Jointer Planing

For my own clarification, why is the last edge always done on the
table saw? I remember in shop class we would do a similiar sequence,
using only a jointer and a table saw. I think it was jointer, table
saw, jointer, tablesaw. I could be wrong, but just want the logic
behind the method

[email protected] (Bill Wallace) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Yes! If this is waht you can afford it is much better than not having
> it at all. It will take a bit longer, you'll have to work a bit slower
> but it will work as well as anything else if you take the time.
>
> Also:
>
> 1. Jointing edges: You start to be less efficent as the board lenght
> to table length ratio increases. A 6" table top jointer can easily
> joint a 24" board edge perfectly. Not so easy for a 6' edge.
>
> 2. Planing: This ratio is less important for planing but you can
> really only plane one side on the jointer. Then you need a planer to
> get parallel faces.
>
> Starting with a 4 sided rough board; on the joiner joint one edge,
> plane one face; on the planer plane the other face; on the table saw
> parallel the other edge.
>
> BW
>
>
> "Tim" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > amateur woodworker here who has found that I'm going to need a planer and
> > jointer if I'm ever going to have any square projects
> >
> > my question is can you plane wood sufficiently on one of those 6 1/8" table
> > top jointers?

Tim wrote:

> amateur woodworker here who has found that I'm going to need a planer and
> jointer if I'm ever going to have any square projects
>
> my question is can you plane wood sufficiently on one of those 6 1/8"
> table top jointers?

Sort of, but...

A) these benchtop machines really are pretty seriously crappy, and all but
useless (mine is the cheapo Delta with crappy aluminum tables)

B) jointers are for jointing, not planing. Their job is to get something
flat. What they can't do securely is get two faces of a board parallel to
each other. That's what a planer is for.

I don't have a planer, and neither room nor money for one. I'm not very
good at getting a dead flat perfect surface with hand planes, but so far
the stuff I'm doing only demands that one side of the board be perfect
anyway. So what I'm doing is face jointing one face, then marking off the
other face with a marking gauge, and hand planing that face down to the
line.

This would work better if I had a real jointer. This one leave streaks on
the faces of the boards. I think it's actually the counterweights on the
cutterhead burnishing the wood. All in all, this jointer was a pretty
regretable decision. I might well be better off with no jointer at all,
which would force me to suck it up and waste wood until I finally get the
knack of (hand) jointing an edge square to the face properly.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

mac davis wrote:

>>length. No guarantee that the edges are truly square to the faces. No
>>guarantee that either the edges or the faces are straight.
>>>
> <snip> or the friggin ends!!
> I buy S4S or better due to lack of tools... and it's really rare that
> either end is cut square in either direction..

I saw a real gem today. Walnut. Put one end flat on the floor, and it made
a great big (. Quality.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 08:40:21 -0600, "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>> Can you get good results from a modest machine? May I refer you back to
>> the recent thread "A poor workman and his tools..."
>
>I missed that thread. There are some good thoughts there (not to mention
>some of the usual, but benevolent BS). One of the themes probably applies
>here. A good workman probably researches and then selects the best tools
>that he can afford, even if he has to wait a while on the 'afford' part.
>
>The predecessor to my Powermatic 54A was a mid-50's vintage Craftsman 4"
>tabletop, mounted on a wooden stand. It might not be considered desirable
>by today's standards but the old machine was built like a fireplug and could
>cut a pretty good edge. I could even surface one side of 6" or 7" wide
>material, good enough for the surface planer - if I held my tongue right and
>was careful. Joining longer stock over 5 or 6' was possible but I might put
>more wood on the floor before I was pleased. Overall It did the job if I
>did my job with diligence.
>
>Now that I have had the Powermatic for a few months would I take the
>Craftsman back?
>
>Well, Hell NO!
>
but, as I think that thread covered, with your skill and experience,
you have a much better chance of producing quality work with the
Craftsman than someone like me would have with your powermatic...

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 00:24:58 -0500, Silvan
<[email protected]> wrote:

<snip>
>B) jointers are for jointing, not planing. Their job is to get something
>flat. What they can't do securely is get two faces of a board parallel to
>each other. That's what a planer is for.
<snip>

thanks, you answered my question...

seems to me that planers are for face and jointers are for edge, but
not having either yet, I'm only going by knowledge got here..

sort of like asking if you can play ping pong with a golf ball.. same
shape and about the same size, but designed for different tasks..

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (slindars) wrote:
>For my own clarification, why is the last edge always done on the
>table saw? I remember in shop class we would do a similiar sequence,
>using only a jointer and a table saw.

No thickness planer in there anywhere?

> I think it was jointer, table saw, jointer, tablesaw.

Don't see how that's gonna work...

>I could be wrong, but just want the logic
>behind the method

Steps are:
A. joint one face flat.
B. joint one edge straight, and square to that face.
C. plane the unjointed face parallel to the jointed face.
D. rip unjointed edge parallel to the jointed edge.

They don't have to be done in exactly this order, but A must come first, and B
must come before D. So if it's easier for you to do them A-C-B-D, or A-B-D-C,
that's fine.

Actually, my work flow looks more like A-B, A-B, A-B, A-B... until I've
jointed every board, then C,C,C,C... until they're all planed, etc. Just
easier for me to not have to move the wood from one machine to another any
more than is necessary. A bonus is that everything has been surfaced to a
consistent thickness before it hits the table saw; that way, I can use the
offcuts as stickers when I'm stacking lumber. :-)

The reason for doing it this way is that, while jointers make things straight
and flat, they can't make two opposite surfaces parallel. You can joint one
face of a board straight and flat, but if you want the opposite side to be
straight, flat, *and* parallel to the first side, you can't guarantee that on
a jointer. That's what a planer is for.

Similarly, you can joint one edge straight and square to one of the faces. You
can even joint the opposite edge straight and square to the same face. But
there's no guarantee that it will be parallel to the first edge. That's what
the table saw is for.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Mike
Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
>
> If you think the S4S lumber from the Borg is flat, then your definition of
> flat is a little more generous than mine.

I don't know what you look for then Doug. I have certainly found plenty of
flat - by anyone's definition at places including BORGs. Maybe you are
pushing the point to rediculous levels?

> >
> >Lots of ways. Many here do not joint for glue up. You can tack or tape
a
> >guide board to the material to be cut, for example.
>
> And how do you get a straight edge on that guide board?

Come on Doug. You can't find a straight piece of wood? Without a jointer?
If not, then your standards far exceed the tolerances applicable to
woodworking and are therefore excessive, or you're being difficult.

>
> > I have cut thousands of
> >linear feet of lumber - at least many, many hundreds this way, and glue
up
> >was just fine. It is categorically not an absolute requirement to run a
> >board through a jointer. The other alternative is to touch it up with a
> >plane, which admitedly is jointing, but the point remains that a jointer
and
> >a planer are not necessarily must have tools given the brief description
of
> >the problem the OP gave.
>
> And what about the faces? You simply can't make a twisted or bowed board
flat
> without jointing it in _some_ fashion. It doesn't matter whether you use a
> jointer, or a jointer plane, or a sled in a planer, or whatever -- you
still
> have to joint the wood _somehow_ if you want to be sure that it's straight
and
> flat.

You didn't read what I have posted throughout this discussion. You're
focused on picking on minutia and ignoring the point of the conversation.
We're not talking about - nor have been talking about taking a twist out of
twisted boards. You're throwing that in again as a red herring.

> >
> >>
> >> And I haven't seen a table saw yet, that's capable of producing a
> >straight,
> >> flat _face_ on an uneven board.
> >
> >Come on over.
>
> ROTFLMAO.

Maybe you need a new saw.

>
> Please describe how you would make a bowed board flat, using a table saw.

There you go again. Do you really feel the OP was frustrated because he was
using bowed and twisted wood and at wit's end because he couldn't turn out a
square project?

>
> >The
> >jointer, as a tool, is no better for making square than a table saw is.
>
> I didn't claim that it was, but rather that a jointer *will* make straight
> *and* flat, a board that isn't. A table saw will not.

Never said it would - you are the one that threw that into the discussion
even though it's totally irrelevant to the point under discussion.

>
> >They both rely on a fence that is perpendicular to the cutting surface
and
> >they both use adjustable fences. Square requires attention to detail in
> >setting the fence.
>
> True, but not really relevant.

Amazing.

>
> >For flat - select lumber better.
>
> No, for flat, buy it rough and surface it yourself. The stuff you buy from
the
> Borg isn't flat.

Just what micro measure of deviation are you seeing Doug? You either look
for the worst pieces so that you can comment on them or you don't have the
same quality of lumber in your area that I do.

>
> >
> >Our experiences differ then. I've had great success in getting S4S that
met
> >your criteria. Didn't require much more than going to the store and
buying
> >it.
>
> No, you've had great success in getting S4S that meets *your* criteria.
And if
> the wood you're buying is good enough for your purposes, more power to
you.
>

Fine. If your criteria is so strict that thousands of an inch are all that
critical to you, then more power to you. Has it occurred to you that
perhaps the OP might not be quite that picky and that he doesn't need the
feeling that it's somehow now flatter, just because he ran it through his
own planer?

Honestly Doug, if you're seriously contending that one cannot purchase flat
lumber at the BORG or anywhere else, as I had originally contended, then by
all means, plane your little heart out, but don't bother to suggest that the
standards of others is somehow less than yours because of this.

> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >I wouldn't be spending more money on jointers and planers if you're
> >having
> >> >problems with fundamentals. Chances are you'll still have those
problems
> >> >even with the new tools. Especially with the jointer. If your cuts
with
> >a
> >> >table saw are giving you problems, you're probably going to have like
> >> >problems with a jointer. It's not a wonder tool, no matter how good
the
> >> >jointer is. I'd go back to the basics.
> >>
> >> IMO that conclusion, while possibly correct, is completely unwarranted
by
> >the
> >> scant facts provided in the OP. He could very well be having trouble
with
> >his
> >> table saw cuts precisely because he _doesn't_ have a jointer. If the
wood
> >> isn't flat, it's not possible to get consistently good results on the
> >table
> >> saw no matter what you do.
> >>
> >
> >That's just a bad assertion Doug. Agreed the facts were scant so our
> >responses are subject to our interpretation of what the OP meant by what
he
> >said, but what you're suggesting above is a wood problem. In my first
> >paragraph I put in the assumption that he was using S4S and if that's the
> >case I still contend that 99% of the time he does not need a jointer and
a
> >planer to make this wood ready for use.
>
> Depends on your definition of "ready for use" I guess. The lumber at the
Borg
> apparently meets your definition. It doesn't meet mine; that's why I buy
my
> lumber rough, and surface it myself.

Good for you. A world of people around you turn out craftsman quality
pieces with this stuff though so I'll chose to not credit your point.

>
> >Rough cut is a different story, but
> >I did not address that. In fact with rough cut, he can have it planed by
> >the supplier and easily cut it true with his table saw.
>
> Yes, he can -- but if it isn't flat before being planed, it isn't going to
be
> flat after planing either. That's what a jointer is for.

You keep coming back to this point and I just don't understand your
insistance on it. I'm making the assumption the OP is not trying to build
something with twisted, bowed stock and you're making the assumption he is.
Impass.

>
> > I have a jointer
> >and I seldom use it for this application. In fact - I seldom use it. If
I
> >had to get rid of one of my power tools it could easily be my jointer
that
> >would be the first to go with little impact on my ability to produce
quality
> >work.
> >
>
> That's amazing.
>

Nah - that's life.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

>>There's no guarantees of anything in life Doug, but 99% of the time one can
>>purchase any lumber they need from local suppliers, ether BORG or smaller
>>suppliers, that is finished ready to go. Faces are parallel, edges are true
>>and square.
>
>If you think the S4S lumber from the Borg is flat, then your definition of
>flat is a little more generous than mine.

You have to look at the wood before you buy it- you can't just grab it
and run, but there's always at least a few that are flat as can be.
At the supplier I get my wood from, it is always flat- they have own a
millwork shop in another city, and both joint and plane it after
kiln-drying it and before putting it in the rack because they care
about the wood.

>>Lots of ways. Many here do not joint for glue up. You can tack or tape a
>>guide board to the material to be cut, for example.
>
>And how do you get a straight edge on that guide board?

With your saw. I kind of get the feeling you're not getting
everything you could be out of your tablesaw.

>>> And I haven't seen a table saw yet, that's capable of producing a
>>straight,
>>> flat _face_ on an uneven board.
>>
>>Come on over.
>
>ROTFLMAO.

Mine can do it, and it's a just a benchtop. You can't do it with a 6"
wide piece of stock, but it'll work on plenty of narrower boards.

>>Bad assumption. Use the saw to make the board straight and square.
>
>Please describe how you would make a bowed board flat, using a table saw.

Attach it to a flat board with some double-sided tape and run the
guide board along the fence, removing a little at a time until you've
got a straight face.

>>For flat - select lumber better.
>
>No, for flat, buy it rough and surface it yourself. The stuff you buy from the
>Borg isn't flat.

It sure can be.

>>> The only way to be sure of getting wood that is straight, flat, and square
>>is
>>> to joint and plane it yourself. Every hardwood dealer I know of will plane
>>> wood to any thickness you want, but I haven't encountered one yet that
>>will
>>> joint it first.

The one I buy from joints the wood first. Perhaps you need a better
supplier?

>>That's just a bad assertion Doug. Agreed the facts were scant so our
>>responses are subject to our interpretation of what the OP meant by what he
>>said, but what you're suggesting above is a wood problem. In my first
>>paragraph I put in the assumption that he was using S4S and if that's the
>>case I still contend that 99% of the time he does not need a jointer and a
>>planer to make this wood ready for use.
>
>Depends on your definition of "ready for use" I guess. The lumber at the Borg
>apparently meets your definition. It doesn't meet mine; that's why I buy my
>lumber rough, and surface it myself.

It's certainly cheaper that way, and a great way to buy wood. I just
don't see why you're arguing that you can't buy decently prepared S4S
anywhere. It's expensive, and you have to look at it before you buy
it, but there's straight, square S4S in any place that sells wood-
even Menards, and they're the worst supplier of wood I've ever
encountered anywhere.

>> I have a jointer
>>and I seldom use it for this application. In fact - I seldom use it. If I
>>had to get rid of one of my power tools it could easily be my jointer that
>>would be the first to go with little impact on my ability to produce quality
>>work.
>>
>
>That's amazing.

Why is that amazing? I don't have a jointer at all, and don't plan on
getting one. If a board needs straightening, I use a hand plane- but
I usually just try to buy decently prepared S3S stock in the first
place. The extra cost is well worth the space that a jointer is not
taking up in my shop to me!


Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

"max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BDD53EE7.381E6%[email protected]...
>I don't know about that. I went from a 12 inch behemoth to a 6 inch Delta
> portable with the aluminum tables and I can make it work just fine. Of
> course I can't joint a 10 foot 4x6, but have been doing fine with 4 foot
> lengths so far and probably could go further if needed.
> max


Yeah - That is what I like about the Powermatic 54. The 60+ inch table lets
me work with longer stock pretty easily. Kinda crowds my garage shop, but
worth it.

I don't know about that. I went from a 12 inch behemoth to a 6 inch Delta
portable with the aluminum tables and I can make it work just fine. Of
course I can't joint a 10 foot 4x6, but have been doing fine with 4 foot
lengths so far and probably could go further if needed.
max

> 6" table top jointers come in various lengths and quality. This is another
> case of getting what you pay for. Some of the cheapo's with inadequate
> table adjustment mechanisms will lead you to never-ending frustration.
> However, there are some good table top or stand mounted machines offered by
> Delta, Jet and others.
>
> Actually 6" is a pretty common jointer width for hobby and some pro shops.
> I have a heavier 6" Powermatic 54A and love it.
>
>

yes, if your are careful and use the right technique.

Len
"Tim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> amateur woodworker here who has found that I'm going to need a planer and
> jointer if I'm ever going to have any square projects
>
> my question is can you plane wood sufficiently on one of those 6 1/8"
> table top jointers?
>

"mac davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 13:20:20 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>, "Mike
Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>Geeze Tim, I can't believe anyone hasn't suggested that you might want
to
> >>look at what else might be going wrong if you can't get a square project
at
> >>this point. Jointers and do their job and there are a lot out there
that
> >>will do it well, even for small money, but I'd start looking closer to
home
> >>for problems. If you're using finished lumber from the store instead of
> >>rough cut lumber, I sure wouldn't jump into the purchase of a planer.
> >
> >Buying S4S from a dealer is no guarantee of getting lumber that's
straight,
> >flat, and square. All you can depend on is that the two faces are
parallel,
> >and that the board is the same width along its entire length. No
guarantee
> >that the edges are truly square to the faces. No guarantee that either
the
> >edges or the faces are straight.
> >>
> <snip> or the friggin ends!!
> I buy S4S or better due to lack of tools... and it's really rare that
> either end is cut square in either direction..

Hmmmmm.... wouldn't it have to be S6S if the ends were cut square?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Buying S4S from a dealer is no guarantee of getting lumber that's
straight,
> flat, and square. All you can depend on is that the two faces are
parallel,
> and that the board is the same width along its entire length. No guarantee
> that the edges are truly square to the faces. No guarantee that either the
> edges or the faces are straight.
> >

There's no guarantees of anything in life Doug, but 99% of the time one can
purchase any lumber they need from local suppliers, ether BORG or smaller
suppliers, that is finished ready to go. Faces are parallel, edges are true
and square.

> >Square - how about your saw? You should be able to get a cut from your
> >tablesaw that will all but eliminate the need for a jointer.
>
> Ummmm.... no, not at all. If you don't joint one edge of a board straight,
how
> on earth are you going to get a straight cut from the table saw?

Lots of ways. Many here do not joint for glue up. You can tack or tape a
guide board to the material to be cut, for example. I have cut thousands of
linear feet of lumber - at least many, many hundreds this way, and glue up
was just fine. It is categorically not an absolute requirement to run a
board through a jointer. The other alternative is to touch it up with a
plane, which admitedly is jointing, but the point remains that a jointer and
a planer are not necessarily must have tools given the brief description of
the problem the OP gave.

>
> And I haven't seen a table saw yet, that's capable of producing a
straight,
> flat _face_ on an uneven board.

Come on over.

>
>
> >If not, it's
> >time to look at the set up of your tablesaw or your technique. You'd be
> >surprised at how well a well tuned saw will produce an edge ready for
glue
> >up.
>
> *If* the board is straight, flat, and square to begin with -- which of
course
> is the reason that jointers and planers exist.

Bad assumption. Use the saw to make the board straight and square. The
jointer, as a tool, is no better for making square than a table saw is.
They both rely on a fence that is perpendicular to the cutting surface and
they both use adjustable fences. Square requires attention to detail in
setting the fence. For flat - select lumber better. Granted, the planer
will make bad lumber better, but that's not the original point of my reply.

>
> >Planers do a good job of sizing the thickness of wood but is that what
> >you need? Do you build a lot of things that require wood that is not of
a
> >standard dimension?
>
> The only way to be sure of getting wood that is straight, flat, and square
is
> to joint and plane it yourself. Every hardwood dealer I know of will plane
> wood to any thickness you want, but I haven't encountered one yet that
will
> joint it first.

Our experiences differ then. I've had great success in getting S4S that met
your criteria. Didn't require much more than going to the store and buying
it.

>
> >
> >I wouldn't be spending more money on jointers and planers if you're
having
> >problems with fundamentals. Chances are you'll still have those problems
> >even with the new tools. Especially with the jointer. If your cuts with
a
> >table saw are giving you problems, you're probably going to have like
> >problems with a jointer. It's not a wonder tool, no matter how good the
> >jointer is. I'd go back to the basics.
>
> IMO that conclusion, while possibly correct, is completely unwarranted by
the
> scant facts provided in the OP. He could very well be having trouble with
his
> table saw cuts precisely because he _doesn't_ have a jointer. If the wood
> isn't flat, it's not possible to get consistently good results on the
table
> saw no matter what you do.
>

That's just a bad assertion Doug. Agreed the facts were scant so our
responses are subject to our interpretation of what the OP meant by what he
said, but what you're suggesting above is a wood problem. In my first
paragraph I put in the assumption that he was using S4S and if that's the
case I still contend that 99% of the time he does not need a jointer and a
planer to make this wood ready for use. Rough cut is a different story, but
I did not address that. In fact with rough cut, he can have it planed by
the supplier and easily cut it true with his table saw. I have a jointer
and I seldom use it for this application. In fact - I seldom use it. If I
had to get rid of one of my power tools it could easily be my jointer that
would be the first to go with little impact on my ability to produce quality
work.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Tim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> amateur woodworker here who has found that I'm going to need a planer and
> jointer if I'm ever going to have any square projects
>
> my question is can you plane wood sufficiently on one of those 6 1/8"
table
> top jointers?
>
>

Geeze Tim, I can't believe anyone hasn't suggested that you might want to
look at what else might be going wrong if you can't get a square project at
this point. Jointers and do their job and there are a lot out there that
will do it well, even for small money, but I'd start looking closer to home
for problems. If you're using finished lumber from the store instead of
rough cut lumber, I sure wouldn't jump into the purchase of a planer.

Square - how about your saw? You should be able to get a cut from your
tablesaw that will all but eliminate the need for a jointer. If not, it's
time to look at the set up of your tablesaw or your technique. You'd be
surprised at how well a well tuned saw will produce an edge ready for glue
up. Planers do a good job of sizing the thickness of wood but is that what
you need? Do you build a lot of things that require wood that is not of a
standard dimension?

I wouldn't be spending more money on jointers and planers if you're having
problems with fundamentals. Chances are you'll still have those problems
even with the new tools. Especially with the jointer. If your cuts with a
table saw are giving you problems, you're probably going to have like
problems with a jointer. It's not a wonder tool, no matter how good the
jointer is. I'd go back to the basics.

Now on the other hand, if your post is an exaggeration, in the time honored
manner of justifying the purchase of new tools...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Tim" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> amateur woodworker here who has found that I'm going to need a planer
> and jointer if I'm ever going to have any square projects
>
> my question is can you plane wood sufficiently on one of those 6 1/8"
> table top jointers?

Universal, apply anywhere answer: It depends. On your jointer. On your
technique. On your workpiece. On your stock. On your experience. On
your goals.

Max can do a lot of things, that others of us 'find challenging'. That
comes from a career as a craftsman in wood. Many of the rest of us take
things more slowly, and set our sights accordingly.

Can you get good results from a modest machine? May I refer you back to
the recent thread "A poor workman and his tools..."

Patriarch,
learning to love the older, longer Stanley products...

Yes! If this is waht you can afford it is much better than not having
it at all. It will take a bit longer, you'll have to work a bit slower
but it will work as well as anything else if you take the time.

Also:

1. Jointing edges: You start to be less efficent as the board lenght
to table length ratio increases. A 6" table top jointer can easily
joint a 24" board edge perfectly. Not so easy for a 6' edge.

2. Planing: This ratio is less important for planing but you can
really only plane one side on the jointer. Then you need a planer to
get parallel faces.

Starting with a 4 sided rough board; on the joiner joint one edge,
plane one face; on the planer plane the other face; on the table saw
parallel the other edge.

BW


"Tim" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> amateur woodworker here who has found that I'm going to need a planer and
> jointer if I'm ever going to have any square projects
>
> my question is can you plane wood sufficiently on one of those 6 1/8" table
> top jointers?

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 00:24:58 -0500, Silvan
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
><snip>
>>B) jointers are for jointing, not planing. Their job is to get something
>>flat. What they can't do securely is get two faces of a board parallel to
>>each other. That's what a planer is for.
><snip>
>
>thanks, you answered my question...
>
>seems to me that planers are for face and jointers are for edge, but
>not having either yet, I'm only going by knowledge got here..

Not quite.

Jointers are for faces *and* edges: make a face straight and flat, then make
an edge straight and square to the face.

Then you take the board to the planer, to make the *other* face parallel to
the one you jointed.

Finally, it goes to the table saw, to have the other edge ripped parallel to
the jointed one.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> mac davis wrote:
>
> >>length. No guarantee that the edges are truly square to the faces. No
> >>guarantee that either the edges or the faces are straight.
> >>>
> > <snip> or the friggin ends!!
> > I buy S4S or better due to lack of tools... and it's really rare that
> > either end is cut square in either direction..
>
> I saw a real gem today. Walnut. Put one end flat on the floor, and it
made
> a great big (. Quality.
>

Yup - that's why you have to look at the wood. Bad wood comes in all sizes,
and species.
--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 14:23:35 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"mac davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 13:20:20 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, "Mike
>Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >>Geeze Tim, I can't believe anyone hasn't suggested that you might want
>to
>> >>look at what else might be going wrong if you can't get a square project
>at
>> >>this point. Jointers and do their job and there are a lot out there
>that
>> >>will do it well, even for small money, but I'd start looking closer to
>home
>> >>for problems. If you're using finished lumber from the store instead of
>> >>rough cut lumber, I sure wouldn't jump into the purchase of a planer.
>> >
>> >Buying S4S from a dealer is no guarantee of getting lumber that's
>straight,
>> >flat, and square. All you can depend on is that the two faces are
>parallel,
>> >and that the board is the same width along its entire length. No
>guarantee
>> >that the edges are truly square to the faces. No guarantee that either
>the
>> >edges or the faces are straight.
>> >>
>> <snip> or the friggin ends!!
>> I buy S4S or better due to lack of tools... and it's really rare that
>> either end is cut square in either direction..
>
>Hmmmmm.... wouldn't it have to be S6S if the ends were cut square?

maybe it would be S4S2E ??

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 13:20:20 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Geeze Tim, I can't believe anyone hasn't suggested that you might want to
>>look at what else might be going wrong if you can't get a square project at
>>this point. Jointers and do their job and there are a lot out there that
>>will do it well, even for small money, but I'd start looking closer to home
>>for problems. If you're using finished lumber from the store instead of
>>rough cut lumber, I sure wouldn't jump into the purchase of a planer.
>
>Buying S4S from a dealer is no guarantee of getting lumber that's straight,
>flat, and square. All you can depend on is that the two faces are parallel,
>and that the board is the same width along its entire length. No guarantee
>that the edges are truly square to the faces. No guarantee that either the
>edges or the faces are straight.
>>
<snip> or the friggin ends!!
I buy S4S or better due to lack of tools... and it's really rare that
either end is cut square in either direction..

In article <[email protected]>, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Geeze Tim, I can't believe anyone hasn't suggested that you might want to
>look at what else might be going wrong if you can't get a square project at
>this point. Jointers and do their job and there are a lot out there that
>will do it well, even for small money, but I'd start looking closer to home
>for problems. If you're using finished lumber from the store instead of
>rough cut lumber, I sure wouldn't jump into the purchase of a planer.

Buying S4S from a dealer is no guarantee of getting lumber that's straight,
flat, and square. All you can depend on is that the two faces are parallel,
and that the board is the same width along its entire length. No guarantee
that the edges are truly square to the faces. No guarantee that either the
edges or the faces are straight.
>
>Square - how about your saw? You should be able to get a cut from your
>tablesaw that will all but eliminate the need for a jointer.

Ummmm.... no, not at all. If you don't joint one edge of a board straight, how
on earth are you going to get a straight cut from the table saw?

And I haven't seen a table saw yet, that's capable of producing a straight,
flat _face_ on an uneven board.


>If not, it's
>time to look at the set up of your tablesaw or your technique. You'd be
>surprised at how well a well tuned saw will produce an edge ready for glue
>up.

*If* the board is straight, flat, and square to begin with -- which of course
is the reason that jointers and planers exist.

>Planers do a good job of sizing the thickness of wood but is that what
>you need? Do you build a lot of things that require wood that is not of a
>standard dimension?

The only way to be sure of getting wood that is straight, flat, and square is
to joint and plane it yourself. Every hardwood dealer I know of will plane
wood to any thickness you want, but I haven't encountered one yet that will
joint it first.

>
>I wouldn't be spending more money on jointers and planers if you're having
>problems with fundamentals. Chances are you'll still have those problems
>even with the new tools. Especially with the jointer. If your cuts with a
>table saw are giving you problems, you're probably going to have like
>problems with a jointer. It's not a wonder tool, no matter how good the
>jointer is. I'd go back to the basics.

IMO that conclusion, while possibly correct, is completely unwarranted by the
scant facts provided in the OP. He could very well be having trouble with his
table saw cuts precisely because he _doesn't_ have a jointer. If the wood
isn't flat, it's not possible to get consistently good results on the table
saw no matter what you do.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
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>
> Can you get good results from a modest machine? May I refer you back to
> the recent thread "A poor workman and his tools..."

I missed that thread. There are some good thoughts there (not to mention
some of the usual, but benevolent BS). One of the themes probably applies
here. A good workman probably researches and then selects the best tools
that he can afford, even if he has to wait a while on the 'afford' part.

The predecessor to my Powermatic 54A was a mid-50's vintage Craftsman 4"
tabletop, mounted on a wooden stand. It might not be considered desirable
by today's standards but the old machine was built like a fireplug and could
cut a pretty good edge. I could even surface one side of 6" or 7" wide
material, good enough for the surface planer - if I held my tongue right and
was careful. Joining longer stock over 5 or 6' was possible but I might put
more wood on the floor before I was pleased. Overall It did the job if I
did my job with diligence.

Now that I have had the Powermatic for a few months would I take the
Craftsman back?

Well, Hell NO!

In article <[email protected]>, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Buying S4S from a dealer is no guarantee of getting lumber that's
>straight,
>> flat, and square. All you can depend on is that the two faces are
>parallel,
>> and that the board is the same width along its entire length. No guarantee
>> that the edges are truly square to the faces. No guarantee that either the
>> edges or the faces are straight.
>> >
>
>There's no guarantees of anything in life Doug, but 99% of the time one can
>purchase any lumber they need from local suppliers, ether BORG or smaller
>suppliers, that is finished ready to go. Faces are parallel, edges are true
>and square.

If you think the S4S lumber from the Borg is flat, then your definition of
flat is a little more generous than mine.
>
>> >Square - how about your saw? You should be able to get a cut from your
>> >tablesaw that will all but eliminate the need for a jointer.
>>
>> Ummmm.... no, not at all. If you don't joint one edge of a board straight,
>how
>> on earth are you going to get a straight cut from the table saw?
>
>Lots of ways. Many here do not joint for glue up. You can tack or tape a
>guide board to the material to be cut, for example.

And how do you get a straight edge on that guide board?

> I have cut thousands of
>linear feet of lumber - at least many, many hundreds this way, and glue up
>was just fine. It is categorically not an absolute requirement to run a
>board through a jointer. The other alternative is to touch it up with a
>plane, which admitedly is jointing, but the point remains that a jointer and
>a planer are not necessarily must have tools given the brief description of
>the problem the OP gave.

And what about the faces? You simply can't make a twisted or bowed board flat
without jointing it in _some_ fashion. It doesn't matter whether you use a
jointer, or a jointer plane, or a sled in a planer, or whatever -- you still
have to joint the wood _somehow_ if you want to be sure that it's straight and
flat.
>
>>
>> And I haven't seen a table saw yet, that's capable of producing a
>straight,
>> flat _face_ on an uneven board.
>
>Come on over.

ROTFLMAO.
>
>>
>>
>> >If not, it's
>> >time to look at the set up of your tablesaw or your technique. You'd be
>> >surprised at how well a well tuned saw will produce an edge ready for
>glue
>> >up.
>>
>> *If* the board is straight, flat, and square to begin with -- which of
>course
>> is the reason that jointers and planers exist.
>
>Bad assumption. Use the saw to make the board straight and square.

Please describe how you would make a bowed board flat, using a table saw.

>The
>jointer, as a tool, is no better for making square than a table saw is.

I didn't claim that it was, but rather that a jointer *will* make straight
*and* flat, a board that isn't. A table saw will not.

>They both rely on a fence that is perpendicular to the cutting surface and
>they both use adjustable fences. Square requires attention to detail in
>setting the fence.

True, but not really relevant.

>For flat - select lumber better.

No, for flat, buy it rough and surface it yourself. The stuff you buy from the
Borg isn't flat.

> Granted, the planer
>will make bad lumber better, but that's not the original point of my reply.
>
>>
>> >Planers do a good job of sizing the thickness of wood but is that what
>> >you need? Do you build a lot of things that require wood that is not of
>a
>> >standard dimension?
>>
>> The only way to be sure of getting wood that is straight, flat, and square
>is
>> to joint and plane it yourself. Every hardwood dealer I know of will plane
>> wood to any thickness you want, but I haven't encountered one yet that
>will
>> joint it first.
>
>Our experiences differ then. I've had great success in getting S4S that met
>your criteria. Didn't require much more than going to the store and buying
>it.

No, you've had great success in getting S4S that meets *your* criteria. And if
the wood you're buying is good enough for your purposes, more power to you.

>
>>
>> >
>> >I wouldn't be spending more money on jointers and planers if you're
>having
>> >problems with fundamentals. Chances are you'll still have those problems
>> >even with the new tools. Especially with the jointer. If your cuts with
>a
>> >table saw are giving you problems, you're probably going to have like
>> >problems with a jointer. It's not a wonder tool, no matter how good the
>> >jointer is. I'd go back to the basics.
>>
>> IMO that conclusion, while possibly correct, is completely unwarranted by
>the
>> scant facts provided in the OP. He could very well be having trouble with
>his
>> table saw cuts precisely because he _doesn't_ have a jointer. If the wood
>> isn't flat, it's not possible to get consistently good results on the
>table
>> saw no matter what you do.
>>
>
>That's just a bad assertion Doug. Agreed the facts were scant so our
>responses are subject to our interpretation of what the OP meant by what he
>said, but what you're suggesting above is a wood problem. In my first
>paragraph I put in the assumption that he was using S4S and if that's the
>case I still contend that 99% of the time he does not need a jointer and a
>planer to make this wood ready for use.

Depends on your definition of "ready for use" I guess. The lumber at the Borg
apparently meets your definition. It doesn't meet mine; that's why I buy my
lumber rough, and surface it myself.

>Rough cut is a different story, but
>I did not address that. In fact with rough cut, he can have it planed by
>the supplier and easily cut it true with his table saw.

Yes, he can -- but if it isn't flat before being planed, it isn't going to be
flat after planing either. That's what a jointer is for.

> I have a jointer
>and I seldom use it for this application. In fact - I seldom use it. If I
>had to get rid of one of my power tools it could easily be my jointer that
>would be the first to go with little impact on my ability to produce quality
>work.
>

That's amazing.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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6" table top jointers come in various lengths and quality. This is another
case of getting what you pay for. Some of the cheapo's with inadequate
table adjustment mechanisms will lead you to never-ending frustration.
However, there are some good table top or stand mounted machines offered by
Delta, Jet and others.

Actually 6" is a pretty common jointer width for hobby and some pro shops.
I have a heavier 6" Powermatic 54A and love it.