Tt

"Too_Many_Tools"

04/11/2006 4:35 PM

10 Things a Homeowners Association Won't Tell You

As a workshop owner, here is something you might want to read before
moving into a home that is controlled a homeowner association.

TMT


1. "We Can't Wait to Get Our Hands on Your Money -- Or Even Your Home."
A gardening violation. That's what landed Jeffrey DeMarco in hot water
with his Rancho Santa Fe, Calif., homeowners association a few years
ago: He planted too many roses on his four-acre property. Peeved, the
association fined him monthly and sat back as the bills mounted. Then
it placed a lien on his property and threatened to foreclose, according
to DeMarco.
He took the board to court, but lost on the grounds that he had
violated the association's architectural design rules. (In addition to
planting roses, he also had regraded the site.) In the end, he got
stuck with the association's $70,000 legal bill and lost his home to
the bank. "Mr. DeMarco came into the community and wanted to step
outside the rules," says Walt Ekard, the association manager. "That's a
detriment to everyone."

Think it couldn't happen to you? Think again. Many people who belong to
homeowners associations do not understand just how much power these
groups have over them -- until they miss a payment or otherwise run
afoul of the board. Fall a single day behind in paying your monthly
dues, for instance, and the association may slap you with a fine. Fall
90 days behind and it may place a lien on your home and threaten to
foreclose unless you pay up immediately. And because you often hand
over the right of property trustee to the association when you agree to
the by-laws, in some cases "you don't even get to go to court," says
Evan McKenzie, a lawyer turned political science professor in Chicago
and the author of Privatopia: Homeowner Associations and the Rise of
Residential Private Government.

Your best defense, if you can afford it: paying what the association
says you owe, then arguing. Most associations work on a "balance
forward" accounting system, in which your payments go toward the
outstanding balance. By delaying, you'll just accumulate more late
fees.

2. "We're More Secretive Than the CIA."
Like corporate boards, which have a fiduciary responsibility to make
disclosures to shareholders, a homeowners association board is supposed
to be upfront with its members. But all too often, boards play things
close to the vest. "The board will say everything is confidential and
they can't tell you anything," says Willowdean Vance, president of the
American Homeowner Association, a consumer group based in Lake Forest,
Calif. "They're just on a power trip and it's absolutely deceitful."

Some boards can be impossibly stubborn about disclosure. When a few
members of the Columbia Foundation, a Maryland homeowners association,
tried to gather some information, another faction of the board was so
miffed at not being consulted first, that they went so far as to try
and impose a rule that would have required members to get permission
from the entire board before asking an outside agency for information.
Larry Holzman, an attorney with Ochs, Holzman and Rosen, a firm
specializing in homeowners litigation, says the rule was voted down
only after a major publicity campaign put forth by the Maryland
Homeowners Association.

Homeowners who feel shut out should first write a letter to the board
formally requesting access to the records, suggests Debra Bass, a
spokeswoman for the Community Associations Institute. If the board is
still mum, "ask for a letter from the association attorney that
explains why you can't see the records," she adds. And if you still
aren't satisfied with the board's response, move somewhere else, or
hire a lawyer and sue. "The entire budget should be open and available
to every homeowner," says Bass. "It should not be kept a secret."

3. "When in Doubt, We Sue."
Board members will tell you that the last thing they want is to go to
court. But it happens all the time. Experts estimate that in
California, 75% of the homeowners associations are embroiled in a legal
tangle of some kind. Chicago attorney Mark Pearlstein, who represents
associations, figures that 60% of all condo boards and homeowners
associations in Illinois are involved in some kind of legal suit.

It's partly a reflection of our increasingly litigious society. But
that's not the only reason. "The association lawyers tell the board to
enforce every rule," says author Evan McKenzie. "They say, 'If you make
one exception, the whole neighborhood falls into chaos.' But who gets
paid every time you take an owner to court?"

The lawyers, of course. But the litigation option can be hard for board
members to resist. For instance, Margurette Nicholson was board
president in 1991 when her association in Portola Hills, Calif., took a
neighbor to court for installing a satellite dish in his backyard.
"Nobody wanted to take this thing to court," says Nicholson. "But one
of the homeowners was a lawyer and she was friends with the
association's lawyer. They both campaigned for it. They both said we
would win. I knew we wouldn't." Indeed, the owner's lawyer argued that
the rule infringed on his client's First Amendment rights and he won.
The board's legal fees: more than $40,000.

4. "You Won't Be Able to Sell When You Want."
Besides being expensive, lawsuits often mean that you won't be able to
sell your home when the time comes to move. "Would you want to go out
and buy a property that was in the middle of a lawsuit?" asks Oliver
Burford, executive director of the Executive Council of Homeowners, a
trade group for California associations. "I wouldn't."

Naturally, banks don't like lending money for homes on which lawsuits
are pending, either. But there are exceptions. "There will always be
some lenders who are willing to lend you the money," says Larry
Holzman, a Maryland attorney. "The problem is you will not be able to
get the same rates set up because banks have very strict lending
criteria." If you find out a condo you're interested in is embroiled in
litigation, use that information to negotiate a lower price, Holzman
advises. If you're the seller of such a property, you'd better not hold
out for top dollar.

5. "We're Poorer Than We Look."
Every association has a reserve fund. It's like a savings account, and
it's meant to be tapped when things go wrong or the property falls into
disrepair. But often these funds are in terrible shape themselves.

Ron Williams, an engineer with R.J. Moore, a consulting company that
specializes in reserve accounting, once worked with a Northern Virginia
condominium that had a paltry $100,000 set aside. "Closer to $1.25
million would have been considered healthy," says Williams. When
power-plant equipment gave out in early 1994, the association didn't
have the $400,000 needed to replace it. The solution: A $2,400 special
assessment to each of the 170 unit owners and a 22% increase in monthly
dues.

When it comes to checking up on a reserve fund, there are two good
rules of thumb. First, about 20% to 25% of your dues should go toward
the reserve fund, says Robert Nordlund, president of Association
Reserves, a California company that specializes in reserve accounting.
Second, there should be a long-term schedule for the reserve fund in
the annual budget, including a projection of upcoming expenses for each
common-area item: elevator repairs, painting, pool maintenance and so
on. Reserve accountants suggest that the account should contain no less
than 70% of the projected reserve budget. If the account is 30% funded
or less, you can expect to be hit with some big assessments down the
road.

6. "We Can Make Up the Rules as We Go Along."
By law, a majority of the homeowners in an association have to approve
any change in the bylaws. But many boards sidestep this by simply
changing their house rules, which are as binding as bylaws but can
usually be rewritten without asking all the homeowners. "Even if you
were to be given the rules today, they're probably already out of date
because [boards are] constantly making changes to the rules at whim,"
says Elizabeth McMahon, a co-founder of the American Homeowners'
Resource Center, a San Juan Capistrano, Calif., consumer group. "And
they couldn't care less if you don't like them."

At the Reston (Va.) Homeowners Association, for instance, only
residents who used the swimming pools and tennis courts had to pay for
their upkeep. But then in 1990, the board decided everyone ought to
chip in, and it polled members. More than 70% of those who voted
opposed the new rule, but it didn't matter. In the end, the board
pushed it through anyway, and fees climbed 26%. "They disregarded the
will of the people," says Thierry Gaudin, a Reston homeowner, "and that
was wrong."

It may be wrong, but it's the board's right. Period. "Bottom line, the
board has to have the right to run the show," says attorney Benny Kass,
who represents associations. About all you can do is keep up to speed
on any changes the board makes in the rules, and if you don't like
them, complain. The sooner you raise a fuss, the better: Rules that
have been around for a while tend to be the hardest to change.

7. "We Don't Want You at Our Meetings."
Monthly meetings are open to all homeowners. At least in theory. "A lot
of times, however, meetings are moved at the last minute to limit the
questions from homeowners or to keep information from them," says
Willowdean Vance, president of the American Homeowner Association, a
consumer group based in Lake Forest, Calif., which has fielded a number
of complaints from homeowners who were shut out of meetings.

Even when you can attend, the board may not acknowledge you. "Board
members won't come out and say that they don't want you at their
meetings," says Vicki Satern, co-founder of Common Ownership Alliance,
a Washington, D.C., consumer group. "But basically, that's what their
goal is."

She knows from firsthand experience. The board at her Virginia vacation
home once decided to hire a new management company. The problem: "They
cost double the money," says Satern. "They wanted 6% of refurbishing
contracts, 10% on engineering contracts, plus we had to buy their
copyrighted software and the equipment to use it."

Outraged, Satern raised her hand at a board meeting. "They ignored me,"
she says. "Finally, I just spoke up. They yelled at me and said I was
not allowed to speak." The new management company was hired.

"When you come to a board meeting," says B. William Smink, the
association's attorney, "you can sit, you can observe, but you cannot
speak because the board is there to exercise its business judgment. And
that's in compliance with national and state community-association
laws." Satern would have done better, according to Smink, if she had
contacted the board members individually before or after the meeting.

Other options for homeowners who feel ignored: "Put your complaint in
writing," says attorney Michael Nagle, who represents associations.
"That's hard to ignore." If that gets you nowhere, petition other
homeowners and call a special meeting to discuss the issue or to remove
some of the board members. "And if it's really bad, take the board to
court," suggests Nagle.

8. "We're in Over Our Heads."
Most board members are volunteers, and they generally get their
training on the job. Sometimes their inexperience means they bungle the
bookkeeping, resulting in higher fees or assessments. Sometimes they
fail to do their homework on outside contractors, meaning that you get
shoddy workmanship in your common areas. And sometimes, as Mary Lindsey
knows all too well, they can cause much bigger problems.

While involved in a divorce in 1992, the Pomona, Calif., family
therapist fell behind in her monthly dues. Back dues, late fees and
interest quickly mushroomed, so Lindsey tried to work out a payment
plan with the board and a credit-counseling service. But they couldn't
agree on exactly how much was owed. "I thought I owed them less than
$800," says Lindsey. "They said it was over $1,000." The dispute wound
up in court as the association threatened to foreclose on her home.

In the end, it turned out that Lindsey was right about the money she
owed. The board had goofed. But the association won its lawsuit anyway.
The judge ruled that she was wrong not to make back payments while the
matter was in dispute. To her dismay, Lindsey was left with a $22,000
bill for the association's legal costs, late fees and interest.

9. "We Work for Nothing but Get Compensated in Other Ways."
Being on the board is a thankless job, board members will tell you.
That's probably true much of the time. But strictly speaking, it's not
always so. The thanks they often get may surprise you.

Special favors and perks for board members are fairly common. The
potential for abuse is inherent in the way these things are organized.
The board members give themselves and their friends privileges and they
never get hassled. The worst-case scenario: The board retains a
contractor and board members get kickbacks.

"This goes on, no question," says Virginia real estate attorney
Fredrick H. Goldbecker. "It's usually done legally, so it's
bulletproof, but that doesn't make it right." When the roof needs
repairing, for example, "the board says the work needs to be done a
certain way, and the only roofer in town who can do it that way is
related to a board member," Goldbecker says. Because many associations
have no formal system of checks and balances, homeowners often have no
idea how their boards make decisions about contractors. About all you
can do is keep a careful eye on the board. Big expenditures, no matter
how mundane, are worth looking into.

10. "We're Incredibly Petty."
In many associations being hard-nosed about the rules is practically
the board's raison d'etre. "Some of these board members have nothing
better to do. So instead of taking care of the property, they censor
people's lifestyles," says Vicki Satern of Common Ownership Alliance.
She needn't tell Allen Warshaw. To ward off a neighbor who had attacked
him with a log, he asked his Rockville, Md., board to bend the rules.
He wanted a six-foot fence, two feet taller than allowed. When the
application was denied, he sued -- and lost. Warshaw wound up with the
association's bills, too. The total: $23,000 in legal fees, court costs
and interest.

Humbled but determined, he built a shorter fence. "I wasn't really
worried because the board had told me that they don't go out and
measure fences," he says. As soon as the fence was up, several board
members walked over to Warshaw's yard and measured it. And indeed, in
some areas the fence was a few inches over four feet. The dispute
continued. "They put a lien on my property," Warshaw says. "They took
all my savings, and they're garnishing my paycheck. It's like I am a
common criminal. It has been devastating." Says Jeffrey Van Grack, the
association's attorney: "The board made numerous offers to try to work
out the payments, but Mr. Warshaw refused."

Sometimes the pettiness is more subtle. When one Virginia homeowner
asked for permission to hang Christmas tree lights in 1992, the board
didn't like the idea but didn't know how to prevent it. "We struggled
with this one," says lawyer Benny Kass, who represented the
association. "But we finally concluded that the restriction against
hanging lights was valid because you were pounding nails into the wood,
and that was a fire hazard." Ho-ho-ho.


This topic has 59 replies

Ss

"Snag"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

04/11/2006 7:59 PM

JR North wrote:
> I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners
> Association. I can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I
> want. How many of youse guys can say the same?
> JR
> Dweller in the cellar
>
> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>
> snip

I could , if I had a fence . Will a tree do ?

--

Snag aka OSG #1
'76 FLH "Bag Lady"
BS132 SENS NEWT
"A hand shift is a manly shift ."
<shamelessly stolen >
none to one to reply

Tt

"Too_Many_Tools"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

04/11/2006 6:22 PM

> I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners Association.
> I can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I want. How many of
> youse guys can say the same?
>

Well I can too...the only ones who would complain would be my "boys" if
I slipped on the fence. ;<)

TMT

JR North wrote:
> I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners Association.
> I can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I want. How many of
> youse guys can say the same?
> JR
> Dweller in the cellar
>
> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>
> snip
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
> If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
> Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
> The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
> No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Dependence is Vulnerability:
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> "Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
> "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

Tt

"Tater"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 9:03 PM


Too_Many_Tools wrote:
> As a workshop owner, here is something you might want to read before
> moving into a home that is controlled a homeowner association.
>

Make sure when you DO buy property that does NOT have a homeowners
association, to start one yourself if at all possible. make the by-laws
so complicated and obtuse that they contracdict while not appearing to
do so. best way to guarantee you will not get annexed into the
neighboring housing assoc without your notice.

bb

"bf"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

06/11/2006 4:35 AM


George Max wrote:
>
> Wow. The way it's portrayed makes it sound like living in one is
> comparable to living in a banana republic run by a corrupt dicatator.
>
> I'm sure glad there are no rules of those kinds around here and my
> neighbors don't care if I park my car on the driveway at night. And
> so on.

It all depends. Sometimes it even depends on who's in office for the
year.

One neighborhood I lived in had about a dozen senior citizens who on
the Association Committee. They had nothing better to do than walk
around every day LOOKING for petty things to report as violations.

The bottom line is that if you live in an association, go through their
approval process for anything you do on the outside. Even planting a
tree. You can make it vague like "plant 3 trees in the backyard". Save
all the letters of approval in case they change the rules next year.

Even though the officers are usually dickheads on a power trip, try to
work with them and appear reasonable, no matter how mad you are. They
will arbitrarily make up stuff. Sometimes you can show them the
covenants and get them to back down. The key is to be unemotional.

Also, sadly, it's usually easier just to give in to their absurd rules
if it doesn't require too much effort. For example, that guy in the
original post should've just taken out some roses. Yes, it's not fair,
but do not try to fight them unless you have a lawyer experienced in
fighting associations. The association basically has unlimited money to
take you to court, and dickheads that love to sue people. I've known
people that have beaten the associations in court, but even if you win
it's still expensive. And if you lose, you have to pay all the legal
bills for the assocation.

Jj

"Jerry"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

07/11/2006 1:18 PM

I'm on the verge of selling my shop tools (table saw, bandsaw, planer,
router table, DP, worktable). I have a two car garage and used 1/2
my garage to build a shop about 3 years ago. A letter recently went
out by the home owners association warning that there were members that
were parking their cars in the driveway which was against the rules --
the cars have to be in the garage.

I'm expecting a violation letter any time. I may wait a few months and
let them finally take it to their lawyer and then liquidate my shop.
I would like to move but my wife is having pains with that idea.

I didn't really consider what a HOA was when I bought the house 12
years ago. We've had run-ins before when we did remodeling and even
to paint the front the the house THE SAME COLOR took a signoff petition
with all the neighbors and three months to get board approval for a job
that took about 4 hours.

Someone was right, it's a power trip for the board members. They
exert more power than any state or federal court would grant a local
government.

I will NEVER NEVER make this mistake again and buy a house where there
is a HOA. Beware....




On Nov 4, 4:35 pm, "Too_Many_Tools" <[email protected]> wrote:
> As a workshop owner, here is something you might want to read before
> moving into a home that is controlled a homeowner association.
>
> TMT
>

bb

"bf"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

09/11/2006 6:16 AM


Jerry wrote:
> I'm on the verge of selling my shop tools (table saw, bandsaw, planer,
> router table, DP, worktable). I have a two car garage and used 1/2
> my garage to build a shop about 3 years ago. A letter recently went
> out by the home owners association warning that there were members that
> were parking their cars in the driveway which was against the rules --
> the cars have to be in the garage.

Oh man, that's a nightmare.

There's some possible courses of action. Most homeowners' associations
have a clause
that let you change the rules if you get 3/4 of the homeowners.. Some
make it more difficult by saying 3/4 can dissolve the association and
reform it.. Look into it. See if you can get a petition to change it
so that driveway parking is permited, but street parking isn't.

The other way is to get yourself and a bunch of other friends to try to
run and take over the board. I had a friend that successfully pulled
that off in his neighborhood. Basically, he and 2 other guys (5 member
board) campained that they would be a kinder, gentler board, because
the current board was very anal retentive. Enough people were fed up
with the police state, and they won.

I'd hate to see you have to give up your shop. I suppose even if you
put stuff on mobile bases, it would be hard to get both cars in.

I don't think approaching the board would help, because someone
obviously someone in power has a bug up their ass about this issue.

PG

"Peter Grey"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 9:53 PM




"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Sounds like an ideal place for a good little socialist.
>

Hey, thanks!

Peter

Lr

"Leon"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

07/11/2006 11:04 PM


"Jerry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm on the verge of selling my shop tools (table saw, bandsaw, planer,
> router table, DP, worktable). I have a two car garage and used 1/2
> my garage to build a shop about 3 years ago. A letter recently went
> out by the home owners association warning that there were members that
> were parking their cars in the driveway which was against the rules --
> the cars have to be in the garage.
>
> I'm expecting a violation letter any time. I may wait a few months and
> let them finally take it to their lawyer and then liquidate my shop.
> I would like to move but my wife is having pains with that idea.
>
> I didn't really consider what a HOA was when I bought the house 12
> years ago. We've had run-ins before when we did remodeling and even
> to paint the front the the house THE SAME COLOR took a signoff petition
> with all the neighbors and three months to get board approval for a job
> that took about 4 hours.
>
> Someone was right, it's a power trip for the board members. They
> exert more power than any state or federal court would grant a local
> government.
>
> I will NEVER NEVER make this mistake again and buy a house where there
> is a HOA. Beware....

Our HOA has a similar rule however it is aimed at those that use their drive
way as storage for vehicles. If you drive the car weekly there is no
problem. They just don't want to see cars setting up on blocks and neither
do I.

Pn

Phisherman

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 11:35 AM

On 4 Nov 2006 16:35:34 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>As a workshop owner, here is something you might want to read before
>moving into a home that is controlled a homeowner association.
>
<snip>

I really liked a house for sale and wanted to buy it until I read the
rules about the Home Owners Association. The property had a pond in
the backyard which was open to anyone in the association. It meant
that neighbors could come and go in the backyard. To me, buying a
home means having a little privacy so I bought another house that was
NOT in an association. Besides, do home owners really want another
monthly bill?

TQ

Tom Quackenbush

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

04/11/2006 9:06 PM

JR North wrote:

>I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners Association.
>I can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I want. How many of
>youse guys can say the same?
>JR

I _could_, but first I'd have to get a fence and a Kazoo.

I can, and do, walk around in my yard in my skivvies, except when
it's too cold or when the blackflies or mosquitos are about. This year
it was safe on Septeber 16th, if I remember correctly. I could've done
it nekkid, but my dog has an awfully cold nose.

R,
Tom Q.

--
Remove bogusinfo to reply.

DR

David R Brooks

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

06/11/2006 1:51 AM

Leon wrote:
> "JR North" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners Association. I
>> can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I want. How many of youse
>> guys can say the same?
>> JR
>
>
> You can pity him, but not call him a fool. I pity the fool that lives next
> to some one that sits naked on his fence and plays the Kazoo.
>
>
I allus' thought the only reason for not sitting around naked, was not
to frighten the horses?
As for the Kazoo, now I'll trust he plays it *well*...

Pp

Puckdropper

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

07/11/2006 11:35 PM

"Jerry" <[email protected]> wrote in news:1162934291.787124.19610
@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:

> I'm on the verge of selling my shop tools (table saw, bandsaw, planer,
> router table, DP, worktable). I have a two car garage and used 1/2
> my garage to build a shop about 3 years ago. A letter recently went
> out by the home owners association warning that there were members that
> were parking their cars in the driveway which was against the rules --
> the cars have to be in the garage.
>

*snip*

I wouldn't sell the shop tools. As much as I hate moving, I'd sell the
house and move. If driveways were not to park in, they'd call them
roads.

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

MA

"Michael A. Terrell"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

08/11/2006 3:23 AM

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
> Jerks aside, many towns have ordinances about unregistered cars. Hang a tag
> and pay registration and taxes and they don't care how many you have.


You have to pay an impact fee for a new tag in Florida, and you have
to have full insurance to keep that tag so it could cost over $2000 the
first year. After a few years, you could pay for a decent garage.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

MA

"Michael A. Terrell"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

08/11/2006 3:36 AM

Snag wrote:
>
> Not necessarily . I had a '58 Chevy 4X4 parked in my driveway for many years
> . Tagged and insured . Also had a city code inspector that though I should
> get rid of it . SOB dropped cites on me regularly for years , and every time
> I had to prove the truck was operable .
> On the other side , I had a half stripped 80 Honda Civic in the front yard
> for over a year , never a word .
> The difference ? A neighbor that decided she was gonna harass the whitey
> outta her neighborhood . Seems the black inspector dude was in cahoots ...
> He quit harassing me after he had me summoned to court . It was a nice
> balmy 37 degrees out that February morning . He took one look at me in my
> full leathers and decided to drop the whole thing . He had contacted me to
> say that he was dropping the cite , but his manner when he addressed the
> judge ..."Well , since Mr. Coombs hasn't taken this seriously enough to show
> up in court ... " at which point I interrupted him . Wish I had a picture of
> his eyes bugging out .
> Haven't heard from him since , last I heard he asked to be transferred to
> another part of town .


I had the Butler County, Ohio zoning inspector banging on my front
door, late one afternoon. He ordered me to get rid of the '73 Chevy
stepvan parked in my driveway because there was a school building across
the street. Then he told me, "The damn thing doesn't run, anyway!" I
pointed out that I lived on a very busy highway, and that the school
system had closed that school several years earlier, then sold it so it
was no longer a school. He said, "I don't give a damn, that truck has
to go!" I told him I used it for my business, servicing electronics for
three school systems, and that it was on the road almost every morning,
then I spent the rest of the day working in my home shop. He said,
"You're a damn liar. I know that the damn thing doesn't run."

I smiled and asked if his hospitalization and life insurance was paid
up. He turned red and yelled, "You just threatened a public official!"
I started laughing and said, No, I didn't, I simply asked a question.
You keep saying that my truck doesn't run. I'm simply stating that it
does run. Now, if you are stupid enough to insult me and my truck one
more time I am going to fire it up, rev it up, then pop a wheelie so I
can set it down on your sorry, ignorant ass. He jumped in the county
car and peeled rubber. I wonder why he never came back? ;-)


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

BH

Brian Henderson

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

07/11/2006 6:03 PM

On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 03:01:37 GMT, George Max
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Funny. That reminds me that there's a guy a few miles from my place,
>in a residential area, that's essentially done that. And has a very
>overgrown yard. The house is painted purple, there's a sharply
>contrasting color for the trim. I think some walls don't match
>others.

There's a shopping center in Irvine, CA (a "planned" community) that
painted a long, long fence purple when it was built. The "community
planners" decided that the particular shade of purple didn't fit into
their pallette and forced them to repaint the wall at great expense to
something that, at least for me, I can't tell the difference.

It's all control-freaks gone crazy.

EP

"Edwin Pawlowski"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 4:40 PM


"Emmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have lived in my house for 11 years, and since the day I moved in, I have
>parked my Porsche 944 race car in my driveway. Last week, the Austin
>police came by and told me I had 10 days to get rid of it. The next day,
>the city sent a different guy over to tell me that I had to hide all three
>of my Porsches behind a 6' fence. I have no HOA where I live, but
>apparently I have a jerk for a neighbor...

Jerks aside, many towns have ordinances about unregistered cars. Hang a tag
and pay registration and taxes and they don't care how many you have.

JN

JR North

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

04/11/2006 4:45 PM

I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners Association.
I can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I want. How many of
youse guys can say the same?
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

snip
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

GM

George Max

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 2:52 PM

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 11:35:11 GMT, Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 4 Nov 2006 16:35:34 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>As a workshop owner, here is something you might want to read before
>>moving into a home that is controlled a homeowner association.
>>
><snip>
>
>buying a
>home means having a little privacy. Besides, do home owners really want another
>monthly bill?

When I first bought my house, another bill was definitely NOT
something I wanted. That hasn't changed ;)

GM

George Max

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 2:59 PM

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 13:03:27 GMT, "Siggy" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Here is a simple list of things you might want to consider to avoid all of
>these problems:
>
>1) Learn about the deed restrictions *before* you buy the house. If you
>can't live with them don't buy.

Absolutely

>2) Once you move in, follow the rules.

Agreed. If you buy, you at least tacitly accept those rules.

>3) If you think the board is screwing with you or your neighbors, get those
>of you who feel the same to run for a board seat and take control of the
>board yourself. If you can't get yourselves elected then chances are *you*
>are the problem, not the board.
>

Or maybe the problem is the rules are so rigged as to make replacement
of board member almost impossible.

Personally, I think if it's my property, I can do with it as I please
within the rules of my cities zoning. For example, I won't be allowed
to (nor would I want) to turn my house in my residential neighborhood
into a Starbucks.

OTOH, if I'm pressed for time, I may not get around to shoveling snow
until the evening after a storm. Or I may leave my car on my drive.
Or the trash can gets left out. Or wifey and I hang laundry on a line
in the backyard. Or any other number of innocuous things people do in
the course of normal living.

We're not talking about rusty old cars and dead appliances scattered
around the lawn. Or farm animals grazing out front.

aa

"azotic"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 8:20 AM


> "Jeff Burke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 04:32:09 GMT, "Leon" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>>Naw, Dave... If you live in Houston, you can hardly avoid a HOA.
>>
>> What happens if you want to buy a house but you don't want to sign the
>> HOA
>> contract?
>

If your into metalworking, auto repair etc, you should not even consider
purchasing a home that
is goverened by the HOA-INDUSTRY period.

For a glimpse of what life in a HOA community can be like check out:

http://www.ccfj.net/HOAgen800lb.html

http://www.ahrc.com/new/index.php/src/news

http://hoanewsnetwork.com/blog/

Best Regards
Tom.


RS

"RAM³"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

04/11/2006 8:20 PM

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "JR North" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners Association. I
>>can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I want. How many of youse
>>guys can say the same?
>> JR
>
>
> You can pity him, but not call him a fool. I pity the fool that lives
> next to some one that sits naked on his fence and plays the Kazoo.
>

Howabout the 400# neighbor sunbathing in her bikini?

She likes kazoo music! <grin>


Lr

"Leon"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 5:19 PM


"azotic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>> "Jeff Burke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 04:32:09 GMT, "Leon" <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>Naw, Dave... If you live in Houston, you can hardly avoid a HOA.
>>>
>>> What happens if you want to buy a house but you don't want to sign the
>>> HOA
>>> contract?
>>
>
> If your into metalworking, auto repair etc, you should not even consider
> purchasing a home that
> is goverened by the HOA-INDUSTRY period.

All I can say is that not all HOA's are the same. I run a small wood
working business out of my home with no problems.

DJ

"Diamond Jim"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 6:02 AM


"JR North" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners Association. I
>can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I want. How many of youse
>guys can say the same?
> JR
> Dweller in the cellar
>
> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>
> snip

Hummmmm! I don't know how to play a Kazoo, besides sitting on my fence naked
would just get me a lot of splinters.

Ss

"Snag"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 11:25 AM

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Emmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I have lived in my house for 11 years, and since the day I moved in,
>> I have parked my Porsche 944 race car in my driveway. Last week,
>> the Austin police came by and told me I had 10 days to get rid of
>> it. The next day, the city sent a different guy over to tell me
>> that I had to hide all three of my Porsches behind a 6' fence. I
>> have no HOA where I live, but apparently I have a jerk for a
>> neighbor...
>
> Jerks aside, many towns have ordinances about unregistered cars. Hang a
> tag and pay registration and taxes and they don't care how
> many you have.

Not necessarily . I had a '58 Chevy 4X4 parked in my driveway for many years
. Tagged and insured . Also had a city code inspector that though I should
get rid of it . SOB dropped cites on me regularly for years , and every time
I had to prove the truck was operable .
On the other side , I had a half stripped 80 Honda Civic in the front yard
for over a year , never a word .
The difference ? A neighbor that decided she was gonna harass the whitey
outta her neighborhood . Seems the black inspector dude was in cahoots ...
He quit harassing me after he had me summoned to court . It was a nice
balmy 37 degrees out that February morning . He took one look at me in my
full leathers and decided to drop the whole thing . He had contacted me to
say that he was dropping the cite , but his manner when he addressed the
judge ..."Well , since Mr. Coombs hasn't taken this seriously enough to show
up in court ... " at which point I interrupted him . Wish I had a picture of
his eyes bugging out .
Haven't heard from him since , last I heard he asked to be transferred to
another part of town .
--

Snag aka OSG #1
'76 FLH "Bag Lady"
BS132 SENS NEWT
"A hand shift is a manly shift ."
<shamelessly stolen >
none to one to reply

Cc

"CW"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 1:01 AM

I can.
When I bought this place, I told the real estate agent that she would be
fired if she showed me anything within sight of a homeowners association.

"JR North" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners Association.
> I can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I want. How many of
> youse guys can say the same?
> JR
> Dweller in the cellar
>
> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>
> snip
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
> If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
> Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
> The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
> No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Dependence is Vulnerability:
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> "Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
> "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

TG

"Tom G"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 3:54 PM


"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I can.
> When I bought this place, I told the real estate agent that she would be
> fired if she showed me anything within sight of a homeowners association.
>
In the Northern Illinois county that I live in, the cities and the county
itself have started telling people how they must maintain the appearance of
their properties. Local landlord had a tenant who was behind on his rent
and because he also hadn't paid his gas bill, the gas was shut off. He
moved out when it got cold but left a pile of trash in front of the garage.
The county threatened the landlord with fines if it wasn't removed.
Landlord had gas turned back on and rented a truck to move the junk. As he
was loading up the truck to move the stuff to a storage unit, the tenant
shows up with a Sheriff's deputy who informs the landlord that he is
breaking the law because he hadn't served the tenant with eviction notice.
Remember, the tenant abandoned the property on his own (and had been gone 4
months). So, the landlord is forced to let the tenant move back in, leave
the gas on in his name, and go through the eviction process. County is
taking the landlord to court because the trash is still in front of the
garage...although they've stated that they will take into consideration, the
landlords problem with the tenant. The local governments are starting to
pass ordinances that regulate what you can have sitting in your back yard,
how high your grass can be, the condition of the paint job on your house,
and on and on. I'm in favor of some standards being set and enforced but
I'm afraid it just leads to the problems others have stated. Your neighbors
become tempted to call the law anytime you do something they don't like.

Tom G.

JF

"John Flatley"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

07/11/2006 9:38 PM

|
| Our HOA has a similar rule however it is aimed at
those that use their drive
| way as storage for vehicles. If you drive the car
weekly there is no
| problem. They just don't want to see cars setting up
on blocks and neither
| do I.
|

Been there, done that. Even been an HOA president
once. Before I understood what individual freedom is.
And what it means. Our rights give us freedom.
Exercising our rights is not always pretty.

But I will not live in any subdivision that is
preoccupied with the color of my house, the length of
my grass, what I drive or where on my property I park a
car, boat, truck, camper, motorcycle or roller skates.

This discussion reminds me of a study where statements
were read to people to get their reactions and their
opinions. Most people did not agree with the
statements or were against them.
The statements were a direct lift of sentences from the
U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Jack Flatley
Jacksonville, Florida


JS

Jim Stewart

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

07/11/2006 9:57 AM

JR North wrote:
> I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners Association.
> I can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I want. How many of
> youse guys can say the same?

I believe my next-door neighbor is already
doing it...

AR

"Allen Roy"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 1:52 AM


"Ed Huntress" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "JR North" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners Association. I
>>can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I want. How many of youse
>>guys can say the same?
>
> I could, but they'd make me move to where you live if I tried, or they'd
> put me in the loony bin.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress
>
>

I could as well, however the neighbors might object. Plus the fence would
hurt my arse if I tried to sit on it (old metal and wire fence).

Allen

Lr

"Leon"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 1:34 AM


"JR North" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners Association. I
>can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I want. How many of youse
>guys can say the same?
> JR


You can pity him, but not call him a fool. I pity the fool that lives next
to some one that sits naked on his fence and plays the Kazoo.

Hn

Han

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 2:13 AM

Ignoramus23068 <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> I would never, EVER buy a house with a homeowners association.
>
> i
>
I happily live in a home purchased knowing that deed restrictions apply,
including an architectural review committee. But then we live only 200
yards from my granddaughters, although they are out of sight and hearing
when I'm home.

See http://radburn.org

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Hn

Han

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 5:06 PM

"Tom G" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:QOn3h.3447$Tz.297@trndny01:

> In the Northern Illinois county that I live in, the cities and the
> county itself have started telling people how they must maintain the
> appearance of their properties. Local landlord had a tenant who was
> behind on his rent and because he also hadn't paid his gas bill, the
> gas was shut off. He moved out when it got cold but left a pile of
> trash in front of the garage. The county threatened the landlord with
> fines if it wasn't removed. Landlord had gas turned back on and rented
> a truck to move the junk. As he was loading up the truck to move the
> stuff to a storage unit, the tenant shows up with a Sheriff's deputy
> who informs the landlord that he is breaking the law because he hadn't
> served the tenant with eviction notice. Remember, the tenant abandoned
> the property on his own (and had been gone 4 months). So, the
> landlord is forced to let the tenant move back in, leave the gas on in
> his name, and go through the eviction process. County is taking the
> landlord to court because the trash is still in front of the
> garage...although they've stated that they will take into
> consideration, the landlords problem with the tenant. The local
> governments are starting to pass ordinances that regulate what you can
> have sitting in your back yard, how high your grass can be, the
> condition of the paint job on your house, and on and on. I'm in favor
> of some standards being set and enforced but I'm afraid it just leads
> to the problems others have stated. Your neighbors become tempted to
> call the law anytime you do something they don't like.
>
> Tom G.

An ostensibly very simple soul got a job as a sort of janitor (the VA
calls it environmental management services) through drug rehab. He just
about floored me by explaining to me that common sense was a misnomer, it
isn't very common at all. Your story confirms that.When are we going to
require proof of common sense from lawyers and government employees?

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Lr

"Leon"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 2:02 PM


"Jeff Burke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 04:32:09 GMT, "Leon" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>Naw, Dave... If you live in Houston, you can hardly avoid a HOA.
>
> What happens if you want to buy a house but you don't want to sign the HOA
> contract?

You look for another house. There is no contract IIRC, you simply abide by
the HOA rules and regulations as you would any other city law when you buy
in any particular city.
For the most part the HOA is a good thing. You often hear of the odd ball
situations where a person looses a house for what ever reason. Our HOA
demanded that my next door neighbor once and for all repair trim that was
falling off of his house and replace his roof that should have been replaced
years ago. It was an eye sore.

EP

"Edwin Pawlowski"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 4:40 PM


"Emmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have lived in my house for 11 years, and since the day I moved in, I have
>parked my Porsche 944 race car in my driveway. Last week, the Austin
>police came by and told me I had 10 days to get rid of it. The next day,
>the city sent a different guy over to tell me that I had to hide all three
>of my Porsches behind a 6' fence. I have no HOA where I live, but
>apparently I have a jerk for a neighbor...

Jerks aside, many towns have ordinances about unregistered cars. Hang a tag
and pay registration and taxes and they don't care how many you have.

MJ

Mark & Juanita

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

04/11/2006 11:10 PM

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 02:58:05 GMT, George Max
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 4 Nov 2006 16:35:34 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>As a workshop owner, here is something you might want to read before
>>moving into a home that is controlled a homeowner association.
>>
>>TMT
>
>Wow. The way it's portrayed makes it sound like living in one is
>comparable to living in a banana republic run by a corrupt dicatator.
>
>I'm sure glad there are no rules of those kinds around here and my
>neighbors don't care if I park my car on the driveway at night. And
>so on.

Some of the neighborhoods around here (not mine, by design, I didn't move
into one of them) are worse than that.
1) Don't leave your trash cans out overnight after trash day is over; you
get a nasty letter and possible fines
2) Don't park on the street, or allow any guests to park on the street
unless you have notified the HOA that you are having a party. You will be
fined. Yep, even if somebody who doesn't live in the HOA neighborhood
parks on the street while dropping something off for you, *you* get fined.
[jack-booted thugs, all]



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Lr

"Leon"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 4:32 AM


"David F. Eisan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>>I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners Association. I
>>>can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I want. How many of youse
>>>guys can say the same?
>
>> You can pity him, but not call him a fool. I pity the fool that lives
>> next to some one that sits naked on his fence and plays the Kazoo.
>
> Cat got your sence of humor tonight Leon?


Naw, Dave... If you live in Houston, you can hardly avoid a HOA.

BA

B A R R Y

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 2:48 PM

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 01:01:33 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I can.
>When I bought this place, I told the real estate agent that she would be
>fired if she showed me anything within sight of a homeowners association.

Saaaaame here!

Ii

Ignoramus23068

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 1:17 AM


I would never, EVER buy a house with a homeowners association.

i

MJ

Mark & Juanita

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

06/11/2006 10:33 PM

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 17:19:36 GMT, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"azotic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> "Jeff Burke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 04:32:09 GMT, "Leon" <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>Naw, Dave... If you live in Houston, you can hardly avoid a HOA.
>>>>
>>>> What happens if you want to buy a house but you don't want to sign the
>>>> HOA
>>>> contract?
>>>
>>
>> If your into metalworking, auto repair etc, you should not even consider
>> purchasing a home that
>> is goverened by the HOA-INDUSTRY period.
>
>All I can say is that not all HOA's are the same. I run a small wood
>working business out of my home with no problems.
>

Here in the HOA areas close to where we live (we only have an association
that maintains our private roads) you would probably get away with that as
long as you kept the garage doors closed except when parking your vehicles.
I think you can park your cars in the driveway, just not on the street.




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

MH

"Mike Henry"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

04/11/2006 8:03 PM


"JR North" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners Association. I
>can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I want. How many of youse
>guys can say the same?
> JR
> Dweller in the cellar
>
<snip>

They aren't necessarily bad, depending on what you want to do. Sitting
naked in the back yard of our townhome would certainly cause some "issues"
but ours has a policy of no overnight parking in the driveway and our two
cars have been parked right there for the past five weeks while a new tool
acquisition has been dealt with. Not a peep from anyone so far.

Mike

RB

Rex B

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 5:07 AM



JR North wrote:
> I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners Association.
> I can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I want. How many of
> youse guys can say the same?

I have no fence, and no kazoo.
Our HOA is voluntary and low-key.

Ee

"Emmo"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 4:01 PM

I have lived in my house for 11 years, and since the day I moved in, I have
parked my Porsche 944 race car in my driveway. Last week, the Austin police
came by and told me I had 10 days to get rid of it. The next day, the city
sent a different guy over to tell me that I had to hide all three of my
Porsches behind a 6' fence. I have no HOA where I live, but apparently I
have a jerk for a neighbor...

Austin is certainly changing, and not for the better...

"Tom G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:QOn3h.3447$Tz.297@trndny01...
>
> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I can.
>> When I bought this place, I told the real estate agent that she would be
>> fired if she showed me anything within sight of a homeowners association.
>>
> In the Northern Illinois county that I live in, the cities and the county
> itself have started telling people how they must maintain the appearance
> of their properties. Local landlord had a tenant who was behind on his
> rent and because he also hadn't paid his gas bill, the gas was shut off.
> He moved out when it got cold but left a pile of trash in front of the
> garage. The county threatened the landlord with fines if it wasn't
> removed. Landlord had gas turned back on and rented a truck to move the
> junk. As he was loading up the truck to move the stuff to a storage
> unit, the tenant shows up with a Sheriff's deputy who informs the landlord
> that he is breaking the law because he hadn't served the tenant with
> eviction notice. Remember, the tenant abandoned the property on his own
> (and had been gone 4 months). So, the landlord is forced to let the
> tenant move back in, leave the gas on in his name, and go through the
> eviction process. County is taking the landlord to court because the
> trash is still in front of the garage...although they've stated that they
> will take into consideration, the landlords problem with the tenant. The
> local governments are starting to pass ordinances that regulate what you
> can have sitting in your back yard, how high your grass can be, the
> condition of the paint job on your house, and on and on. I'm in favor of
> some standards being set and enforced but I'm afraid it just leads to the
> problems others have stated. Your neighbors become tempted to call the
> law anytime you do something they don't like.
>
> Tom G.
>

RB

Rex B

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 5:41 PM


Emmo wrote:
> I have lived in my house for 11 years, and since the day I moved in, I have
> parked my Porsche 944 race car in my driveway. Last week, the Austin police
> came by and told me I had 10 days to get rid of it. The next day, the city
> sent a different guy over to tell me that I had to hide all three of my
> Porsches behind a 6' fence. I have no HOA where I live, but apparently I
> have a jerk for a neighbor...
>
> Austin is certainly changing, and not for the better...

Austin is the bastion of Kalifornication in TX.

I'm in a susburban area of Ft Worth, an unincorporated development of 90
homes. All the homes are on at least an acre, and most date from the
1960s. We pay no city taxes, just county and school. We also have no
zoning, no building restrictions, no sewer system, though we have city
water.
We are surrounded by cities - Keller and Fort Worth. Not long after
we moved here (2001) Fort Worth decided they would annex us, along with
about a hundred other parcels scattered all over the county. Our
long-dormant HOA was resurrected just to give us a unified voice to
fight annexation. We were successful in doing so.
Today, for $25/year dues, the HOA is basically doing nothing, and
that's fine with me. In fact, I'd double my dues for a guarantee that
they continue on that course. Fortunately, most of the other homeowners
here are pretty adamant about being independent. And nobody gets their
knickers in a wad if the grass gets a little high.

Lr

"Leon"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 11:32 PM


"Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 4 Nov 2006 16:35:34 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>As a workshop owner, here is something you might want to read before
>>moving into a home that is controlled a homeowner association.
>>
> <snip>
>
> I really liked a house for sale and wanted to buy it until I read the
> rules about the Home Owners Association. The property had a pond in
> the backyard which was open to anyone in the association. It meant
> that neighbors could come and go in the backyard. To me, buying a
> home means having a little privacy so I bought another house that was
> NOT in an association. Besides, do home owners really want another
> monthly bill?

Most any HOA fee I have ever heard of is once a year. I pay $250 annually.

EH

"Ed Huntress"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

04/11/2006 8:14 PM

"JR North" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners Association. I
>can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I want. How many of youse
>guys can say the same?

I could, but they'd make me move to where you live if I tried, or they'd put
me in the loony bin.

--
Ed Huntress

Ss

"Snag"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 6:08 AM

Mark & Juanita wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 19:59:39 -0600, "Snag" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> JR North wrote:
>>> I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners
>>> Association. I can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I
>>> want. How many of youse guys can say the same?
>>> JR
>>> Dweller in the cellar
>>>
>>> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>>>
>>> snip
>>
>> I could , if I had a fence . Will a tree do ?
>
> Oh, I don't think so, the impale-you-Verdes around here are mighty
> spikey.
>
I was thinking more oak type trees . Got a few acres in north central
Arkansa we plan on moving to as soon as we can . Memphis Sucks !


--

Snag aka OSG #1
'76 FLH "Bag Lady"
BS132 SENS NEWT
"A hand shift is a manly shift ."
<shamelessly stolen >
none to one to reply

GM

George Max

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

07/11/2006 3:01 AM

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 05:39:02 GMT, Brian Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:


>If we want to paint our house with purple polka-dots, that's our
>business.

Funny. That reminds me that there's a guy a few miles from my place,
in a residential area, that's essentially done that. And has a very
overgrown yard. The house is painted purple, there's a sharply
contrasting color for the trim. I think some walls don't match
others.

I was told he did that years ago as a protest of sorts about Vietnam
MIAs.

A couple of years ago he had a second floor addition put on that looks
entirely normal. It's a very unusual looking house.

I doubt a HOA would allow that, free speech or not.

sD

[email protected] (Doug Miller)

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 2:50 AM

In article <[email protected]>, Ignoramus23068 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I would never, EVER buy a house with a homeowners association.

Well, it depends on the HOA. My neighborhood has an HOA, but membership is
voluntary, and there are no deed restrictions whatsoever. Dues are modest
($100/yr), and fund snow removal, regular patrols by a couple of deputy
sherrifs, and an annual neighborhood Independence Day parade.

I'm comfortable with that.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

JB

Jeff Burke

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

04/11/2006 9:49 PM

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 04:32:09 GMT, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Naw, Dave... If you live in Houston, you can hardly avoid a HOA.

What happens if you want to buy a house but you don't want to sign the HOA
contract?

BH

Brian Henderson

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

06/11/2006 5:39 AM

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 11:35:11 GMT, Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote:

>I really liked a house for sale and wanted to buy it until I read the
>rules about the Home Owners Association. The property had a pond in
>the backyard which was open to anyone in the association. It meant
>that neighbors could come and go in the backyard. To me, buying a
>home means having a little privacy so I bought another house that was
>NOT in an association. Besides, do home owners really want another
>monthly bill?

My wife and I decided years ago that we will never, ever, under any
circumstances, live anywhere that there's a homeowner's association.
If we want to paint our house with purple polka-dots, that's our
business. The last thing we want is to be told what we can do and
what we cannot do with our own property.

Cc

"CW"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 9:07 PM


"Peter Grey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:q%[email protected]...
>
>
> While doing a little research into the intrusiveness quotient of a HOA
> before one moves into a home governed by them is probably a good idea, I
> have to say that I don't find them all that much of a problem. We belong
to
> two (one of which is the oldest HOA in the country), and with the
exception
> of minor differences of opinion, having them in place is, on balance, a
good
> thing. They make sure the common areas are kept up, provide for community
> services and provide an avenue to deal with grievous indiscretions by
one's
> neighbors.

Sounds like an ideal place for a good little socialist.

PG

"Peter Grey"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 7:32 PM




"Too_Many_Tools" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> As a workshop owner, here is something you might want to read before
> moving into a home that is controlled a homeowner association.

While doing a little research into the intrusiveness quotient of a HOA
before one moves into a home governed by them is probably a good idea, I
have to say that I don't find them all that much of a problem. We belong to
two (one of which is the oldest HOA in the country), and with the exception
of minor differences of opinion, having them in place is, on balance, a good
thing. They make sure the common areas are kept up, provide for community
services and provide an avenue to deal with grievous indiscretions by one's
neighbors. Of course, how the board defines "grievous" may not equate with
my definition, but I'm betting that most boards rule within the bounds of
reason.

Having said that, I should comment that our HOA has not hassled me about
doing noisy metal work out of my garage, having a fair number of cars parked
on the street, or a number of other things I've done that are listed in the
bylaws as prohibited. Since the bylaws were written in 1910, the board
realizes that some rules are outdated and uses its discretion accordingly.

I suspect that HOAs are more useful in a city (I live in San Francisco)
where one lives cheek to jowl with others. If I had a couple of acres and
was out of sight of my neighbors, there'd be less benefit to a HOA, and I'd
be less inclined to join.

Regards,

Peter

MJ

Mark & Juanita

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

04/11/2006 11:04 PM

On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 19:59:39 -0600, "Snag" <[email protected]> wrote:

>JR North wrote:
>> I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners
>> Association. I can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I
>> want. How many of youse guys can say the same?
>> JR
>> Dweller in the cellar
>>
>> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>>
>> snip
>
>I could , if I had a fence . Will a tree do ?

Oh, I don't think so, the impale-you-Verdes around here are mighty
spikey.



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

GM

George Max

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 2:58 AM

On 4 Nov 2006 16:35:34 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>As a workshop owner, here is something you might want to read before
>moving into a home that is controlled a homeowner association.
>
>TMT

Wow. The way it's portrayed makes it sound like living in one is
comparable to living in a banana republic run by a corrupt dicatator.

I'm sure glad there are no rules of those kinds around here and my
neighbors don't care if I park my car on the driveway at night. And
so on.

GM

George Max

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 2:59 PM

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 02:50:59 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Ignoramus23068 <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>I would never, EVER buy a house with a homeowners association.
>
>Well, it depends on the HOA. My neighborhood has an HOA, but membership is
>voluntary, and there are no deed restrictions whatsoever. Dues are modest
>($100/yr), and fund snow removal, regular patrols by a couple of deputy
>sherrifs, and an annual neighborhood Independence Day parade.
>
>I'm comfortable with that.

That HOA sounds very reasonable.

Pp

Prometheus

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 7:40 PM

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 21:07:33 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Peter Grey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:q%[email protected]...
>>
>>
>> While doing a little research into the intrusiveness quotient of a HOA
>> before one moves into a home governed by them is probably a good idea, I
>> have to say that I don't find them all that much of a problem. We belong
>to
>> two (one of which is the oldest HOA in the country), and with the
>exception
>> of minor differences of opinion, having them in place is, on balance, a
>good
>> thing. They make sure the common areas are kept up, provide for community
>> services and provide an avenue to deal with grievous indiscretions by
>one's
>> neighbors.

See, now this is why those groups are good...

I do not, and will not live in an area where a board can tell me what
to do with my property. I try to keep the place up because it's mine,
and I understand that my neighbors might do something I wouldn't
necessarily care for. So, there are occasionally rusty cars parked on
the street, a dumpster parked in a driveway for a couple of weeks
(I've been guilty of that- but so has everyone else on the block at
one time or another), the house across the street could use a paint
job, and every once in a while I have to remind the neighbor that he
and his buddies have to get out of my yard because they get a little
too into their lawn bowling and start yelling right outside the
window. Hell, I even got woke up a couple of times this summer by the
guy next door excavating for a sidewalk with a full-size backhoe.

But I wouldn't have it any other way. For the odd instances of
annoyance from the neighbors, and occasional questionable taste with
which they furnish their front yards (there are an awful lot of
plastic deer, garden gnomes and chainsaw bears, along with kids' bikes
and swingsets in various states of repair,) I retain the right to do
things like let a pallet or two of bricks in the backyard for a couple
months while I work up the steam to put in a patio, have a bonfire
whenever I feel like it, and store fairly large piles of wood for use
as firewood and turning blanks. I'm planning on making a little
foundry soon to cast metal parts in the backyard, and that'll be ok,
too. We've got a vegetable garden and a couple of berry patches,
clover, crabgrass, and vines with country roses. It doesn't look like
a photo from a fancy landscaping magazine, but it looks just great to
me- and we enjoy fresh produce and berries, while the yard is green
all summer.

With all that being said, I am glad of the sterilized and restricted
neighborhoods. "Why?" is a question you'd have every right to ask
after what I said above, but it's really very simple- if there weren't
neighborhoods like that for people who were terribly concerned about
what everyone else was doing, there's a possibility that some of those
people might be tempted move to my neighborhood and start causing
trouble. Far as I'm concerned, if that's what they want, then the
controlled communities are just the place for them- and I'll just
remain far away from those places. I'm sure the feeling is mutual- I
don't want an award-winning postcard yard planted with meticulously
maintained Kentucky bluegrass and big old lady roses, and they don't
want to see or hear me cutting logs up all day with a chainsaw.
Nothing really wrong with either aestetic preference, we're all
different in the end.

If someone lives in a development, and gets a fine for breaking the
rules, then perhaps they need to decide if that is really the right
place for them. There are a few houses for sale on my block, some of
them quite nice, and neither I nor my neighbors would care if they
moved in and took up welding in their driveway or built a treehouse
for the kids. Or sunbathe in the front yard, or even start raising
free-range chickens- just so long as they can resist the urge to make
demands regarding what everyone else is *supposed* to be doing.

SB

"Steve B"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

08/11/2006 8:59 AM

I do reserve study audits for HOAs.

All we do is go out, inspect the property, count the square footage of
asphalt, curbs, sidewalks, landscape, etc.

We have nothing to do with the HOA management part of things. All the time
we have homeowners coming to us and telling us outrageous stories of HOA
horrors.

The state of Nevada has recently made some changes applicable to HOAs. The
federal government had to pass a law that applied to the display of US flags
in HOAs. But, they are still a major PITA.

Problem is, most people do not read or understand CC and R's. We have to
read them to see what the common elements are, and they are ambiguous,
contradictory, and in some cases, even have the wrong township listed as the
location of the property.

Anyone buying into a HOA deserves the treatment anyone gets when they kneel
down before a dominant entity.

Some here have said, "Oh, it's easy. Just close the garage door
............" and etc. I don't buy that for a second. Fire up a chop saw
or a router or a table saw and see how long you last.

Anyway, that's my opinion, and the only one that is valid.

Steve

DF

"David F. Eisan"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

04/11/2006 8:41 PM

>>I pity the poor fool, lives under the boot of a Homeowners Association. I
>>can sit on my fence naked and play the Kazoo if I want. How many of youse
>>guys can say the same?

> You can pity him, but not call him a fool. I pity the fool that lives
> next to some one that sits naked on his fence and plays the Kazoo.

Cat got your sence of humor tonight Leon?

:).

David.

Sr

"Siggy"

in reply to "Too_Many_Tools" on 04/11/2006 4:35 PM

05/11/2006 1:03 PM

Here is a simple list of things you might want to consider to avoid all of
these problems:

1) Learn about the deed restrictions *before* you buy the house. If you
can't live with them don't buy.
2) Once you move in, follow the rules.
3) If you think the board is screwing with you or your neighbors, get those
of you who feel the same to run for a board seat and take control of the
board yourself. If you can't get yourselves elected then chances are *you*
are the problem, not the board.

Robert

"Too_Many_Tools" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> As a workshop owner, here is something you might want to read before
> moving into a home that is controlled a homeowner association.
>
> TMT
>
>
> 1. "We Can't Wait to Get Our Hands on Your Money -- Or Even Your Home."
> A gardening violation. That's what landed Jeffrey DeMarco in hot water
> with his Rancho Santa Fe, Calif., homeowners association a few years
> ago: He planted too many roses on his four-acre property. Peeved, the
> association fined him monthly and sat back as the bills mounted. Then
> it placed a lien on his property and threatened to foreclose, according
> to DeMarco.
> He took the board to court, but lost on the grounds that he had
> violated the association's architectural design rules. (In addition to
> planting roses, he also had regraded the site.) In the end, he got
> stuck with the association's $70,000 legal bill and lost his home to
> the bank. "Mr. DeMarco came into the community and wanted to step
> outside the rules," says Walt Ekard, the association manager. "That's a
> detriment to everyone."
>
> Think it couldn't happen to you? Think again. Many people who belong to
> homeowners associations do not understand just how much power these
> groups have over them -- until they miss a payment or otherwise run
> afoul of the board. Fall a single day behind in paying your monthly
> dues, for instance, and the association may slap you with a fine. Fall
> 90 days behind and it may place a lien on your home and threaten to
> foreclose unless you pay up immediately. And because you often hand
> over the right of property trustee to the association when you agree to
> the by-laws, in some cases "you don't even get to go to court," says
> Evan McKenzie, a lawyer turned political science professor in Chicago
> and the author of Privatopia: Homeowner Associations and the Rise of
> Residential Private Government.
>
> Your best defense, if you can afford it: paying what the association
> says you owe, then arguing. Most associations work on a "balance
> forward" accounting system, in which your payments go toward the
> outstanding balance. By delaying, you'll just accumulate more late
> fees.
>
> 2. "We're More Secretive Than the CIA."
> Like corporate boards, which have a fiduciary responsibility to make
> disclosures to shareholders, a homeowners association board is supposed
> to be upfront with its members. But all too often, boards play things
> close to the vest. "The board will say everything is confidential and
> they can't tell you anything," says Willowdean Vance, president of the
> American Homeowner Association, a consumer group based in Lake Forest,
> Calif. "They're just on a power trip and it's absolutely deceitful."
>
> Some boards can be impossibly stubborn about disclosure. When a few
> members of the Columbia Foundation, a Maryland homeowners association,
> tried to gather some information, another faction of the board was so
> miffed at not being consulted first, that they went so far as to try
> and impose a rule that would have required members to get permission
> from the entire board before asking an outside agency for information.
> Larry Holzman, an attorney with Ochs, Holzman and Rosen, a firm
> specializing in homeowners litigation, says the rule was voted down
> only after a major publicity campaign put forth by the Maryland
> Homeowners Association.
>
> Homeowners who feel shut out should first write a letter to the board
> formally requesting access to the records, suggests Debra Bass, a
> spokeswoman for the Community Associations Institute. If the board is
> still mum, "ask for a letter from the association attorney that
> explains why you can't see the records," she adds. And if you still
> aren't satisfied with the board's response, move somewhere else, or
> hire a lawyer and sue. "The entire budget should be open and available
> to every homeowner," says Bass. "It should not be kept a secret."
>
> 3. "When in Doubt, We Sue."
> Board members will tell you that the last thing they want is to go to
> court. But it happens all the time. Experts estimate that in
> California, 75% of the homeowners associations are embroiled in a legal
> tangle of some kind. Chicago attorney Mark Pearlstein, who represents
> associations, figures that 60% of all condo boards and homeowners
> associations in Illinois are involved in some kind of legal suit.
>
> It's partly a reflection of our increasingly litigious society. But
> that's not the only reason. "The association lawyers tell the board to
> enforce every rule," says author Evan McKenzie. "They say, 'If you make
> one exception, the whole neighborhood falls into chaos.' But who gets
> paid every time you take an owner to court?"
>
> The lawyers, of course. But the litigation option can be hard for board
> members to resist. For instance, Margurette Nicholson was board
> president in 1991 when her association in Portola Hills, Calif., took a
> neighbor to court for installing a satellite dish in his backyard.
> "Nobody wanted to take this thing to court," says Nicholson. "But one
> of the homeowners was a lawyer and she was friends with the
> association's lawyer. They both campaigned for it. They both said we
> would win. I knew we wouldn't." Indeed, the owner's lawyer argued that
> the rule infringed on his client's First Amendment rights and he won.
> The board's legal fees: more than $40,000.
>
> 4. "You Won't Be Able to Sell When You Want."
> Besides being expensive, lawsuits often mean that you won't be able to
> sell your home when the time comes to move. "Would you want to go out
> and buy a property that was in the middle of a lawsuit?" asks Oliver
> Burford, executive director of the Executive Council of Homeowners, a
> trade group for California associations. "I wouldn't."
>
> Naturally, banks don't like lending money for homes on which lawsuits
> are pending, either. But there are exceptions. "There will always be
> some lenders who are willing to lend you the money," says Larry
> Holzman, a Maryland attorney. "The problem is you will not be able to
> get the same rates set up because banks have very strict lending
> criteria." If you find out a condo you're interested in is embroiled in
> litigation, use that information to negotiate a lower price, Holzman
> advises. If you're the seller of such a property, you'd better not hold
> out for top dollar.
>
> 5. "We're Poorer Than We Look."
> Every association has a reserve fund. It's like a savings account, and
> it's meant to be tapped when things go wrong or the property falls into
> disrepair. But often these funds are in terrible shape themselves.
>
> Ron Williams, an engineer with R.J. Moore, a consulting company that
> specializes in reserve accounting, once worked with a Northern Virginia
> condominium that had a paltry $100,000 set aside. "Closer to $1.25
> million would have been considered healthy," says Williams. When
> power-plant equipment gave out in early 1994, the association didn't
> have the $400,000 needed to replace it. The solution: A $2,400 special
> assessment to each of the 170 unit owners and a 22% increase in monthly
> dues.
>
> When it comes to checking up on a reserve fund, there are two good
> rules of thumb. First, about 20% to 25% of your dues should go toward
> the reserve fund, says Robert Nordlund, president of Association
> Reserves, a California company that specializes in reserve accounting.
> Second, there should be a long-term schedule for the reserve fund in
> the annual budget, including a projection of upcoming expenses for each
> common-area item: elevator repairs, painting, pool maintenance and so
> on. Reserve accountants suggest that the account should contain no less
> than 70% of the projected reserve budget. If the account is 30% funded
> or less, you can expect to be hit with some big assessments down the
> road.
>
> 6. "We Can Make Up the Rules as We Go Along."
> By law, a majority of the homeowners in an association have to approve
> any change in the bylaws. But many boards sidestep this by simply
> changing their house rules, which are as binding as bylaws but can
> usually be rewritten without asking all the homeowners. "Even if you
> were to be given the rules today, they're probably already out of date
> because [boards are] constantly making changes to the rules at whim,"
> says Elizabeth McMahon, a co-founder of the American Homeowners'
> Resource Center, a San Juan Capistrano, Calif., consumer group. "And
> they couldn't care less if you don't like them."
>
> At the Reston (Va.) Homeowners Association, for instance, only
> residents who used the swimming pools and tennis courts had to pay for
> their upkeep. But then in 1990, the board decided everyone ought to
> chip in, and it polled members. More than 70% of those who voted
> opposed the new rule, but it didn't matter. In the end, the board
> pushed it through anyway, and fees climbed 26%. "They disregarded the
> will of the people," says Thierry Gaudin, a Reston homeowner, "and that
> was wrong."
>
> It may be wrong, but it's the board's right. Period. "Bottom line, the
> board has to have the right to run the show," says attorney Benny Kass,
> who represents associations. About all you can do is keep up to speed
> on any changes the board makes in the rules, and if you don't like
> them, complain. The sooner you raise a fuss, the better: Rules that
> have been around for a while tend to be the hardest to change.
>
> 7. "We Don't Want You at Our Meetings."
> Monthly meetings are open to all homeowners. At least in theory. "A lot
> of times, however, meetings are moved at the last minute to limit the
> questions from homeowners or to keep information from them," says
> Willowdean Vance, president of the American Homeowner Association, a
> consumer group based in Lake Forest, Calif., which has fielded a number
> of complaints from homeowners who were shut out of meetings.
>
> Even when you can attend, the board may not acknowledge you. "Board
> members won't come out and say that they don't want you at their
> meetings," says Vicki Satern, co-founder of Common Ownership Alliance,
> a Washington, D.C., consumer group. "But basically, that's what their
> goal is."
>
> She knows from firsthand experience. The board at her Virginia vacation
> home once decided to hire a new management company. The problem: "They
> cost double the money," says Satern. "They wanted 6% of refurbishing
> contracts, 10% on engineering contracts, plus we had to buy their
> copyrighted software and the equipment to use it."
>
> Outraged, Satern raised her hand at a board meeting. "They ignored me,"
> she says. "Finally, I just spoke up. They yelled at me and said I was
> not allowed to speak." The new management company was hired.
>
> "When you come to a board meeting," says B. William Smink, the
> association's attorney, "you can sit, you can observe, but you cannot
> speak because the board is there to exercise its business judgment. And
> that's in compliance with national and state community-association
> laws." Satern would have done better, according to Smink, if she had
> contacted the board members individually before or after the meeting.
>
> Other options for homeowners who feel ignored: "Put your complaint in
> writing," says attorney Michael Nagle, who represents associations.
> "That's hard to ignore." If that gets you nowhere, petition other
> homeowners and call a special meeting to discuss the issue or to remove
> some of the board members. "And if it's really bad, take the board to
> court," suggests Nagle.
>
> 8. "We're in Over Our Heads."
> Most board members are volunteers, and they generally get their
> training on the job. Sometimes their inexperience means they bungle the
> bookkeeping, resulting in higher fees or assessments. Sometimes they
> fail to do their homework on outside contractors, meaning that you get
> shoddy workmanship in your common areas. And sometimes, as Mary Lindsey
> knows all too well, they can cause much bigger problems.
>
> While involved in a divorce in 1992, the Pomona, Calif., family
> therapist fell behind in her monthly dues. Back dues, late fees and
> interest quickly mushroomed, so Lindsey tried to work out a payment
> plan with the board and a credit-counseling service. But they couldn't
> agree on exactly how much was owed. "I thought I owed them less than
> $800," says Lindsey. "They said it was over $1,000." The dispute wound
> up in court as the association threatened to foreclose on her home.
>
> In the end, it turned out that Lindsey was right about the money she
> owed. The board had goofed. But the association won its lawsuit anyway.
> The judge ruled that she was wrong not to make back payments while the
> matter was in dispute. To her dismay, Lindsey was left with a $22,000
> bill for the association's legal costs, late fees and interest.
>
> 9. "We Work for Nothing but Get Compensated in Other Ways."
> Being on the board is a thankless job, board members will tell you.
> That's probably true much of the time. But strictly speaking, it's not
> always so. The thanks they often get may surprise you.
>
> Special favors and perks for board members are fairly common. The
> potential for abuse is inherent in the way these things are organized.
> The board members give themselves and their friends privileges and they
> never get hassled. The worst-case scenario: The board retains a
> contractor and board members get kickbacks.
>
> "This goes on, no question," says Virginia real estate attorney
> Fredrick H. Goldbecker. "It's usually done legally, so it's
> bulletproof, but that doesn't make it right." When the roof needs
> repairing, for example, "the board says the work needs to be done a
> certain way, and the only roofer in town who can do it that way is
> related to a board member," Goldbecker says. Because many associations
> have no formal system of checks and balances, homeowners often have no
> idea how their boards make decisions about contractors. About all you
> can do is keep a careful eye on the board. Big expenditures, no matter
> how mundane, are worth looking into.
>
> 10. "We're Incredibly Petty."
> In many associations being hard-nosed about the rules is practically
> the board's raison d'etre. "Some of these board members have nothing
> better to do. So instead of taking care of the property, they censor
> people's lifestyles," says Vicki Satern of Common Ownership Alliance.
> She needn't tell Allen Warshaw. To ward off a neighbor who had attacked
> him with a log, he asked his Rockville, Md., board to bend the rules.
> He wanted a six-foot fence, two feet taller than allowed. When the
> application was denied, he sued -- and lost. Warshaw wound up with the
> association's bills, too. The total: $23,000 in legal fees, court costs
> and interest.
>
> Humbled but determined, he built a shorter fence. "I wasn't really
> worried because the board had told me that they don't go out and
> measure fences," he says. As soon as the fence was up, several board
> members walked over to Warshaw's yard and measured it. And indeed, in
> some areas the fence was a few inches over four feet. The dispute
> continued. "They put a lien on my property," Warshaw says. "They took
> all my savings, and they're garnishing my paycheck. It's like I am a
> common criminal. It has been devastating." Says Jeffrey Van Grack, the
> association's attorney: "The board made numerous offers to try to work
> out the payments, but Mr. Warshaw refused."
>
> Sometimes the pettiness is more subtle. When one Virginia homeowner
> asked for permission to hang Christmas tree lights in 1992, the board
> didn't like the idea but didn't know how to prevent it. "We struggled
> with this one," says lawyer Benny Kass, who represented the
> association. "But we finally concluded that the restriction against
> hanging lights was valid because you were pounding nails into the wood,
> and that was a fire hazard." Ho-ho-ho.
>


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