"Eric Lund" <[email protected]>
: The edges of the grinding particles having an arbitrary orientation
: indicates clearly that on some scale, friction will apply, since the
: particles will clearly not apply a refined shearing force.
I have an old Scientific American article saying that there are two kinds of
action.
Some particles are so shaped that they act as cutting tools and form
shavings (of a kind).
Others have a ploughing action.
Jeff G
--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
Email address is username@ISP
username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
Website www.amgron.clara.net
On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 21:57:02 -0330, Dan Parrell wrote:
> I would be afraid of the grind stone for two reasons first been,if you take
> metal away,there's no putting it back and second if the grinding wheel is
> used for other purposes and isn't dressed properly ie' small nicks and
> uneveness it could cause other complications and as well may heat up and
> change the hardness composition or temper of the edge which would fail. This
> would lead me back to hand dressing the chisel.There's an interesting
> article in januarys popular woodworking magazine by Nick Engler called Very
> Scary Sharp. He's designed a honing guide complete with plans, it's a worth
> while venture for precision sharpening
That's the link I gave you - the original Scary Sharp (TM) referred to in
Nick's article.
-DOug
> Andy Dingley wrote:
>
> > American spelling often varies from UK English. Many of these are
> > traceable back to Webster compiling his dictionary and deliberately
> > choosing what he regarded as the "simplest" spelling.
>
ICBW but I was under the impression that much of the spelling differences
between Us English and British English occurred after the 1780s. And it
was
the British that changed their spelling.
i.e. "color" is the origional spelling of the word
ARM
On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 11:38:53 -0500, Alan McClure <[email protected]>
wrote:
>> And Webster's isn't even a dictionary, it's a political tract for
>> spelling reform.
>
>Please elucidate.
American spelling often varies from UK English. Many of these are
traceable back to Webster compiling his dictionary and deliberately
choosing what he regarded as the "simplest" spelling.
On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 22:22:30 -0330, Dan Parrell wrote:
> I have the issue in front of me, get it doug it's certainly worth seeing,
> the link don't show the plans or the photos
I understand and I have the article. I was pointing out that the link I
gave is the same one as is referrenced in Nick's article. Nick's honing
jig is a value add to scary sharp as well as his mention of the
alternatives to glass.
-Doug
"RWS" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<ti0Jb.188198$8y1.602180@attbi_s52>...
> What is the best angle to grind chisels? I use them to clean up work, pare
> of slight amounts, clean mortises, etc....And after I grind, what angle to I
> hone? Thanks. Robert
I use 30 degrees with good results. Exact angle unimportant, just
make sure the two angles meet "sharply"
I found some old stanley 45 "irons" and measured the angle...
all were exactly 35 degrees.
"FOW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I second that. 25 degrees then hone 1-2 degrees 26 - 27 degrees. Hollow
> grinding will make your chisels weak though. NO HAMMERS on them. Just
wooden
> mallets to TAP them home. DON'T hollow grind Japanese Chisels, EVER ! Too
> brittle for that, they chip bad.
> Try 20 degrees for paring chisels. I would use a 5x11/2 or or 2 inch SLOW
> wet wheel and jig. Or use a lot of water to grind VERY slow, then hone up
to
> 8000 grit water stone. I use up to 4000 grit. My chisels are so sharp that
I
> shave my arm and the hair won't grow back for 3-4 weeks afterword.
> Be steady and consistant with your angles.
> JIGS MAN, JIGS !
>
My Tormek hollow grinds everything, chisels, plane blades, whatever. My
edges last a long time. I used to scary sharp. I have a full set of
waterstones, and know how to use them. Heck, my mortice chisels are all
done on waterstones. But the Tormek, with it's jigs and simple setup, gives
great results in very little time, and I usually resharpen because I feel
guilty, not because the edges are actually dull. They seem to last just
about forever.
OBTW, I don't have any laminated blades, and I agree that I would not hollow
grind a laminated blade.
Cheers,
Eric
"Juergen Hannappel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Eric Lund" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
> [...]
>
> > grinding. Grinding is merely the action of removing material through
> > friction.
>
> Not at all. Grinding is removing material in (small) chips with
> "geometrically undefined tools", since the edges of the grinding
> particles have an arbitrary orientation.
>
Uh. OK. I got my definition from a dictionary (several, in fact). AFAIK,
wet stones, oil stones, leather strops and wheels with honing compound,
grinding wheels, sandpaper and any other sharpening media mentioned here all
have particles with arbitrary orientation. Even the file, while not truly
arbitrary, is not so precise that it could not be considered arbirary in
use. Beyond that, your definition is merely a refinement of the dictionary
definition.
Cheers,
Eric.
"Jeff Gorman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Eric Lund" <[email protected]>
>
> : The edges of the grinding particles having an arbitrary orientation
> : indicates clearly that on some scale, friction will apply, since the
> : particles will clearly not apply a refined shearing force.
>
> I have an old Scientific American article saying that there are two kinds
of
> action.
>
> Some particles are so shaped that they act as cutting tools and form
> shavings (of a kind).
>
> Others have a ploughing action.
>
OK, the idea of a cutting action is to reduce friction to increase cutting
efficiency, but I've yet to see any form of edge tool, much less an
arbitrary orientation material that cuts with zero friction. There may be
some super science going on with things like lasers, magnetics and possibly
even superconductors, but I'm pretty sure you won't find any of those in my
shop, other than the laser in my compound miter saw, and it doesn't do the
cutting, just the pointing.
Cheers,
Eric
I second that. 25 degrees then hone 1-2 degrees 26 - 27 degrees. Hollow
grinding will make your chisels weak though. NO HAMMERS on them. Just wooden
mallets to TAP them home. DON'T hollow grind Japanese Chisels, EVER ! Too
brittle for that, they chip bad.
Try 20 degrees for paring chisels. I would use a 5x11/2 or or 2 inch SLOW
wet wheel and jig. Or use a lot of water to grind VERY slow, then hone up to
8000 grit water stone. I use up to 4000 grit. My chisels are so sharp that I
shave my arm and the hair won't grow back for 3-4 weeks afterword.
Be steady and consistant with your angles.
JIGS MAN, JIGS !
"WORSS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It is common to "grind" chisels. When honing no longer produces an
> acceptable edge grinding is called for. I use a Baldor slow speed grinder
> with a 120 grit wheel...usually at a 25 degree angle. After putting a
> hollow grind on the tip, I then hone at the angle produced by the tip and
> the heel. The advantage of grinding in this manner is that you don't need
> to hone the entire bevel....just the tip and heel. Therefore, honing goes
> much faster. Over time, the hollow grind will be removed by honing. When
> you no longer have that hollow grind...regrind the chisel.
>
> Bill
>
>
> "Dan Parrell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > good god man you don't "Grind" a chisel !
> > ooooooh the humanity. Where did you start ? You have excelled to making
> > "Mortises" etc.... and you don't know how to shapen a chisel? Me thinks
> you
> > are trolling and need to change your bait
> > "RWS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:ti0Jb.188198$8y1.602180@attbi_s52...
> > > What is the best angle to grind chisels? I use them to clean up work,
> pare
> > > of slight amounts, clean mortises, etc....And after I grind, what
angle
> to
> > I
> > > hone? Thanks. Robert
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
"FOW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> But the hollow grind on a 10 in. wheel can be honed out too fast for
> me.Krenov School taught us to use a hand cranked 5 inch grinder to grind
our
> chisels and irons.
> Good luck finding a hand cranker though.
"Honed out too fast." Honestly, I don't even know what that means. At
90rpm, even graded to 220 grit, it won't remove material fast, and with the
water bath, the irons don't even get warm. The key to the Tormek's speed is
once the irons have already been done. Subsequent sharpenings need to
remove nearly no material, so it goes very fast.
You talk about the weakness of a hollow grind. Well on a 5" wheel, you will
get a much weaker edge than a 10" wheel gives. The larger the wheel, the
flatter the bevel.
Cheers,
Eric
So. Those people in the UK talk funny. :)
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> American spelling often varies from UK English. Many of these are
> traceable back to Webster compiling his dictionary and deliberately
> choosing what he regarded as the "simplest" spelling.
>
good god man you don't "Grind" a chisel !
ooooooh the humanity. Where did you start ? You have excelled to making
"Mortises" etc.... and you don't know how to shapen a chisel? Me thinks you
are trolling and need to change your bait
"RWS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ti0Jb.188198$8y1.602180@attbi_s52...
> What is the best angle to grind chisels? I use them to clean up work, pare
> of slight amounts, clean mortises, etc....And after I grind, what angle to
I
> hone? Thanks. Robert
>
>
Not that I disagree but I've never taken a chisel to a grinding wheel
never.Every one of mine are hand rubbed with a flat bastard and then stroped
across a whet stone and fine emery cloth or water paper producing excellent
results.
"WORSS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It is common to "grind" chisels. When honing no longer produces an
> acceptable edge grinding is called for. I use a Baldor slow speed grinder
> with a 120 grit wheel...usually at a 25 degree angle. After putting a
> hollow grind on the tip, I then hone at the angle produced by the tip and
> the heel. The advantage of grinding in this manner is that you don't need
> to hone the entire bevel....just the tip and heel. Therefore, honing goes
> much faster. Over time, the hollow grind will be removed by honing. When
> you no longer have that hollow grind...regrind the chisel.
>
> Bill
>
>
> "Dan Parrell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > good god man you don't "Grind" a chisel !
> > ooooooh the humanity. Where did you start ? You have excelled to making
> > "Mortises" etc.... and you don't know how to shapen a chisel? Me thinks
> you
> > are trolling and need to change your bait
> > "RWS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:ti0Jb.188198$8y1.602180@attbi_s52...
> > > What is the best angle to grind chisels? I use them to clean up work,
> pare
> > > of slight amounts, clean mortises, etc....And after I grind, what
angle
> to
> > I
> > > hone? Thanks. Robert
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
I would be afraid of the grind stone for two reasons first been,if you take
metal away,there's no putting it back and second if the grinding wheel is
used for other purposes and isn't dressed properly ie' small nicks and
uneveness it could cause other complications and as well may heat up and
change the hardness composition or temper of the edge which would fail. This
would lead me back to hand dressing the chisel.There's an interesting
article in januarys popular woodworking magazine by Nick Engler called Very
Scary Sharp. He's designed a honing guide complete with plans, it's a worth
while venture for precision sharpening
For me It's a labour of love. It's the way I was educated.
"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 19:39:36 -0330, Dan Parrell wrote:
>
> > Not that I disagree but I've never taken a chisel to a grinding wheel
> > never.Every one of mine are hand rubbed with a flat bastard and then
stroped
> > across a whet stone and fine emery cloth or water paper producing
excellent
> > results.
>
> Many folks around these parts subscribe to this method:
>
> http://www.shavings.net/SCARY.HTM
>
> -Doug
Hi Robert,
For general woodworking, you'd grind to nominally 25 deg, then hone a
secondary bevel at 30 deg. For a fine bevelled paring chisel, you'd drop
these angles by 5 deg. For a heavy duty sash or mortice chisel, you'd up
them by 5 deg.
However, at the end of the day, these figures are nominal. Most
experienced woodworkers don't use a honing guide - they lay the chisel on
the stone on its grinding bevel, then lift it by a few degrees to commence
honing. I couldn't honestly tell you what my ultimate honing angle is -
it's all done by feel, so it may be a couple of degrees either way from the
recommended norms. Whatever you find that works for you.
It's worth while, when you start breaking in a new chisel, to hone the back
it completely flat -simply lay it flat on your stone, then work away until
the first inch or so at the business end is a uniform shade. For ultimate
sharpness, you'd really want a mirror finish (on a very fine stone) on the
back, but for general use, a uniform grey colour is fine.
Then when you hone the edge, you work away until when you run your thumb
across the back of the edge (not along it!). you feel a raised burr. This
means that you've honed the edge so fine that it's started to turn over
under the your honing pressure.. Stop honing the bevel at this stage, then
turn the chisel over flat on its back and give it a few more strokes flat on
the stone to turn this burr (sometimes called the "roafe" or the "wire
edge") back again. Then you can either strop it a few times on your palm or
a leather strop, or gently draw it edgewise through a piece of wood to break
off the burr and leave a clean sharp edge.
Beware when you're grinding on a high speed grinder - you need to keep the
edge as cool as possible at all times, which means dunking it frequently.
Don't let it get so hot that it starts to blue. A stone which runs at low
speed in a water bath is much better, if you have access to one.
Cheers,
Frank.
"RWS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ti0Jb.188198$8y1.602180@attbi_s52...
> What is the best angle to grind chisels? I use them to clean up work, pare
> of slight amounts, clean mortises, etc....And after I grind, what angle to
I
> hone? Thanks. Robert
>
>
I have the issue in front of me, get it doug it's certainly worth seeing,
the link don't show the plans or the photos
"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 21:57:02 -0330, Dan Parrell wrote:
>
> > I would be afraid of the grind stone for two reasons first been,if you
take
> > metal away,there's no putting it back and second if the grinding wheel
is
> > used for other purposes and isn't dressed properly ie' small nicks and
> > uneveness it could cause other complications and as well may heat up and
> > change the hardness composition or temper of the edge which would fail.
This
> > would lead me back to hand dressing the chisel.There's an interesting
> > article in januarys popular woodworking magazine by Nick Engler called
Very
> > Scary Sharp. He's designed a honing guide complete with plans, it's a
worth
> > while venture for precision sharpening
>
> That's the link I gave you - the original Scary Sharp (TM) referred to in
> Nick's article.
>
> -DOug
"FOW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Good luck finding a hand cranker though.
Hell, I see them at flea markets all the time.
I have had good luck grinding on a belt sander with about 150 grit.
Good luck with initial flattening on the B/S too.
Tony
>>>>>You talk about the weakness of a hollow grind. Well on a 5" wheel, you
will
>>>>>get a much weaker edge than a 10" wheel gives. The larger the wheel,
the
>>>flatter the bevel.
Cheers,
Eric
*******I see your point there, as there will be more contour, with less meat
behind the cutting edge,**********
<<<<<<<But the hollow grind on a 10 in. wheel can be honed out too fast for
> me.Krenov School taught us to use a hand cranked 5 inch grinder to grind
>>our chisels and irons.
<<<"Honed out too fast." Honestly, I don't even know what that means. At
<<<<90rpm, even graded to 220 grit, it won't remove material fast, and with
the
<<<<<<<<<<<<<water bath, the irons don't even get warm.
*******I think He means after you hollow grind on the 10" wheel, It will
be closer to a flat bevel,(less contour) and when you then hone on a bench
stone, the "hollow grind" will be removed sooner.***
thanks, Tony
On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 19:39:36 -0330, Dan Parrell wrote:
> Not that I disagree but I've never taken a chisel to a grinding wheel
> never.Every one of mine are hand rubbed with a flat bastard and then stroped
> across a whet stone and fine emery cloth or water paper producing excellent
> results.
Many folks around these parts subscribe to this method:
http://www.shavings.net/SCARY.HTM
-Doug
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 05:56:20 GMT, "Eric Lund"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I got my definition from a dictionary (several, in fact).
>
> Bad move. Dictionaries are handy for spellings and The Only Real
> Dictionary is useful for historical etymology, but even the Oxford
> falls apart when it comes to definitions of technical terms.
>
> And Webster's isn't even a dictionary, it's a political tract for
> spelling reform.
>
And still, there's nothing in the extended definition that can't get back to
the basic dictionary definition, of which Webster's was not among those
selected. Furthermore, I believe the basic contention I replied to was that
you do not grind a chisel. I would contend that using a wet stone is as
much grinding as using a motor mounted "grinding" stone.
The two definitions were:
1. "Grinding is merely the action of removing material through friction."
2. "Not at all. Grinding is removing material in (small) chips with
"geometrically undefined tools", since the edges of the grinding
particles have an arbitrary orientation."
I include the not at all, because I dispute that point. I would agree with
more specifically, but I certainly do not agree with not at all. Both
definitions begin essentially the same. Small chips is only slightly more
specific, and, by the reasonable man legal precept, be implied in the
original definition. Now, I know we use the reasonable man thing here in
the backwoods of the colonies. Since most American states base their law on
British law, I presume that you might have some familiarity with that
concept. The geometrically undefined tools is another way of saying that no
specific tool is defined here for the purpose, and so says exactly NOTHING.
The edges of the grinding particles having an arbitrary orientation
indicates clearly that on some scale, friction will apply, since the
particles will clearly not apply a refined shearing force. I'm not sure I'm
making that final point as generally as I should, but I think you get the
idea.
Since we are talking about woodworking tool, I would contend that the
simpler definition is certainly adequate.
Cheers,
Eric
But the hollow grind on a 10 in. wheel can be honed out too fast for
me.Krenov School taught us to use a hand cranked 5 inch grinder to grind our
chisels and irons.
Good luck finding a hand cranker though.
"Eric Lund" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "FOW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I second that. 25 degrees then hone 1-2 degrees 26 - 27 degrees. Hollow
> > grinding will make your chisels weak though. NO HAMMERS on them. Just
> wooden
> > mallets to TAP them home. DON'T hollow grind Japanese Chisels, EVER !
Too
> > brittle for that, they chip bad.
> > Try 20 degrees for paring chisels. I would use a 5x11/2 or or 2 inch
SLOW
> > wet wheel and jig. Or use a lot of water to grind VERY slow, then hone
up
> to
> > 8000 grit water stone. I use up to 4000 grit. My chisels are so sharp
that
> I
> > shave my arm and the hair won't grow back for 3-4 weeks afterword.
> > Be steady and consistant with your angles.
> > JIGS MAN, JIGS !
> >
>
> My Tormek hollow grinds everything, chisels, plane blades, whatever. My
> edges last a long time. I used to scary sharp. I have a full set of
> waterstones, and know how to use them. Heck, my mortice chisels are all
> done on waterstones. But the Tormek, with it's jigs and simple setup,
gives
> great results in very little time, and I usually resharpen because I feel
> guilty, not because the edges are actually dull. They seem to last just
> about forever.
>
> OBTW, I don't have any laminated blades, and I agree that I would not
hollow
> grind a laminated blade.
>
> Cheers,
> Eric
>
>
"Dan Parrell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Not that I disagree but I've never taken a chisel to a grinding wheel
> never.Every one of mine are hand rubbed with a flat bastard and then
stroped
> across a whet stone and fine emery cloth or water paper producing
excellent
> results.
It doesn't matter what tool you use, when you are shaping the bevel, you are
grinding. Grinding is merely the action of removing material through
friction. Me, I use a Tormek water wheel and leather wheel. I flatten the
backs on waterstones, but I find the Tormek much faster and more accurate
than the waterstones for doing the bevels.
OBTW, honing and polishing are also grinding. Just much finer forms.
Cheers,
Eric
Andy Dingley wrote:
> American spelling often varies from UK English. Many of these are
> traceable back to Webster compiling his dictionary and deliberately
> choosing what he regarded as the "simplest" spelling.
Troo enuf, but its not as bad as it kood hav bin.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
An old boatbuilder / cabinet maker in Maine taught me to use a scythe stone
to put the hollow on a chisel. Took him about two minutes to go from a flat
bevel(as in no hollow) to a real nice hollow.
"Anthony Diodati" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >>>>>You talk about the weakness of a hollow grind. Well on a 5" wheel,
you
> will
> >>>>>get a much weaker edge than a 10" wheel gives. The larger the wheel,
> the
> >>>flatter the bevel.
>
> Cheers,
> Eric
> *******I see your point there, as there will be more contour, with less
meat
> behind the cutting edge,**********
>
> <<<<<<<But the hollow grind on a 10 in. wheel can be honed out too fast
for
> > me.Krenov School taught us to use a hand cranked 5 inch grinder to grind
> >>our chisels and irons.
>
> <<<"Honed out too fast." Honestly, I don't even know what that means. At
> <<<<90rpm, even graded to 220 grit, it won't remove material fast, and
with
> the
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<water bath, the irons don't even get warm.
>
> *******I think He means after you hollow grind on the 10" wheel, It will
> be closer to a flat bevel,(less contour) and when you then hone on a bench
> stone, the "hollow grind" will be removed sooner.***
>
> thanks, Tony
>
>
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 05:56:20 GMT, "Eric Lund"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I got my definition from a dictionary (several, in fact).
Bad move. Dictionaries are handy for spellings and The Only Real
Dictionary is useful for historical etymology, but even the Oxford
falls apart when it comes to definitions of technical terms.
And Webster's isn't even a dictionary, it's a political tract for
spelling reform.
It is common to "grind" chisels. When honing no longer produces an
acceptable edge grinding is called for. I use a Baldor slow speed grinder
with a 120 grit wheel...usually at a 25 degree angle. After putting a
hollow grind on the tip, I then hone at the angle produced by the tip and
the heel. The advantage of grinding in this manner is that you don't need
to hone the entire bevel....just the tip and heel. Therefore, honing goes
much faster. Over time, the hollow grind will be removed by honing. When
you no longer have that hollow grind...regrind the chisel.
Bill
"Dan Parrell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> good god man you don't "Grind" a chisel !
> ooooooh the humanity. Where did you start ? You have excelled to making
> "Mortises" etc.... and you don't know how to shapen a chisel? Me thinks
you
> are trolling and need to change your bait
> "RWS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:ti0Jb.188198$8y1.602180@attbi_s52...
> > What is the best angle to grind chisels? I use them to clean up work,
pare
> > of slight amounts, clean mortises, etc....And after I grind, what angle
to
> I
> > hone? Thanks. Robert
> >
> >
>
>
25deg to 30deg then a micro-bevel of ~2deg
Bob S.
(the other RWS...;-)
"RWS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ti0Jb.188198$8y1.602180@attbi_s52...
> What is the best angle to grind chisels? I use them to clean up work, pare
> of slight amounts, clean mortises, etc....And after I grind, what angle to
I
> hone? Thanks. Robert
>
>
"Eric Lund" <[email protected]> writes:
[...]
> grinding. Grinding is merely the action of removing material through
> friction.
Not at all. Grinding is removing material in (small) chips with
"geometrically undefined tools", since the edges of the grinding
particles have an arbitrary orientation.
--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
mailto:[email protected] Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23