Measure without tape measure.

#3 Needs to be replaced with...Get a teenager to clean their room.
#8 Some people should never touch any electrical components
#9 Isn't this why we have wives

--
Watch for the bounce.
If ya didn't see it, ya didn't feel it.
If ya see it, it didn't go off.
Old Air Force Munitions Saying
"Jim Behning" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 17:27:35 -0700, Robatoy <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>HOW many can YOU do? (From Popular Mechanics)
>>
>>As Glenn Reynolds writes in his new PM column, traditional knowledge
>>of how to build and fix ordinary things-around the house and in a jam-
>>might be on the decline. With our lives becoming more driven by
>>technology, blue-collar labor has been replaced with more white-collar
>>employment, and teenagers are becoming better at programming Web sites
>>than swinging hammers.
>>
>>Here at PM, where we at least try to do everything, we spent weeks
>>fine-tuning our list of "25 Skills Every Man Should Know," debating
>>over whether certain items were too basic, too challenging or just too
>>obscure. You can find a full how-to rundown of each one in the October
>>issue of Popular Mechanics, which just hit newsstands. But for now,
>>check out our carefully selected list below, then offer your own
>>arguments and suggestions in the comments section below, or tell us
>>how to perform your must-know skill by writing to us here...
>>
>>The List: How to...
>>
>>1. Patch a radiator hose
>>2. Protect your computer
>>3. Rescue a boater who as capsized
>>4. Frame a wall
>>5. Retouch digital photos
>>6. Back up a trailer
>>7. Build a campfire
>>8. Fix a dead outlet
>>9. Navigate with a map and compass
>>10. Use a torque wrench
>>11. Sharpen a knife
>>12. Perform CPR
>>13. Fillet a fish
>>14. Maneuver a car out of a skid
>>15. Get a car unstuck
>>16. Back up data
>>17. Paint a room
>>18. Mix concrete
>>19. Clean a bolt-action rifle
>>20. Change oil and filter
>>21. Hook up an HDTV
>>22. Bleed brakes
>>23. Paddle a canoe
>>24. Fix a bike flat
>>25. Extend your wireless network
>>
>>
>>Well...shit....I can do all of those......( I must admit that hooking
>>up The HDTV has a fair bit to do with WHAT protocol...yeah, I hooked
>>up mine... 1080i and all that...)
> Sharpen a knife fast so you can fillet a man to perform open chest
> cpr? Frame a photo? Retouch a trailer? Paint concrete? Where is build
> a 36x72 pole barn? Tile your bathrooms, install hardwood floors, hang
> cabinets? Install a mile of wire fence? Castrate pigs? Sharpen the hoe
> and hoe the corn?

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 17:27:35 -0700, Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:

>HOW many can YOU do? (From Popular Mechanics)
>
>As Glenn Reynolds writes in his new PM column, traditional knowledge
>of how to build and fix ordinary things-around the house and in a jam-
>might be on the decline. With our lives becoming more driven by
>technology, blue-collar labor has been replaced with more white-collar
>employment, and teenagers are becoming better at programming Web sites
>than swinging hammers.
>
>Here at PM, where we at least try to do everything, we spent weeks
>fine-tuning our list of "25 Skills Every Man Should Know," debating
>over whether certain items were too basic, too challenging or just too
>obscure. You can find a full how-to rundown of each one in the October
>issue of Popular Mechanics, which just hit newsstands. But for now,
>check out our carefully selected list below, then offer your own
>arguments and suggestions in the comments section below, or tell us
>how to perform your must-know skill by writing to us here...
>
>The List: How to...
>
>1. Patch a radiator hose
>2. Protect your computer
>3. Rescue a boater who as capsized
>4. Frame a wall
>5. Retouch digital photos
>6. Back up a trailer
>7. Build a campfire
>8. Fix a dead outlet
>9. Navigate with a map and compass
>10. Use a torque wrench
>11. Sharpen a knife
>12. Perform CPR
>13. Fillet a fish
>14. Maneuver a car out of a skid
>15. Get a car unstuck
>16. Back up data
>17. Paint a room
>18. Mix concrete
>19. Clean a bolt-action rifle
>20. Change oil and filter
>21. Hook up an HDTV
>22. Bleed brakes
>23. Paddle a canoe
>24. Fix a bike flat
>25. Extend your wireless network
>
>
>Well...shit....I can do all of those......( I must admit that hooking
>up The HDTV has a fair bit to do with WHAT protocol...yeah, I hooked
>up mine... 1080i and all that...)
Sharpen a knife fast so you can fillet a man to perform open chest
cpr? Frame a photo? Retouch a trailer? Paint concrete? Where is build
a 36x72 pole barn? Tile your bathrooms, install hardwood floors, hang
cabinets? Install a mile of wire fence? Castrate pigs? Sharpen the hoe
and hoe the corn?

On Sep 12, 8:56 pm, Jim Behning
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 17:27:35 -0700, Robatoy <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >HOW many can YOU do? (From Popular Mechanics)
>
> >As Glenn Reynolds writes in his new PM column, traditional knowledge
> >of how to build and fix ordinary things-around the house and in a jam-
> >might be on the decline. With our lives becoming more driven by
> >technology, blue-collar labor has been replaced with more white-collar
> >employment, and teenagers are becoming better at programming Web sites
> >than swinging hammers.
>
> >Here at PM, where we at least try to do everything, we spent weeks
> >fine-tuning our list of "25 Skills Every Man Should Know," debating
> >over whether certain items were too basic, too challenging or just too
> >obscure. You can find a full how-to rundown of each one in the October
> >issue of Popular Mechanics, which just hit newsstands. But for now,
> >check out our carefully selected list below, then offer your own
> >arguments and suggestions in the comments section below, or tell us
> >how to perform your must-know skill by writing to us here...
>
> >The List: How to...
>
> >1. Patch a radiator hose
> >2. Protect your computer
> >3. Rescue a boater who as capsized
> >4. Frame a wall
> >5. Retouch digital photos
> >6. Back up a trailer
> >7. Build a campfire
> >8. Fix a dead outlet
> >9. Navigate with a map and compass
> >10. Use a torque wrench
> >11. Sharpen a knife
> >12. Perform CPR
> >13. Fillet a fish
> >14. Maneuver a car out of a skid
> >15. Get a car unstuck
> >16. Back up data
> >17. Paint a room
> >18. Mix concrete
> >19. Clean a bolt-action rifle
> >20. Change oil and filter
> >21. Hook up an HDTV
> >22. Bleed brakes
> >23. Paddle a canoe
> >24. Fix a bike flat
> >25. Extend your wireless network
>
> >Well...shit....I can do all of those......( I must admit that hooking
> >up The HDTV has a fair bit to do with WHAT protocol...yeah, I hooked
> >up mine... 1080i and all that...)
>
> Sharpen a knife fast so you can fillet a man to perform open chest
> cpr? Frame a photo? Retouch a trailer? Paint concrete? Where is build
> a 36x72 pole barn? Tile your bathrooms, install hardwood floors, hang
> cabinets? Install a mile of wire fence? Castrate pigs? Sharpen the hoe
> and hoe the corn?

I cook minute rice in 30 seconds!

On 12 Sep, 20:27, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> HOW many can YOU do? (From Popular Mechanics)
>
> As Glenn Reynolds writes in his new PM column, traditional knowledge
> of how to build and fix ordinary things-around the house and in a jam-
> might be on the decline. With our lives becoming more driven by
> technology, blue-collar labor has been replaced with more white-collar
> employment, and teenagers are becoming better at programming Web sites
> than swinging hammers.
>
> Here at PM, where we at least try to do everything, we spent weeks
> fine-tuning our list of "25 Skills Every Man Should Know," debating
> over whether certain items were too basic, too challenging or just too
> obscure. You can find a full how-to rundown of each one in the October
> issue of Popular Mechanics, which just hit newsstands. But for now,
> check out our carefully selected list below, then offer your own
> arguments and suggestions in the comments section below, or tell us
> how to perform your must-know skill by writing to us here...
>
> The List: How to...
>
> 1. Patch a radiator hose
> 2. Protect your computer
> 3. Rescue a boater who as capsized
> 4. Frame a wall
> 5. Retouch digital photos
> 6. Back up a trailer
> 7. Build a campfire
> 8. Fix a dead outlet
> 9. Navigate with a map and compass
> 10. Use a torque wrench
> 11. Sharpen a knife
> 12. Perform CPR
> 13. Fillet a fish
> 14. Maneuver a car out of a skid
> 15. Get a car unstuck
> 16. Back up data
> 17. Paint a room
> 18. Mix concrete
> 19. Clean a bolt-action rifle
> 20. Change oil and filter
> 21. Hook up an HDTV
> 22. Bleed brakes
> 23. Paddle a canoe
> 24. Fix a bike flat
> 25. Extend your wireless network
>
> Well...shit....I can do all of those......( I must admit that hooking
> up The HDTV has a fair bit to do with WHAT protocol...yeah, I hooked
> up mine... 1080i and all that...)

3 man and 1 woman were talking about this on CNN the other day...just
the Top 10.

re: Use a torque wrench - None of them had any idea what a torque
wrench was.
re: Fix a dead outlet - One guy commented - "Oh yeah...a great way to
burn the house down!"

On Sep 14, 6:22 pm, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> > "J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
>
> >>3. Replace burnout lights on a vehicle.
>
> > That may be one of the toughest on any list, the way cars are designed
> > today. Depending on the light, it may take an hour or more to remove all
> > the panels and covers to get to the bulb.
>
> To replace a rear tail light on the company Silverado pickup I drive you
> have to either remove the "Fibre Body" cap/box or chop a hole in it to
> get to the lens cover screws. See:
>
> http://www.brandfxbody.com/fibrebody/inserts.htm
>
> --
> Jack Novak
> Buffalo, NY - USA
> [email protected]

Reminds me of the vehicle from the 70's where you had to tilt the
engine up to remove one of the sparkplugs. This was back when tune-ups
were a common preventative maintainence. A typical case of the design
engineers not getting the maintenance folks involved earlier enough.
No one asked "Hey, guys, if we build it like this, can you fix it when
it breaks?"

It took some backyard mechanic to figure out that if you drilled a
large hole in the wheel well, you could get to the spark plug,
Mechanics would use a hole saw, then install a sheet metal plug to
seal the access hole.

On Sep 15, 10:54 am, DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 14, 6:22 pm, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> > > "J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > >news:[email protected]...
>
> > >>3. Replace burnout lights on a vehicle.
>
> > > That may be one of the toughest on any list, the way cars are designed
> > > today. Depending on the light, it may take an hour or more to remove all
> > > the panels and covers to get to the bulb.
>
> > To replace a rear tail light on the company Silverado pickup I drive you
> > have to either remove the "Fibre Body" cap/box or chop a hole in it to
> > get to the lens cover screws. See:
>
> >http://www.brandfxbody.com/fibrebody/inserts.htm
>
> > --
> > Jack Novak
> > Buffalo, NY - USA
> > [email protected]
>
> Reminds me of the vehicle from the 70's where you had to tilt the
> engine up to remove one of the sparkplugs. This was back when tune-ups
> were a common preventative maintainence. A typical case of the design
> engineers not getting the maintenance folks involved earlier enough.
> No one asked "Hey, guys, if we build it like this, can you fix it when
> it breaks?"
>
> It took some backyard mechanic to figure out that if you drilled a
> large hole in the wheel well, you could get to the spark plug,
> Mechanics would use a hole saw, then install a sheet metal plug to
> seal the access hole.

IIRC, the Chevy Monza ( late 70's) with a 307(?) had a few issues like
that.
The hole in the inside fender was the only way to go.

On Sep 15, 12:21 pm, "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote:
>....snip] and ended up with another (to me, at least) somewhat related question:
>
> Reaching back through time to consider those people you for whom you
> have the greatest admiration, what skills did they have (or probably
> have) in common?
>

DaVinci. Hands down. (My bookshelves pretty much show that
admiration.) For his ability to imagine and then having the artistic
discipline to put his ideas to paper/canvas.

r

On Sep 15, 12:21 pm, "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>
> | HOW many can YOU do? (From Popular Mechanics)
>
> It's an interesting list, more so with the additions that've been
> suggested - and I've enjoyed Heinlein's list ever since I began
> reading his Lazerus Long books.
>
> To my surprise I've done most of that stuff except extending a
> wireless network (mine is already planet-wide - I'm a ham radio
> operator), setting up an HDTV (I've never had one to play with), and
> dying gallantly.
>
> That last provoked a train of thought that wandered hither and yon,
> and ended up with another (to me, at least) somewhat related question:
>
> Reaching back through time to consider those people you for whom you
> have the greatest admiration, what skills did they have (or probably
> have) in common?
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

My grandmother.

She somehow found the good in everyone she met, regardless of how
little there may have been, and always managed to bring it to the
surface. I've watched her take lives that were spiraling down the
drain and raise them to heights no one would have imagined possible.

I miss her.

On Sep 15, 3:55 pm, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:33:51 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >But, nothing then was even close to the nightmare of the modern
> >transverse engine jobbies w/ smaller frames to cut down weight...
>
> Ever work on a Ford van with a big block?
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> **http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
> ---------------------------------------------

No, I haven't. THAT is one temptation I have succussfully fought off.
I have WANTED to......

On 15 Sep, 15:55, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:33:51 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >But, nothing then was even close to the nightmare of the modern
> >transverse engine jobbies w/ smaller frames to cut down weight...
>

- Ever work on a Ford van with a big block?


No, but the block I lived on in NYC had a perimeter of 2 miles and I
worked on my lay-down Rambler a lot.

OH! You meant a big block *engine*. Sorry.

I had one of those Monza's with the small block. I think it was
actually a 262, not the 307. I changed that plug once. Never
again. It was pretty old when I was driving it and I ALWAYS kept a
tool box in the trunk - and I regularly drove it 550 mile to and from
college. Nowaday's I suppose that would be pointless - not too many
things you can repair roadside - and probably not a lot of college
kids who've grown up working on cars. I work with a couple of younger
engineers, and it's always surprising that they call a plumber or
electrician for the simplest home repair. Hell, I would always at
least attempt it first, and then make a call if I really screwed it
up.

Rich



On Sep 15, 11:20 am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 15, 10:54 am, DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 14, 6:22 pm, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> > > > "J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > >news:[email protected]...
>
> > > >>3. Replace burnout lights on a vehicle.
>
> > > > That may be one of the toughest on any list, the way cars are designed
> > > > today. Depending on the light, it may take an hour or more to remove all
> > > > the panels and covers to get to the bulb.
>
> > > To replace a rear tail light on the company Silverado pickup I drive you
> > > have to either remove the "Fibre Body" cap/box or chop a hole in it to
> > > get to the lens cover screws. See:
>
> > >http://www.brandfxbody.com/fibrebody/inserts.htm
>
> > > --
> > > Jack Novak
> > > Buffalo, NY - USA
> > > [email protected]
>
> > Reminds me of the vehicle from the 70's where you had to tilt the
> > engine up to remove one of the sparkplugs. This was back when tune-ups
> > were a common preventative maintainence. A typical case of the design
> > engineers not getting the maintenance folks involved earlier enough.
> > No one asked "Hey, guys, if we build it like this, can you fix it when
> > it breaks?"
>
> > It took some backyard mechanic to figure out that if you drilled a
> > large hole in the wheel well, you could get to the spark plug,
> > Mechanics would use a hole saw, then install a sheet metal plug to
> > seal the access hole.
>
> IIRC, the Chevy Monza ( late 70's) with a 307(?) had a few issues like
> that.
> The hole in the inside fender was the only way to go.

On Sep 27, 10:24 pm, Puckdropper <[email protected]> wrote:
[snipped for brevity]

> Give students the option of where to go
> and what fields to study, and they'll get a better education.

If a kid wants to quit after 12 years of basic education, fine. Put
him/her in the Armend Forces for 2 years in a non-combat role. Leave
the combat to those who have made that choice for themselves. (Don't
flame me, this is a complicated issue as there is a distinction
between fighting for liberty, justice and democracy vs lining the
coffers of corporate entities.)

At the end, give them a coupon for 2 years free tuition.
If they want to go to college, at least they can make their own
farking bed, keep themselves clean, and respect authority.
For the kid that wants to go straight to college, make ROTC available
in exchange for tuition.

and bring back corporal punishment!

For some reason, parents and schools seem to omit the value of
discipline these days.

r

Robatoy wrote:
> HOW many can YOU do? (From Popular Mechanics)
>
> As Glenn Reynolds writes in his new PM column, traditional knowledge
> of how to build and fix ordinary things-around the house and in a jam-
> might be on the decline. With our lives becoming more driven by
> technology, blue-collar labor has been replaced with more white-collar
> employment, and teenagers are becoming better at programming Web sites
> than swinging hammers.
>
> Here at PM, where we at least try to do everything, we spent weeks
> fine-tuning our list of "25 Skills Every Man Should Know," debating
> over whether certain items were too basic, too challenging or just too
> obscure. You can find a full how-to rundown of each one in the October
> issue of Popular Mechanics, which just hit newsstands. But for now,
> check out our carefully selected list below, then offer your own
> arguments and suggestions in the comments section below, or tell us
> how to perform your must-know skill by writing to us here...
>
> The List: How to...
>
> 1. Patch a radiator hose
> 2. Protect your computer
> 3. Rescue a boater who as capsized
> 4. Frame a wall
> 5. Retouch digital photos
> 6. Back up a trailer
> 7. Build a campfire
> 8. Fix a dead outlet
> 9. Navigate with a map and compass
> 10. Use a torque wrench
> 11. Sharpen a knife
> 12. Perform CPR
> 13. Fillet a fish
> 14. Maneuver a car out of a skid
> 15. Get a car unstuck
> 16. Back up data
> 17. Paint a room
> 18. Mix concrete
> 19. Clean a bolt-action rifle
> 20. Change oil and filter
> 21. Hook up an HDTV
> 22. Bleed brakes
> 23. Paddle a canoe
> 24. Fix a bike flat
> 25. Extend your wireless network
>
>
> Well...shit....I can do all of those......( I must admit that hooking
> up The HDTV has a fair bit to do with WHAT protocol...yeah, I hooked
> up mine... 1080i and all that...)
>
I don't want an HDTV and I have neither a boat nor a rifle, nor have I
caught a fish in decades, so I claim exemption on those.

That's their list, though, so I'll substitute a few of my own:
1) build & maintain a compost pile
2) sharpen a drill bit freehand
3) train others to do everything I can
4) build a computer from parts
5) low-level a HD and install an operating system.
6) preach one-on-one
7) convert currency in your head
8) drive on the opposite side of the road in an 'opposite' car
9) live a belief -as written-
10) Make adversity look like part of plan "A"

Robatoy wrote:

> IIRC, the Chevy Monza ( late 70's) with a 307(?) had a few issues like
> that.
> The hole in the inside fender was the only way to go.
>
Chrysler Newport with a 383 was unlikely to have ever had plug #3
changed. Needed a double articulating wrench handle.

Morris Dovey wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>
> | HOW many can YOU do? (From Popular Mechanics)
>
> It's an interesting list, more so with the additions that've been
> suggested - and I've enjoyed Heinlein's list ever since I began
> reading his Lazerus Long books.
>
> To my surprise I've done most of that stuff except extending a
> wireless network (mine is already planet-wide - I'm a ham radio
> operator), setting up an HDTV (I've never had one to play with), and
> dying gallantly.
>
> That last provoked a train of thought that wandered hither and yon,
> and ended up with another (to me, at least) somewhat related question:
>
> Reaching back through time to consider those people you for whom you
> have the greatest admiration, what skills did they have (or probably
> have) in common?
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USA
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
>
>

Compassion.

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 07:54:01 -0700, DerbyDad03 <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Reminds me of the vehicle from the 70's where you had to tilt the
>engine up to remove one of the sparkplugs. This was back when tune-ups
>were a common preventative maintainence. A typical case of the design
>engineers not getting the maintenance folks involved earlier enough.
>No one asked "Hey, guys, if we build it like this, can you fix it when
>it breaks?"
>
>It took some backyard mechanic to figure out that if you drilled a
>large hole in the wheel well, you could get to the spark plug,
>Mechanics would use a hole saw, then install a sheet metal plug to
>seal the access hole.

The official procedure for changing the back three spark plugs on my
2000 Astro is to unbolt the body from the frame and jack it up about 3
inches. There is evidently a "dealer only" tool that will do the job
without that, but I kind of doubt it, there just isn't room to get the
plug out even if you could get a tool in.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

Definition of a teenager: God's punishment for enjoying sex.

Wed, Sep 12, 2007, 5:27pm (EDT-3) [email protected] (Robatoy) doth
mumble:
HOW many can YOU do? (From Popular Mechanics) <snip>
1. Patch a radiator hose
2. Protect your computer
3. Rescue a boater who as capsized
4. Frame a wall
5. Retouch digital photos
6. Back up a trailer
7. Build a campfire
8. Fix a dead outlet
9. Navigate with a map and compass
10. Use a torque wrench
11. Sharpen a knife
12. Perform CPR
13. Fillet a fish
14. Maneuver a car out of a skid
15. Get a car unstuck
16. Back up data
17. Paint a room
18. Mix concrete
19. Clean a bolt-action rifle
20. Change oil and filter
21. Hook up an HDTV
22. Bleed brakes
23. Paddle a canoe
24. Fix a bike flat
25. Extend your wireless network <snip>

All, with the below exceptions:
2. Don't got no computer. Anyway, no definition of 'protect'.
5. Don't take digital photos, and wouldn't care about retouching them
if I did.
14. You do know that this is not a guaranteed driving maneuver, don't
you? Expecially on ice, or packed snow.
15. You do realize that this could take the combined efforts of multiple
persons, and perhaps one, or more wreckers, do you not? And, if you get
stuck during a thaw, in wintertime, and then a freeze, you could be
there until the spring thaw.
16. Being as I do not have a computer, I backup up any files I want to
be sure are saved by printing them out..
23. I tend to stay out of boats I cannot confidentially stand up in.
25. That would depend on what you mean by 'extend'. I regularly add
numbers on my cell phone, but as I only have it for emergency use, I
only call to tel a doctor's office I will be late for an appointment,
etc. But, to actually use it to call people, just to talk to them? I
don't call people on my house phone, so no way I'd be interested in
talking on my cell phone.

How about adding some more 'lost' skills?
1. Change a tire.
2. Drive a stick shift.
3. Replace burnout lights on a vehicle.
4. Replace a window pane.
5. Re-roof a house (used to be common for people to do their own,
instead of paying someone else to do it)
6. How to look for information, whether on a computer, or in a library,
instead of just asking someone else to provide them an answer.
The list goes on. And on. And on.



JOAT
What is life without challenge and a constant stream of new
humiliations?
- Peter Egan

In article <[email protected]>, Jack Stein
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I can't
> think of anything useful that should take 16 years of study before
> actually doing something, including brain surgery.

"Twenty years of schoolin' and they put you on the day shift."

- Bob Dylan

--
Vince Heuring To email, remove the Vince.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Puckdropper" wrote in message
>
>> After 8th grade, make education optional and
>> non-taxed (i.e. tuition based). Give students the option of where to go
>> and what fields to study, and they'll get a better education.
>
> I like that concept ... too bad the educrats won't buy it.
>
> It'll threaten the pensions and benefits that are such a big part of the
> cost of what is laughably referred to as "education" in most urban
> settings these days.
>

It would do that indeed, but when was the last time you met a room full of
8th graders who really had any clue what they wanted to do when they grew
up? I sure as hell wouldn't want to trust the future development of this
country to the whims of 8th graders.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote in news:1189781801.152333.94460
@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

>
> 3 man and 1 woman were talking about this on CNN the other day...just
> the Top 10.
>
> re: Use a torque wrench - None of them had any idea what a torque
> wrench was.
> re: Fix a dead outlet - One guy commented - "Oh yeah...a great way to
> burn the house down!"
>

Electrical work is being mystified and mythified out of the realm of home
owners. Yes, you can burn your house down with an electrical fire. That
doesn't mean you have to live with a bad switch (more of a fire hazard)
that you don't want to pay an electrician $50 to come out and replace.
(This is the way it usually happens.)

People are scared because of all the fools out there that don't take the
time to learn how something's supposed to be done and plan it all out.

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

Robatoy wrote:

| HOW many can YOU do? (From Popular Mechanics)

It's an interesting list, more so with the additions that've been
suggested - and I've enjoyed Heinlein's list ever since I began
reading his Lazerus Long books.

To my surprise I've done most of that stuff except extending a
wireless network (mine is already planet-wide - I'm a ham radio
operator), setting up an HDTV (I've never had one to play with), and
dying gallantly.

That last provoked a train of thought that wandered hither and yon,
and ended up with another (to me, at least) somewhat related question:

Reaching back through time to consider those people you for whom you
have the greatest admiration, what skills did they have (or probably
have) in common?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

*snip*

>
> Can you write an airtight big-business contract or litigate?

*snip*

You mean it's not
$contract =~ s/Their Business/Your Business/
$contract =~ s/Their customer/Your Customer/

?

(That is replace their business with your business in the contract...)

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

Jack Stein <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

*snip*
>
> No, I only went to school for 17 years and about everything valuable I
> learned outside of school. The point is after 16 years of school in
> the US, you are prepared to do about nothing you would not have been
> able to do with a VERY rudimentary education. Our children are
> spending (wasting) unbelievable amounts of time on useless studies.
> More over, I think it is bazaar that all this hours spent learning and
> they don't know jack about some of the most basic things people should
> know, such as replacing a light switch or fixing a leaky faucet.

That's too bad. Once I got past my 12th year I was really learning some
useful stuff. Ideal gas laws, for example... So I set the air
compressor regulator on 35 psi and blow up a tire. I know from General
Chemistry that the tire will have 35 psi in it when I'm done.

>> I fly and bicycle with folks who have job titles like "professor",
>> "doctor", "scientist", and "attorney", and all of them needed more
>> than 16 years of school to do what they do.
>
> That's because they pretty much wasted the first 16 years of their
> education learning useless things or things that could have been
> learned in FAR less time.

Yeah... Reading, Writing (letter making, not actual writing), and how to
use a calculator.

>
> That's sad, plenty of people pull in millions a year and never
> finished college or even high school. The relationship between 16
> years of school and a few years of grad school is way out of balance I
> agree. Too bad everyone is pretty much forced to waste 16 years of
> their life in inferior schools learning pretty much nothing worth
> while or marketable, and have to put in another 4 years at least
> before they can have half a chance at getting some easy cash. Even
> after 20 years of school, many professionals are still worth little
> until they get some real experience under their belt, and they
> probably learned about 40% of what they need in the last 4 years of
> school, and 50% in the next 4 years on the job. The other 10% they
> learned in the first 16 years of wasted time. I think a little less
> time spent conjugating verbs and a little learning how things work and
> how to maintain them would be a giant improvement.

I agree that 5-12 grades is a waste of time. It's doubtful you'll have
really good schools with teachers that actually care about students
learning the material, you'll probably just simply get Wardens with
assigned drills. I was lucky, of the 4 schools I had during my 5th -
12th years, two of them were really good.

I guess part of the trouble is that most students don't want to be
there. Even the smart kids would rather be anywhere else but in this or
that pathetic class. After 8th grade, make education optional and
non-taxed (i.e. tuition based). Give students the option of where to go
and what fields to study, and they'll get a better education.

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Puckdropper" wrote in message
>>
>>> After 8th grade, make education optional and
>>> non-taxed (i.e. tuition based). Give students the option of where
>>> to go and what fields to study, and they'll get a better education.
>>
>> I like that concept ... too bad the educrats won't buy it.
>>
>> It'll threaten the pensions and benefits that are such a big part of
>> the cost of what is laughably referred to as "education" in most
>> urban settings these days.
>>
>
> It would do that indeed, but when was the last time you met a room
> full of 8th graders who really had any clue what they wanted to do
> when they grew up? I sure as hell wouldn't want to trust the future
> development of this country to the whims of 8th graders.
>

That's why your degree program is still 50% general education. You
expose the students to sciences and business, while the other half is
what they want to study. The whole point is to make school interesting
AND get rid of the people who act out because they don't want to be
there.

It's too bad that the good of the young population is sacrificed in the
pursuit of the all mighty dollar.

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

*snip*

>
> I just finished a long 12 years of getting a kid through the cesspool,
> so it's fresh on my mind ... not to mention the $1100+ a month I pay
> in school taxes to perpetuate the mediocrity and feather the nest of
> the educrats.
>
> All it takes is attendance at one school board meeting to know that
> "education" is NOT the point, but instead, benefits and pensions.
>

Sometimes you don't even need to go that far. Some schools get to be so
worried about it that it's well known throughout the school that they're
trying to make money.

That's why sports are so popular ($$ for admission) and the "arts"
aren't. Copyrights don't allow schools (or other groups) to charge
admission fees for performances. I guess shop classes are the same way.
Materials, parts, but rarely any income.

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:10:49 -0400, B A R R Y <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:00:48 -0400, Jim Behning
><[email protected]> wrote:
>> My nephew did not have a tinkering father about. It was disappointing
>>when I went on a week long bicycle tour with him that he knew little
>>about basic bicycle tuning. He has learned a bit more in the past few
>>years as he has gotten even more in to bicycling. It is cool that he
>>is riding and racing. I like to think that his Uncle Jim that took
>>him off in the woods 12 years ago mountain bike riding and brought him
>>out looking like a beat dog had some influence on him. Come to think
>>of it he is not a big fan of mountain bike riding.
>
>One of the most talented orthopedic surgeons in my area is an avid
>mountain biking enthusiast, and nearly a fearless technical terrain
>rider. He is also the worlds WORST bicycle mechanic.
>
>But, boy, can he fix people! <G>
>
>---------------------------------------------
>** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
>---------------------------------------------
I hope my nephew learns a trade. I think he is about 17 years in to
his education. Fast track in college but can't leave. Working on
doctorate.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> HOW many can YOU do? (From Popular Mechanics)
>
> As Glenn Reynolds writes in his new PM column, traditional knowledge
> of how to build and fix ordinary things-around the house and in a jam-
> might be on the decline. With our lives becoming more driven by
> technology, blue-collar labor has been replaced with more white-collar
> employment, and teenagers are becoming better at programming Web sites
> than swinging hammers.
>
> Here at PM, where we at least try to do everything, we spent weeks
> fine-tuning our list of "25 Skills Every Man Should Know," debating
> over whether certain items were too basic, too challenging or just too
> obscure. You can find a full how-to rundown of each one in the October
> issue of Popular Mechanics, which just hit newsstands. But for now,
> check out our carefully selected list below, then offer your own
> arguments and suggestions in the comments section below, or tell us
> how to perform your must-know skill by writing to us here...
>
> The List: How to...
>
> 1. Patch a radiator hose
> 2. Protect your computer
> 3. Rescue a boater who as capsized
> 4. Frame a wall
> 5. Retouch digital photos
> 6. Back up a trailer
> 7. Build a campfire
> 8. Fix a dead outlet
> 9. Navigate with a map and compass
> 10. Use a torque wrench
> 11. Sharpen a knife
> 12. Perform CPR
> 13. Fillet a fish
> 14. Maneuver a car out of a skid
> 15. Get a car unstuck
> 16. Back up data
> 17. Paint a room
> 18. Mix concrete
> 19. Clean a bolt-action rifle
> 20. Change oil and filter
> 21. Hook up an HDTV
> 22. Bleed brakes
> 23. Paddle a canoe
> 24. Fix a bike flat
> 25. Extend your wireless network
>
>
> Well...shit....I can do all of those......( I must admit that hooking
> up The HDTV has a fair bit to do with WHAT protocol...yeah, I hooked
> up mine... 1080i and all that...)
>

Bring a women to the big O is sorely missing from the list.

In article <[email protected]>, Jim Behning <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 17:27:35 -0700, Robatoy <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>HOW many can YOU do? (From Popular Mechanics)
>>
>>As Glenn Reynolds writes in his new PM column, traditional knowledge
>>of how to build and fix ordinary things-around the house and in a jam-
>>might be on the decline. With our lives becoming more driven by
>>technology, blue-collar labor has been replaced with more white-collar
>>employment, and teenagers are becoming better at programming Web sites
>>than swinging hammers.
>>
>>Here at PM, where we at least try to do everything, we spent weeks
>>fine-tuning our list of "25 Skills Every Man Should Know," debating
>>over whether certain items were too basic, too challenging or just too
>>obscure. You can find a full how-to rundown of each one in the October
>>issue of Popular Mechanics, which just hit newsstands. But for now,
>>check out our carefully selected list below, then offer your own
>>arguments and suggestions in the comments section below, or tell us
>>how to perform your must-know skill by writing to us here...
>>
>>The List: How to...
>>
>>1. Patch a radiator hose
>>2. Protect your computer
>>3. Rescue a boater who as capsized
>>4. Frame a wall
>>5. Retouch digital photos
>>6. Back up a trailer
>>7. Build a campfire
>>8. Fix a dead outlet
>>9. Navigate with a map and compass
>>10. Use a torque wrench
>>11. Sharpen a knife
>>12. Perform CPR
>>13. Fillet a fish
>>14. Maneuver a car out of a skid
>>15. Get a car unstuck
>>16. Back up data
>>17. Paint a room
>>18. Mix concrete
>>19. Clean a bolt-action rifle
>>20. Change oil and filter
>>21. Hook up an HDTV
>>22. Bleed brakes
>>23. Paddle a canoe
>>24. Fix a bike flat
>>25. Extend your wireless network
>>
>>
>>Well...shit....I can do all of those......( I must admit that hooking
>>up The HDTV has a fair bit to do with WHAT protocol...yeah, I hooked
>>up mine... 1080i and all that...)
>Sharpen a knife fast so you can fillet a man to perform open chest
>cpr? Frame a photo? Retouch a trailer? Paint concrete? Where is build
>a 36x72 pole barn? Tile your bathrooms, install hardwood floors, hang
>cabinets? Install a mile of wire fence? Castrate pigs? Sharpen the hoe
>and hoe the corn?

Cook a meal (using a stove, not a grill)

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Robatoy <[email protected]> writes:
>HOW many can YOU do? (From Popular Mechanics)

>The List: How to...
>
>1. Patch a radiator hose
>2. Protect your computer
>3. Rescue a boater who as capsized
>4. Frame a wall
>5. Retouch digital photos
>6. Back up a trailer
>7. Build a campfire
>8. Fix a dead outlet
>9. Navigate with a map and compass
>10. Use a torque wrench
>11. Sharpen a knife
>12. Perform CPR
>13. Fillet a fish
>14. Maneuver a car out of a skid
>15. Get a car unstuck
>16. Back up data
>17. Paint a room
>18. Mix concrete
>19. Clean a bolt-action rifle
>20. Change oil and filter
>21. Hook up an HDTV
>22. Bleed brakes
>23. Paddle a canoe
>24. Fix a bike flat
>25. Extend your wireless network
>

As the the fictional Lazerus Long said (Robert A. Heinlein):

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog,
conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall,
set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone,
solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.

Specialization is for insects.

Jack Stein wrote:
>
> I was looking at a house for my son to rent his senior year at college
> and asked one of the kids moving out if he had a job lined up. He said
> no, he was going to continue his education. I said you would think
> after 16 years of school, and a TON of money for college he would have
> finally been ready for employment...

There are plenty of occupations where 4 years of college is not enough.

"J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> 3. Replace burnout lights on a vehicle.

That may be one of the toughest on any list, the way cars are designed
today. Depending on the light, it may take an hour or more to remove all
the panels and covers to get to the bulb.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

B A R R Y wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 09:52:41 -0400, Jack Stein <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>I can't
>>think of anything useful that should take 16 years of study before
>>actually doing something, including brain surgery.
>
>
> So, you can do brain surgery? How about a root canal?
>
> Can you write an airtight big-business contract or litigate?
>
> Can you formulate and run a pharmaceutical research study?
>
> Can you teach future physicists?

No, I only went to school for 17 years and about everything valuable I
learned outside of school. The point is after 16 years of school in the
US, you are prepared to do about nothing you would not have been able to
do with a VERY rudimentary education. Our children are spending
(wasting) unbelievable amounts of time on useless studies. More over, I
think it is bazaar that all this hours spent learning and they don't
know jack about some of the most basic things people should know, such
as replacing a light switch or fixing a leaky faucet.

> I fly and bicycle with folks who have job titles like "professor",
> "doctor", "scientist", and "attorney", and all of them needed more
> than 16 years of school to do what they do.

That's because they pretty much wasted the first 16 years of their
education learning useless things or things that could have been learned
in FAR less time.

> I also don't think any of
> them pulls in less than $250,000 / year, so I'll bet they can get that
> outlet replaced. <G>

That's sad, plenty of people pull in millions a year and never finished
college or even high school. The relationship between 16 years of
school and a few years of grad school is way out of balance I agree. Too
bad everyone is pretty much forced to waste 16 years of their life in
inferior schools learning pretty much nothing worth while or marketable,
and have to put in another 4 years at least before they can have half a
chance at getting some easy cash. Even after 20 years of school, many
professionals are still worth little until they get some real experience
under their belt, and they probably learned about 40% of what they need
in the last 4 years of school, and 50% in the next 4 years on the job.
The other 10% they learned in the first 16 years of wasted time. I
think a little less time spent conjugating verbs and a little learning
how things work and how to maintain them would be a giant improvement.

--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

Nova <[email protected]> wrote in news:iQDGi.286$Lm2.103@trndny09:

> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> "J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>>3. Replace burnout lights on a vehicle.
>>
>>
>> That may be one of the toughest on any list, the way cars are
>> designed today. Depending on the light, it may take an hour or more
>> to remove all the panels and covers to get to the bulb.
>
> To replace a rear tail light on the company Silverado pickup I drive
> you have to either remove the "Fibre Body" cap/box or chop a hole in
> it to get to the lens cover screws. See:
>
> http://www.brandfxbody.com/fibrebody/inserts.htm
>

Strange. In California, in 8 years of driving my Sierra, I've never needed
to change a taillight in it. Daytime running lamps, on the other hand...

Patriarch

B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 00:55:53 GMT, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Patriarch wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Strange. In California, in 8 years of driving my Sierra, I've never
>>> needed to change a taillight in it. Daytime running lamps, on the
>>> other hand...
>>>
>>> Patriarch
>>
>>Check the lamp socket. You'll probably find it's scorched and the
>>socket needs replacement. Five trucks in one office, all with the same
>>trouble, and GM says "What problem?".
>
> So THAT would be why I see so many of the previous version of GM truck
> with only one DRL?
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> ** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
> ---------------------------------------------
>

I went into the dealer after about three years of messing with the auto
parts store lamps lasting a short time. The old guy at the parts
counter reached into a box under the counter, pulled out three or four
lamps, and said "Here, these should work. No charge." And they did.
One finally burned out, and I can't find the others in my garage now.
;-)

I suspect they knew they had a problem.

No sign of burning on the lamp socket, but this is a warm weather truck
that's seen snow MAYBE once...

Patriarch

BillinDetroit <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> 10) Make adversity look like part of plan "A"
>

That's a skill!!

Regards

--Bob

"Puckdropper" wrote in message

> After 8th grade, make education optional and
> non-taxed (i.e. tuition based). Give students the option of where to go
> and what fields to study, and they'll get a better education.

I like that concept ... too bad the educrats won't buy it.

It'll threaten the pensions and benefits that are such a big part of the
cost of what is laughably referred to as "education" in most urban settings
these days.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/08/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> 6. Back up a trailer

I can still remember the first time I did that one, a friend's boat trailer
while he waited in the boat.

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 00:55:53 GMT, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:

>Patriarch wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Strange. In California, in 8 years of driving my Sierra, I've never needed
>> to change a taillight in it. Daytime running lamps, on the other hand...
>>
>> Patriarch
>
>Check the lamp socket. You'll probably find it's scorched and the
>socket needs replacement. Five trucks in one office, all with the same
>trouble, and GM says "What problem?".

So THAT would be why I see so many of the previous version of GM truck
with only one DRL?

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

B A R R Y wrote:
> Jack Stein wrote:

>> I was looking at a house for my son to rent his senior year at college
>> and asked one of the kids moving out if he had a job lined up. He
>> said no, he was going to continue his education. I said you would
>> think after 16 years of school, and a TON of money for college he
>> would have finally been ready for employment...

> There are plenty of occupations where 4 years of college is not enough.

The interesting thing is after 16 years of education all he has learned
is how to learn. Probably still can't fix a leaky faucet, replace a
light switch, or any other myriad of things a rounded person should be
able to do in every day life, let alone a marketable skill. I can't
think of anything useful that should take 16 years of study before
actually doing something, including brain surgery.

--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

Robatoy wrote:
> On Sep 15, 10:54 am, DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Sep 14, 6:22 pm, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> "J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> 3. Replace burnout lights on a vehicle.
>>>> That may be one of the toughest on any list, the way cars are designed
>>>> today. Depending on the light, it may take an hour or more to remove all
>>>> the panels and covers to get to the bulb.
>>> To replace a rear tail light on the company Silverado pickup I drive you
>>> have to either remove the "Fibre Body" cap/box or chop a hole in it to
>>> get to the lens cover screws. See:
>>> http://www.brandfxbody.com/fibrebody/inserts.htm
>>> --
>>> Jack Novak
>>> Buffalo, NY - USA
>>> [email protected]
>> Reminds me of the vehicle from the 70's where you had to tilt the
>> engine up to remove one of the sparkplugs. This was back when tune-ups
>> were a common preventative maintainence. A typical case of the design
>> engineers not getting the maintenance folks involved earlier enough.
>> No one asked "Hey, guys, if we build it like this, can you fix it when
>> it breaks?"
>>
>> It took some backyard mechanic to figure out that if you drilled a
>> large hole in the wheel well, you could get to the spark plug,
>> Mechanics would use a hole saw, then install a sheet metal plug to
>> seal the access hole.
>
> IIRC, the Chevy Monza ( late 70's) with a 307(?) had a few issues like
> that.
> The hole in the inside fender was the only way to go.

Late sixties (like '68, '69, ...) Charger w/ 383 or larger CID.

But, nothing then was even close to the nightmare of the modern
transverse engine jobbies w/ smaller frames to cut down weight...look
into how to replace a battery on a modern Chrysler 300M or similar... :(

--

DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Sep 14, 6:22 pm, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>>> "J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>> 3. Replace burnout lights on a vehicle.
>>
>>> That may be one of the toughest on any list, the way cars are
>>> designed today. Depending on the light, it may take an hour or
>>> more to remove all the panels and covers to get to the bulb.
>>
>> To replace a rear tail light on the company Silverado pickup I
>> drive
>> you have to either remove the "Fibre Body" cap/box or chop a hole
>> in
>> it to get to the lens cover screws. See:
>>
>> http://www.brandfxbody.com/fibrebody/inserts.htm
>>
>> --
>> Jack Novak
>> Buffalo, NY - USA
>> [email protected]
>
> Reminds me of the vehicle from the 70's where you had to tilt the
> engine up to remove one of the sparkplugs. This was back when
> tune-ups
> were a common preventative maintainence. A typical case of the
> design
> engineers not getting the maintenance folks involved earlier enough.
> No one asked "Hey, guys, if we build it like this, can you fix it
> when
> it breaks?"

That was the AMC Pacer and the real problem was that it was designed
for a Wankel engine that didn't happen, but by the time it was
realized that the Wankel wasn't going to happen it was too late in the
design cycle to fix the problem.

>
> It took some backyard mechanic to figure out that if you drilled a
> large hole in the wheel well, you could get to the spark plug,
> Mechanics would use a hole saw, then install a sheet metal plug to
> seal the access hole.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

B A R R Y wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 09:52:41 -0400, Jack Stein
> <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> I can't
>> think of anything useful that should take 16 years of study before
>> actually doing something, including brain surgery.
>
> So, you can do brain surgery? How about a root canal?
>
> Can you write an airtight big-business contract or litigate?
>
> Can you formulate and run a pharmaceutical research study?
>
> Can you teach future physicists?

None of this is really on point--the issue is not whether he can
perform some specific task, the issue is whether 16 years of education
is actually required in order to obtain the skills necessary to
perform those tasks.

Further, some of the tasks you describe depend more on experience than
on schooling. If you were up for murder, which would you rather have,
some guy who is fresh out of Harvard Law or some guy who challenged
the bar exam (which one used to be able to do in some states) and then
spent the last 20 years successfully defending accused criminals?

> I fly and bicycle with folks who have job titles like "professor",
> "doctor", "scientist", and "attorney", and all of them needed more
> than 16 years of school to do what they do. I also don't think any
> of
> them pulls in less than $250,000 / year, so I'll bet they can get
> that
> outlet replaced. <G>

Well then theyr'e damned lucky, because I know a number of people with
such titles who are having a Hell of a time making ends meet.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:22:06 GMT, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>To replace a rear tail light on the company Silverado pickup I drive you
>have to either remove the "Fibre Body" cap/box or chop a hole in it to
>get to the lens cover screws.

Ahhh... Power tool bulb replacement!

The cap was probably designed when bulbs were replace by removing the
lens cover.

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** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
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Puckdropper wrote:

> Electrical work is being mystified and mythified out of the realm of home
> owners. Yes, you can burn your house down with an electrical fire. That
> doesn't mean you have to live with a bad switch (more of a fire hazard)
> that you don't want to pay an electrician $50 to come out and replace.
> (This is the way it usually happens.)
>
> People are scared because of all the fools out there that don't take the
> time to learn how something's supposed to be done and plan it all out.

Thats because they spend 16 years of school learning English and not one
hour teaching them how to safely fix a light switch, or a leaky faucet,
or how to change a flat, or how to paint a house or anything much
useful. I might add most/many Americans could speak english about as
good the first day they walked into school as when they left 12/16 years
later.

I was looking at a house for my son to rent his senior year at college
and asked one of the kids moving out if he had a job lined up. He said
no, he was going to continue his education. I said you would think
after 16 years of school, and a TON of money for college he would have
finally been ready for employment... He said they mainly taught him how
to study.... 16 years of school and so far all he learned was how to
study.... go figure!

--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:33:51 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

>Robatoy wrote:
>> On Sep 15, 10:54 am, DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On Sep 14, 6:22 pm, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>> "J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> 3. Replace burnout lights on a vehicle.
>>>>> That may be one of the toughest on any list, the way cars are designed
>>>>> today. Depending on the light, it may take an hour or more to remove all
>>>>> the panels and covers to get to the bulb.
>>>> To replace a rear tail light on the company Silverado pickup I drive you
>>>> have to either remove the "Fibre Body" cap/box or chop a hole in it to
>>>> get to the lens cover screws. See:
>>>> http://www.brandfxbody.com/fibrebody/inserts.htm
>>>> --
>>>> Jack Novak
>>>> Buffalo, NY - USA
>>>> [email protected]
>>> Reminds me of the vehicle from the 70's where you had to tilt the
>>> engine up to remove one of the sparkplugs. This was back when tune-ups
>>> were a common preventative maintainence. A typical case of the design
>>> engineers not getting the maintenance folks involved earlier enough.
>>> No one asked "Hey, guys, if we build it like this, can you fix it when
>>> it breaks?"
>>>
>>> It took some backyard mechanic to figure out that if you drilled a
>>> large hole in the wheel well, you could get to the spark plug,
>>> Mechanics would use a hole saw, then install a sheet metal plug to
>>> seal the access hole.
>>
>> IIRC, the Chevy Monza ( late 70's) with a 307(?) had a few issues like
>> that.
>> The hole in the inside fender was the only way to go.
>
>Late sixties (like '68, '69, ...) Charger w/ 383 or larger CID.
>
>But, nothing then was even close to the nightmare of the modern
>transverse engine jobbies w/ smaller frames to cut down weight...look
>into how to replace a battery on a modern Chrysler 300M or similar... :(
Were they hard to change in Mopars? We had a 67 Monaco with a 383, a
70 Fury with a 383, a 75 Gran Fury with a 440 and a 72 Polara with a
440. I don't recall swearing over spark plugs but my Dad was the son
of a minister. I was a kid who was not in charge of spark plug
changing. Maybe taking the garbage cans to the street and shoveling
snow. I do recall it being tight but do-able unlike the infamous Monza
spark plugs.

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
>
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Puckdropper" wrote in message
> >
> >> After 8th grade, make education optional and
> >> non-taxed (i.e. tuition based). Give students the option of where to
go
> >> and what fields to study, and they'll get a better education.
> >
> > I like that concept ... too bad the educrats won't buy it.
> >
> > It'll threaten the pensions and benefits that are such a big part of the
> > cost of what is laughably referred to as "education" in most urban
> > settings these days.
> >
>
> It would do that indeed, but when was the last time you met a room full of
> 8th graders who really had any clue what they wanted to do when they grew
> up? I sure as hell wouldn't want to trust the future development of this
> country to the whims of 8th graders.

Problem is, you're effectively doing the functional equivalent of that
already.

8th grade is a good 'fork in the road' ...

Those who have the desire to continue with a classic education and go on to
college can continue on a different track without being drug down by the
shenanigans of those who have no desire to ever go to college.

Those who want to go into a trade or technical field don't have to sit
through the crap and can immediately get down to the business of learning
the skills that will eventually get them though life.

A much better solution for all concerned, including the country, IMO.

IIRC, the UK once did that (and may still do), after what was known as the
"11 plus exams", where a pupil's aptitude was determined, based on the exam
results, as to which "path" they took.

http://www.summitsat.co.uk/about-11-plus-exam.php

Living in the UK during the time, I'm still impressed by the high level of
"education", in the finest sense of the word, reached by the general
population, regardless of which "fork" they took. Even to this obtuse 20
something at the time, it was obvious that the general population far
exceeded the education level of most Americans, even back then in the 60's.

We need to do something ... this thing we call Houston Independent School
District, as in most major cities, is nothing but an urban cesspool that is
a training ground for thugs and gangs.

I just finished a long 12 years of getting a kid through the cesspool, so
it's fresh on my mind ... not to mention the $1100+ a month I pay in school
taxes to perpetuate the mediocrity and feather the nest of the educrats.

All it takes is attendance at one school board meeting to know that
"education" is NOT the point, but instead, benefits and pensions.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

> "J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>3. Replace burnout lights on a vehicle.
>
>
> That may be one of the toughest on any list, the way cars are designed
> today. Depending on the light, it may take an hour or more to remove all
> the panels and covers to get to the bulb.

To replace a rear tail light on the company Silverado pickup I drive you
have to either remove the "Fibre Body" cap/box or chop a hole in it to
get to the lens cover screws. See:

http://www.brandfxbody.com/fibrebody/inserts.htm

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:33:51 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>But, nothing then was even close to the nightmare of the modern
>transverse engine jobbies w/ smaller frames to cut down weight...

Ever work on a Ford van with a big block?

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** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 09:52:41 -0400, Jack Stein <[email protected]>
wrote:
> I can't
>think of anything useful that should take 16 years of study before
>actually doing something, including brain surgery.

So, you can do brain surgery? How about a root canal?

Can you write an airtight big-business contract or litigate?

Can you formulate and run a pharmaceutical research study?

Can you teach future physicists?

I fly and bicycle with folks who have job titles like "professor",
"doctor", "scientist", and "attorney", and all of them needed more
than 16 years of school to do what they do. I also don't think any of
them pulls in less than $250,000 / year, so I'll bet they can get that
outlet replaced. <G>


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** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

Patriarch wrote:

>
>
> Strange. In California, in 8 years of driving my Sierra, I've never needed
> to change a taillight in it. Daytime running lamps, on the other hand...
>
> Patriarch

Check the lamp socket. You'll probably find it's scorched and the
socket needs replacement. Five trucks in one office, all with the same
trouble, and GM says "What problem?".

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:18:51 -0700, Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>No, I haven't. THAT is one temptation I have succussfully fought off.
>I have WANTED to......


One of my PA hauling trucks was a 460 powered ex-Penske 14.5' Ford
Hi-cube. These vehicles were famous for (6) plug spark plug
replacements! You COULD NOT get to the middle of the engine! At
least the 351W power trucks could be serviced! However, the 460 Ford
would pass anything but a gas station... 3-4 MPG, empty or loaded!

My other trucks were ex-Ryder rental 22' and 24' bodied GMC 7000 and
Chevy C70, 366 V8 powered (ceramic clutch and all!) trucks that were
amazingly easy to service. Ryder would sell off their 4 year olds,
paint 'em whatever color you wanted and give a 1 year warranty.

I also had a twin-screw 28' Top Kick, but it was a diesel, so the
maintenance was much different.

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** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
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On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:00:48 -0400, Jim Behning
<[email protected]> wrote:
> My nephew did not have a tinkering father about. It was disappointing
>when I went on a week long bicycle tour with him that he knew little
>about basic bicycle tuning. He has learned a bit more in the past few
>years as he has gotten even more in to bicycling. It is cool that he
>is riding and racing. I like to think that his Uncle Jim that took
>him off in the woods 12 years ago mountain bike riding and brought him
>out looking like a beat dog had some influence on him. Come to think
>of it he is not a big fan of mountain bike riding.

One of the most talented orthopedic surgeons in my area is an avid
mountain biking enthusiast, and nearly a fearless technical terrain
rider. He is also the worlds WORST bicycle mechanic.

But, boy, can he fix people! <G>

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** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
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On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:38:12 -0400, Jack Stein <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Puckdropper wrote:
>
>> Electrical work is being mystified and mythified out of the realm of home
>> owners. Yes, you can burn your house down with an electrical fire. That
>> doesn't mean you have to live with a bad switch (more of a fire hazard)
>> that you don't want to pay an electrician $50 to come out and replace.
>> (This is the way it usually happens.)
>>
>> People are scared because of all the fools out there that don't take the
>> time to learn how something's supposed to be done and plan it all out.
>
>Thats because they spend 16 years of school learning English and not one
>hour teaching them how to safely fix a light switch, or a leaky faucet,
>or how to change a flat, or how to paint a house or anything much
>useful. I might add most/many Americans could speak english about as
>good the first day they walked into school as when they left 12/16 years
>later.
>
>I was looking at a house for my son to rent his senior year at college
>and asked one of the kids moving out if he had a job lined up. He said
>no, he was going to continue his education. I said you would think
>after 16 years of school, and a TON of money for college he would have
>finally been ready for employment... He said they mainly taught him how
>to study.... 16 years of school and so far all he learned was how to
>study.... go figure!

I did not learn how to do the income earning things I have done the
past 24 years in 16 years of formal education. I learned how to tinker
from my Dad. Cooking and baking from my Mom.

My nephew did not have a tinkering father about. It was disappointing
when I went on a week long bicycle tour with him that he knew little
about basic bicycle tuning. He has learned a bit more in the past few
years as he has gotten even more in to bicycling. It is cool that he
is riding and racing. I like to think that his Uncle Jim that took
him off in the woods 12 years ago mountain bike riding and brought him
out looking like a beat dog had some influence on him. Come to think
of it he is not a big fan of mountain bike riding.

I think that a lot of tinkering skills are learned from parents and
friends. On the other hand I did not have a great wood shop teacher in
high school. A better one in college but I only took a semester of
shop in college. Maybe better shop teachers might have had more
influence on me. One of my high school buddy's dad had a one man car
repair shop. I used to like hanging out there.