Semi OT-B&D profits way up

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:45:29 -0500, Mark wrote
(in message <[email protected]>):

> During the Chicago WWing show, I walked
> around the floor and looked at a lot of the boxes to see countries of
> origin. More than ever 'Made in China' is sweeping the industry. Damn
> shame.

This is why I keep looking at where stuff is made. As I replace more of my
tools, I find them going from various colors to red as Milwaukee tools
replace my others. While they don't make everything in the states, most
everything seems to be made either in Germany or the US. There are some
exceptions, but I'm willing to spend the extra $$ for quality tools I'm going
to have to replace again for a long time and help out somebody other than
China. I don't think we would be so harsh on Cuba if they had cheap labor
and/or cheap goods to sell us.

Wayne

Which country?????

Rumpty wrote:
>>More than ever 'Made in China' is sweeping the industry. Damn
>
> shame.
>
> Mark,
>
> Haven't you heard out sourcing is good for the country????
>
> --
>
> Rumpty
>
> Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>

Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote:

> One would think that what is good for one would be good for all - and the
> reverse.

No. As always there are various pluses and minuses.

> I spoze we should ban outsourcing/insourcing and put job cops on
> the borders?

No.

Eliminate subsidies for outsourcing. Let companies succeed or fail on
their merits.

Reverse the trend toward cronyism and favoritism in trade.

Negotiate standards of regulation across borders.

> I'm of the opinion that good job providers should be
> encouraged to provide jobs no matter where the goods they produce are
> consumed -

Jobs is but one facet of the issue.

> but I'm also sure this doesn't make sense to those who have the
> "burger flipin jobs ain't woth it" agenda.

Which agenda is that?
>
> --
> "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always
> depend on the support of Paul." - George Bernard Shaw

"Tax breaks for corporations [and their investors] were a major part of
the administration's 2002 and 2003 initiatives. If class warfare is
being waged in America, my class is clearly winning."

Warren Buffett, the second wealthiest man in the world, recently noted
Berkshire Hathaway paid $3.3bn in tax last year, amounting to
2.5% of the total income tax paid by all US corporations.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> "Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:03:21 -0400, Rumpty wrote:
> >
> > >> More than ever 'Made in China' is sweeping the industry. Damn
> > > shame.
> > >
> > > Mark,
> > >
> > > Haven't you heard out sourcing is good for the country????
> >
> > It is when other countries outsource jobs to us. The latest numbers show
> > we insource about 6.5 million jobs from other countries - that is foreign
> > companies hire 6.5 million American workers in the US, and the trend is
> > insourcing gaining on outsourcing.
> >
> > -Doug
>
> sure. when the american dollar loses value in the world economy, insourcing
> gains on outsourcing.
>
> randy
>

There is just no such thing as good news with you, is there?

"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I guess that since Black and Decker reported profits have almost
> doubled, there isn't much of a chance for them to bring any of their
> business back to the States. During the Chicago WWing show, I walked
> around the floor and looked at a lot of the boxes to see countries of
> origin. More than ever 'Made in China' is sweeping the industry. Damn
> shame. Mark
>

Well - that's normal self-interest at work...

Consumers want the lowest price, stockholders want the highest returns...the
company wants to survive.

Change the message that B&D gets - either from the consumer, or from the
stockholders.

Rob

B&D is the parent company of a number of brands, including some damn fine
formerly Swiss.

"Renata" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> With B&D this is kinda expected, as they're not a high end line. i.e.
> Folks buying B&D are more likely than not, looking at price first.
> WIth Delta, I repeat my query of why they'd want to move operations to
> a country with an established reputation (at the moment, anyway) for
> producing cheap crap.

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 03:26:18 +0000, Guy wrote:

>
> Whenever I read that statistic, the accompanying evidence cites companies
> like Toyota and BMW that manufacture cars in the US for North America. But
> this isn't really outsourcing by those companies. It's just moving the
> manufacturing to the customers' country. Now if Toyota exported cars made
> in the US back to Japan, *that* would be outsourcing akin to our
> situation. But I suspect they don't go that far.

One would think that what is good for one would be good for all - and the
reverse. I spoze we should ban outsourcing/insourcing and put job cops on
the borders? I'm of the opinion that good job providers should be
encouraged to provide jobs no matter where the goods they produce are
consumed - but I'm also sure this doesn't make sense to those who have the
"burger flipin jobs ain't woth it" agenda.

-Doug

--
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always
depend on the support of Paul." - George Bernard Shaw

when i was in college i had a job at a godfathers pizza. but i never had to
work the closing shift. on weekends i would be off and partying early.
first one out the door. so finally somebody asked me how i got away with
never closing. i asked that person if they were asked, in the interview, if
they would close. they said 'ya they asked me that'. i said 'what did you
say to that question'. they said 'i told them i would'. i simply told them
'i said no to that question and i dont have to close'.

randy

"Renata" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You know, that was kinda my thought - if you refuse to train your
> replacement, what are they gonna do, fire you?
> Indeed, is the extra 2 weeks pay or whatever they may with hold,
> really worth it?
> Me, I'd say, screw (OWWR, sorta) you!
>
> Renata
>
> On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:29:44 -0600, "xrongor" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >i beg of each and every one of you. if you are ever put in this
position,
> >do NOT do it. just smile and walk.
> >
> >remember when you were told as a kid 'this will go down in your permanant
> >record'? by now im sure you know what bull that was. the same goes with
> >past employers. if your new employer knows you ate shit from your last
> >employer guess what he expects? you're better off to look your next
> >employer in the eye and say 'i was asked to train my foreign replacement
and
> >i refused'. you may not get that job, but it will save you lots of
time.
> >if the new boss doesnt like what you said, he was probably planning on
> >screwing you. if he does, you may have found the right job. a company
> >usually wants competent people and pays for them, or toadstools and
pisses
> >on them. dont be a toadstool. kissing too much ass in the interview
simply
> >sets you up to be kissing more ass for the next 10 years.
> >
> >and right now, we got engineers kissing ass for mc jobs. and that isnt
> >right. but ya know why that is? because too many engineers are WILLING
to
> >kiss ass for mc jobs. you dont need to be part of any official union to
> >join the 'i wont work for peanuts' club. that extra week or two of pay
you
> >get training your replacement will be gone long before your self esteem
> >returns.
> >
> >one last myth to bust. your next employer really doesnt honestly expect
you
> >to have left on perfect terms with your last employer. i mean come on,
> >you're looking for a new job. and if they do, trust me, you dont want to
> >work there.
> >
> >randy
> >
> >> These people had to train
> >> their replacements by obviously explaining the particular things they
> >> worked on. Talk about a demeaning thing to do!
> >
>

"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:03:21 -0400, Rumpty wrote:
>
> >> More than ever 'Made in China' is sweeping the industry. Damn
> > shame.
> >
> > Mark,
> >
> > Haven't you heard out sourcing is good for the country????
>
> It is when other countries outsource jobs to us. The latest numbers show
> we insource about 6.5 million jobs from other countries - that is foreign
> companies hire 6.5 million American workers in the US, and the trend is
> insourcing gaining on outsourcing.
>
> -Doug

sure. when the american dollar loses value in the world economy, insourcing
gains on outsourcing.

randy

i beg of each and every one of you. if you are ever put in this position,
do NOT do it. just smile and walk.

remember when you were told as a kid 'this will go down in your permanant
record'? by now im sure you know what bull that was. the same goes with
past employers. if your new employer knows you ate shit from your last
employer guess what he expects? you're better off to look your next
employer in the eye and say 'i was asked to train my foreign replacement and
i refused'. you may not get that job, but it will save you lots of time.
if the new boss doesnt like what you said, he was probably planning on
screwing you. if he does, you may have found the right job. a company
usually wants competent people and pays for them, or toadstools and pisses
on them. dont be a toadstool. kissing too much ass in the interview simply
sets you up to be kissing more ass for the next 10 years.

and right now, we got engineers kissing ass for mc jobs. and that isnt
right. but ya know why that is? because too many engineers are WILLING to
kiss ass for mc jobs. you dont need to be part of any official union to
join the 'i wont work for peanuts' club. that extra week or two of pay you
get training your replacement will be gone long before your self esteem
returns.

one last myth to bust. your next employer really doesnt honestly expect you
to have left on perfect terms with your last employer. i mean come on,
you're looking for a new job. and if they do, trust me, you dont want to
work there.

randy

> These people had to train
> their replacements by obviously explaining the particular things they
> worked on. Talk about a demeaning thing to do!

> More than ever 'Made in China' is sweeping the industry. Damn
shame.

Mark,

Haven't you heard out sourcing is good for the country????

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

That's another reason I like to go to every WWing show I can. When I
ask the sales reps questions, I do try to tactfully ask where the
machine/widget is made. Somehow I try to relay the fact that I prefer
North American made (can't leave out our friends to the north, eh
Robin?) products over Chinwanese. I don't mean to slight anyone or any
country at all, I just want to see people working again.

I agree with Robin, it's us the consumers who keep demanding lower
prices. And it's also us, the shareholders who demand higher stock
prices. But hopefully not everyone makes their buying decisions based
solely on price.

Robin Lee wrote:

>>
>
>
> Well - that's normal self-interest at work...
>
> Consumers want the lowest price, stockholders want the highest returns...the
> company wants to survive.
>
> Change the message that B&D gets - either from the consumer, or from the
> stockholders.
>
> Rob
>
>
>
>
>

> >
> > Whenever I read that statistic, the accompanying evidence cites companies
> > like Toyota and BMW that manufacture cars in the US for North America. But
> > this isn't really outsourcing by those companies. It's just moving the
> > manufacturing to the customers' country. Now if Toyota exported cars made
> > in the US back to Japan, *that* would be outsourcing akin to our
> > situation. But I suspect they don't go that far.
>
> One would think that what is good for one would be good for all - and the
> reverse. I spoze we should ban outsourcing/insourcing and put job cops on
> the borders? I'm of the opinion that good job providers should be
> encouraged to provide jobs no matter where the goods they produce are
> consumed - but I'm also sure this doesn't make sense to those who have the
> "burger flipin jobs ain't woth it" agenda.
>
> -Doug

Doug,

I can understand what you are saying but the fact of the matter is
jobs in this country are being outsourced to other countries (like
China) and the people who used to do those jobs here either cannot
find work or are, in many cases, woefully underemployed.

There is nothing the matter with Delta making table saws in China by
people living in China as long as the table saws they are producing in
China are sold in China.

But I see a big problem when Delta starts making tables saws in China
by people living in China and selling those table saws to people
living in the US and the people who used to make the table saws cannot
afford to purchase one because they are working flipping burgers at
two McDonalds and a Burger King while trying to be a Wal-Mart greeter
during the rest of their waking hours.

I see nothing the matter with flipping burgers and it is good
experience for the average teen and young 20-something to get their
feet wet in the working world. But when you are forced to do it after
you get your engineering degree, and MBA, 20-odd years of work
experience, and have a spouse, kids, and mortgage, I certainly DO see
a problem with that.

> Snip
>
> >
> > I see nothing the matter with flipping burgers and it is good
> > experience for the average teen and young 20-something to get their
> > feet wet in the working world. But when you are forced to do it after
> > you get your engineering degree, and MBA, 20-odd years of work
> > experience, and have a spouse, kids, and mortgage, I certainly DO see
> > a problem with that.
>
>
> So do I, seems someone with an engineering degree or a MBA should have
> learned more and or should be smart enough to find a job. As you point
> out, and thank goodness, a college education does not guarantee a form of
> "affirmative action" that guarantee's a job. It simply blows me away what
> some of the colleges are turning out. I cannot believe that many of these
> people have degrees at all. They have no common sense.

Leon,

I think we are saying two different things but with the same result.
I agree that there are a lot of people who come out of so-called
educational institutions and don't know their hind-end from a hole in
the wall, but that is something completely different than what I was
trying to say.

For example where I work, the company outsourced about 35 programming
jobs to an eastern country (well, east of the U.S.) and every single
one of those people had at least a bachelor's degree and more than a
few had at least part of a master's degree. These people had to train
their replacements by obviously explaining the particular things they
worked on. Talk about a demeaning thing to do! And, to top it off,
these poor souls had to actually teach almost every single one of the
'programming experts' the outsourcing company sent over how to program
but, what the heck? It is costing the company 40% less to have people
pretending to be programmers.

Now all but two of the people have 'real' jobs over 11 months
later--and those two people had to move to different states. One took
a 25% pay-cut to program and the other took an almost 40% pay-cut to
be an operator.

Several of the others have jobs like stocking shelves at a local
Wal-mart or grocery store. A couple have found nothing and are doing
nothing. Meanwhile, these latter ones are talking to the state
unemployment office which has been outsourced to Mexico--now, explain
that one! There are citizens in many states taht are unemployed but
these states outsource their work to help people in their state get a
job.

Every single one of these people are bright (believe it or not) but
simply cannot find a job--even a horrible one. One of the reasons is
because they are over-qualified and companies don't want to take a
chance on them. Well, doh!

That is an example of what I was talking about where I don't think
somebody who has paid their dues by getting an education, being
gainfully employed for many years, and has given back to the country
they are living in by buying houses, paying taxes, etc. should be
forced to flip burgers just because it only costs a person living in
China $4,000 US dollars a year to live like a king.

Well, xrongor, I agree with you. Wholeheartedly.

I was on the fringe of those people and the replacements needed to
interview me and others in my department, too. I am one of 5 ADABAS
and Oracle DBAs.

I sort of, kind of did what you said except I did help at the barest
minimum. I told the guy who was heading up the outsourcing project
that I did not want to answer their questions. I told him I despise
that company, I despise their mission statement (which can be summed
up in a few words: "Rape the American, steal his job, and let him
gnash his teeth on the street while he tries to find work."), and I
certainly despise the people I would talk to becausethey are the ones
who are doing it.

And I told him I would say it to the guy(s) who were coming. He said
I need to do what I need to do.

When the guys came to me, they stuck their hands out to shake mine and
I looked at them and shook my head "No." They were extremely
surprised. Then I proceeded to tellthem I hated their comapny, its
mission statement, and I truly had a severe dislike for them. I
answered their questions truthfully but curtly. They sat with me for
about 15 minutes--everybody else did what you said NOT to do and these
guys were with them for at least 4 hours a piece. And they kept
coming back to everybody...except me.

This all happened around July of last year. Now, everytime they see
me in the ha;;, they almost run away. If they NEED to come and see
me, it's like they crawl over. It sort of feels good but I am still
so darn pissed the 30+ are gone--and several were very good friends of
mine, including one of the guys that moved his family.

All I can say is I said what I said and I did what I did and I am
still here, so there may be something in what you say!

Rumpty <[email protected]> wrote:
:> More than ever 'Made in China' is sweeping the industry. Damn
: shame.

: Mark,

: Haven't you heard out sourcing is good for the country????


Look no further than the Bush administration! They endorse it highly.


-- Andy Barss

"Ray Kinzler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...



Snip

>
> I see nothing the matter with flipping burgers and it is good
> experience for the average teen and young 20-something to get their
> feet wet in the working world. But when you are forced to do it after
> you get your engineering degree, and MBA, 20-odd years of work
> experience, and have a spouse, kids, and mortgage, I certainly DO see
> a problem with that.


So do I, seems someone with an engineering degree or a MBA should have
learned more and or should be smart enough to find a job. As you point
out, and thank goodness, a college education does not guarantee a form of
"affirmative action" that guarantee's a job. It simply blows me away what
some of the colleges are turning out. I cannot believe that many of these
people have degrees at all. They have no common sense.

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:03:21 -0400, Rumpty wrote:

>> More than ever 'Made in China' is sweeping the industry. Damn
> shame.
>
> Mark,
>
> Haven't you heard out sourcing is good for the country????

It is when other countries outsource jobs to us. The latest numbers show
we insource about 6.5 million jobs from other countries - that is foreign
companies hire 6.5 million American workers in the US, and the trend is
insourcing gaining on outsourcing.

-Doug

--
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always
depend on the support of Paul." - George Bernard Shaw

You know, that was kinda my thought - if you refuse to train your
replacement, what are they gonna do, fire you?
Indeed, is the extra 2 weeks pay or whatever they may with hold,
really worth it?
Me, I'd say, screw (OWWR, sorta) you!

Renata

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:29:44 -0600, "xrongor" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>i beg of each and every one of you. if you are ever put in this position,
>do NOT do it. just smile and walk.
>
>remember when you were told as a kid 'this will go down in your permanant
>record'? by now im sure you know what bull that was. the same goes with
>past employers. if your new employer knows you ate shit from your last
>employer guess what he expects? you're better off to look your next
>employer in the eye and say 'i was asked to train my foreign replacement and
>i refused'. you may not get that job, but it will save you lots of time.
>if the new boss doesnt like what you said, he was probably planning on
>screwing you. if he does, you may have found the right job. a company
>usually wants competent people and pays for them, or toadstools and pisses
>on them. dont be a toadstool. kissing too much ass in the interview simply
>sets you up to be kissing more ass for the next 10 years.
>
>and right now, we got engineers kissing ass for mc jobs. and that isnt
>right. but ya know why that is? because too many engineers are WILLING to
>kiss ass for mc jobs. you dont need to be part of any official union to
>join the 'i wont work for peanuts' club. that extra week or two of pay you
>get training your replacement will be gone long before your self esteem
>returns.
>
>one last myth to bust. your next employer really doesnt honestly expect you
>to have left on perfect terms with your last employer. i mean come on,
>you're looking for a new job. and if they do, trust me, you dont want to
>work there.
>
>randy
>
>> These people had to train
>> their replacements by obviously explaining the particular things they
>> worked on. Talk about a demeaning thing to do!
>

With B&D this is kinda expected, as they're not a high end line. i.e.
Folks buying B&D are more likely than not, looking at price first.
WIth Delta, I repeat my query of why they'd want to move operations to
a country with an established reputation (at the moment, anyway) for
producing cheap crap.

Renata

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:45:29 GMT, Mark <[email protected]> wrote:

>I guess that since Black and Decker reported profits have almost
>doubled, there isn't much of a chance for them to bring any of their
>business back to the States. During the Chicago WWing show, I walked
>around the floor and looked at a lot of the boxes to see countries of
>origin. More than ever 'Made in China' is sweeping the industry. Damn
>shame. Mark

"Rumpty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > More than ever 'Made in China' is sweeping the industry. Damn
> shame.
>
> Mark,
>
> Haven't you heard out sourcing is good for the country????
>
> --
>
> Rumpty

For China maybe!


--
© Jon Down ®
My eBay items currently listed:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=lamblies&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25

"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:03:21 -0400, Rumpty wrote:
>
> >> More than ever 'Made in China' is sweeping the industry. Damn
> > shame.
> >
> > Mark,
> >
> > Haven't you heard out sourcing is good for the country????
>
> It is when other countries outsource jobs to us. The latest numbers show
> we insource about 6.5 million jobs from other countries - that is foreign
> companies hire 6.5 million American workers in the US, and the trend is
> insourcing gaining on outsourcing.
>
> -Doug

Whenever I read that statistic, the accompanying evidence cites companies
like Toyota and BMW that manufacture cars in the US for North America. But
this isn't really outsourcing by those companies. It's just moving the
manufacturing to the customers' country. Now if Toyota exported cars made in
the US back to Japan, *that* would be outsourcing akin to our situation. But
I suspect they don't go that far.

>
> --
> "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always
> depend on the support of Paul." - George Bernard Shaw
>

"Renata" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> With B&D this is kinda expected, as they're not a high end line. i.e.
> Folks buying B&D are more likely than not, looking at price first.
> WIth Delta, I repeat my query of why they'd want to move operations to
> a country with an established reputation (at the moment, anyway) for
> producing cheap crap.
>
> Renata

Delta may be moving to Taiwan because Taiwan is producing good quality
equipment. Remember, it is the company having the equipment manufactured
that dictates quality. Today Jet gives Delta a good run for its money and
the American built Delta Unisaws seem to not hold up as well in shipping as
to the imports.