I have recently been refurbishing several of my father
and grandfather's planes. So far I have resurrected a
Miller's Falls #14 ( 1950+) which was really in good
condition. Also a Sandusky Tool Works wooden sole
plane with iron top and frog which works well
(About a #4 size). However my last project, an older
Stanley #5 (20's - 30's) has had much abuse and I
discovered small cracks on both sides of the throat.
The crack on one side runs up the cheek 1/4" and
the crack on the opposite side runs on the sole toward
the back for 1/4". I guess it must have been dropped
quite often. I have no metal working experience. Is it
possible to weld the cracks closed and grind the sole
flat again? I have hired several welders to repair some
cast iron before with poor results. I have been thinking
that I might use some JB Weld to fill the cracks but
realize this will probably not work well. I really need to
keep the plane for sentimental reasons but would like
to use it carefully also. Any ideas? Anyone know
where to buy a #5 sole without cracks?
On 27 Nov, 14:26, bookman <[email protected]> wrote:
> As I was told the brazing process has problems
> with oxygen causing poor bonding/fusing? of the
> brazing material with the metal object.
Not at all.
Vac or inert gas brazing is done to reduce the need for an applied
flux, or to reduce the need to remove vitrified flux after brazing.
For production (particularly of UHF electronics), this is worth
bothering about.
For general workshop hacking, apply a paste of powder flux and that
will do the job perfectly well. No need for a controlled gas
atmosphere. Maybe these days a few people are getting The Fear about
the constituents of fluoride fluxes and possible HF production, but
that's stretching things.
In fact for cast iron (but not planes!) you can practically do it
fluxless anyway. The free carbon in cast iron has flux-like behaviour
in that it absorbs free oxygen quite effectively.
The main issue for cast iron, and _especially_ for a plane with a
hopefully flat sole afterwards, is pre-heat and controlled cooling.
Not the atmosphere.
(And I'd electrically weld with with a nickel rod, not braze it
anyway).
On Nov 26, 2:15 pm, Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 26 Nov, 01:56, bookman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I have been thinking
> > that I might use some JB Weld to fill the cracks but
> > realize this will probably not work well.
>
> JJB Weld will work fine, to a better level than welding it by anyone
> other than a competent welder with specialist experience in repairing
> cast-iron to the standards necessary for plane bodies.
>
I think you're wrong on this one, Andy. I can't imagine JB Weld doing
anything other than a cosmetic repair. The cracks are only 1/4" long,
so they must be tight. I may be mistaken, but I don't believe that JB
Weld has any great wicking ability. The superglues do, and they might
penetrate and add a tiny bit of strength. Really tiny.
As you say, welding cast iron is tricky but it can be done. Brazing
would be easier. Either would add mechanical strength to the piece
but may also warp it enough that re-flattening would be necessary.
The questioner said he has no metalworking experience, so he's going
to have to get someone else to do it.
It's a common plane, available pretty cheaply used. If it has
sentimental value, hang it on the wall and just look at it. If he
wants to use it, do so. If the cracks grow, it's time to hang it on
the wall and buy another used plane. The used plane should be cheaper
than a professional welding or brazing job.
John Martin
On Nov 28, 7:44 am, Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 27 Nov, 18:14, "patrick mitchel" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > How bout gas silver brazing?
>
> Depends a bit on what you meant by the term, US terminology for
> brazing is largely wrong compared to Europe (there are good
> metallurgical reasons why).
>
> A silver alloy instead of brass will give you better wetting and may
> well be useful for repairing fine cracks around a mouth. Use the right
> alloy though - there are some aimed specifically at CI repair. As
> they're 56% silver, they're not cheap either. It's an interesting idea
> though - working below brazing temperatures could well be useful for
> reducing distortion ("silver brazing" is a misnomer).
>
> For a plane body that's already in two pieces, I can't see any
> advantage to it.
Whose plane is broken in half? The OP's just has a couple of cracks
by the mouth.
On the subject of precious metals, a buddy owns a pawn shop and has a
sign out front with the current price of gold (he updates it
frequently). I visited him and mentioned that the price had gone up
noticeably in a week's time, and he told me to look at what's
happening to the price of rhodium:
http://www.kitco.com/charts/popup/rh1825lnb.html
That stuff has _got_ to be on Viagra!
R
On Nov 26, 8:30 pm, Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:05:25 -0800 (PST), John Martin
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >I think you're wrong on this one, Andy. I can't imagine JB Weld doing
> >anything other than a cosmetic repair. The cracks are only 1/4" long,
> >so they must be tight.
>
> I'd bevel them out with a Dremel first, whether I was welding or
> glueing.
>
> JB Weld is actually less viscous than most other two-tube epoxies (for
> small scales, less than the filler particle size). If you degrease
> first, you can get some useful wicking with it.
My main concern with JB Weld is that many people (not you), on seeing
the "Weld" in the name, think it must be as strong as welding. In my
experience, it's no better or worse than most of the other filled
epoxies. Welding it's not.
Drilling a stopping hole at the end of the crack might make sense.
Veeing would make sense if welding or brazing, but I don't think even
a vee'd out JB Weld repair would be more than cosmetic. If he does
want to vee it before welding or brazing, I'd suggest filing, chipping
or milling instead of grinding with a Dremel, though.
John Martin
"bookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:431d0ce0-4246-4ea5-a8b8-2b47b84df355@o42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>I have recently been refurbishing several of my father
> and grandfather's planes. So far I have resurrected a
> Miller's Falls #14 ( 1950+) which was really in good
> condition. Also a Sandusky Tool Works wooden sole
> plane with iron top and frog which works well
> (About a #4 size). However my last project, an older
> Stanley #5 (20's - 30's) has had much abuse and I
> discovered small cracks on both sides of the throat.
> The crack on one side runs up the cheek 1/4" and
> the crack on the opposite side runs on the sole toward
> the back for 1/4". I guess it must have been dropped
> quite often. I have no metal working experience. Is it
> possible to weld the cracks closed and grind the sole
> flat again? I have hired several welders to repair some
> cast iron before with poor results. I have been thinking
> that I might use some JB Weld to fill the cracks but
> realize this will probably not work well. I really need to
> keep the plane for sentimental reasons but would like
> to use it carefully also. Any ideas? Anyone know
> where to buy a #5 sole without cracks?
From what I've seen, own and have read about - cracks at the mouth that run
up the sides are common failures on the #4 and #5. I have two #4's, one of
which I did not notice the cracks at all when I bought it at a flea market.
I've used this one rather rigorously on occasion and so far, no ill effects
nor have the cracks expanded. I do not intend to braze it even if it breaks.
It was all of $10 as I recall.
The second #4 had cracks in the same area but were brazed at some point in
its life. After flattening the sole and a good sharpening, it's a user too.
If the sentimental value of your plane exceeds the cost of another used
plane, then leave that one as is and purchase a user for yourself. You'll
find good #4's for less than $20.
Bob S.
bookman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Anyone know where to buy a #5 sole without cracks?
You should be able to find a replacement at Bob Kaune's site[1].
[1]: http://www.antique-used-tools.com
--
If you want to reply via email, change the obvious words to numbers and
remove ".invalid".
On Nov 27, 7:42 am, Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 27 Nov, 03:59, bookman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I then discovered that my cousin, a welder, has access to airless/gas
> > brazing box at work
>
> Why would that help?
As I said before I know little about metal working.
As I was told the brazing process has problems
with oxygen causing poor bonding/fusing? of the
brazing material with the metal object. This is why
you need to fully apply flux before brazing in air. The airless
(oxygen less) box is filled with an inert gas that
prevents the problem of an incomplete dirty bond.
Most industrial brazing is done in an airless environment
which seems to produce a stronger and better looking
braze. http://www.inductionatmospheres.com/brazing.html
offers a much better explanation of this process than I can.
Is the Great British Woodshop still being produced in the UK?
I really enjoyed David Free's work I glimpsed on internet TV.
On 26 Nov, 01:56, bookman <[email protected]> wrote:
> I have been thinking
> that I might use some JB Weld to fill the cracks but
> realize this will probably not work well.
JJB Weld will work fine, to a better level than welding it by anyone
other than a competent welder with specialist experience in repairing
cast-iron to the standards necessary for plane bodies.
It's also a very expensive process to weld one-offs, as it's
increasingly difficult to buy handful quantities of the nickel rods
necessary to do it. Minimum order locally to me is =A360.
As it's a commonplace #5, check eBay for a replacement sole (but check
the age, type and frog variations to check that it will fit). JBWeld
would also make a good repair.
Don't weld this one, if it's sentimental and it's your first attempt.
Go through a stack of junk spokeshaves first until you're good at it,
then practice some more on planes with soles.
news:sci.engr.joining.welding is a good resource.
On Nov 25, 8:56 pm, bookman <[email protected]> wrote:
> I have recently been refurbishing several of my father
> and grandfather's planes. So far I have resurrected a
> Miller's Falls #14 ( 1950+) which was really in good
> condition. Also a Sandusky Tool Works wooden sole
> plane with iron top and frog which works well
> (About a #4 size). However my last project, an older
> Stanley #5 (20's - 30's) has had much abuse and I
> discovered small cracks on both sides of the throat.
> The crack on one side runs up the cheek 1/4" and
> the crack on the opposite side runs on the sole toward
> the back for 1/4". I guess it must have been dropped
> quite often. I have no metal working experience. Is it
> possible to weld the cracks closed and grind the sole
> flat again? I have hired several welders to repair some
> cast iron before with poor results. I have been thinking
> that I might use some JB Weld to fill the cracks but
> realize this will probably not work well. I really need to
> keep the plane for sentimental reasons but would like
> to use it carefully also. Any ideas? Anyone know
> where to buy a #5 sole without cracks?
All over eBay, they're cheap enough. A cracked sole can usually be
salvaged by brass or bronze brazing. It's a pretty forgiving process.
R
R
I appreciate the excellent advise I have received on my cracked sole.
I first contacted Bob Kaune at antique-used-tools.com and was
offered an exact replacement # 5 base/bottom for a reasonable price.
I then discovered that my cousin, a welder, has access to airless/gas
brazing box at work and friends that have lots of experience repairing
this problem. I will get the base back Friday and will post a photo of
the
repair if possible. BTW, I have used JB Weld to repair a very cracked
large motor housing and cracked bearing socket on a 5HP motor that
has a lot of stress on it and is still operating perfectly after 4
years.
It's great stuff in my book.
On 27 Nov, 18:14, "patrick mitchel" <[email protected]> wrote:
> How bout gas silver brazing?
Depends a bit on what you meant by the term, US terminology for
brazing is largely wrong compared to Europe (there are good
metallurgical reasons why).
A silver alloy instead of brass will give you better wetting and may
well be useful for repairing fine cracks around a mouth. Use the right
alloy though - there are some aimed specifically at CI repair. As
they're 56% silver, they're not cheap either. It's an interesting idea
though - working below brazing temperatures could well be useful for
reducing distortion ("silver brazing" is a misnomer).
For a plane body that's already in two pieces, I can't see any
advantage to it.
On 27 Nov, 03:59, bookman <[email protected]> wrote:
> I then discovered that my cousin, a welder, has access to airless/gas
> brazing box at work
Why would that help?
How bout gas silver brazing? Haven't done it on a plane but a couple small
broken parts on a typewriter. I have an old bailey that has a crack in the
sole- been there and not grown in the time I've had it. Not heavily used but
considering the time it's been around I'd say it's having an easier life now
than when it was in it's prime. Pat
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:05:25 -0800 (PST), John Martin
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I think you're wrong on this one, Andy. I can't imagine JB Weld doing
>anything other than a cosmetic repair. The cracks are only 1/4" long,
>so they must be tight.
I'd bevel them out with a Dremel first, whether I was welding or
glueing.
JB Weld is actually less viscous than most other two-tube epoxies (for
small scales, less than the filler particle size). If you degrease
first, you can get some useful wicking with it.