Hi All,
I was wondering what other woodworkers out there did with regard to
purchasing and dimensioning lumber. A lot of what I build from
plans/magazines etc. requires a 3/4" thickness of wood. I have yet to
pick up a 4/4 lumber that I have managed to get 3/4 thickness from.
My understanding is that 4/4 lumber is really 13/16. 3/4 lumber is
12/16 so I only have 1/16" of an inch to play with and by the time I'm
done joining, planing etc. I can't get close. A lot of the 4/4 stock
needs quite a bit of work to get it properly true and square even
though it has already been planed on both sides.
My rule of thumb is to buy 5/4 (or 8/4 and then resaw) from the lumber
yard if I need to get a final dimension of 3/4. I buy 4/4 for anything
that requires about 5/8 and thinner as a final dimension. Having to
buy 5/4 limits the types of wood I can buy and buying 8/4 can get
expensive.
Does anyone have any words of wisdom or advice - in case I'm missing
something? Is it possible to purchase wood that hasn't been planed on
both sides so I can actually buy it thicker and then join/plane it
myself?
While I'm at it, does anyone have any recommendations as to suppliers
around the SF Bay and maybe also online? I usually frequent
Handloggers but am familar with McBeath (sp?) and a place in Alameda -
White Bros maybe?
Thanks in advance
Mike
On 9 May 2004 14:38:18 -0700, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>I was wondering what other woodworkers out there did with regard to
>purchasing and dimensioning lumber. A lot of what I build from
>plans/magazines etc. requires a 3/4" thickness of wood. I have yet to
>pick up a 4/4 lumber that I have managed to get 3/4 thickness from.
>
>My understanding is that 4/4 lumber is really 13/16. 3/4 lumber is
>12/16 so I only have 1/16" of an inch to play with and by the time I'm
>done joining, planing etc. I can't get close. A lot of the 4/4 stock
>needs quite a bit of work to get it properly true and square even
>though it has already been planed on both sides.
>
>My rule of thumb is to buy 5/4 (or 8/4 and then resaw) from the lumber
>yard if I need to get a final dimension of 3/4. I buy 4/4 for anything
>that requires about 5/8 and thinner as a final dimension. Having to
>buy 5/4 limits the types of wood I can buy and buying 8/4 can get
>expensive.
>
>Does anyone have any words of wisdom or advice - in case I'm missing
>something? Is it possible to purchase wood that hasn't been planed on
>both sides so I can actually buy it thicker and then join/plane it
>myself?
>
When I can't get 4/4 rough (instead of S2S), I dimension down to 11/16
and adjust my plans accordingly. Seems to work reasonably well and doesn't
noticeably affect the strength of the resulting project. Even going down
to 11/16, some S2S stock won't joint flat -- that just becomes a future
1/2" stock or jig material.
On 9 May 2004 14:38:18 -0700, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>
>Does anyone have any words of wisdom or advice?
>
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>Mike
I buy 4/4 hardwood lumber in the rough state. Most often, I cut to
rough length and then surface and plane to finished thickness. Many
times I could get a flat board before I get to that 3/4. Some longer
pieces may require starting even thicker, depending on how much bow,
crook or cup there may be. And twist? Forget it. I don't buy a
twisted board with being sure I can get the part out of it I want.
That particular defect seems more wastefull than the others.
Like yourself, I found long ago that the process of making the board
flat didn't lend itself to starting with already surfaced lumber,
particularly if I wanted to end up near the already surface size.
The way I see it is this: either take it or leave it there, or buy kiln-dried
rough-sawn lumber and mill it yourself. That is available to me 5 days a week and
close by also. No amount of bitching about this situation is going to change the
world. Get a life!
Hoyt W.
Bill Rogers wrote:
> On 9 May 2004 14:38:18 -0700, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
> >My understanding is that 4/4 lumber is really 13/16. 3/4 lumber is
> >12/16 so I only have 1/16" of an inch to play with and by the time I'm
> >done joining, planing etc. I can't get close. A lot of the 4/4 stock
> >needs quite a bit of work to get it properly true and square even
> >though it has already been planed on both sides.
>
> Wlecome to the lumber rip-off business. If anyone complains about
> what you do, refer them to this thievery, and ask them if they'd
> rather you dealt with them this way instead.
>
> 4/4 lumber is reduced to 3/4" actual. There was no reason that wood
> couldn't have been oversize before planing and been planed to 1".
> However, 3/4" is, well, 3/4 of the original. a reduction of 25%.
> Think of it as 25% you're not paying for.
>
> OK, I'm not a mill worker, so I can't speak from experience, but does
> the wood *have to* lose 1/8" both sides for a smooth surface after
> resawing?
>
> Anyhow, continuing...
>
> So you were talked into accepting 3/4" stock as being called a 1" size
> lumber. Now, hey decided to reduce it by 1/16". You'd hardly notice
> that, right? However, that's a loss of *planed* lumber to the amount
> of 1/16 : 3/4, or another reduction of 17%. Think of how you'd feel
> if your wages dropped by that amount, or if your mortgage payment
> increased by the same.
>
> Now, while you were getting less ofr your money, you were also being
> charged more money as prices skyrocketed. not just little jumps, but
> whacking great big ones.
>
> As I said, it's thievery. A gain (for them) of 1.16" over billions of
> board feet adds up to something i'd like ot have in my back pocket.
>
> You pay for these increased costs out of your wages. Think of it as a
> loss of your wages, and take up knitting.
>
> Bill.
You need to find another source for your lumber. At least some of the
hardwood lumber dealers will sell you rough stock at a quoted, fair price
that is actually 4/4 or a little thicker. If you want it straight line
sawed and planed they will charge you about $.10 to $.25/board foot for this
service. I frequently purchase oak lumber from Paxton Lumber Company that
has been planed to any thickness less than 4/4 that I specify. I frequently
request surface planeing to a thickness of 15/16" hit or miss. Most of the
lumber is delivered ready to use without any futher reduction required in
thickness. If the initial planeing missed a few selected spots on the stock
I can easily clean it up when I go to use it and it will usually surface
plane to about 7/8" thickness. I have found that I like to purchase stock
that has had the surface at least partically planned because it is easier to
handle, stackes more uniformily, and I will not have to wait as long for
the stock to stabalize as it is cut when I am using it since its initial
thickness is close to what I frequently use in my project- I mill the
remaining 1/16-1/8" from it for finished stock at the time I actually use
it.
15/16" thick pieces can be edge glued together into much wider pieces and
still have enough thickness to surface plane to 3/4" thick flat pannels
without much trouble.
"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi All,
>
> I was wondering what other woodworkers out there did with regard to
> purchasing and dimensioning lumber. A lot of what I build from
> plans/magazines etc. requires a 3/4" thickness of wood. I have yet to
> pick up a 4/4 lumber that I have managed to get 3/4 thickness from.
>
> My understanding is that 4/4 lumber is really 13/16. 3/4 lumber is
> 12/16 so I only have 1/16" of an inch to play with and by the time I'm
> done joining, planing etc. I can't get close. A lot of the 4/4 stock
> needs quite a bit of work to get it properly true and square even
> though it has already been planed on both sides.
>
> My rule of thumb is to buy 5/4 (or 8/4 and then resaw) from the lumber
> yard if I need to get a final dimension of 3/4. I buy 4/4 for anything
> that requires about 5/8 and thinner as a final dimension. Having to
> buy 5/4 limits the types of wood I can buy and buying 8/4 can get
> expensive.
>
> Does anyone have any words of wisdom or advice - in case I'm missing
> something? Is it possible to purchase wood that hasn't been planed on
> both sides so I can actually buy it thicker and then join/plane it
> myself?
>
> While I'm at it, does anyone have any recommendations as to suppliers
> around the SF Bay and maybe also online? I usually frequent
> Handloggers but am familar with McBeath (sp?) and a place in Alameda -
> White Bros maybe?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Mike
On Sun, 09 May 2004 18:51:42 -0400, Bill Rogers <[email protected]>
wrote:
>As I said, it's thievery. A gain (for them) of 1.16" over billions of
>board feet adds up to something i'd like ot have in my back pocket.
Are you going to glue it together out of the dealer's cyclone? <G>
I buy rough lumber, it really is 4/4, sometimes a fraction more.
Those who ask for surfacing lose the rest in chips. It actually
arrives at my dealer as a full 1", the mill is not screwing them.
Maybe you need a new dealer?
Barry
Mike:
Try Macbeath's again. Their Berkely store sells S2S lumber,
but their SF location sells it in the rough. Also do
a search in this group for Bay area lumber (use terms
like San Francisco, Macbeath, to hit the references).
If you need instructions on woodworking. There is no
better place then:
www.woodworkeracademy.com
Good luck!
MJ Wallace
Thanks for the response. I should have specified that the 4/4 lumber I
have been buying is S4S and therefore 13/16. Looks like I need to find
a supplier of rough lumber.
B a r r y <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 9 May 2004 14:38:18 -0700, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
>
>
> >My understanding is that 4/4 lumber is really 13/16.
>
> It's not. s4s is, as the extra lumber gets removed during surfacing.
>
> Buy it rough and you'll get the full thickness. You'll also get to
> choose which side to remove the most wood from, and can cut it to
> rough length before surfacing.
>
> >My rule of thumb is to buy 5/4 (or 8/4 and then resaw) from the lumber
> >yard if I need to get a final dimension of 3/4.
>
> Nothing wrong with resawing from 8/4, 12/4 or thicker planks, but I
> don't have a problem getting a genuine 3/4 from the rough 4/4 stock I
> buy.
>
> >Does anyone have any words of wisdom or advice - in case I'm missing
> >something? Is it possible to purchase wood that hasn't been planed on
> >both sides so I can actually buy it thicker and then join/plane it
> >myself?
>
> Ask for it "rough".
>
> Barry
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>I was wondering what other woodworkers out there did with regard to
>purchasing and dimensioning lumber. A lot of what I build from
>plans/magazines etc. requires a 3/4" thickness of wood. I have yet to
>pick up a 4/4 lumber that I have managed to get 3/4 thickness from.
Yeah, that happens a lot if you buy your wood already planed. :-)
>
[snip]
>Does anyone have any words of wisdom or advice - in case I'm missing
>something? Is it possible to purchase wood that hasn't been planed on
>both sides so I can actually buy it thicker and then join/plane it
>myself?
Yes, it is. Order it "rough".
You still want to get the straightest, flattest stock you can find, to
minimize losses when you mill it. It's also best to let the wood rest in your
shop for a week or two *before* milling, so it adjusts to the humidity level
in your shop. Then joint it, and plane to 1/16" to 1/8" over finished
thickness and let it rest another week. Check to make sure it's still flat,
joint it again if necessary, and plane to finished thickness.
>
>While I'm at it, does anyone have any recommendations as to suppliers
>around the SF Bay and maybe also online? I usually frequent
>Handloggers but am familar with McBeath (sp?) and a place in Alameda -
>White Bros maybe?
Can't help ya there, sorry -- I live in Indianapolis. :-)
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>On 9 May 2004 14:38:18 -0700, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
>>My understanding is that 4/4 lumber is really 13/16. 3/4 lumber is
>>12/16 so I only have 1/16" of an inch to play with and by the time I'm
>>done joining, planing etc. I can't get close. A lot of the 4/4 stock
>>needs quite a bit of work to get it properly true and square even
>>though it has already been planed on both sides.
>
>Wlecome to the lumber rip-off business. If anyone complains about
>what you do, refer them to this thievery, and ask them if they'd
>rather you dealt with them this way instead.
Oh, puh-leeeze.
>
>4/4 lumber is reduced to 3/4" actual. There was no reason that wood
>couldn't have been oversize before planing and been planed to 1".
I guess you don't really understand how the lumber industry works. It's cut
rough at 4/4, and if you buy it rough, you get all four quarters. As a matter
of fact, most of the rough 4/4 lumber that I see actually measures over that
by one or two sixteenths.
>However, 3/4" is, well, 3/4 of the original. a reduction of 25%.
>Think of it as 25% you're not paying for.
No, you're paying for the service of planing it smooth.
>
>OK, I'm not a mill worker, so I can't speak from experience, but does
>the wood *have to* lose 1/8" both sides for a smooth surface after
>resawing?
Maybe, depending on the type of blade that was used at the mill. Some
rough-cut lumber is *really* rough. And it's not 1/8" per side anyway. To get
from 1" to 13/16" means losing 3/32" each side.
>Anyhow, continuing...
>
>So you were talked into accepting 3/4" stock as being called a 1" size
>lumber.
No. Rough 4/4 stock is a full inch thick. You can't magically plane it smooth
without making it thinner.
>Now, hey decided to reduce it by 1/16".
Read the OP again. He said his *plans* call for 3/4, and made it quite clear
that the lumber yard was supplying 13/16" -- which is exactly what you're
supposed to get if you order 4/4 lumber S4S or S2S.
>You'd hardly notice
>that, right? However, that's a loss of *planed* lumber to the amount
>of 1/16 : 3/4, or another reduction of 17%. Think of how you'd feel
>if your wages dropped by that amount, or if your mortgage payment
>increased by the same.
>
>Now, while you were getting less ofr your money, you were also being
>charged more money as prices skyrocketed. not just little jumps, but
>whacking great big ones.
>
>As I said, it's thievery. A gain (for them) of 1.16" over billions of
>board feet adds up to something i'd like ot have in my back pocket.
Absolute nonsense. If you want your lumber to be 1" thick after it's planed,
you have to buy it thicker than 1" in the rough, and you're going to pay for
that thickness one way or another. Does it really matter if the shavings
removed by the planer end up in your dust collector, or the one at the lumber
mill?
>You pay for these increased costs out of your wages. Think of it as a
>loss of your wages, and take up knitting.
ROTFL
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.
>You need to venture out to find a new supplier. Better ones will have 4/4
> boards that are an honest 1" thick. You can take it "as is" or some will
do
> the milling for you. Two suppliers here in CT will joint and plane to the
> thickness you want at no additional charge.
Ed:
1.) Connecticut Hardwood Group
and
2.) ?????
Who is number 2? Harris?
Rich
"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I was wondering what other woodworkers out there did with regard to
> purchasing and dimensioning lumber. A lot of what I build from
> plans/magazines etc. requires a 3/4" thickness of wood. I have yet to
> pick up a 4/4 lumber that I have managed to get 3/4 thickness from.
>
> My understanding is that 4/4 lumber is really 13/16. 3/4 lumber is
> 12/16 so I only have 1/16" of an inch to play with and by the time I'm
> done joining, planing etc. I can't get close. A lot of the 4/4 stock
> needs quite a bit of work to get it properly true and square even
> though it has already been planed on both sides.
Sounds like you buying the equivilant of pine boards at Lowes or Home Depot?
Alleged finished lumber? I say alleged, because while it has been planed
already, it is cupped, bowed, or otherwise mutilated so as not be workable
as is. By the time yo get it flat, it is less that 3/4.
You need to venture out to find a new supplier. Better ones will have 4/4
boards that are an honest 1" thick. You can take it "as is" or some will do
the milling for you. Two suppliers here in CT will joint and plane to the
thickness you want at no additional charge.
Ed
"RKON" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Ed:
> 1.) Connecticut Hardwood Group
> and
> 2.) ?????
>
> Who is number 2? Harris?
>
> Rich
Yes. I was there Saturday and got some beautiful 4/4 cypress. CHG is out
of 4/4 and did not know when it would be in. Same price for the 4/4 but CHG
has better prices for the 8/4 I got a couple of weeks ago.
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
[email protected] (Mike) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Hi All,
<snippage>
>
> While I'm at it, does anyone have any recommendations as to suppliers
> around the SF Bay and maybe also online? I usually frequent
> Handloggers but am familar with McBeath (sp?) and a place in Alameda -
> White Bros maybe?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Mike
www.pals4wood.com several Bay Area locations, including one in the Port of
Oakland area. 10 miles south of Handloggers in Richmond. They also have
Earthsource as a semi-integrated operation, selling certified woods from
the Americas and elsewhere.
They have a couple of different sets of racks in the Oakland store, with
some certified woods, and some non-certified woods. One of the folks
working there indicated that the S3S in the certified areas was 'milled
thicker, for the furniture makers', because the cabinet makers seemed to be
shopping primarily on price.
You can pick your own stock, which can be a blessing annd a curse. They do
a LOT of volume, and so the racks may be full, or sparse, depending on when
you get there. If the bins are empty, you can ask to have them give you
access to the stack, or wait until they can fill them up. They are really
very nice people, and their prices are quite competitive, even in the low
volumes I use. Excellent selection, too.
no affiliation, etc.
Happy sawdust!
Patriarch
On 9 May 2004 14:38:18 -0700, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
>My understanding is that 4/4 lumber is really 13/16. 3/4 lumber is
>12/16 so I only have 1/16" of an inch to play with and by the time I'm
>done joining, planing etc. I can't get close. A lot of the 4/4 stock
>needs quite a bit of work to get it properly true and square even
>though it has already been planed on both sides.
Wlecome to the lumber rip-off business. If anyone complains about
what you do, refer them to this thievery, and ask them if they'd
rather you dealt with them this way instead.
4/4 lumber is reduced to 3/4" actual. There was no reason that wood
couldn't have been oversize before planing and been planed to 1".
However, 3/4" is, well, 3/4 of the original. a reduction of 25%.
Think of it as 25% you're not paying for.
OK, I'm not a mill worker, so I can't speak from experience, but does
the wood *have to* lose 1/8" both sides for a smooth surface after
resawing?
Anyhow, continuing...
So you were talked into accepting 3/4" stock as being called a 1" size
lumber. Now, hey decided to reduce it by 1/16". You'd hardly notice
that, right? However, that's a loss of *planed* lumber to the amount
of 1/16 : 3/4, or another reduction of 17%. Think of how you'd feel
if your wages dropped by that amount, or if your mortgage payment
increased by the same.
Now, while you were getting less ofr your money, you were also being
charged more money as prices skyrocketed. not just little jumps, but
whacking great big ones.
As I said, it's thievery. A gain (for them) of 1.16" over billions of
board feet adds up to something i'd like ot have in my back pocket.
You pay for these increased costs out of your wages. Think of it as a
loss of your wages, and take up knitting.
Bill.
On 9 May 2004 14:38:18 -0700, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>I was wondering what other woodworkers out there did with regard to
>purchasing and dimensioning lumber.
To be more direct, for serious projects I buy rough sawn from the
local mill (there are three around and about) and plane it down
myself. The original is usually 1"+ and well seasoned, the
traditional way. If the project is rarely too large to handle [I'm
not a business, just a hobbyist], I let them do the bull-work and
finish it myself. For example, I had one asembled oak table top that
needed to be flattened. The one local supplier/builder pays more for
his saw blade than I did for my saw, and has a 3' wide sander/planer.
I let him handle it, taking just a few small passes, and he did it for
free.
Bill.
On 9 May 2004 14:38:18 -0700, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
>My understanding is that 4/4 lumber is really 13/16.
It's not. s4s is, as the extra lumber gets removed during surfacing.
Buy it rough and you'll get the full thickness. You'll also get to
choose which side to remove the most wood from, and can cut it to
rough length before surfacing.
>My rule of thumb is to buy 5/4 (or 8/4 and then resaw) from the lumber
>yard if I need to get a final dimension of 3/4.
Nothing wrong with resawing from 8/4, 12/4 or thicker planks, but I
don't have a problem getting a genuine 3/4 from the rough 4/4 stock I
buy.
>Does anyone have any words of wisdom or advice - in case I'm missing
>something? Is it possible to purchase wood that hasn't been planed on
>both sides so I can actually buy it thicker and then join/plane it
>myself?
Ask for it "rough".
Barry
On Sun, 09 May 2004 14:38:18 -0700, Mike wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any words of wisdom or advice - in case I'm missing
> something? Is it possible to purchase wood that hasn't been planed on
> both sides so I can actually buy it thicker and then join/plane it
> myself?
why yes it is, and for me it is the most preferable way of handing the
material. dimension by cutting to rough lengths and you'll easily get
7/8" out of 1 inch thick rough sawn lumber.
when the piece you need approaches 6 feet or more you may need to buy
5/4 just to get that 3/4 thickness, but most woodworking/cabinetry type
things only require short pieces. I have ripped 13/16 stock to narrower
pieces jointed the edges and reglued when I had to be frugal, for the
most part these could be belt sanded flat and subsequently machined with
little problem
it's also preferable to let things "nest" after milling, so if possible
leave a bit for further removal, let set overnight re-join/plane and
you'll have the most dimensionally stable stock possible. don't forget
to sticker,
--
Fortune's Real-Life Courtroom Quote #52:
Q: What is your name?
A: Ernestine McDowell.
Q: And what is your marital status?
A: Fair.
"Bill Rogers" wrote in message
> You pay for these increased costs out of your wages. Think of it as a
> loss of your wages, and take up knitting.
The more you know about the materials you use, the less likely your are to
get ripped off, and the less room for "thievery". The following is by no
means all there is to it, but it may take away some of the misconception of
"thievery" when it comes to lumber dimensions.
Hardwoods and softwoods are entirely different commodities and are sold in
different ways and "standards".
Hardwood is usually cut and dried rough, generally from 3/8" up to 4" thick,
in fairly standard lengths from 4 to 16 feet in one foot increments, and in
_random_ widths.
Hardwood is generally sold rough, or surfaced (S1S or S2S). If you buy
surfaced, you basically are paying for the milling. IOW, with hardwoods, you
either have to do milling yourself, or pay to have it done ... there is no
other choice. Generally, no "thievery" involved.
Some species of hardwoods aren't even cut to some thickness because they
would take too long to dry. For instance, you'll rarely see 12/4 white oak
these days, but you'll see a lot of red oak at that thickness.
Dimensioned softwoods, particularly construction lumber, are generally
surfaced when green, cut to specific lengths (2 foot increments) and
_specific widths, and then shrink to "standard" size during the drying
process.
Most softwoods are used in construction and these specific dimension
"standards" are particularly necessary to that industry. As an example, a 1"
softwood board is cut and surfaced green at 25/32", then dries to a
"standard" 3/4" in thickness, then sold in varying lengths of 2 foot
increments.
Where you will get screwed, particularly if you are a newbie, is in figuring
board feet at a hardwood lumber yard ... they always figure in their favor,
so it pays to double check their math and call them on it if necessary. But
that is generally the only "thievery" involved, IME.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/13/04
On 9 May 2004 14:38:18 -0700, [email protected] (Mike) wrote:
-snip-
> Is it possible to purchase wood that hasn't been planed on
>both sides so I can actually buy it thicker and then join/plane it
>myself?
>
It is certainly possible to buy 4/4 rough lumber. My last purchase was a little over a thousand board feet of Ash, Red Oak, and
White Oak from Roy Anderson Lumber in Tompkinsville, KY. It was all 4/4 Rough FAS and all the boards I've pulled so far measure a
little over 1" actual dimension. No problem at all preparing 3/4 or thicker stock.
I realize that KY is pretty far from the Bay Area and am not necessarily suggesting a purchase from them- although I've very pleased
and, even with shipping costs, the price on the dock in Wichita was better than anything I could do dealing with local suppliers.
You might look for sawmills closer to your neck of the woods.
>While I'm at it, does anyone have any recommendations as to suppliers
>around the SF Bay and maybe also online? I usually frequent
>Handloggers but am familar with McBeath (sp?) and a place in Alameda -
>White Bros maybe?
Can't help you there.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA