years
why build them to hold up for 100 years? Using modern methods
of joining and modern glues, who says today's pieces won't hold
up - for a hundred years?

Should jonery that WILL hold up for a hundred years be THE
criteria to distinguish "high end" pieces from "crap" pieces?
Personally, I find most A&C / Stickley / Greene & Greene
furniture to be too massive and not very aesthetically pleasing
to the eye, nor comfortable to use. Same goes for Mission
and Prairie furniture as well as most Mediteranean furniture.
But that's just my taste.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Strength and the integrity
of the joinery - that's an engineering and strength of materials
issue. If the parts stay together - at least for my lifetime
- I don't care how they're done - if they work - and I don't have
to see them.

If loose tenon joiniery will meet my needs - and I cut the mortises
with a DOMINO I'm satisfied with my work.

Have a look at these bonsai display tables - made for outdoor
use. Not really high end - but hardly crap either. They've been
out in the weather, with bonsai on them that are watered
several times a day during warm weather. Other than the
redwood they're made of weathering to a grayish color, no
joints have failed or opened - at all.

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/BonsaiStands/BonsaiStands4.html

Should one of them eventually fail, I'll make another - in about
an hour or maybe two - since I can do ALL the mortises required
- in 15 minutes - at the most - thanks to the DOMINO - and the
modern marvel - electricity.

Oh, and BTW - if this one's yours, you might want to hide the nail
heads, be more carefull with the glue, at least ease some of the
sharp edges and cut the molding miters a bit better - there shouldn't
be visible gaps in mitered corners.

http://www.sonomaproducts.com/images/stories/kits/gallery/pf-ps-L-main.jpg

>
> And, yes, the chairs are sturdy. Sometimes you just need to cut wide
> slots and make bigger tenons and/or double up.
>
> Thanks!"
> =====
>
> I'm on the fence on this one.

Yes they are mortise and tenon but that is a floating tenon. In many
cases that is NOT as strong in the long run as a true pinned tenon
joint. The chairs are sturdy today but after 100 years of racking if
they don'y have a pin through each side they are not 100% the same as
what one would expect from mortise and tenon.

On Feb 24, 10:52=A0pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Reading comprehension is clearly not your strong suit. =A0

*chuckles*

> You might want to take a look at
> <http://www.agriculture.purdue.edu/fnr/faculty/Eckelman/pdf/fpj56(3)51-
> 57.pdf> in which tests showed that chairs with pinned tenons were weaker
> than with unpinned. =A0Fine Woodworking's test showed similar results. =
=A0- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ya know, I was ready to eat some crow and enjoy the taste if someone
finally brought a gun to this knife fight and offered up some real
supporting evidence. However, this report compares pinned joints with
no glue vs glued joints with no pins. Furthermore, it finds the pinned
joints are 80% to 90% as strong as the glued joint method (IIRC). So
you have just proven my point in a way because if the pin itself is
nearly as strong as a glued joint, is adding a pin to a glued joint
going to make it stronger... the crowd shouts YES!

Please reference my original and simple point that an unpinned joint
is not 100% as strong as a pinned joint and don't take the argument
off on some tangent just to find a supporting point, which seems ro be
difficult... slice!

>
> In the barn I'm working on there are several pinned mortise and tenon
> joints that are in the process of coming apart--generally the tenon
> split out behind the pin. =A0This is on 8x8 post and beam construction.
>

And how many of those joints would have already totally failed if the
pin wasn't there as a last resort mechanical assist? I don't think you
can say but it seems you are proving my point and at the least have
offer no imperical proof I am wrong. And I am certainly not deluded
and neither are a few hundred, maybe thousands of years of craftsman
who have pinned their joints.

>
> A glued joint is like grown wood: all one. If anything, the joint
> would be weaker due to the drilling. =A0Check the joint strength test
> result for anyone this century and I'll bet you change your tune.
>
> http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/glue.htmlhttp://www.popularwoodworking=
.com/article/The_Anvil_Test/
>
> and a whole bunch more.http://www.woodstore.net/wojotote.html=A0Only $3.7=
5 for a copy.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--John Adams

Never said glue isn't strong. Never said I have experienced a joint
failure. I speculated that a pinned joint is stronger than a not
pinned joint. None of the tests you point to have anything to do with
pinned vs not pinned. So your claims are just retoric just like mine.

>
> How could a pin make any difference if the joint were immovably glued
> together?
>

1. Glue can fail.
2. Glue adds some level of adhesion to resit pull out. A pin adds
considerably more.
3. In a door or drawer or chair especially, therre are racking forces
that slowly tear away at the glues adhesion. Once that is disabled the
pin remains.
4. Simple physics says the joint is stronger. It has been too long
since I did end reaaction and shear force calcs but I'm sombody could
quickly prove how strong a 1/4" dowel is in cross section sheer and it
is surely more than a waekened face to face glue joint, especially a
hundred years from now.

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 13:34:32 -0800 (PST), "SonomaProducts.com"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>> How could a pin make any difference if the joint were immovably glued
>> together?
>>
>
>1. Glue can fail.

You are apparently using the wrong glue or making loose joints if you
have so many failures. Other reasons can be: temperature too low
during glueup, adhesive too old, adhesive previously frozen, or
skinning time too long.


>2. Glue adds some level of adhesion to resit pull out. A pin adds
>considerably more.

Good PVA glue joints make two pieces of wood into one. It's the
surrounding wood which gives before the glue does.


>3. In a door or drawer or chair especially, therre are racking forces
>that slowly tear away at the glues adhesion. Once that is disabled the
>pin remains.

Chairs are in a world of their own. Imperfect joints allow them to be
assembled, and racking forces are more extreme than anywhere else in
furniture, so there is a chance of glue failure. But it's the
imperfect joint -gap- which causes it.


>4. Simple physics says the joint is stronger. It has been too long
>since I did end reaaction and shear force calcs but I'm sombody could
>quickly prove how strong a 1/4" dowel is in cross section sheer and it
>is surely more than a waekened face to face glue joint, especially a
>hundred years from now.

A glued joint is like grown wood: all one. If anything, the joint
would be weaker due to the drilling. Check the joint strength test
result for anyone this century and I'll bet you change your tune.

http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/glue.html
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/The_Anvil_Test/

and a whole bunch more.
http://www.woodstore.net/wojotote.html Only $3.75 for a copy.

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

On Feb 25, 1:27=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Feb 24, 12:03=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > A chairmaker doesn't want to mislead his customers by making false
> > claims in both his printed matter and website content.
>

>
> I hope this was an innocent question that the usual thin skinned
> experts pesonalized.
>

That's what they do. I honestly don't know how the diameter of a pin
in a pinned tenon didn't make it into the argument, but it wasn't *I*
who brought the whole farking pinned tenon into the argument.
All I did was pass along a question which was asked, in all
seriousness, in another forum (Woodweb).

I plead innocent on this one; I am just not that talented.... and even
if I was, I would harness the evil powers to do good work for all
mankind.

r (not my real initial)

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> An interesting question in one of the pro forums:
>
> =====
> "I make some chairs using Festool Dominos. Is it ok to call the
> joinery "mortise and tenon"? I suppose a more accurate description
> would be loose tenon, but that sounds bad, like it's not secured.

Mortise and floating tenon.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:0bd4cdd5-a7a7-43db-b09f-27d54b25b15e@k15g2000prk.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> I think the same applies to the Domino. You can say it is a mortise
> and tenon joint, but not equivalent to one that is handcrafted.


;~) Probably not equivalent but more than likely better than hand crafted.
Becauseeeeee, the domino tennons are all basically the same, straight
grained wood without defects. A tennon cut on the end of a board can be
good or it could be terrible because of what you have to work with at the
end of the board. Not all boards have good ends for tennons.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> That is what it is.... but can this guy call it a "Mortise & Tenon"
> joint in his brochure?

My guess would be "yes", but if he didn't qualify it at the same time with
specific information about the Domino itself, he'd be doing a disservice to
his own brochure. The Domino is such a new advancement to the home
woodworker's art of tenon and mortise that without specific details as to
how it works, many woodworkers would dismiss it as just another common tool.

In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
@swbell.dotnet says...
>
> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:6e01ee46-dd1c-47dc-86da-8eca2f06dcdf@k15g2000prk.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> >> How could a pin make any difference if the joint were immovably glued
> >> together?
> >>
> >
> > 1. Glue can fail.
> > 2. Glue adds some level of adhesion to resit pull out. A pin adds
> > considerably more.
> > 3. In a door or drawer or chair especially, therre are racking forces
> > that slowly tear away at the glues adhesion. Once that is disabled the
> > pin remains.
> > 4. Simple physics says the joint is stronger. It has been too long
> > since I did end reaaction and shear force calcs but I'm sombody could
> > quickly prove how strong a 1/4" dowel is in cross section sheer and it
> > is surely more than a waekened face to face glue joint, especially a
> > hundred years from now.
>
>
>
> All valid points however.... What makes the pin "itself" rot, wear, or
> break proof. The pin is surely weaker than the wood that makes the tennon,
> if the tenon wears, the pin has to have worn to allow the tennon to move and
> wear.
>
> I will give the pin the nod to perhaps helping a failed joint last 1%
> longer until the pin fails also.

In the barn I'm working on there are several pinned mortise and tenon
joints that are in the process of coming apart--generally the tenon
split out behind the pin. This is on 8x8 post and beam construction.

Whether the pin or the tenon is weaker depends on the dimensions of the
joint.

It's true that glue can fail. So can a pin. So can a mortise. So can a
tenon.

Glue adds a level of resistance to pull out equal to the strength of
solid wood. A pin adds less.

Racking forces also tear away at the pin.

Simple physics does not say that the joint is stronger. It is only
stronger if the glue has failed.

And why would a glue joint be "weakened" in 100 years if it was properly
made? I'm restoring a bookcase right now that's older than that and the
hide glue joints on it are still for the most part perfectly sound. The
only one that has failed is on a molding and it's clear that somebody
pried really hard on it to get it to fail.

Certainly use a pin if it fits the style or if it makes you feel better,
but don't delude yourself that it is stronger than an epoxy joint.

In article <60c2cc2f-be92-429c-b723-a2f407fdb692
@a21g2000prj.googlegroups.com>, [email protected] says...
>
> >
> > In the barn I'm working on there are several pinned mortise and tenon
> > joints that are in the process of coming apart--generally the tenon
> > split out behind the pin.  This is on 8x8 post and beam construction.
> >
>
> And how many of those joints would have already totally failed if the
> pin wasn't there as a last resort mechanical assist? I don't think you
> can say but it seems you are proving my point and at the least have
> offer no imperical proof I am wrong. And I am certainly not deluded
> and neither are a few hundred, maybe thousands of years of craftsman
> who have pinned their joints.

The pin is not a "last resort mechanical assist", it was the only
fastener holding the joint together until some cables with turnbuckles
were installed.

And the reason it was used is not that it was strong, it was that the
joint can be disassembled when the barn needs repair.

If the joints had been tightly fitted and glued they likely would not
have come apart at all. But they also would not be amenable to
disassembly at need.

In article <fb7eff25-536a-4e7d-872a-6d4da5302c61
@z27g2000prz.googlegroups.com>, [email protected] says...
>
> >
> > With modern glues, there have been plenty of tests that show
> > that, with a properly fit mortise and tenon joint, it's the wood
> > fibers on one or both sides of the glued surface that fails, the
> > glued interface is stronger than the adjacent wood fiber connections.
> >
> Yes glue is strong. Where is the one test you can point to that says a
> non-pinned joint is as strong or strongetthan a pinned joint? I read
> lots of these reports and haven't seen one yet.
>
> > Now about the pin - square peds, oriented so a face on the peg
> > is square to the grain direction, it will distribute Pull Apart forces
> > over more surface area of end grain - than would a round peg - which
> > concentrates forces to a single point.
>
> I only made it through the first year and 1/2 of my engineering
> education but later in life also worked with FEA analysis software and
> I think you have things quite wrong. Backwards actually. The rounded
> surface will produce a much more evenly distributed force than flat
> surfaces.
>
>
> > But backing up, who here is building furniture to hold up to normal
> > day to day forces - for a hundred or more years?  And if that is
> > the case, do you think the piece will be valued highly enough to
> > be cared for - for 5 generations?  People move two or three or
> > more times in their lifetime.  And over five generations there's
> > bound to be changes in the temperature and humidity the piece
> > will live in over the 100 years.  And over that 100 years, tastes
> > will change and unless the piece is a Maloof or a Krenov and has
> > not just senitmental value - it's going to leave the family at some
> > point - and become just another piece.
> >
>
> Sorry you like to build crap. I build quality pieces that will last
> many generations if the holders wish them to do so.

You might want to take a look at
<http://www.agriculture.purdue.edu/fnr/faculty/Eckelman/pdf/fpj56(3)51-
57.pdf> in which tests showed that chairs with pinned tenons were weaker
than with unpinned. Fine Woodworking's test showed similar results.

In article <5c65630f-091f-462a-9dbd-59ee15c3acf0
@j35g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, [email protected] says...
>
> > You might want to take a look at
> > <http://www.agriculture.purdue.edu/fnr/faculty/Eckelman/pdf/fpj56(3)51-
> > 57.pdf> in which tests showed that chairs with pinned tenons were weaker
> > than with unpinned.  Fine Woodworking's test showed similar results.  - Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Ya know, I was ready to eat some crow and enjoy the taste if someone
> finally brought a gun to this knife fight and offered up some real
> supporting evidence. However, this report compares pinned joints with
> no glue vs glued joints with no pins. Furthermore, it finds the pinned
> joints are 80% to 90% as strong as the glued joint method (IIRC). So
> you have just proven my point in a way because if the pin itself is
> nearly as strong as a glued joint, is adding a pin to a glued joint
> going to make it stronger... the crowd shouts YES!

Reading comprehension is clearly not your strong suit. Read the article
again, and this time look at what is there instead of what you want to
be there.

> Please reference my original and simple point that an unpinned joint
> is not 100% as strong as a pinned joint and don't take the argument
> off on some tangent just to find a supporting point, which seems ro be
> difficult... slice!

"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I don't buy that a pinned tennon makes a
> mortise and tennon significantly stronger unless no glue is being used.

We'll have to disagree on that one.

Thats OK and I still respect you. l~)

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:b7360dac-0545-430f-88f3-57f7e9a5cded@k17g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
> An interesting question in one of the pro forums:
>
> =====
> "I make some chairs using Festool Dominos. Is it ok to call the
> joinery "mortise and tenon"? I suppose a more accurate description
> would be loose tenon, but that sounds bad, like it's not secured.
>
> And, yes, the chairs are sturdy. Sometimes you just need to cut wide
> slots and make bigger tenons and/or double up.
>
> Thanks!"
> =====
>
> I'm on the fence on this one.


Actually a Domino makes a mortise. What you do with that mortise will
determine what you call it.

On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 11:29:00 -0800 (PST), "SonomaProducts.com"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>> A glued joint is like grown wood: all one. If anything, the joint
>> would be weaker due to the drilling.  Check the joint strength test
>> result for anyone this century and I'll bet you change your tune.
>>
>> http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/glue.htmlhttp://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/The_Anvil_Test/
>>
>> and a whole bunch more.http://www.woodstore.net/wojotote.html Only $3.75 for a copy.
>
>Never said glue isn't strong. Never said I have experienced a joint
>failure. I speculated that a pinned joint is stronger than a not
>pinned joint. None of the tests you point to have anything to do with
>pinned vs not pinned. So your claims are just retoric just like mine.

I liken glue on wood to welding on metal. They both make two pieces
into one. My thoughts are that pins could only decrease the overall
strength of the piece. Pinned joints can be very strong, but a glued
joint will always be stronger.

I refer you to the parts of those tests which indicate that the wood
breaks before the glue joint and ask you how the pin could ever come
into action as a strengthener, given a good glueup. I submit that it
can -never- do so.

I guess we'll have to agree that we disagree on the point.

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:38:41 -0800 (PST), Robatoy wrote:

> An interesting question in one of the pro forums:
>
> =====
> "I make some chairs using Festool Dominos. Is it ok to call the
> joinery "mortise and tenon"? I suppose a more accurate description
> would be loose tenon, but that sounds bad, like it's not secured.
>
> And, yes, the chairs are sturdy. Sometimes you just need to cut wide
> slots and make bigger tenons and/or double up.
>
> Thanks!"
> =====
>
> I'm on the fence on this one.

I would have to specify that it was loose tenon joinery.

I have trouble calling a piece that contains plywood,
"solid wood construction" even though that is accepted
practise. Plywood is the very best material for many
uses and some parts of fine furniture, but I can't bring
myself to call it solid wood.

basilisk

On Feb 24, 12:03=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:

> A chairmaker doesn't want to mislead his customers by making false
> claims in both his printed matter and website content.

You know... I don't want to sell you short, old buddy. Besides, I
don't want you to cast your evil eye in my direction.

But sonovabitch..... you can't be this talented. Really. I am
thinking you must be related to Satan in some way or another.

You have gotten so good at this, that you can ask a >>seemingly<<
innocent question and get a shit throwing war started.

How do you do it? How?

Is it part of an evil scheme or are you just trifling with the
prehensile tailed primates?

You are getting scary...

I hope this was an innocent question that the usual thin skinned
experts pesonalized.

I wonder....

No shit; you get more action out of a simple question than RicoJ got
out of this group when he announced that he ran a full search of the
federal and state sites for abandoned money as a personal courtesy <<
to everyone he meets>>!

Scary

Robert (not my real name)

On Feb 23, 11:42=A0am, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > An interesting question in one of the pro forums:
>
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > "I make some chairs using Festool Dominos. Is it ok to call the
> > joinery "mortise and tenon"? I suppose a more accurate description
> > would be loose tenon, but that sounds bad, like it's not secured.
>
> Mortise and floating tenon.

That is what it is.... but can this guy call it a "Mortise & Tenon"
joint in his brochure?

=A0I don't buy that a pinned tennon makes a
> mortise and tennon significantly stronger unless no glue is being used.

We'll have to disagree on that one.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> >
>>> And, yes, the chairs are sturdy. Sometimes you just need to cut wide
>>> slots and make bigger tenons and/or double up.
>>>
>>> Thanks!"
>>> =====
>>>
>>> I'm on the fence on this one.
>>
>> Yes they are mortise and tenon but that is a floating tenon. In many
>> cases that is NOT as strong in the long run as a true pinned tenon
>> joint. The chairs are sturdy today but after 100 years of racking if
>> they don'y have a pin through each side they are not 100% the same as
>> what one would expect from mortise and tenon.
>>
>
> I would certainly think that after 100 years of racking that a pin through
> the tennon would be worn out also. I don't buy that a pinned tennon makes
> a mortise and tennon significantly stronger unless no glue is being used.
>

In any case, I don't care if the joint lasts more than 30 years. I'll be
dead by then. The people still living can make their own.

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> In any case, I don't care if the joint lasts more than 30 years. I'll be
> dead by then. The people still living can make their own.
>

Not that is NOT politically correct! Do you are? LOL

>
> With modern glues, there have been plenty of tests that show
> that, with a properly fit mortise and tenon joint, it's the wood
> fibers on one or both sides of the glued surface that fails, the
> glued interface is stronger than the adjacent wood fiber connections.
>
Yes glue is strong. Where is the one test you can point to that says a
non-pinned joint is as strong or strongetthan a pinned joint? I read
lots of these reports and haven't seen one yet.

> Now about the pin - square peds, oriented so a face on the peg
> is square to the grain direction, it will distribute Pull Apart forces
> over more surface area of end grain - than would a round peg - which
> concentrates forces to a single point.

I only made it through the first year and 1/2 of my engineering
education but later in life also worked with FEA analysis software and
I think you have things quite wrong. Backwards actually. The rounded
surface will produce a much more evenly distributed force than flat
surfaces.


> But backing up, who here is building furniture to hold up to normal
> day to day forces - for a hundred or more years? =A0And if that is
> the case, do you think the piece will be valued highly enough to
> be cared for - for 5 generations? =A0People move two or three or
> more times in their lifetime. =A0And over five generations there's
> bound to be changes in the temperature and humidity the piece
> will live in over the 100 years. =A0And over that 100 years, tastes
> will change and unless the piece is a Maloof or a Krenov and has
> not just senitmental value - it's going to leave the family at some
> point - and become just another piece.
>

Sorry you like to build crap. I build quality pieces that will last
many generations if the holders wish them to do so.

On Feb 24, 3:30=A0am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:b7360dac-0545-430f-88f3-57f7e9a5cded@k17g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>
> > An interesting question in one of the pro forums:
>
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > "I make some chairs using Festool Dominos. Is it ok to call the
> > joinery "mortise and tenon"? I suppose a more accurate description
> > would be loose tenon, but that sounds bad, like it's not secured.
>
> > And, yes, the chairs are sturdy. Sometimes you just need to cut wide
> > slots and make bigger tenons and/or double up.
>
> > Thanks!"
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> > I'm on the fence on this one.
>
> What's the issue? Who is the audience?
>
A chairmaker doesn't want to mislead his customers by making false
claims in both his printed matter and website content.

On Feb 23, 1:16=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> >> And, yes, the chairs are sturdy. Sometimes you just need to cut wide
> >> slots and make bigger tenons and/or double up.
>
> >> Thanks!"
> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> >> I'm on the fence on this one.
>
> > Yes they are mortise and tenon but that is a floating tenon. In many
> > cases that is NOT as strong in the long run as a true pinned tenon
> > joint. The chairs are sturdy today but after 100 years of racking if
> > they don'y have a pin through each side they are not 100% the same as
> > what one would expect from mortise and tenon.
>
> I would certainly think that after 100 years of racking that a pin throug=
h
> the tennon would be worn out also. =A0I don't buy that a pinned tennon ma=
kes a
> mortise and tennon significantly stronger unless no glue is being used.

They look great, though. It's pretty much the only reason I use
them. Yellow glue isn't likely to fail within my lifetime.

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:24:56 -0800 (PST), "SonomaProducts.com"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>  I don't buy that a pinned tennon makes a
>> mortise and tennon significantly stronger unless no glue is being used.
>
>We'll have to disagree on that one.

How could a pin make any difference if the joint were immovably glued
together?

I'm with Leon on this one. In a glued situation, the pin is merely
decoration.

--
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
--John Adams

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:b7360dac-0545-430f-88f3-57f7e9a5cded@k17g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
> An interesting question in one of the pro forums:
>
> =====
> "I make some chairs using Festool Dominos. Is it ok to call the
> joinery "mortise and tenon"? I suppose a more accurate description
> would be loose tenon, but that sounds bad, like it's not secured.
>
> And, yes, the chairs are sturdy. Sometimes you just need to cut wide
> slots and make bigger tenons and/or double up.
>
> Thanks!"
> =====
>
> I'm on the fence on this one.


What's the issue? Who is the audience?

--
Ever wonder why doctors, dentists and lawyers have to Practice so much? Ever
wonder why you let them Practice on You?

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:feb52953-a046-428f-82fb-c0a5bb7c4cb0@o39g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 24, 3:30 am, "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:b7360dac-0545-430f-88f3-57f7e9a5cded@k17g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>
> > An interesting question in one of the pro forums:
>
> > =====
> > "I make some chairs using Festool Dominos. Is it ok to call the
> > joinery "mortise and tenon"? I suppose a more accurate description
> > would be loose tenon, but that sounds bad, like it's not secured.
>
> > And, yes, the chairs are sturdy. Sometimes you just need to cut wide
> > slots and make bigger tenons and/or double up.
>
> > Thanks!"
> > =====
>
> > I'm on the fence on this one.
>
> What's the issue? Who is the audience?
>
A chairmaker doesn't want to mislead his customers by making false
claims in both his printed matter and website content.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is he selling to woodworkers or real customers? The difference between these
joints is de minimus.

--
Ever wonder why doctors, dentists and lawyers have to Practice so much? Ever
wonder why you let them Practice on You?

On 2/23/2011 10:46 AM, Robatoy wrote:
> On Feb 23, 11:42 am, "Upscale"<[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Robatoy"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> An interesting question in one of the pro forums:
>>
>>> =====
>>> "I make some chairs using Festool Dominos. Is it ok to call the
>>> joinery "mortise and tenon"? I suppose a more accurate description
>>> would be loose tenon, but that sounds bad, like it's not secured.
>>
>> Mortise and floating tenon.
>
> That is what it is.... but can this guy call it a "Mortise& Tenon"
> joint in his brochure?

IMO, it is technically, a "mortise and tenon joint", and more
traditionally, and specifically, a "mortise and feather tenon" joint.

Personally, I would not use the term "mortise and tenon" to advertise
this type of joint without specifying the type of mortise and tenon joint.

If I wanted to be modern:

"mortise and floating tenon" as upscale said, or

If I wanted to more strictly traditional/technical:

"mortise and feather tenon"

I think that you would get more traditional structural and engineering
agreement on the latter terminology.

That said, the ultimate enforcer would be probably a lawyer.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:6e01ee46-dd1c-47dc-86da-8eca2f06dcdf@k15g2000prk.googlegroups.com...
> >
>> How could a pin make any difference if the joint were immovably glued
>> together?
>>
>
> 1. Glue can fail.
> 2. Glue adds some level of adhesion to resit pull out. A pin adds
> considerably more.
> 3. In a door or drawer or chair especially, therre are racking forces
> that slowly tear away at the glues adhesion. Once that is disabled the
> pin remains.
> 4. Simple physics says the joint is stronger. It has been too long
> since I did end reaaction and shear force calcs but I'm sombody could
> quickly prove how strong a 1/4" dowel is in cross section sheer and it
> is surely more than a waekened face to face glue joint, especially a
> hundred years from now.



All valid points however.... What makes the pin "itself" rot, wear, or
break proof. The pin is surely weaker than the wood that makes the tennon,
if the tenon wears, the pin has to have worn to allow the tennon to move and
wear.

I will give the pin the nod to perhaps helping a failed joint last 1%
longer until the pin fails also.

"Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Feb 23, 1:16 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> >> And, yes, the chairs are sturdy. Sometimes you just need to cut wide
> >> slots and make bigger tenons and/or double up.
>
> >> Thanks!"
> >> =====
>
> >> I'm on the fence on this one.
>
> > Yes they are mortise and tenon but that is a floating tenon. In many
> > cases that is NOT as strong in the long run as a true pinned tenon
> > joint. The chairs are sturdy today but after 100 years of racking if
> > they don'y have a pin through each side they are not 100% the same as
> > what one would expect from mortise and tenon.
>
> I would certainly think that after 100 years of racking that a pin through
> the tennon would be worn out also. I don't buy that a pinned tennon makes
> a
> mortise and tennon significantly stronger unless no glue is being used.

They look great, though. It's pretty much the only reason I use
them. Yellow glue isn't likely to fail within my lifetime.

Acsolutely agree that the pins look great!