Bookshelves

[email protected] wrote:
> I'm building some bookshelves (I do this every few years, and it's time
> again).
>
> Plywood is wonderful, but not for a shelf.
>
> Library building standards allow for 1" nominal (3/4" actual) solid
> wood shelves
> no more than 36" between supports. Some headscratching and
> calculations show
> that plywood (because half the plies are in the weak direction) only
> has 1/3 to 1/2 the
> stiffness of solid wood (you gotta measure all the plies thicknesses,
> use cube-law
> formulae and sum it all up, and there's more than one ply arrangement
> in
> the plywoods I found available). That means plywood shelves (3/4"
> actual
> thickness) can only go 26" between centers, for similarly acceptible
> 'sag'.
>
> But, what about the various fiberboard products? I've used oak,
> hardboard (Masonite),
> and flakeboard for shelves, and (except for bathroom use, where
> moisture is
> a strong variable) they've worked out OK. How does the long-term
> strength of
> those products compare with plywood and with solid woods? My trusty
> USDA
> Wood Handbook doesn't cover the subject well enough. Does anyone have
> a good reference?

There is a site that helps you figure this, but, in general, the
fibeboard products are totally worthless for bookshelf use without some
form of extra bracing. Someone should come up with it. AOL has managed
to jumble my favorites list again, so I don't know what's where, and
about 25% is gone, as is usual with this deal. Add to that between 5%
and 10% are new "favorites" that I am dead sure I never saw before. So
I can't give you the site...and have to do background research on two
magazine articles and one book again, for heaven's sake. Ah well. Maybe
this time I can make the transition to Earthlink.

Incidentally, I have always used plywood up to 36" wide in bookshelves,
and have never had a sagging problem.

[email protected] wrote:
> Google for Sagulator for the table of good stuff. I was never more
> pleased than to DUMP AOL! Got an ISP that has both white list for
> good guys and black list for bad guys and no SPAM to speak of. Once a
> month at worst.
>

Yes. That's it. As for AOL, I've tried at least six different ISPs, all
of which are just as bad, or worse, than AOL, but in the past few
months, AOL has been living up to its nickname, AOHell. They're doing
their level best to drive off long time (almost from the beginning)
customers while they're selling advertising based on the number of
people using their free stuff (now free).

I recently loaded and tried using PeoplePC, but that's worse, the
dreaded red X for photos about 99.7% of the time, The cure? They gave
me one. It dind't make any change at all. Next cure? Call us. Of
course, you need to be on-line when you call. Oops. One phone line in
this office. No cell phone. I am not about to run a second phone line,
or go through a shitload of general movement with long, long phone
cords just to start up a service that isn't capable of providing decent
software at the outset.

So, now, I await a CD from Earthlink. I tried them before and my wife
didn't like the interface. This time, she may not have a choice.

Phisherman wrote:
> I made bookshelves from 3/4" ply and used a 1.5" wood lip on front and
> back. They are 36", filled with books, and do not sag.

I've done that as well. I only made my shelves 32" long to maximize use
from the sheet of plywood.I agree with you, it works great.

Locutus wrote:
> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > So, now, I await a CD from Earthlink. I tried them before and my wife
> > didn't like the interface. This time, she may not have a choice.
> >
>
> Interface of what?
>
> An ISP is meant to connect you to the internet. The interface is that of
> the program you are using to manipulate the internet (IE/FireFox/Outlook Exp
> etc)
>
> If you expect your ISP to do more than that, then you will be disappointed
> no matter who you go with.

Well, actually, I expect the ISP to connect me to the internet, with or
without OE or Firefox, and then provide some framework for getting
around. If it doesn't do that, then it is sort of like teats on a
broom, an oddity that can be looked at but not used. I expect the ISP
to hook into OE or Firefox in a manner that allows me to use those
programs without interference. Evidently many are not able to come up
with that. For news and weather I can always scoot over to MSN or AOL
(now that it's free), so, really, all I want is a framework with a few
mailboxes available. If the framework is screwed up, as it appears to
be in PeoplePC, then I move elsewhere. Eventually, I'll find a
combination of sanity and reasonable price.

As an incidental point, I tried all the supposedly low priced ISPs over
the years, only to find that actual cost, once hooked up with mailboxes
and similar items, ran just a few bucks behind full featured programs,
with more hook up problems and more problems staying online (having
more of either of those than AOL does is a stunning achievement).

"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> So, now, I await a CD from Earthlink. I tried them before and my wife
> didn't like the interface. This time, she may not have a choice.
>

Interface of what?

An ISP is meant to connect you to the internet. The interface is that of
the program you are using to manipulate the internet (IE/FireFox/Outlook Exp
etc)

If you expect your ISP to do more than that, then you will be disappointed
no matter who you go with.

"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Locutus wrote:
>> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> >
>> > So, now, I await a CD from Earthlink. I tried them before and my wife
>> > didn't like the interface. This time, she may not have a choice.
>> >
>>
>> Interface of what?
>>
>> An ISP is meant to connect you to the internet. The interface is that of
>> the program you are using to manipulate the internet (IE/FireFox/Outlook
>> Exp
>> etc)
>>
>> If you expect your ISP to do more than that, then you will be
>> disappointed
>> no matter who you go with.
>
> Well, actually, I expect the ISP to connect me to the internet, with or
> without OE or Firefox, and then provide some framework for getting
> around.

I don't understand what you mean by "framework for getting around".

An ISP provides service to the internet. Just like your phone company
provides phone service. You can plug your own answering machine, telephone,
fax or whatever into that phoneline. You COULD also get these services from
your phone company, and many years ago people did. But they are two seperate
services. Think of ISP's the same way.

Use your ISP for a connection to the internet. Nothing more, nothing less.
As long as the connection is reliable, then as far as I am concerned the ISP
is fufilling their end of the deal.

Use your own email server or a third party email server (free or pay), don't
rely on your ISP. This way if you want to change ISPs you don't lose your
email address.

On 27 Aug 2006 01:34:08 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>I'm building some bookshelves (I do this every few years, and it's time
>again).
>
>Plywood is wonderful, but not for a shelf.
>
>Library building standards allow for 1" nominal (3/4" actual) solid
>wood shelves
>no more than 36" between supports. Some headscratching and
>calculations show
>that plywood (because half the plies are in the weak direction) only
>has 1/3 to 1/2 the
>stiffness of solid wood (you gotta measure all the plies thicknesses,
>use cube-law
>formulae and sum it all up, and there's more than one ply arrangement
>in
>the plywoods I found available). That means plywood shelves (3/4"
>actual
>thickness) can only go 26" between centers, for similarly acceptible
>'sag'.
>
>But, what about the various fiberboard products? I've used oak,
>hardboard (Masonite),
>and flakeboard for shelves, and (except for bathroom use, where
>moisture is
>a strong variable) they've worked out OK. How does the long-term
>strength of
>those products compare with plywood and with solid woods? My trusty
>USDA
>Wood Handbook doesn't cover the subject well enough. Does anyone have
>a good reference?


I made bookshelves from 3/4" ply and used a 1.5" wood lip on front and
back. They are 36", filled with books, and do not sag.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message

> Well, actually, I expect the ISP to connect me to the internet, with or
> without OE or Firefox, and then provide some framework for getting
> around. If it doesn't do that, then it is sort of like teats on a
> broom, an oddity that can be looked at but not used. I expect the ISP
> to hook into OE or Firefox in a manner that allows me to use those
> programs without interference. Evidently many are not able to come up
> with that. For news and weather I can always scoot over to MSN or AOL
> (now that it's free), so, really, all I want is a framework with a few
> mailboxes available. If the framework is screwed up, as it appears to
> be in PeoplePC, then I move elsewhere. Eventually, I'll find a
> combination of sanity and reasonable price.


Sounds like all that AOL down through the years has got you screwed up in
your concept of the "Internet" ... but nothing surprising in that.

Where you are likely getting the "framework" idea from is AOL's interface
software, required by them to access their network in any meaningful manner,
and that must be loaded on your computer, to take advantage of their own
network's services/features, message boards, etc.

AOL initially started out as a network of their own computers that folks
logged onto to participate in computer activities with other folks, and this
network had nothing to do whatsoever with "The Internet".

Later on in AOL's history they provided you with access to the "Internet",
but only through their existing network, and only with their software loaded
on your computer.

That may have changed somewhat now, but the concept in folk's minds, and the
perceived need for some type of interface/framework, still lingers to a
great degree.

The latter is not necessary with an "ISP".

Enter the "Internet" and the "Internet Service Provider".

In today's "Internet", simply think of an ISP as simply supplying you with a
connection to the actual Internet, much as the electric company supplies you
with electricity though a socket in the wall of your house, _into which you
can plug an appliance of your choice_.

(Actually, there is indeed a virtual "socket" in your computer software into
which you can plug a software appliance of your choice (usually "client"
software, like OE/Internet Explorer/Firefox, etc.) You activate this
"socket", and thus "connect to the Internet" by dialup through your phone
line to your ISP, by a cable connection, by other twisted pair connections
(DSL, ISDN, etc.), or by wireless means.)

While your ISP may have their own web servers, e-mail servers, Usenet
servers, etc. that provide you with these Internet "services", once
connected you can actually use your own "appliances" (OE/Internet
Explorer/Firefox, etc) to access these services elsewhere.

IOW, you don't have to use your ISP's servers or software and can go
anywhere on the "Internet", with your own appliances, to access these
services through a third party.

IOW, you have the ability to provide a "framework" of your own choosing with
an ISP.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/21/06

Google for Sagulator for the table of good stuff. I was never more
pleased than to DUMP AOL! Got an ISP that has both white list for
good guys and black list for bad guys and no SPAM to speak of. Once a
month at worst.

On 27 Aug 2006 02:34:38 -0700, "Charlie Self" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>[email protected] wrote:
>> I'm building some bookshelves (I do this every few years, and it's time
>> again).
>>
>> Plywood is wonderful, but not for a shelf.
>>
>> Library building standards allow for 1" nominal (3/4" actual) solid
>> wood shelves
>> no more than 36" between supports. Some headscratching and
>> calculations show
>> that plywood (because half the plies are in the weak direction) only
>> has 1/3 to 1/2 the
>> stiffness of solid wood (you gotta measure all the plies thicknesses,
>> use cube-law
>> formulae and sum it all up, and there's more than one ply arrangement
>> in
>> the plywoods I found available). That means plywood shelves (3/4"
>> actual
>> thickness) can only go 26" between centers, for similarly acceptible
>> 'sag'.
>>
>> But, what about the various fiberboard products? I've used oak,
>> hardboard (Masonite),
>> and flakeboard for shelves, and (except for bathroom use, where
>> moisture is
>> a strong variable) they've worked out OK. How does the long-term
>> strength of
>> those products compare with plywood and with solid woods? My trusty
>> USDA
>> Wood Handbook doesn't cover the subject well enough. Does anyone have
>> a good reference?
>
>There is a site that helps you figure this, but, in general, the
>fibeboard products are totally worthless for bookshelf use without some
>form of extra bracing. Someone should come up with it. AOL has managed
>to jumble my favorites list again, so I don't know what's where, and
>about 25% is gone, as is usual with this deal. Add to that between 5%
>and 10% are new "favorites" that I am dead sure I never saw before. So
>I can't give you the site...and have to do background research on two
>magazine articles and one book again, for heaven's sake. Ah well. Maybe
>this time I can make the transition to Earthlink.
>
>Incidentally, I have always used plywood up to 36" wide in bookshelves,
>and have never had a sagging problem.