What is the hardest smoothest finish?

Pinewood Derby season again?

Barry

Tom Watson wrote:

>
> The plastic wheel must rub against the wood finish without assistance
> from bushings, eschutcheons, etc.
>
> The good news is that it only has to do so for a brief period.
>
> The desired finish would have to provide the most frictionless
> encounter of the two surfaces, with a bit of help from a dry graphite
> lube.
>
> This involves questions of chemistry.
>
> The finish can not be such that it would be destroyed or softened by
> the lubricant.
>
You sly devil.
We had good luck with 3-4 coats of Krylon Klear Kote, or however you
spell it. Can't say just how hard it is, but it didn't show any signs
of wear after many many trips down the track. Makes the car look good
too and keeps the decals on. Used it on three first place winners.

DonkeyHody
"Even an old blind hog finds an acorn every now and then."

Tom Watson wrote:
> Here is the problem:
>
> I have a rotating wheel that bumps up against a finish that is put on
> wood.
>
> What finish should I put on the wood to make the friction between the
> wheel and the wood at minimum.
>
> My first thought is poly - but my first thoughts are too often wrong.
>


My first thought is also probably wrong. I'm a big fan of laquer
finishes. It absorbs well, layers nicely, polishes to a high luster.
But over pine? Wouldn't this fact negate the hardness of any finish?
Pine makes me think of epoxy finishes. They harden the surface they're
applied to and work very well to water-proof the hulls of wooden
watercraft. Very high bonding strength.

Tom in KY, fighting friction of all sorts every day.

Tom Watson wrote:
I have a rotating wheel that bumps up against a finish that is put on
> wood.
>
> What finish should I put on the wood to make the friction between the
> wheel and the wood at minimum.


Sherwin Williams used to have a product called Rex-thane. It's a
commercial strength poly intended for high traffic areas, floors, etc.

Tom

Epoxy, I would think. But now there are a dizzying quantity of epoxies
on the market. I would think one of the metal types (think JB Weld)
would buff out smoothest w/ a Dremel. You might call 3M and ask.

How about this: you can't add parts apparently, such as a simple tiny
(yet highly polished) washer, correct? Is the axle still a nail, as it
was when I was a boy? How about modifying the nail? You could pound it
out where a washer would be to form a washer of sorts, just something
to keep it from contacting the wheel.

Interesting question.

H.

Tom Watson wrote:
>
> The plastic wheel must rub against the wood finish without assistance
> from bushings, eschutcheons, etc.
>
> The good news is that it only has to do so for a brief period.
>
> The desired finish would have to provide the most frictionless
> encounter of the two surfaces, with a bit of help from a dry graphite
> lube.
>
The finish can not be such that it would be destroyed or softened by
> the lubricant.
>


hey slick,

Laquer also can be bought in a spray can and Eagle One has an
automotive wax with Teflon. Pretty da** slick. Without any real load
bearing, laquer and teflon should be a killer combo on a small, tiny,
lightweight vehicle. Good luck!

Tom in KY, just say your son wanted it to shine like the sun!

Tom Watson wrote:
> Here is the problem:
>
> I have a rotating wheel that bumps up against a finish that is put on
> wood.
>
> What finish should I put on the wood to make the friction between the
> wheel and the wood at minimum.
>
> My first thought is poly - but my first thoughts are too often wrong.
>
> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)


a little paste wax where the parts come together?

"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Here is the problem:
>
> I have a rotating wheel that bumps up against a finish that is put on
> wood.
>
> What finish should I put on the wood to make the friction between the
> wheel and the wood at minimum.
>
> My first thought is poly - but my first thoughts are too often wrong.
>
> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

How about Slip Plate paint. Basically graphite lube with a base and
binder. Sure makes snowblowers and mowing decks slick.

http://www.slipplate.com/



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I've used it a LOT for various items. The company themselves also make
many other types of lubricants as well.

--
Steve Williams


"Ron Magen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:TOhsf.24709$x%2.14639@trnddc06...
> Steve -
> An interesting product & web site.
>
> I've put it on my 'Favorites' list.
>
> Thanks,
> Ron Magen
> Backyard Boatshop
>
> "Steve W." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > SNIP
> > How about Slip Plate paint. Basically graphite lube with a base and
> > binder. Sure makes snowblowers and mowing decks slick.
> >
> > http://www.slipplate.com/
> >
>
>



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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Tom Watson wrote:
> Here is the problem:
>
> I have a rotating wheel that bumps up against a finish that is put on
> wood.
>
> What finish should I put on the wood to make the friction between the
> wheel and the wood at minimum.
>
> My first thought is poly - but my first thoughts are too often wrong.
>
> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
Probably stainless steel bumper. You might try Behlen's Rock Hard but
anything like that is going to wear off sooner or later. I am assuming
that there is no way to adjust the mechanics such that the wheel does
not rub against the wood.
happy new year,
jo4hn

Tom Watson wrote:

> I have a rotating wheel that bumps up against a finish that is put on
> wood.
>
> What finish should I put on the wood to make the friction between the
> wheel and the wood at minimum.
>

Some of that bar top epoxy is about the hardest finish I know of.

Or you could inset a piece of some hard substance (plastic, metal,
glass?) at the point of contact.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Tom Watson wrote:

> No fair using other than the general finish.
>

Oops - I didn't realize what you were building :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 18:28:31 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 15:14:00 -0800, jo4hn <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Probably stainless steel bumper. You might try Behlen's Rock Hard but
>>anything like that is going to wear off sooner or later. I am assuming
>>that there is no way to adjust the mechanics such that the wheel does
>>not rub against the wood.
>> happy new year,
>> jo4hn
>
>
>Mahalo nui loa, Jo4hn.
>
>You assume correctly.
>
>The plastic wheel must rub against the wood finish without assistance
>from bushings, eschutcheons, etc.
>
Umm.. no idea of the rules here, so sort of handicapped...
Is the use of a wood washer also prohibited?

I'd think that besides making the wheel slide better at the friction point,
you'd also want to minimize the SIZE of the friction point...
but then again, my math really sucks and I haven't got a clue about figuring out
friction/surface area..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 17:27:07 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Here is the problem:
>
>I have a rotating wheel that bumps up against a finish that is put on
>wood.
>
>What finish should I put on the wood to make the friction between the
>wheel and the wood at minimum.
>
>My first thought is poly - but my first thoughts are too often wrong.
>
>Tom Watson - WoodDorker
>tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
>http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

Tom, How about mixing some diamond powder in with poly?
You can get the dust
http://cgi.ebay.com/SACHI-Diamond-Polishing-Powder-Micron-0-2-Grade-1-C_W0QQitemZ6589937115QQcategoryZ4843QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Or aluminum oxide mixed in to poly such as used on pre finished
floors.

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
> Here is the problem:
>
> I have a rotating wheel that bumps up against a finish that is put on
> wood.
>
> What finish should I put on the wood to make the friction between the
> wheel and the wood at minimum.
>
> My first thought is poly - but my first thoughts are too often wrong.

Powder coating? ... it's now being done to wood/wood products.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 19:18:14 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Tom
Watson <[email protected]> quickly quoth:

>On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 18:16:23 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Powder coating? ... it's now being done to wood/wood products.
>
>
>That's a good thought, Swing.
>
>But, the technology right now is such that it involves very specific
>kinds of MDF products. (I'm involved with this at work a fair amount)
>
>I'm talking about a solid pine object.

No escutcheon plate? How about a thick layer of clear epoxy?
It would build and add layers of wear prior to looking bad.

--
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly
is to fill the world with fools.
--Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

Mike -
NOTE my FIRST sentience . . .

Also he did ask "What is the HARDEST & SMOOTHEST . . .". No mention of '. .
. the EASIEST {that will do 95% of the job}'.

Regards,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Ron Magen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:Oxcsf.54$Ff6.44@trnddc01...
> > How much do you want to put into this, Thomas?
> >
SNIP
{of a 10-step, involved process}

> Alright - my curiosity is peaked. How about building two while you're at
it
> and finishing one with just a couple coats of poly that you knock down
with
> some 1500 and maybe hit with a little rubbing compound. I'm going to get
> daring here, but I'm going to bet it performs just as well as this and
> previous suggestions. Not to dismiss the value of this and other
> suggestions, but how much is enough for the given application? Frankly, I
> don't know - that's why my bet is daring, but I'm willing to put my
> collection of fruit fly wings up as collateral for my bet.
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]
>
>

"Ron Magen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:8Thsf.24710$x%2.2920@trnddc06...
> Mike -
> NOTE my FIRST sentience . . .
>
> Also he did ask "What is the HARDEST & SMOOTHEST . . .". No mention of '.
.
> . the EASIEST {that will do 95% of the job}'.
>

I didn't question your post Ron. That's why I took the time to state that
my curiosity was peaked. I am curious if any of the suggestions are any
better than the obvious solution. My guess that the poly approach would
work every bit as well as any of the other suggestions speaks more to the
OP's quest for the hardest smoothest finish than it does to your response.
I suspect he's in search of incremental gains that just won't be measurable.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 18:16:23 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:


>Powder coating? ... it's now being done to wood/wood products.


That's a good thought, Swing.

But, the technology right now is such that it involves very specific
kinds of MDF products. (I'm involved with this at work a fair amount)

I'm talking about a solid pine object.

Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

Tom Watson wrote:
> Here is the problem:
>
> I have a rotating wheel that bumps up against a finish that is put on
> wood.
>
> What finish should I put on the wood to make the friction between the
> wheel and the wood at minimum.
>
> My first thought is poly - but my first thoughts are too often wrong.
>
> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
How about adding a lubricant to the finish? My BIL, who owns a paint
company, once finished the slide at a children's playground and added
silicone to the varnish. You could also try adding graphite powder or
Teflon powder to a two-part urethane or catalyzed lacquer. The hardness
of two-part urethane is determined by the ratio of hardener to resin so
you could formulate to maximum hardness, add some of the aforementioned
cat snot and... you know, "be" the slippery slope.

--
Ron Hock
HOCK TOOLS www.hocktools.com

How much do you want to put into this, Thomas?

Supposing all the responses are correct in what the 'project' is . . . it is
presumed to be an 'indoor' {NOT exposed to UV} item. With that in mind *my*
recommendation would be the following schedule -
1} Sand up to 220 grit
1a}If color is desired, use WB DYE at this point
1b}When completely dry, sand away 'fuzz'
2} 'Tack' and vacuum clean
3} Apply a thin, well pushed coat of HARD {5:1
formulation}epoxy {RAKA is the brand I use - glad
to give you some}
4} Within 24-hours, apply another coat
5} Apply a third coat as above.
6} After 24-hours, examine with a glancing light and
apply a 4th coat as necessary.
6a}Allow to 'cure' for at least 7 days.
7} WASH with warm water {add a drop or two of a mild
liquid dish detergent}
8} Dry & sand {with block}using secceedingly finer grits
. . . to 340.
9} Apply 3 {or more} thin coats of a clear WB Poly.
Sanding between coats to at least 600 Wet.
10} Apply at least two coats of paste wax . . . WELL
BUFFED OUT.

Obviously this will take quite a bit of time. What you WILL have is a solid,
very hard and very flat base. This will be covered by a very hard
intermediate layer {that can be re-need}, to which the 'slick' layer can be
repeatedly re-applied. It is also almost totally impervious - and thus
allowing experiments with various 'just before use' treatments. Note that
'as is' it is dry and NOT a 'dust collector'.

Regarding the comment about the axle . . . I would fine sand/burnish then
polish, wax, & buff well as needed.

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Here is the problem:
>
SNIP

Steve -
An interesting product & web site.

I've put it on my 'Favorites' list.

Thanks,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

"Steve W." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> SNIP
> How about Slip Plate paint. Basically graphite lube with a base and
> binder. Sure makes snowblowers and mowing decks slick.
>
> http://www.slipplate.com/
>

"Ron Magen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Oxcsf.54$Ff6.44@trnddc01...
> How much do you want to put into this, Thomas?
>
> Supposing all the responses are correct in what the 'project' is . . . it
is
> presumed to be an 'indoor' {NOT exposed to UV} item. With that in mind
*my*
> recommendation would be the following schedule -
> 1} Sand up to 220 grit
> 1a}If color is desired, use WB DYE at this point
> 1b}When completely dry, sand away 'fuzz'
> 2} 'Tack' and vacuum clean
> 3} Apply a thin, well pushed coat of HARD {5:1
> formulation}epoxy {RAKA is the brand I use - glad
> to give you some}
> 4} Within 24-hours, apply another coat
> 5} Apply a third coat as above.
> 6} After 24-hours, examine with a glancing light and
> apply a 4th coat as necessary.
> 6a}Allow to 'cure' for at least 7 days.
> 7} WASH with warm water {add a drop or two of a mild
> liquid dish detergent}
> 8} Dry & sand {with block}using secceedingly finer
grits
> . . . to 340.
> 9} Apply 3 {or more} thin coats of a clear WB Poly.
> Sanding between coats to at least 600 Wet.
> 10} Apply at least two coats of paste wax . . . WELL
> BUFFED OUT.
>
> Obviously this will take quite a bit of time. What you WILL have is a
solid,
> very hard and very flat base. This will be covered by a very hard
> intermediate layer {that can be re-need}, to which the 'slick' layer can
be
> repeatedly re-applied. It is also almost totally impervious - and thus
> allowing experiments with various 'just before use' treatments. Note that
> 'as is' it is dry and NOT a 'dust collector'.
>
> Regarding the comment about the axle . . . I would fine sand/burnish then
> polish, wax, & buff well as needed.
>
> Regards & Good Luck,
> Ron Magen
> Backyard Boatshop
>
> "Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Here is the problem:
> >
> SNIP
>
>

Alright - my curiosity is peaked. How about building two while you're at it
and finishing one with just a couple coats of poly that you knock down with
some 1500 and maybe hit with a little rubbing compound. I'm going to get
daring here, but I'm going to bet it performs just as well as this and
previous suggestions. Not to dismiss the value of this and other
suggestions, but how much is enough for the given application? Frankly, I
don't know - that's why my bet is daring, but I'm willing to put my
collection of fruit fly wings up as collateral for my bet.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 17:27:07 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Here is the problem:
>
>I have a rotating wheel that bumps up against a finish that is put on
>wood.
>
>What finish should I put on the wood to make the friction between the
>wheel and the wood at minimum.

Shellac under wax?

--------------------
Steve Jensen
Abbotsford B.C.
[email protected] chopping out the mortise.
BBS'ing since 1982 at 300 bps.
Surfing along at 19200 bps since 95.
WW'ing since 1985
LV Cust #4114

Nothing catchy to say, well maybe.....
WAKE UP - There are no GODs you fools!

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 16:30:31 -0800, Larry Blanchard
<[email protected]> wrote:


>Some of that bar top epoxy is about the hardest finish I know of.
>
>Or you could inset a piece of some hard substance (plastic, metal,
>glass?) at the point of contact.


No fair using other than the general finish.

The finish must be such that it provides the most friction free
surface when in contact with a plastic wheel.


Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:

> Here is the problem:
>
> I have a rotating wheel that bumps up against a finish that is put on
> wood.
>
> What finish should I put on the wood to make the friction between the
> wheel and the wood at minimum.
>
> My first thought is poly - but my first thoughts are too often wrong.
>
> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

Sikkens Autocryl Clear. Harder than a boss's heart. Looks like it stays
wet.
It's a three-part finish which meets spec for topcoats for Mercedes,
Porsche etc.
The difficulty is in obtaining small amounts. I have used it in
commercial applications where it has stood up brilliantly over the
years. If laminate is more robust, it is not by much.
The fun part is that one can buy a 'Matting Clear'. By adding that,
instead (percentage) of the main Autocryl component, one has infinite
control of sheen. IOW, what you have left, can be used in high wear
applications like... thresholds. Potlife (Mixed) is about 1 hour.
Shelflife opened is about a year. Clean your gun.. I mean CLEAN it with
their thinner (part 3).

It is really remarkably tough stuff. Do NOT apply to raised panel doors
as the contraction and expansion will tear the door up where the panel
is painted/stuck to the rail/stile. DAMHIKT.

I put a cherry veneer fridge panel right next to my gas range and after
12 years of cleaning with a variety of noxious substances, not a trace
of wear. Looks new like the day I installed it. If it wasn't so damned
expensive, I'd use it on everything. (Comes in 330,00 colours as well.
Rolls Royce has a spec for bronze metallic. I have been tempted to lay
out the cash and refinish my American Standard Telecaster.... but I
kinda like the black it is now.)

Akzo Nobel are the Americanadian distributors.

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 17:27:07 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Tom
Watson <[email protected]> quickly quoth:

>Here is the problem:
>
>I have a rotating wheel that bumps up against a finish that is put on
>wood.
>
>What finish should I put on the wood to make the friction between the
>wheel and the wood at minimum.
>
>My first thought is poly - but my first thoughts are too often wrong.

That one is. Screw or glue on a steel snubbing plate, Tawm.

--
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly
is to fill the world with fools.
--Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

Tom Watson wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 16:30:31 -0800, Larry Blanchard
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Some of that bar top epoxy is about the hardest finish I know of.
>>
>>Or you could inset a piece of some hard substance (plastic, metal,
>>glass?) at the point of contact.
>
>
>
> No fair using other than the general finish.
>
> The finish must be such that it provides the most friction free
> surface when in contact with a plastic wheel.

Lots of paste wax?

You only have to get it to the finish line a few times, right?

er
--
email not valid

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 18:28:31 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:

Tom.. does it have to be a "finish" as opposed to an overlay?

Lots of factory stuff is made with a laminated sheet good that looks like thin
formica but is some sort of teflon derivative...


>On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 15:14:00 -0800, jo4hn <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Probably stainless steel bumper. You might try Behlen's Rock Hard but
>>anything like that is going to wear off sooner or later. I am assuming
>>that there is no way to adjust the mechanics such that the wheel does
>>not rub against the wood.
>> happy new year,
>> jo4hn
>
>
>Mahalo nui loa, Jo4hn.
>
>You assume correctly.
>
>The plastic wheel must rub against the wood finish without assistance
>from bushings, eschutcheons, etc.
>
>The good news is that it only has to do so for a brief period.
>
>The desired finish would have to provide the most frictionless
>encounter of the two surfaces, with a bit of help from a dry graphite
>lube.
>
>This involves questions of chemistry.
>
>The finish can not be such that it would be destroyed or softened by
>the lubricant.
>
>Tom Watson - WoodDorker
>tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
>http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 15:14:00 -0800, jo4hn <[email protected]>
wrote:


>Probably stainless steel bumper. You might try Behlen's Rock Hard but
>anything like that is going to wear off sooner or later. I am assuming
>that there is no way to adjust the mechanics such that the wheel does
>not rub against the wood.
> happy new year,
> jo4hn


Mahalo nui loa, Jo4hn.

You assume correctly.

The plastic wheel must rub against the wood finish without assistance
from bushings, eschutcheons, etc.

The good news is that it only has to do so for a brief period.

The desired finish would have to provide the most frictionless
encounter of the two surfaces, with a bit of help from a dry graphite
lube.

This involves questions of chemistry.

The finish can not be such that it would be destroyed or softened by
the lubricant.

Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)