I'm putting together a small bedside table. I was thinking about using
hide glue to glue the table top together. The top will be of 3 or 4
boards 20 inches long by 3.5 inchis wide by .75 or so inches thick. Is
this an appropriate situation in which to use hide glue? I was going to
warm the boards in the oven before appling the glue.
Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.
Thanks,
john
Rival Hot Pot Express has a knob to dial in the temp wanted. If
memory serves about $20.00USD at drug store.
On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 00:11:57 +0000, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> wrote:
>The pot should be thermostatically controlled, water-jacketed and
>electric -- nearly all of the reasons why people could dislike hide glue
>are avoided by this simple automatic control and convenience.
A "Fiesta" crockpot (the little mini one) is a perfect glue pot. Andy
gave you good advice. The only thing I would add is to use it where
"appropriate". Mortise & tennon, joints, veneer, dovetails, etc are
all perfectly good places to use hide glue. Edge gluing boards is a
perfect place for yellow glue or poly glue. There's no need for
biscuits, dowels, etc. since the glue is so strong.
"Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "[email protected]" wrote:
>>
>> I'm putting together a small bedside table. I was thinking about using
>> hide glue to glue the table top together. The top will be of 3 or 4
>> boards 20 inches long by 3.5 inchis wide by .75 or so inches thick. Is
>> this an appropriate situation in which to use hide glue? I was going to
>> warm the boards in the oven before appling the glue.
>
> An appropriate application but no special reason to do so
A lack of sash cramps might be one reason for using hide glue. The term
'rubbed joint' derives from the ability to make panel joints using hide
glue.
One simply planes the edges dead true, ie without the hollow used for
cramped-up joints, applies glue to the edges, warmed up by passing over the
top of the stove a few times but certainly not in an oven, and the rubs
until the glue grabs.
The disadvantage of the un-compressed joint is a tendency for the glue line
to widen as the wood shrinks, as it will, over the long term.
Jeff G
--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net
Andy Dingley wrote:
> To use the glue, soak the pearls for a few hours in _cold_ water before
> use. About 3 hours will do - it doesn't need to be overnight (unless
> you're using slab glue). Use an excess of cold water, otherwise they
> tend to clump and only soak properly around the edge. Well-soaked
> pearls should look like tapioca pudding - individual pale white blobs,
> but still separable if you poke them. Pour off excess water before
> heating. About 1/2 hour will generally be enough to get the glue ready
> for use. It should have the consistency of golden syrup in use, thicker
> or thinner for some jobs. Boil off some water to thicken it, thin it
> with hot water from the pot's water jacket. Keep any skin stirred in
> (don't do this immediately before a delicate job). If there's a lot of
> skinning, then your pot is too hot - about 50=B0C is all you need, once
> the glue has melted.
>
> After use, let the pot go cold and the glue re-solidify. Rinse out the
> brush, but don't worry about getting it perfectly clean. Glue can be
> left in the pot and re-heated in the future. Dried glue stores well
> (pour on a little water before re-heating). Wet cold glue will store
> overnight, but goes off if kept too long. Always wash out the water
> jacket after a day's work though, because the glue traces from rinsing
> the brush will fester in the water jacket and _that_ does stink!
>
-snipped for brevity-
a good tip I picked up somewhere is to prepare a batch by cold water
soaking, then divide the batch into amounts you'll be likely to use at
a session and freeze them individually. it keeps for a long time this
way and makes for easy cleanup and no waiting for a batch to soak.
Thanks to everyone for the help. I talked to a cabinet maker buddy of
mine and he said go with the hide glue if I want, much as was suggested
here, but that the good PVAs will do a fine job as well and are less
trouble to prepare, ie no soaking, glue pot etc. I've got good PVA
kicking around here so I'll dig it out and go with that for now and use
the hide glue for some other project.
Thanks,
john
>What material shuld one use for the glue pot? I currently use
> glass (pyrex), but if I'm no careful dried glue takes glass chips out
> of the bottom when removed with not enough care (i.e. pulling on the
> linden bark glue brush...)
I put the glue in a glass jar- jelly jar, peanut butter jar- whatever
disposable I have at hand. if it cleans easily I'll reuse it. if not
I'll pitch it.
the jar goes in a pan of water on a hotplate.
Australopithecus scobis wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 16:57:32 -0800, Duke of Burl wrote:
>
> > A "Fiesta" crockpot (the little mini one) is a perfect glue pot.
>
> So thought I. Mine, a Toastmaster, has no regulator. It just keeps getting
> hotter. Have to watch the temp and unplug it.
make a regulator. a cord with a male plug, a double gang switch box, a
duplex outlet and a dimmer switch and a cover and you're good to go.
just watch the wattage max on the dimmer.
I can't seem to find the one I have - we got it for a wedding present
10 years ago (and it "disappeared" out to the shop about 6 years
ago...) which has 3 temp settings. Here are some others though (be
sure to get one with temp settings and see which one works best for
you)
http://www.target.com/gp/search.html/ref=/602-9059613-2595041?%5Fencoding=UTF8&index=target&field-browse=3151061&field-keywords=crockpot
I'm not a professional woodworker, but I've built alot of furniture
using hide glue. How many times have you glued something up with
regular wood glue and while finishing discovered one of those spots in
a tight corner that has absorbed glue. It seems that plywood can aborb
the glue right though the veneer into the core. As an alternative, if
you use hide glue, any glue that penetrates the wood surrounding a
joint seems to blend into the finish.
I don't buy the weakness argument. I have a kitchen table, kitchen
cabinets, and a fireplace mantel that are held together with hide glue.
All are subjected to heat & moisture, and there's been no joint
failure. If I was making another table, I'd use hide glue.
I'm baffled why more woodworkers don't use hide glue.
"[email protected]" wrote:
>
> I'm putting together a small bedside table. I was thinking about using
> hide glue to glue the table top together. The top will be of 3 or 4
> boards 20 inches long by 3.5 inchis wide by .75 or so inches thick. Is
> this an appropriate situation in which to use hide glue? I was going to
> warm the boards in the oven before appling the glue.
An appropriate application but no special reason to do so other than if
you simply want to afaict. No need to warm the boards, in fact I'd
think that a bad idea from stability standpoint. You mixing your own or
using purchased ready-to-use glue?
Duane Bozarth wrote:
>
> "[email protected]" wrote:
> >
> > I'm putting together a small bedside table. I was thinking about using
> > hide glue to glue the table top together. The top will be of 3 or 4
> > boards 20 inches long by 3.5 inchis wide by .75 or so inches thick. Is
> > this an appropriate situation in which to use hide glue? I was going to
> > warm the boards in the oven before appling the glue.
>
> An appropriate application but no special reason to do so other than if
> you simply want to afaict. No need to warm the boards, in fact I'd
> think that a bad idea from stability standpoint. You mixing your own or
> using purchased ready-to-use glue?
Intended to note that one reason in particular to use hide glue is that
it can be disassembled at some future time for repair/restoration much
more easily than most modern glues--especially, of course, things like
the Gorilla Glue types.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm putting together a small bedside table. I was thinking about using
> hide glue to glue the table top together. The top will be of 3 or 4
> boards 20 inches long by 3.5 inchis wide by .75 or so inches thick. Is
> this an appropriate situation in which to use hide glue? I was going to
> warm the boards in the oven before appling the glue.
>
> Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.
Hide glue goes bad in the bottle, stinks and is fussy to prepare, has no
resistance to either heat or water.
The argument of "reversibility" is an attempt to make a virtue out of a
fault. A screw is reversible, too.
On 11 Nov 2005 10:17:47 -0800, "MrAnderson" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I'm baffled why more woodworkers don't use hide glue.
It's a pain to use. Nowadays it's a minor pain, in the past (before
thermostatic gluepots) it must have been a considerable pain. Those who
havent used it think it's worse than it really needs to be.
On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 18:33:37 +0100, Juergen Hannappel
<[email protected]> wrote:
>>no waiting for a batch to soak.
You can use unsoaked pearl glue if you're in a hurry, it just takes
about an hour's extra heating.
>What material shuld one use for the glue pot?
Substantial metal (good thermal inertia) but tinned rather than bare
cast iron. Some are tinned copper, more recent ones are aluminium. If
you use the common iron ones with either pale veneers or oak, there's a
risk of staining.
"Duke of Burl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The same could be said of beer.
Beer is reversable?
j
On 9 Nov 2005 06:10:29 -0800, "Duke of Burl" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Because hide glue isn't quite as strong as a PVA glue. If I were to
>use hide glue on the edge of a board, I'd want to reinforce it with
>splines, dowels, etc. PVA glue is strong enough on its own with no
>reinforecement.
Both are stronger than the wood, so the strength difference doesn't
really matter. More to the point is that PVA gives you a bit longer
open time so you can get the panels aligned before the glue sets up
too much. It can be hard to do that with hot hide glue - especially on
larger panel glue-ups.
--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
On 8 Nov 2005 16:57:32 -0800, "Duke of Burl" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Mortise & tennon, joints, veneer, dovetails, etc are
>all perfectly good places to use hide glue. Edge gluing boards is a
>perfect place for yellow glue or poly glue.
Why not use hide glue for edge-gluing boards ? You certainly could
use a PVA based glue, but then you could use those equally well on M&Ts
etc. I can see reasons to favour one or the other (mainly about future
repair) but I don't see a strong reason to influence this choice
according to the _type_ of joint.
I don't use PU glue. I've never used it for anything and been happy
with the results afterwards.
On 8 Nov 2005 14:24:05 -0800, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Is this an appropriate situation in which to use hide glue?
Hide glue is the best thing for all furniture, except biscuits. It's an
excellent glue, has good long-term behaviour, has good repair prospects
in the future and has good behaviour in use.
Start off easy - get a bottle of Titebond's cold hide glue. It's dead
easy to use and works almost as well. Try this out before you start on
the hot stuff.
To use hot hide glue you'll need some glue pearls (chunk or slab glue is
too much trouble). You'll also want a heated pot and a glue brush.
The pot should be thermostatically controlled, water-jacketed and
electric -- nearly all of the reasons why people could dislike hide glue
are avoided by this simple automatic control and convenience. My pot is
a surplus chem lab stirrer hotplate with a cast aluminium gluepot
inside. Others have used kitchen slow-cooker pots to heat glue, or
simple hotplates. You don't have to go out and buy an expensive electric
gluepot to get started. There should be a wire (stainless lockwire,
brass picture wire, or just copper electrical wire) tied tightly across
the top diameter as a brush wiper.
The brush should be a real glue brush and not too big - mine is Chinese
hand-tied hog bristle. Avoid metal collars around the bristles as they
can react with the wet glue.
To use the glue, soak the pearls for a few hours in _cold_ water before
use. About 3 hours will do - it doesn't need to be overnight (unless
you're using slab glue). Use an excess of cold water, otherwise they
tend to clump and only soak properly around the edge. Well-soaked
pearls should look like tapioca pudding - individual pale white blobs,
but still separable if you poke them. Pour off excess water before
heating. About 1/2 hour will generally be enough to get the glue ready
for use. It should have the consistency of golden syrup in use, thicker
or thinner for some jobs. Boil off some water to thicken it, thin it
with hot water from the pot's water jacket. Keep any skin stirred in
(don't do this immediately before a delicate job). If there's a lot of
skinning, then your pot is too hot - about 50°C is all you need, once
the glue has melted.
After use, let the pot go cold and the glue re-solidify. Rinse out the
brush, but don't worry about getting it perfectly clean. Glue can be
left in the pot and re-heated in the future. Dried glue stores well
(pour on a little water before re-heating). Wet cold glue will store
overnight, but goes off if kept too long. Always wash out the water
jacket after a day's work though, because the glue traces from rinsing
the brush will fester in the water jacket and _that_ does stink!
Burned glue smells burned (turn the heat down). Rotten glue smells
rotten. Most of the time though, with a thermostatic pot, then the glue
shouldn't smell any more than slightly noticeable. The old tales of vile
gluepots of stinking fishheads are from over-heating the glue on a
stove.
Once you're equipped to deal with hide glue for wood, then get hold of
some rabbit skin glue too. This is flexible when set and is useful for
leatherwork, flexible work and some aspects of bookbinding.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm putting together a small bedside table. I was thinking about using
> hide glue to glue the table top together.
Why?
On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 16:57:32 -0800, Duke of Burl wrote:
> A "Fiesta" crockpot (the little mini one) is a perfect glue pot.
So thought I. Mine, a Toastmaster, has no regulator. It just keeps getting
hotter. Have to watch the temp and unplug it.
--
"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad {dot} scientist {dot} com
On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 09:26:21 -0800, bridgerfafc wrote:
> then divide the batch into amounts you'll be likely to use
I think I saw the same "somewhere." The advice was to use plastic ice cube
trays; after freezing, pop them in a baggie and keep 'em in the freezer
until needed. Wish I could remember where I stashed that URL...
--
"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad {dot} scientist {dot} com
On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 22:02:29 -0800, bridgerfafc wrote:
> duplex outlet and a dimmer switch and a cover
Yeah, I have a spare dimmer laying around. I've got all the parts you
mentioned, but still lack a round tuit. Somebody in the market for a new
crock pot might want to use the crowbar on a fancier model.
--
"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad {dot} scientist {dot} com
[email protected] writes:
[...]
> a good tip I picked up somewhere is to prepare a batch by cold water
> soaking, then divide the batch into amounts you'll be likely to use at
> a session and freeze them individually. it keeps for a long time this
> way and makes for easy cleanup and no waiting for a batch to soak.
Sounds like a very good idea, I'll try that...
BTW: What material shuld one use for the glue pot? I currently use
glass (pyrex), but if I'm no careful dried glue takes glass chips out
of the bottom when removed with not enough care (i.e. pulling on the
linden bark glue brush...)
--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
mailto:[email protected] Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23