Hey gang,
I just put up a new web site yesterday with various DC topics as well as
the kits I produce based on Bill Pentz's cyclone design, blower housings,
motors, etc. You're invited to look around and tell me what y'all think
of the content. It's a work in progress and more topics will be coming
online as I get time to create them.
http://www.cleanshopair.com
Clarke
(Take "NOT" out of email address for direct communication)
I don't know about others here but I seldom run my DC for extended
lengths of time. Yes, I would prefer a continuous duty motor but for
most hobbiest, compressor duty should be just fine. Actually in my SILs
frame shop (auto) his compressors often run longer than my DC ever does.
BRuce
Andrew Barss wrote:
> Clarke Echols <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : Hey gang,
>
> : I just put up a new web site yesterday with various DC topics as well as
> : the kits I produce based on Bill Pentz's cyclone design, blower housings,
> : motors, etc. You're invited to look around and tell me what y'all think
> : of the content.
>
> 1) Half of your prices are missing.
>
>
> 2) An air compressor usually runs for a short time, then turns off.
> Your motors are rated compressor duty. Oneida Air's motors are
> continuous duty, which is what I want in a dust collection system.
>
>
> 3) You list no information concerning the airflow in a real workshop
> situation.
>
> 4) You list no info on the most critical aspect of a DC system, which is
> what percentage of very fine dust is captured by the system.
>
> Compare your website and its info to Oneida's, and yours comes up sorely
> lacking.
>
> -- Andy Barss
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> . It's a work in progress and more topics will be coming
> : online as I get time to create them.
>
> : http://www.cleanshopair.com
>
> : Clarke
>
> : (Take "NOT" out of email address for direct communication)
>
--
---
BRuce
"Clarke Echols" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Hey gang,
>
> I just put up a new web site yesterday with various DC topics as well as
> the kits I produce based on Bill Pentz's cyclone design, blower housings,
> motors, etc. You're invited to look around and tell me what y'all think
> of the content. It's a work in progress and more topics will be coming
> online as I get time to create them.
>
>
I don't nessasarily mean to flame Clarke, but when does spam become allowed
here? Can Harbor Feight, Amazon, Lee Valley, Penn State and a zillion others
post advertising here 'cuz it is related?? Clarkes posts stink slightly of
spam to me as they are of commercial nature.
On the other hand if someone wanted to post a link to a commercial site in
their signiture would it be ok?
Just wondering! If nobody has a problem with this, never mind! Just wanted
to kick the bee hive!.
Greg
"Greg O" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I don't nessasarily mean to flame Clarke, but when does spam become allowed
> here?
It's all too easy to get a hair-trigger over "spam" these days.
Clarke's posts are _not_ Spam, for Spam has a formally recognised BI
level (TINC), and his posts are well under it. In the midst of a
flurry of real spam and BAD's nipples, this sort of post is the last
thing I've got to worry about. When it comes down to it, "spam" is
"that stuff which annoys you".
I _like_ commercial posts to rec.woodworking, within limits. Not too
many of them, interesting (i.e. varied and genuinely novel content)
and relevant. There's a certain level of (I hate to say it) hypocrisy
about commercial postings here sometimes - Sellers "whom we like" can
post a blatant ad, I can talk about specific bandsaw models with
impunity, but an identical post about the same bandsaw
_from_its_maker_ would attract flames. Now why is this ? I'd like to
see more manufacturers and vendors talking about their products.
Provided there's some actual content involved, not just a re-hashed
catalogue (that's what the web is for), then a good posting is a good
posting, no matter whether it's commercial in origin or amateur.
I come here to talk about woodworking. Someone's new product to help
me do it is just as relevant as planing techniques.
As a pointer to potential advert posters, I'd suggest the following.
Maybe we might even want to discuss and codify similar ideas and then
clarify the group's charter.
- Catalogues and product listings belong on the web - it's just the
best place for them. Don't post lists of products to newsgroups.
- If we want to find your site, we'll use Google. You don't need to
wave your arms in the air just to remind us you're there.
- Opening a new site ? Then why not tell us about it. That's news.
But can you turn this snippet into something that's worthwhile for the
wreck's readers to read ? A new maker of hand-made chisels is
interesting, yet another eBay drop-shipper isn't.
- Don't repeat yourself. Maybe it was justifiable to make that post
(whatever it was) once. Repeating it makes it unacceptable, because
just the repetition alone is enough.
- It's easier to annoy people permanently than it is to recover their
goodwill afterwards. Be minimal at first, because the risk of stepping
over the line is large and the costs are greater.
- If you have news, tell us some news. We like news. We like shiny
new toys. "Dog Bites Man" is not news though. Nor is a hammer maker
telling us they make hammers. Titanium mjolnirs for a dollar, that's
news. "Now in blue" isn't.
Clarke Echols <[email protected]> wrote:
: Hey gang,
: I just put up a new web site yesterday with various DC topics as well as
: the kits I produce based on Bill Pentz's cyclone design, blower housings,
: motors, etc. You're invited to look around and tell me what y'all think
: of the content.
1) Half of your prices are missing.
2) An air compressor usually runs for a short time, then turns off.
Your motors are rated compressor duty. Oneida Air's motors are
continuous duty, which is what I want in a dust collection system.
3) You list no information concerning the airflow in a real workshop
situation.
4) You list no info on the most critical aspect of a DC system, which is
what percentage of very fine dust is captured by the system.
Compare your website and its info to Oneida's, and yours comes up sorely
lacking.
-- Andy Barss
. It's a work in progress and more topics will be coming
: online as I get time to create them.
: http://www.cleanshopair.com
: Clarke
: (Take "NOT" out of email address for direct communication)
--
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Andy Barss
Department of Linguistics, University of Arizona
Douglass 208, 626-3284
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
John Sellers <[email protected]> wrote:
: But, some prices are there. And, Clarke did state he just got the
: website on-line; there are also plenty of indicators that development
: is still on-going. Perhaps you could give him a chance to refine it?
If someone witha startup business posts a link to a new website, I would
recomm3end he lists the prices for his stuff. That's all.
:> 2) An air compressor usually runs for a short time, then turns off.
:> Your motors are rated compressor duty. Oneida Air's motors are
:> continuous duty, which is what I want in a dust collection system.
: Motors listed on Oneida's site aren't any better than the Leeson motor
: which Clarke is recommending for his system.
My original point remains.
:> 3) You list no information concerning the airflow in a real
: workshop
:> situation.
: Airflow (as well as the corresponding pressure drop variable) is
: dependant upon the system ducting and hookups. There are many
: variables which prevent any guaranteed performance for all situations.
: This is something that Oneida and other vendors won't tell you. It
: helps them sell their product.
Sure, but he could at least post this sort of comparative info:
http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/comparemain.htm
http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/sidebyside.htm
http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/comparisonchart.htm
: Sorely lacking is a bit harsh, considering what Clarke is offering for
: the average woodworker. I am now building one of Clarke's cyclones.
: I am also using his recommendations along with those of Bill Pentz,
: who Clarke has recognized on his website. It's good to have this kind
: of research and help available for those who want to build a
: top-performance dust collection system with a tight budget. If you
: try and get similar performance from Oneida (or other vendors), you'll
: spend 3-4 times as much.
You could also spend a lot more, if you need
: dust collection in a production shop. Check the following links for
: the Oneida 5HP system, it's probably the closest one Oneida sells that
: is comparable to the Pentz/Echols system design.
: http://www.oneida-air.com/systems/5hv/5hvconfigs.htm
: http://www.oneida-air.com/pdf/system%20price%20sheet%202004.pdf
But the 2 or 3HP Oneida system is just fine for a recreational hobbiest.
And I doubt you could build one from Clarke's kit for 1/3 to 1.4 the price
of those.
-- Andy Barss
Andrew Barss wrote:
> John Sellers <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : But, some prices are there. And, Clarke did state he just got the
> : website on-line; there are also plenty of indicators that development
> : is still on-going. Perhaps you could give him a chance to refine it?
>
>
> If someone witha startup business posts a link to a new website, I would
> recomm3end he lists the prices for his stuff. That's all.
He listed the prices for everything that he has available for sale. So
where's the beef?
> :> 2) An air compressor usually runs for a short time, then turns off.
> :> Your motors are rated compressor duty. Oneida Air's motors are
> :> continuous duty, which is what I want in a dust collection system.
>
> : Motors listed on Oneida's site aren't any better than the Leeson motor
> : which Clarke is recommending for his system.
>
> My original point remains.
What point is that? If Oneida's using the same motor then how is it
"better"? Regardless, if you want a different motor for God's sake use a
different motor. You're the one building the thing, not Clarke. You can
use a 20,000 horesepower gas turbine if you want to.
> :> 3) You list no information concerning the airflow in a real
> : workshop
> :> situation.
>
> : Airflow (as well as the corresponding pressure drop variable) is
> : dependant upon the system ducting and hookups. There are many
> : variables which prevent any guaranteed performance for all situations.
> : This is something that Oneida and other vendors won't tell you. It
> : helps them sell their product.
>
> Sure, but he could at least post this sort of comparative info:
>
> http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/comparemain.htm
> http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/sidebyside.htm
> http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/comparisonchart.htm
>
>
> : Sorely lacking is a bit harsh, considering what Clarke is offering for
> : the average woodworker. I am now building one of Clarke's cyclones.
> : I am also using his recommendations along with those of Bill Pentz,
> : who Clarke has recognized on his website. It's good to have this kind
> : of research and help available for those who want to build a
> : top-performance dust collection system with a tight budget. If you
> : try and get similar performance from Oneida (or other vendors), you'll
> : spend 3-4 times as much.
>
>
> You could also spend a lot more, if you need
> : dust collection in a production shop. Check the following links for
> : the Oneida 5HP system, it's probably the closest one Oneida sells that
> : is comparable to the Pentz/Echols system design.
>
> : http://www.oneida-air.com/systems/5hv/5hvconfigs.htm
> : http://www.oneida-air.com/pdf/system%20price%20sheet%202004.pdf
>
> But the 2 or 3HP Oneida system is just fine for a recreational hobbiest.
> And I doubt you could build one from Clarke's kit for 1/3 to 1.4 the price
> of those.
>
> -- Andy Barss
Andrew, I think you have some fundamental misconceptions about what Clarke
is offering.
Forget Clarke's site entirely and go to
<http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm>. Clarke is offering
precut sheet metal parts for one variant of that system, and a welded up
blower housing.
All the information you want is on the designer's site.
As for the motors, Leeson will be happy to sell you a different motor if you
don't like the one that Bill recommends. Given that it's a 5 horse motor
rated on the nameplate for continuous duty, that it's derated to 3
horsepower by the design of the cyclone and blower, and that Leeson sells
the same basic design as a general purpose 3 horsepower continuous duty
motor, I think your concerns are a bit overblown.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
: He listed the prices for everything that he has available for sale. So
: where's the beef?
No, he didn't.
: What point is that? If Oneida's using the same motor then how is it
: "better"?
Um, it's not using the same motor.
:> :> 3) You list no information concerning the airflow in a real
:> : workshop
:> :> situation.
:>
:> : Airflow (as well as the corresponding pressure drop variable) is
:> : dependant upon the system ducting and hookups. There are many
:> : variables which prevent any guaranteed performance for all situations.
:> : This is something that Oneida and other vendors won't tell you. It
:> : helps them sell their product.
:>
:> Sure, but he could at least post this sort of comparative info:
:>
:> http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/comparemain.htm
:> http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/sidebyside.htm
:> http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/comparisonchart.htm
:>
Any response to this?
:> : Sorely lacking is a bit harsh, considering what Clarke is offering for
:> : the average woodworker. I am now building one of Clarke's cyclones.
God for you. I'd like to hear, after you finish, how much time it took,
what it ended up costing, and how the system performs under the criteria
used by Oneida in their posted specs.
:>
:> But the 2 or 3HP Oneida system is just fine for a recreational hobbiest.
:> And I doubt you could build one from Clarke's kit for 1/3 to 1.4 the price
:> of those.
: Andrew, I think you have some fundamental misconceptions about what Clarke
: is offering.
You didn't address the point I made above: Clarke's kit does not offer
the same performance as an Oneida system for one-third to one-quarter the
price.
And I don't think I have any misconceptions about Clarke's system. It's a
kit, with unknown performance, which costs about as much (when you fill in
the unprovided parts) as a Oneida system which has known specs.
: Forget Clarke's site entirely and go to
: <http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm>. Clarke is offering
: precut sheet metal parts for one variant of that system, and a welded up
: blower housing.
AND a claim that his system beats Oneida on price and performance, with
zero hard evidence to back that up.
: As for the motors, Leeson will be happy to sell you a different motor if you
: don't like the one that Bill recommends. Given that it's a 5 horse motor
: rated on the nameplate for continuous duty
No, it's rated for compressor duty.
, that it's derated to 3
: horsepower by the design of the cyclone and blower
I have no idea what this means.
, and that Leeson sells
: the same basic design as a general purpose 3 horsepower continuous duty
: motor, I think your concerns are a bit overblown.
the SAME motor? I don't think so.
-- Andy Barss
Andrew Barss wrote:
> J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : He listed the prices for everything that he has available for sale. So
> : where's the beef?
>
> No, he didn't.
For what specific item, that he has in stock for delivery, and for which he
will accept orders, does he not show a price?
> : What point is that? If Oneida's using the same motor then how is it
> : "better"?
>
> Um, it's not using the same motor.
And of course you've found out what motor Oneida is using and compared model
numbers from the Leeson site.
> :> :> 3) You list no information concerning the airflow in a real
> :> : workshop
> :> :> situation.
> :>
> :> : Airflow (as well as the corresponding pressure drop variable) is
> :> : dependant upon the system ducting and hookups. There are many
> :> : variables which prevent any guaranteed performance for all
> :> : situations.
> :> : This is something that Oneida and other vendors won't tell you. It
> :> : helps them sell their product.
> :>
> :> Sure, but he could at least post this sort of comparative info:
> :>
> :> http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/comparemain.htm
> :> http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/sidebyside.htm
> :> http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/comparisonchart.htm
> :>
>
> Any response to this?
SEE BILL'S SITE. How many times do you have to be told this before it sinks
in?
> :> : Sorely lacking is a bit harsh, considering what Clarke is offering
> :> : for
> :> : the average woodworker. I am now building one of Clarke's cyclones.
>
>
> God for you. I'd like to hear, after you finish, how much time it took,
> what it ended up costing, and how the system performs under the criteria
> used by Oneida in their posted specs.
Ended up costing about the same as a 2 horse Oneida for me. As for how it
performs, I'm sorry, but I don't have the instrumentation to tell you in
detail what airflows it provides etc, all I can say with certainty is that
it sucks, extremely well.
> :> But the 2 or 3HP Oneida system is just fine for a recreational
> :> hobbiest. And I doubt you could build one from Clarke's kit for 1/3 to
> :> 1.4 the price of those.
>
> : Andrew, I think you have some fundamental misconceptions about what
> : Clarke is offering.
>
> You didn't address the point I made above: Clarke's kit does not offer
> the same performance as an Oneida system for one-third to one-quarter the
> price.
That depends on you. If you're a good scrounger you may very well be able
to build Bill's system, for which Clarke provides some parts, for 1/3 the
price of an equivalent Oneida. If you're not then Bill's 5 horsepower
system is going to cost about the same as a 2 horsepower Oneida.
> And I don't think I have any misconceptions about Clarke's system. It's a
> kit, with unknown performance, which costs about as much (when you fill in
> the unprovided parts) as a Oneida system which has known specs.
Yes, you do have misconceptions. IT'S NOT CLARKE'S SYSTEM for one thing.
It's BILL's system for which Clarke provides some parts.
> : Forget Clarke's site entirely and go to
> : <http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm>. Clarke is
> : offering precut sheet metal parts for one variant of that system, and a
> : welded up blower housing.
>
> AND a claim that his system beats Oneida on price and performance, with
> zero hard evidence to back that up.
I do not even find the word "Oneida" on Clarke's site. Could you please
link the page on which he makes this claim?
>
> : As for the motors, Leeson will be happy to sell you a different motor if
> : you
> : don't like the one that Bill recommends. Given that it's a 5 horse
> : motor rated on the nameplate for continuous duty
>
> No, it's rated for compressor duty.
I have one sitting in front of me. The name plate does not contain the word
"compressor" anywhere. In the box marked "Duty" it contains "CONT.".
> , that it's derated to 3
> : horsepower by the design of the cyclone and blower
>
> I have no idea what this means.
Well then perhaps you should not be berating people who _do_ know what it
means.
> , and that Leeson sells
> : the same basic design as a general purpose 3 horsepower continuous duty
> : motor, I think your concerns are a bit overblown.
>
> the SAME motor? I don't think so.
When you _know_ something get back to us.
> -- Andy Barss
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:47:45 -0500, "Greg O" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Clarke Echols" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Hey gang,
>>
>> I just put up a new web site yesterday with various DC topics as well as
>> the kits I produce based on Bill Pentz's cyclone design, blower housings,
>> motors, etc. You're invited to look around and tell me what y'all think
>> of the content. It's a work in progress and more topics will be coming
>> online as I get time to create them.
>>
>>
>
>I don't nessasarily mean to flame Clarke, but when does spam become allowed
>here? Can Harbor Feight, Amazon, Lee Valley, Penn State and a zillion others
>post advertising here 'cuz it is related?? Clarkes posts stink slightly of
>spam to me as they are of commercial nature.
>
>On the other hand if someone wanted to post a link to a commercial site in
>their signiture would it be ok?
>
>Just wondering! If nobody has a problem with this, never mind! Just wanted
>to kick the bee hive!.
>Greg
clarke spams the wreck on a regular basis. I don't think he's ever
posted a non spam post here. that's why he's in my killfile...
"Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Clarke Echols <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : Hey gang,
>
> : I just put up a new web site yesterday with various DC topics as
well as
> : the kits I produce based on Bill Pentz's cyclone design, blower
housings,
> : motors, etc. You're invited to look around and tell me what y'all
think
> : of the content.
> 1) Half of your prices are missing.
But, some prices are there. And, Clarke did state he just got the
website on-line; there are also plenty of indicators that development
is still on-going. Perhaps you could give him a chance to refine it?
> 2) An air compressor usually runs for a short time, then turns off.
> Your motors are rated compressor duty. Oneida Air's motors are
> continuous duty, which is what I want in a dust collection system.
Motors listed on Oneida's site aren't any better than the Leeson motor
which Clarke is recommending for his system. Look at the full-load
current to see what performance the motor is actually capable of
delivering.
> 3) You list no information concerning the airflow in a real
workshop
> situation.
Airflow (as well as the corresponding pressure drop variable) is
dependant upon the system ducting and hookups. There are many
variables which prevent any guaranteed performance for all situations.
This is something that Oneida and other vendors won't tell you. It
helps them sell their product.
> 4) You list no info on the most critical aspect of a DC system,
which is
> what percentage of very fine dust is captured by the system.
This characteristic is a function of the filter element. Clarke may
not be selling filters yet, but he'll give you some sources for very
good ones.
> Compare your website and its info to Oneida's, and yours comes up
sorely
> lacking.
Sorely lacking is a bit harsh, considering what Clarke is offering for
the average woodworker. I am now building one of Clarke's cyclones.
I am also using his recommendations along with those of Bill Pentz,
who Clarke has recognized on his website. It's good to have this kind
of research and help available for those who want to build a
top-performance dust collection system with a tight budget. If you
try and get similar performance from Oneida (or other vendors), you'll
spend 3-4 times as much. You could also spend a lot more, if you need
dust collection in a production shop. Check the following links for
the Oneida 5HP system, it's probably the closest one Oneida sells that
is comparable to the Pentz/Echols system design.
http://www.oneida-air.com/systems/5hv/5hvconfigs.htm
http://www.oneida-air.com/pdf/system%20price%20sheet%202004.pdf
Hope this helps,
John Sellers