I am trying to get a new piece to match an existing "cherry" dresser. The
dresser appears to have colored lacquer on it, so my attempts at matching
with stain (even gel stain) aren't working. Mine looks too much like wood!
So, I bought some water soluble dye. The first application raised the
grain, and my sanding removed most of the dyed wood. I guess I expected it
to penetrate better. So I put on a second application, and that has raised
grain also.
Obviously I am doing something wrong. How do you deal with raised grain?
I have used isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol) to dissolve the water
soluble dye with NO grain raising. On maple.
If your isopropyl alcohol has been laying around a while it might have a
higher concentration of H2O dissolved. Get a fresh bottle of isopropyl
alcohol.
Give it a try on a sample piece of cherry first.
"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am trying to get a new piece to match an existing "cherry" dresser. The
> dresser appears to have colored lacquer on it, so my attempts at matching
> with stain (even gel stain) aren't working. Mine looks too much like
wood!
>
> So, I bought some water soluble dye. The first application raised the
> grain, and my sanding removed most of the dyed wood. I guess I expected
it
> to penetrate better. So I put on a second application, and that has
raised
> grain also.
>
> Obviously I am doing something wrong. How do you deal with raised grain?
>
>
E-mail from Homesteadfinishing:
You may find some of the primary colors like blue, turq blue, reds and black
to be somewhat soluble. Methanol is the best. The wood tone colors can be
mixed with the alcohols mentioned - however you should dissolve them first
in water. You may see a color shift when doing this.
The TransTint liquid dyes will dissolve in both water and the alcohols you
list.
"
"BruceR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> stoutman wrote:
> > From Homestead webpage for Transtint Dye
> >
> > "Mix with tap or distilled water for an economical, non-flammable
stain.OR
> > mix with alcohol for a fast-drying, non-grain raising stain. No waiting
or
> > straining is necessary because the dye is pre-dissolved.
>
> Ahh, the TransTint liquid dyes, I see.
>
> My guess is that the TransFast and TransTint are the same base aniline
> powders so as long as I can get the initial mix going with out any lumps
> I should be able to dilute with either water or meth/ethanol
> .
>
> -Bruce
>
> >
> > http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/TransTint.htm
> >
> > By specifically calling it a Water soluble dye they are telling you that
it
> > will dissolve in water. This does not mean in will dissolve in alcohol,
but
> > it also doesn't mean it won't. I have only used the Transtint
Waterbased
> > dye and it dissolves in alcohol completely miscible.
> >
> > You should try Methanol first (MORE POLAR) and if its soluble in
Methanol
> > try Ethanol (Slightly less polar and higher boiling point thus easier to
> > work with).
> >
> >
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
BruceR wrote:
>
> There are two basic types of dyes that can be used, water based and
> everything else 8^) to use the WB dyes, you need to wet down the wood
> after sanding, let dry (day or two), then sand lightly again. This will
> eliminate most of the grain raising caused by applying the water based
> dye. To avoid the grain raising caused by the water you can mix the
> water based dyes (TransFast) with Glycol and apply or use the non-WB
> dyes (TransTint or other oil or alcohol based). I've never tried mixing
> the WB dyes with alcohol.
>
> -Bruce
>
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
I'm with you, a water based stain is a dye dissolved in
water. If you dissolve it in alcohol, even if diluted, you
ought to call it an alcohol stain.
Toller wrote:
>
> I am trying to get a new piece to match an existing "cherry" dresser. The
> dresser appears to have colored lacquer on it, so my attempts at matching
> with stain (even gel stain) aren't working. Mine looks too much like wood!
>
> So, I bought some water soluble dye. The first application raised the
> grain, and my sanding removed most of the dyed wood. I guess I expected it
> to penetrate better. So I put on a second application, and that has raised
> grain also.
>
> Obviously I am doing something wrong. How do you deal with raised grain?
Just to emphasize what Mike G said, when you sand after
wetting it the purpose is to cut off the hairs, so sand with
a fine grade VERY lightly. You do not want to cut below the
hairs that stick up or you will just make more hairs stand
up when it gets wet.
My experience with water stains is that the wood remains
looking like wood; that is why it is a very desirable
stain. Repeated applications of the stain are unlikely to
increase the darkness as you may anticipate. If the dresser
has a stain dissolved in the lacquer, you are unlikely to
ever get it to match without using the same material. The
objective of water stains is clearity and transparency; the
finish is clear. Muddy looking, non-wood looking probably
has the pigment or dye dissolved in the finish coats.
There are two basic types of dyes that can be used, water based and
everything else 8^) to use the WB dyes, you need to wet down the wood
after sanding, let dry (day or two), then sand lightly again. This will
eliminate most of the grain raising caused by applying the water based
dye. To avoid the grain raising caused by the water you can mix the
water based dyes (TransFast) with Glycol and apply or use the non-WB
dyes (TransTint or other oil or alcohol based). I've never tried mixing
the WB dyes with alcohol.
-Bruce
[email protected] wrote:
> Local drug stores carry both 70% and 91% isopropyl. TransTint dyes
> from Jeff Jewitt site Tom provided can be mixed in many solutions
> including waterbased polyurethane and shellac to make toners. I'm
> using them in PSL now for some wall units our daughter wants. Several
> coats of toner gets the final color wanted with obscuring the grain.
> Zinssers Seal Coat is wax free 2# cut shellac that probably would
> accept TransTint dyes.
>
> On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 03:14:04 GMT, "stoutman" <.@.> wrote:
>
>
>>If your isopropyl alcohol has been laying around a while it might have a
>>higher concentration of H2O dissolved. Get a fresh bottle of isopropyl
>>alcohol.
>
>
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
stoutman wrote:
> Water based simply means it dissolves in WATER miscible solvents (POLAR
> SOLVENTS). This is different from oil based dyes that dissolve in OIL
> miscible solvents (NONPOLAR SOLVENTS, i.e. mineral spirits).
>
Stoutman,
interesting! What is the difference then between the TransFast WB dyes
and the TransFast alcohol dyes at homestead fininshing? I use the WB
dyes since I can spray them and cleanup is easy. The AB dyes cost a lot
more plus the added cost of the solvent. If what you imply works, I can
avoid the grain raising issues for only the added cost of alcohol. I'd
reckon I could still lighten the tone after application and drying with
a damp rag (water or alcohol)
-Bruce
>
>
>>I've never tried mixing the WB dyes with alcohol.
>
>
> You GOTTA try it. :)
>
>
>
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stoutman wrote:
>>What is the difference then between the TransFast WB dyes
>>and the TransFast alcohol dyes at homestead fininshing?
>
>
> The transfast dyes are marketed as WATER SOLUBLE dyes NOT WATER BASED DYES
> on their web page. Take a small amount and see if it will dissolve in
> alcohol, if it does your in luck.
Ahhh, the "fine print"!
>
> Water based dyes WILL dissolve in other POLAR solvents. The TRANS TINT
> water based dyes sold by homestead even say on their web page that you CAN
> use alcohol for a nongrain raising stain.
I couldn't find this. I'm guessing that they ment one should use the
alcohol soluble dyes (with alcohol of course) instead of the water
soluble dyes.
Ok, I remember reading details somewhere and I believe in Flexner's book
that you can avoid using water (and raising the grain) if you substitute
(I hope I get this right) Glycol Ether for the water.
Either way I'll try mixing up some of the WS dye with isopropyl alcohol
to see what it does. If it works, coolio! otherwise I'll need to weigh
in the costs of true alcohol soluble dyes + solvent versus the WS dyes +
glycol ehter if I have a dye project where resanding would be too much work.
-Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
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-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
stoutman wrote:
> From Homestead webpage for Transtint Dye
>
> "Mix with tap or distilled water for an economical, non-flammable stain.OR
> mix with alcohol for a fast-drying, non-grain raising stain. No waiting or
> straining is necessary because the dye is pre-dissolved.
Ahh, the TransTint liquid dyes, I see.
My guess is that the TransFast and TransTint are the same base aniline
powders so as long as I can get the initial mix going with out any lumps
I should be able to dilute with either water or meth/ethanol
.
-Bruce
>
> http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/TransTint.htm
>
> By specifically calling it a Water soluble dye they are telling you that it
> will dissolve in water. This does not mean in will dissolve in alcohol, but
> it also doesn't mean it won't. I have only used the Transtint Waterbased
> dye and it dissolves in alcohol completely miscible.
>
> You should try Methanol first (MORE POLAR) and if its soluble in Methanol
> try Ethanol (Slightly less polar and higher boiling point thus easier to
> work with).
>
>
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
Sounds good, but you are wrong. Yeah, some aniline dyes
will dissolve in either water or alcohol. But, some
dissolve in alcohol but not in water and some don't dissolve
well in alcohol. So when you buy dyes you better specify
what you want.
The "only" problem you see is "the" problem. I don't, and
have never used alcohol dyes because the literature state
that streaks are highly likely until you get the technique
down and you better spray if you have a larger area. You
have to be a complete dunce to get streaks with a water dye.
YMMV.
stoutman wrote:
>
> Water based simply means it dissolves in WATER miscible solvents (POLAR
> SOLVENTS). This is different from oil based dyes that dissolve in OIL
> miscible solvents (NONPOLAR SOLVENTS, i.e. mineral spirits).
>
> Water based stains do not have to be dissolved in water. They are freely
> miscible in other POLAR solvents. This includes methanol, ethanol,
> isopropyl alcohol and acetone. (I think they are even soluble in Diethyl
> Ether, but it evaporates to quickly). Water based stains are NOT miscible
> in oil (nonpolar solvents).
>
> Water based dyes work great when dissolved in alcohols. If your alcohol is
> fairly anhydrous (dry) it will not raise the grain. Alcohol does not have
> the same effect on wood grain as water. The only problem I can see with
> using alcohol is that it evaporates more rapidly. You have to wipe off the
> excess more quickly than with water. This is not usually a problem IMHO.
>
> >I've never tried mixing the WB dyes with alcohol.
>
> You GOTTA try it. :)
>
> "George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > BruceR wrote:
> > >
> > > There are two basic types of dyes that can be used, water based and
> > > everything else 8^) to use the WB dyes, you need to wet down the wood
> > > after sanding, let dry (day or two), then sand lightly again. This will
> > > eliminate most of the grain raising caused by applying the water based
> > > dye. To avoid the grain raising caused by the water you can mix the
> > > water based dyes (TransFast) with Glycol and apply or use the non-WB
> > > dyes (TransTint or other oil or alcohol based). I've never tried mixing
> > > the WB dyes with alcohol.
> > >
> > > -Bruce
> > >
> > > [email protected] wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> > > -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
> >
> > I'm with you, a water based stain is a dye dissolved in
> > water. If you dissolve it in alcohol, even if diluted, you
> > ought to call it an alcohol stain.
From Homestead webpage for Transtint Dye
"Mix with tap or distilled water for an economical, non-flammable stain.OR
mix with alcohol for a fast-drying, non-grain raising stain. No waiting or
straining is necessary because the dye is pre-dissolved.
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/TransTint.htm
By specifically calling it a Water soluble dye they are telling you that it
will dissolve in water. This does not mean in will dissolve in alcohol, but
it also doesn't mean it won't. I have only used the Transtint Waterbased
dye and it dissolves in alcohol completely miscible.
You should try Methanol first (MORE POLAR) and if its soluble in Methanol
try Ethanol (Slightly less polar and higher boiling point thus easier to
work with).
"BruceR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> stoutman wrote:
> >>What is the difference then between the TransFast WB dyes
> >>and the TransFast alcohol dyes at homestead fininshing?
> >
> >
> > The transfast dyes are marketed as WATER SOLUBLE dyes NOT WATER BASED
DYES
> > on their web page. Take a small amount and see if it will dissolve in
> > alcohol, if it does your in luck.
>
> Ahhh, the "fine print"!
> >
> > Water based dyes WILL dissolve in other POLAR solvents. The TRANS TINT
> > water based dyes sold by homestead even say on their web page that you
CAN
> > use alcohol for a nongrain raising stain.
> I couldn't find this. I'm guessing that they ment one should use the
> alcohol soluble dyes (with alcohol of course) instead of the water
> soluble dyes.
>
> Ok, I remember reading details somewhere and I believe in Flexner's book
> that you can avoid using water (and raising the grain) if you substitute
> (I hope I get this right) Glycol Ether for the water.
> Either way I'll try mixing up some of the WS dye with isopropyl alcohol
> to see what it does. If it works, coolio! otherwise I'll need to weigh
> in the costs of true alcohol soluble dyes + solvent versus the WS dyes +
> glycol ehter if I have a dye project where resanding would be too much
work.
>
> -Bruce
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
(I think they are even soluble in Diethyl Ether, but it evaporates to
quickly).
I brain farted. They are not soluble in diethyl ether.
sorry.
"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:yRTTb.170383$sv6.914483@attbi_s52...
> Water based simply means it dissolves in WATER miscible solvents (POLAR
> SOLVENTS). This is different from oil based dyes that dissolve in OIL
> miscible solvents (NONPOLAR SOLVENTS, i.e. mineral spirits).
>
> Water based stains do not have to be dissolved in water. They are freely
> miscible in other POLAR solvents. This includes methanol, ethanol,
> isopropyl alcohol and acetone. (I think they are even soluble in Diethyl
> Ether, but it evaporates to quickly). Water based stains are NOT miscible
> in oil (nonpolar solvents).
>
> Water based dyes work great when dissolved in alcohols. If your alcohol
is
> fairly anhydrous (dry) it will not raise the grain. Alcohol does not have
> the same effect on wood grain as water. The only problem I can see with
> using alcohol is that it evaporates more rapidly. You have to wipe off
the
> excess more quickly than with water. This is not usually a problem IMHO.
>
> >I've never tried mixing the WB dyes with alcohol.
>
> You GOTTA try it. :)
>
>
> "George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > BruceR wrote:
> > >
> > > There are two basic types of dyes that can be used, water based and
> > > everything else 8^) to use the WB dyes, you need to wet down the wood
> > > after sanding, let dry (day or two), then sand lightly again. This
will
> > > eliminate most of the grain raising caused by applying the water based
> > > dye. To avoid the grain raising caused by the water you can mix the
> > > water based dyes (TransFast) with Glycol and apply or use the non-WB
> > > dyes (TransTint or other oil or alcohol based). I've never tried
mixing
> > > the WB dyes with alcohol.
> > >
> > > -Bruce
> > >
> > > [email protected] wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> > > -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
> >
> > I'm with you, a water based stain is a dye dissolved in
> > water. If you dissolve it in alcohol, even if diluted, you
> > ought to call it an alcohol stain.
>
>
If your not happy with the isopropyl alcohol. Another thing you can try is
to wet your cherry forst with water and let it dry. Sand and wet again.
Let dry and sand again. The cherry should resist grain raising after the
repetitive wetting, drying and sanding.
"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am trying to get a new piece to match an existing "cherry" dresser. The
> dresser appears to have colored lacquer on it, so my attempts at matching
> with stain (even gel stain) aren't working. Mine looks too much like
wood!
>
> So, I bought some water soluble dye. The first application raised the
> grain, and my sanding removed most of the dyed wood. I guess I expected
it
> to penetrate better. So I put on a second application, and that has
raised
> grain also.
>
> Obviously I am doing something wrong. How do you deal with raised grain?
>
>
On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 02:52:42 GMT, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I am trying to get a new piece to match an existing "cherry" dresser. The
>dresser appears to have colored lacquer on it, so my attempts at matching
>with stain (even gel stain) aren't working. Mine looks too much like wood!
>
>So, I bought some water soluble dye. The first application raised the
>grain, and my sanding removed most of the dyed wood. I guess I expected it
>to penetrate better. So I put on a second application, and that has raised
>grain also.
>
>Obviously I am doing something wrong. How do you deal with raised grain?
>
Try TransTint Dyes from Jeff Jewitt's site.
I believe that it is www.homesteadfinishing.com
There is also a lot of good finishing advice available over there and
Jeff will answer some of the questions himself.
I've always had good results.
Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
Raising the fuzz is a better name for what happens.
If you are going to use a water based dye you must first pre dampen the wood
then let it dry. By wetting the grain is raised. You do NOT sand the wood
till it has dried. When the wood has dried it shrinks back and leaves
severed wood strands standing proud of the surface. This is what you want to
remove.
You remove it by LIGHTLY sanding or scraping the fuzz off. Not by heavily
sanding the piece again. If you do heavily sand you are creating a self
propagating problem by severing more strands of wood.
Once you have done that correctly the application of the dye should go just
fine.
On a further note it has been my experience that pre dampening is not
necessary for undyed water based finishes. Just apply the first coat, let it
dry, then scuff sand off any fuzz that remains standing.
--
Mike G.
[email protected]
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am trying to get a new piece to match an existing "cherry" dresser. The
> dresser appears to have colored lacquer on it, so my attempts at matching
> with stain (even gel stain) aren't working. Mine looks too much like
wood!
>
> So, I bought some water soluble dye. The first application raised the
> grain, and my sanding removed most of the dyed wood. I guess I expected
it
> to penetrate better. So I put on a second application, and that has
raised
> grain also.
>
> Obviously I am doing something wrong. How do you deal with raised grain?
>
>
Local drug stores carry both 70% and 91% isopropyl. TransTint dyes
from Jeff Jewitt site Tom provided can be mixed in many solutions
including waterbased polyurethane and shellac to make toners. I'm
using them in PSL now for some wall units our daughter wants. Several
coats of toner gets the final color wanted with obscuring the grain.
Zinssers Seal Coat is wax free 2# cut shellac that probably would
accept TransTint dyes.
On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 03:14:04 GMT, "stoutman" <.@.> wrote:
>If your isopropyl alcohol has been laying around a while it might have a
>higher concentration of H2O dissolved. Get a fresh bottle of isopropyl
>alcohol.
Wood magazine, March 04, issue 154, page 66 has an article on wood toning
and using various dyes.
"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am trying to get a new piece to match an existing "cherry" dresser. The
> dresser appears to have colored lacquer on it, so my attempts at matching
> with stain (even gel stain) aren't working. Mine looks too much like
wood!
>
> So, I bought some water soluble dye. The first application raised the
> grain, and my sanding removed most of the dyed wood. I guess I expected
it
> to penetrate better. So I put on a second application, and that has
raised
> grain also.
>
> Obviously I am doing something wrong. How do you deal with raised grain?
>
>
>What is the difference then between the TransFast WB dyes
> and the TransFast alcohol dyes at homestead fininshing?
The transfast dyes are marketed as WATER SOLUBLE dyes NOT WATER BASED DYES
on their web page. Take a small amount and see if it will dissolve in
alcohol, if it does your in luck.
Water based dyes WILL dissolve in other POLAR solvents. The TRANS TINT
water based dyes sold by homestead even say on their web page that you CAN
use alcohol for a nongrain raising stain.
"BruceR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> stoutman wrote:
> > Water based simply means it dissolves in WATER miscible solvents (POLAR
> > SOLVENTS). This is different from oil based dyes that dissolve in OIL
> > miscible solvents (NONPOLAR SOLVENTS, i.e. mineral spirits).
> >
>
>
> Stoutman,
> interesting! What is the difference then between the TransFast WB dyes
> and the TransFast alcohol dyes at homestead fininshing? I use the WB
> dyes since I can spray them and cleanup is easy. The AB dyes cost a lot
> more plus the added cost of the solvent. If what you imply works, I can
> avoid the grain raising issues for only the added cost of alcohol. I'd
> reckon I could still lighten the tone after application and drying with
> a damp rag (water or alcohol)
>
> -Bruce
>
> >
> >
> >>I've never tried mixing the WB dyes with alcohol.
> >
> >
> > You GOTTA try it. :)
> >
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
Water based simply means it dissolves in WATER miscible solvents (POLAR
SOLVENTS). This is different from oil based dyes that dissolve in OIL
miscible solvents (NONPOLAR SOLVENTS, i.e. mineral spirits).
Water based stains do not have to be dissolved in water. They are freely
miscible in other POLAR solvents. This includes methanol, ethanol,
isopropyl alcohol and acetone. (I think they are even soluble in Diethyl
Ether, but it evaporates to quickly). Water based stains are NOT miscible
in oil (nonpolar solvents).
Water based dyes work great when dissolved in alcohols. If your alcohol is
fairly anhydrous (dry) it will not raise the grain. Alcohol does not have
the same effect on wood grain as water. The only problem I can see with
using alcohol is that it evaporates more rapidly. You have to wipe off the
excess more quickly than with water. This is not usually a problem IMHO.
>I've never tried mixing the WB dyes with alcohol.
You GOTTA try it. :)
"George E. Cawthon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> BruceR wrote:
> >
> > There are two basic types of dyes that can be used, water based and
> > everything else 8^) to use the WB dyes, you need to wet down the wood
> > after sanding, let dry (day or two), then sand lightly again. This will
> > eliminate most of the grain raising caused by applying the water based
> > dye. To avoid the grain raising caused by the water you can mix the
> > water based dyes (TransFast) with Glycol and apply or use the non-WB
> > dyes (TransTint or other oil or alcohol based). I've never tried mixing
> > the WB dyes with alcohol.
> >
> > -Bruce
> >
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >
> > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> > -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
>
> I'm with you, a water based stain is a dye dissolved in
> water. If you dissolve it in alcohol, even if diluted, you
> ought to call it an alcohol stain.