Folks -
I can't think of any hard reason why this wouldn't be safe, but thot I'd
ask, since I'll be showing a shop full of spermlings the operation...
I want to cut a small channel in the center of a square ~2" x 24" it's for a
student's lamp project - I am going to rip it in half, then I wanted to use
the dado head at 45 degrees to cut a small channel for the lamp cord through
the center of each half and glue the whole mess back together.
Yes, I know I could do the same thing using a core box bit in the router
table - yes I know I could make two passes with each half of the stock and a
standard saw blade. - I want to show them that there are almost always more
than one or two ways to do things, and I already have the dado set on the
saw.
So, simply put, is it safe to cut dadoes with the blade tilted at an angle
other than 90/0 degrees? Thanks in advance for your feedback.
John Moorhead
John Moorhead wrote:
> Folks -
>
> I can't think of any hard reason why this wouldn't be safe, but thot I'd
> ask, since I'll be showing a shop full of spermlings the operation...
>
> I want to cut a small channel in the center of a square ~2" x 24" it's for a
> student's lamp project - I am going to rip it in half, then I wanted to use
> the dado head at 45 degrees to cut a small channel for the lamp cord through
> the center of each half and glue the whole mess back together.
>
> Yes, I know I could do the same thing using a core box bit in the router
> table - yes I know I could make two passes with each half of the stock and a
> standard saw blade. - I want to show them that there are almost always more
> than one or two ways to do things, and I already have the dado set on the
> saw.
>
> So, simply put, is it safe to cut dadoes with the blade tilted at an angle
> other than 90/0 degrees? Thanks in advance for your feedback.
Could you do it? Probably. But the blades are no longer meeting the
wood squarely and uniformly. The blade that would be cutting deeper
would be the first one to seize if there was a problem. If the blades
move in relation to each other and the carbides hit...well, I wouldn't
want to be in the room much less explaining to some kid's parents.
I think there might be better projects to demonstrate alternative
methods of construction. This one might be a better demonstration of
why it is better to err on the side of safety when it comes to
woodworking equipment.
R
Watch your clearances around the stack if you tilt it. On many saws,
there is only enough clearance available for a single saw blade tilted
at 45 degrees. A dado stack might hit the table. In other words the
saw was not designed to take a tilted stack. This is good enough
reason not to even attempt it.
Bob
Swingman wrote:
>
> Obviously, if you don't feel comfortable with a particular operation, or
> don't have the knowledge and equipment to perform it safely, don't do it.
I'd like to add to that, if you don't feel comfortable with a
particular operation, or feel comfortable and perhaps you shouldn't,...
> That said, it's a damn shame to irrationally miss out on one of the useful
> features of a tool that may actually do a job more safely than a
> "workaround".
You feel that using the dado head on an angle is safer than using a
router?
What lesson is the OP trying to teach the kids? Anything the rug rats
learn besides shop safety is gravy.
I just got off of the phone with Freud.
Freud, Inc.
218 Feld Avenue
High Point, NC 27263
(800) 334-4107
Their tech rep, Chad, just answered this specific question. His
answer, "Yeah, do _not_ do that. We don't recomment that as it puts
too much load on the whole setup."
I suppose that along with RTFM there should be CTSAA - call tech
support and ask.
R
Leon wrote:
> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Swingman wrote:
> > Freud, Inc.
> > 218 Feld Avenue
> > High Point, NC 27263
> > (800) 334-4107
> > Their tech rep, Chad, just answered this specific question. His
> > answer, "Yeah, do _not_ do that. We don't recomment that as it puts
> > too much load on the whole setup."
>
>
> Certainly if that was a dangerous set up there would be a warning issued
> with the dado set instructions indicating NOT to do that. My Forrest dado
> instructions did not indicate not to do it.
I understand your point, but a manual doesn't necessarily cover every
contingency and possible situation. Most of the time the manual is
created, or seems to be created, by lawyers with such brilliant advice
as, "Do not drop the router in a fish tank."
Frankly, I'd never considered tilting a stack dado. Never had the
need. The OP doesn't have the need - he's just trying to get tricky.
There's absolutely no reason for him to tilt it when a square cut would
work just fine for what he's trying to do. That's the 99.9% situation,
and probably the reason it's not mentioned in the manual.
I don't have any firsthand experience in the problems with tilting,
just an engineering background and distrust of non-uniform loading of
high speed whirling objects comprised of several parts.
A substantial amount of force is required when dadoing to keep the
piece flat on the table. Obviously the natural tendency is for the
blade to lift the piece away from the table. That is the situation
with the typical squared up blade dado. Now, if the dado blade is
tilted over, two things happen. One of the blades will be biting
deeper into the workpiece and will therefore have more
resistance/torque on it. The deeper cutting blade will be the first
one to slip if the arbor nut isn't cranked down nice and tight. The
result would be carbide hitting carbide, which, at the very least,
won't do the blade any good. The second thing that is happening to the
tilted dado is that the downward force is not putting a lateral
pressure on the deeper cutting blade. Again, no good can come of this.
It's obviously up to each person to safeguard themselves as they see
fit. If any adult with experience feels comfortable doing a particular
operation, it's their ass and their business. The situation is a
little different when an adult, trying something with which he is
unfamiliar, and uncomfortable (he wouldn't have asked the question
otherwise) is now getting tricky while teaching kids. Again, no good
can come of this.
R
"John Moorhead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> So, simply put, is it safe to cut dadoes with the blade tilted at an angle
> other than 90/0 degrees? Thanks in advance for your feedback.
>
> John Moorhead
>
This is done all the time. Yes it is just as safe as cutting at any other
angle.
"John Moorhead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Folks -
>
> I can't think of any hard reason why this wouldn't be safe, but thot I'd
> ask, since I'll be showing a shop full of spermlings the operation...
>
> I want to cut a small channel in the center of a square ~2" x 24" it's for
a
> student's lamp project - I am going to rip it in half, then I wanted to
use
> the dado head at 45 degrees to cut a small channel for the lamp cord
through
> the center of each half and glue the whole mess back together.
>
> Yes, I know I could do the same thing using a core box bit in the router
> table - yes I know I could make two passes with each half of the stock and
a
> standard saw blade. - I want to show them that there are almost always
more
> than one or two ways to do things, and I already have the dado set on the
> saw.
>
> So, simply put, is it safe to cut dadoes with the blade tilted at an angle
> other than 90/0 degrees? Thanks in advance for your feedback.
>
Hey John. I should think you might have a better lesson in demonstrating
the proper use of the proper tool for a given job. Lots of tools can be
used for things they weren't intended for and it doesn't take many lessons
for most people to figure that one out. What does seem to take a bit more
reinforcement is the concept of not cobbing the job.
Can it be done safely? I'm not sure I see an immediate reason why it can't,
but it sure will make a crummy product - all for the sake of showing that
you can use the wrong tool and still "do the job". Your groove is not going
to be square with the blade tilt you describe. I guess I just can't picture
what you're trying to do here. At the very least I can't understand why
you're complicating this with a blade tilt at all. Maybe it's my lack of
imagination...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Leon wrote:
> Certainly if that was a dangerous set up there would be a warning issued
> with the dado set instructions indicating NOT to do that. My Forrest dado
> instructions did not indicate not to do it.
Do you need someone to make you an instruction sheet that says "Do not
play in the road." ?
Duh. I sure hope that comment was tongue-in-cheek.
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 04:32:48 GMT, "John Moorhead"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>So, simply put, is it safe to cut dadoes with the blade tilted at an angle
>other than 90/0 degrees? Thanks in advance for your feedback.
Simple: If you don't know what you are doing, and don't know common
rules of safety, you shouldn't be teaching to adults, let alone
children. Unless this is just another troll [which I strongly suspect
but took the bait anyhow], you are out of your friggin mind. Get off
the beaten path: Teach what you know. Try selling shoes.
"John Moorhead" wrote in message
> So, simply put, is it safe to cut dadoes with the blade tilted at an angle
> other than 90/0 degrees? Thanks in advance for your feedback.
I have absolutely no problem with doing it, and take the same safety
precautions that you would use with any other non-through cut
IME, it is just one of the reasons to use a table saw/dado stack, instead of
a router, to cut dadoes/grooves.
YMMV ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05
John Moorhead wrote:
> Folks -
>
> I can't think of any hard reason why this wouldn't be safe, but thot I'd
> ask, since I'll be showing a shop full of spermlings the operation...
>
> I want to cut a small channel in the center of a square ~2" x 24" it's for a
> student's lamp project - I am going to rip it in half, then I wanted to use
> the dado head at 45 degrees to cut a small channel for the lamp cord through
> the center of each half and glue the whole mess back together.
>
> Yes, I know I could do the same thing using a core box bit in the router
> table - yes I know I could make two passes with each half of the stock and a
> standard saw blade. - I want to show them that there are almost always more
> than one or two ways to do things, and I already have the dado set on the
> saw.
>
> So, simply put, is it safe to cut dadoes with the blade tilted at an angle
> other than 90/0 degrees? Thanks in advance for your feedback.
To what effect? Why not just use a narrower dado, and cut each half to
half the depth of the dado's width?
er
--
email not valid
"GeeDubb" wrote in message
> Talk about your black and white answers! YES.....NO.....YES.....NO.
That's because there are an increasing number of folks around here lately
who, although they _think_ they know the answer to a question posed, don't
really have the hands-on experience or knowledge to back up the thought
process.
I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but this particular thread points
that out quite nicely ... and more particularly so because it has a strong,
and arguably irrational, basis in fear.
Obviously, if you don't feel comfortable with a particular operation, or
don't have the knowledge and equipment to perform it safely, don't do it.
That said, it's a damn shame to irrationally miss out on one of the useful
features of a tool that may actually do a job more safely than a
"workaround".
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05
"RicodJour" wrote in message
> You feel that using the dado head on an angle is safer than using a
> router?
That question cannot be answered without knowledge of the problem that needs
to be solved, but my safety point should be obvious even to the most obtuse.
> What lesson is the OP trying to teach the kids? Anything the rug rats
> learn besides shop safety is gravy.
What to teach or not teach is based on a myriad of factors, just two being
the judgement of the teacher and the maturity level of the student.
However, if you will re-read the OP you will see that was NOT the question
as "simply put" by the OP, nor is it the one being addressed here.
> I just got off of the phone with Freud.
> Their tech rep, Chad, just answered this specific question. His
> answer, "Yeah, do _not_ do that. We don't recomment that as it puts
> too much load on the whole setup.">
> I suppose that along with RTFM there should be CTSAA - call tech
> support and ask.
An excellent idea ... with a caveat. If Chad is answering the phone, I would
immediately suspect his qualifications to answer the question, and his
pseudo physics reasoning about "load" points that out further.
As for RTFM, Freud does not address the issue in any of the literature that
came with my Freud dado stack, nor did Amana with my Amana stack.
... and, for both the above, in this litigious age, just as with "Chad on
the phone", a prudent "abundance of precaution" legal defense would be to
discourage anyone who _needs_ to ask the question.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05
"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> You feel that using the dado head on an angle is safer than using a
> router?
In my case I feel that using a router any time over using a dado set is
probably safer. But tilting the dado set does not add danger over using it
90 degrees to the table. If that were true, using a miter gauge to cut
dados at an angle would be just as dangerous because one side of the blade
has more load as it enters the wood and using a sacrificial fence to cut
rabbet's would be dangerous because the side of the dado set inside the
sacrificial fence would not be cutting wood and would cause stress on the
set up also.
John Moorhead wrote:
> I want to cut a small channel in the center of a square ~2" x 24"
it's for a
> student's lamp project - I am going to rip it in half, then I wanted
to use
> the dado head at 45 degrees to cut a small channel for the lamp cord
through
> the center of each half and glue the whole mess back together.
I don't like it.
No good reason, but my gut doesn't like it.
Lew
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "John Moorhead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> So, simply put, is it safe to cut dadoes with the blade tilted at an
>> angle other than 90/0 degrees? Thanks in advance for your feedback.
>>
>> John Moorhead
>>
>
> This is done all the time. Yes it is just as safe as cutting at any other
> angle.
>
Not really replying directly to Leon but......
Talk about your black and white answers! YES.....NO.....YES.....NO.
I would do it if I already had the dado cutters in the table saw. It's no
less safe than any other cut but in John's case I'd certainly run a sample
cut prior to class to correctly identify any problems he might incur.
It always goes better the second time!
Gary (and Guess who needs to chill)
Safe or not, the question is if you "can" physically tilt
the dado stack.
I have done a number tilted at 20 or so degrees for
the lower member in a bench back, but 45 might be a
problem.
I never tried this, so I admit I don't know.
If you can, I would create a "zero clearance" throat plate
by securing a large piece of hardboard on the saw table
and raising the dado stack up through the piece.
This will be a much safer surface to rip on and will not
allow any material to "dip down" into the blade throat
during the cutting process.
John Moorhead wrote:
> Folks -
>
> I can't think of any hard reason why this wouldn't be safe, but thot I'd
> ask, since I'll be showing a shop full of spermlings the operation...
>
> I want to cut a small channel in the center of a square ~2" x 24" it's for a
> student's lamp project - I am going to rip it in half, then I wanted to use
> the dado head at 45 degrees to cut a small channel for the lamp cord through
> the center of each half and glue the whole mess back together.
"Dave Nay" wrote in message
> Do you need someone to make you an instruction sheet that says "Do not
> play in the road." ?
LOL ... corporate lawyers seem to think it necessary to say "professional
driver on closed circuit" in car commercials, or "router not included" in
router jig advertisements, so do you think they would miss something as
dangerous as its been made out to be in this thread in a product manual?
> Duh. I sure hope that comment was tongue-in-cheek.
What's "duh" IMO is the blind leading the blind with an irrational fear
based on pseudo science.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05
In article <[email protected]>,
"John Moorhead" <[email protected]> wrote:
> So, simply put, is it safe to cut dadoes with the blade tilted at an angle
> other than 90/0 degrees? Thanks in advance for your feedback.
Like Mr. Horse says on the Ren & Stimpy Show:
"No sir, I don't like it."
As ricodjour pointed out, there will be an unevenly distributed load on
one side of the stack.
Can it be done? Yes.
Can it be done safely? Probably.
Should you teach it as a method? Probably not.
r
"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Swingman wrote:
> Freud, Inc.
> 218 Feld Avenue
> High Point, NC 27263
> (800) 334-4107
> Their tech rep, Chad, just answered this specific question. His
> answer, "Yeah, do _not_ do that. We don't recomment that as it puts
> too much load on the whole setup."
Certainly if that was a dangerous set up there would be a warning issued
with the dado set instructions indicating NOT to do that. My Forrest dado
instructions did not indicate not to do it.
"Dave Nay" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>> Certainly if that was a dangerous set up there would be a warning issued
>> with the dado set instructions indicating NOT to do that. My Forrest
>> dado instructions did not indicate not to do it.
>
> Do you need someone to make you an instruction sheet that says "Do not
> play in the road." ?
So because you think it is dangerous it is? Go with that. With today's law
suit hungry attorneys a company would most likely be found negligent if
there was a problem with this set up considering how often it is used on a
daily basis.
Instead of tilting the blade, how about a 45degree
aux fence, so you pass the edge of the board flush to the
table saw top??
John
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 04:32:48 GMT, "John Moorhead"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Folks -
>
>I can't think of any hard reason why this wouldn't be safe, but thot I'd
>ask, since I'll be showing a shop full of spermlings the operation...
>
>I want to cut a small channel in the center of a square ~2" x 24" it's for a
>student's lamp project - I am going to rip it in half, then I wanted to use
>the dado head at 45 degrees to cut a small channel for the lamp cord through
>the center of each half and glue the whole mess back together.
>
>Yes, I know I could do the same thing using a core box bit in the router
>table - yes I know I could make two passes with each half of the stock and a
>standard saw blade. - I want to show them that there are almost always more
>than one or two ways to do things, and I already have the dado set on the
>saw.
>
>So, simply put, is it safe to cut dadoes with the blade tilted at an angle
>other than 90/0 degrees? Thanks in advance for your feedback.
>
>John Moorhead
>