OK, this is a bit of a rant. But it isn't political, and it IS about
woodworking tools. The recent thread on cordless drills got me
snooping around as I am on my backup now as another cordless just bit
the dust. So a replacement is on the to-do list.
I was looking around, and found these reviews (fanboys... please take
them for what they are worth) tonight. From 12/08:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_journal/tools/4292657.html
DON"T miss page two. I am wondering if Ryobi is actually getting
serious about making tools. Looking at their tests, the Ryobi did
embarrassingly well compared to "professional" type tools.
I was disappointed in my favorite brands, and I am not sure about
spending $350 on a cordless drill (add in tax before correcting me) to
get solid performance.
Speaking of disappointment, check this out:
http://tinyurl.com/yj5yexg
or if the wrap works -
http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/New+Tools+From+Porter+Cable.aspx
So.... PC now has a "serious DIY line". No wonder there have been so
damn many negative posts about this line of tools. Apparently at this
point they are only available at Lowe's, but that will probably be
just the start.
BUT gentle reader, go to paragraph six and read carefully to the end.
DeWalt is their professional line? Maybe a few models of a certain
tool. My luck with <some> DeWalt tools has been nothing but misery.
I have a 10" miter saw you could take from me at gunpoint, but broke 4
recip saws in two days before I switched brands. I loved my old 18v
DW compact drill and I worked it like a rented mule for about 4 years
before the first battery died, the second was weak, and then the
clutch stripped all at the same time. I got my money out of that bad
boy and about 25X more. But the last DeWalt cordless I bought I hated
so much for it's jumpy trigger and inconsistent batter performance I
took it back and bought a Makita. Every DW I looked at in the store
had that same crap trigger.
I still remember when you bought a tool based on reputation and it was
a solid piece of equipment that you got so used to working well on the
job that you were stunned when it didn't.
I think it is a sad mistake for B&D to put the PC brand on a sub par
piece of equipment. This will not only lead to model confusion, but
an indictment against all things PC as no one will remember the tool
model, just the fact that they tools didn't work. Don't those guys
remember what happened to the vaunted Rockwell brand when they sold it
to a mass marketer?
Don't they know their own history at B&D?
When B&D bought Skil, they ruined that brand. When they bought
DeWalt, the did the same, but not to the same extent. And you can
thank a joint partnership with Hitachi for all their strange looking
green tools; these are all over the map with their performance, mostly
mediocre.
While the upper end of PC is safe now, how long will it be before the
PC name goes the way of the other acquisitions? Not long I would say,
as a lot of folks that buy the Lowes PC models will think they are
getting old style PC quality at a great price. That will no doubt
encourage B&D to further whore out the name on other products to get a
bit more market share.
What a damn shame.
Robert
<[email protected]> wrote:
> When B&D bought Skil, they ruined that brand.
-----------------------------------------------------
Didn't realize B&D ever owned Skil, but by the 90's, with the
exception of the "77", the Skil product line was little more than
garbage.
It was my understanding that SB acquired the Skil package in the 90's
strictly for the "77".
Here in my part of SoCal, Skil & Bosch service centers which were less
than 5 miles apart and merged together within 90 days of the
acquisition.
Within a year, the most of the Skil crap was no longer on display in
the Bosch service center except for the "77" and a couple of circular
saws.
Today, Bosch has brought their version of the "77" to the market.
Lew
On Oct 22, 4:58 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> In recent years even before B&D got them I have not been impressed with
> anything that PC was turning out, especially their cordless drills. Take me
> back 15-20 years and it was my brand of choice.
I started losing interest in PC about 10 years ago. I could see that
their metal castings were rougher, their fit and finish wasn't as
good, and their tools weren't as well made. More and more of their
parts (if not the whole product) was made offshore. That in itself
isn't necessarily a bad thing, but if no one watches the production
line, the quality easily gets away from the manufacturer.
> This just in,, PC introduces worlds first job work site cordless coffee
> maker/ blender/ toaster combo.
LMAO... I am SURE that's coming.
> Did B&D buy Skil a long time ago? I was under the impression that
Bosch
> was still linked with Skil.
I strongly believe (as opposed to a fact) that they were associated
before Bosch bought Skil. The Bosch parent company retains Skil, but
without digging around I couldn't say when I read there was a
partnership with Skil and B&D.
> I currently have a corded DeWalt that looks like an old B&D drill that I
> bought for my BIL 18+ years ago. Also I have a B&D router that I bought in
> 1974 that seemed to change to a yellow color and flash a DeWalt badge on
> store shelves some 10-15 years later.
B&D used to make an industrial line of tools that were union made, all
from parts in the USA. When unions were at their peak, no tools that
weren't certified as made in USA were allowed on the job.
About 15 years ago I had an inspection contract for a company that was
monitoring construction of a large facility here in town. They were
so pissed off that I wasn't a union member they made me wear a
different color of hard hat than anyone else on the job! Hard core,
them boys was...
They had only a few PC tools, but mostly the B&D industrial line.
They all had black plastic cases with satin aluminum metal parts, and
a certification seal on them. The saws, some drills, and the large
routers were later changed to the DeWalt brand. Then the molds and
dies were shipped to other locations and made there, and assembled who
knows where. Every once in a while one of those old B&D industrial
tools will show up on Ebay. I don't know when they quit making the
all USA made industrial line.
You are completely correct about changing the color and badge, though.
> > thank a joint partnership with Hitachi for all their strange looking
> > green tools; these are all over the map with their performance, mostly
> > mediocre.
>
> Ok, I suspected that there was an outside influence, which tennis shoe
> company is it? '~)
Check this out:
http://www.blackanddecker.com/CustomerCenter/Company-Information.aspx
I don't know why they quit updating it, but it is an interesting read
if you like the history of business. Most folks don't understand just
how huge the B&d empire is these days. But seeing the history, it is
also a bit frightening to see how much B&D owns, all the way from
Baldwin locks to DeVilbiss spray equipment.
Their tools are just another disposable product made by their
company. It shows, too.
Now that you mention it, I will be keeping an eye out for a job site
toaster oven + hammer drill combo from PC. ;^)
Robert
On Oct 22, 5:04=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> OK, this is a bit of a rant. =A0But it isn't political, and it IS about
> woodworking tools. =A0The recent thread on cordless drills got me
> snooping around as I am on my backup now as another cordless just bit
> the dust. =A0So a replacement is on the to-do list.
>
> I was looking around, and found these reviews (fanboys... please take
> them for what they are worth) tonight. =A0From 12/08:
>
> http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_journal/tools/4292657.html
>
> DON"T miss page two. =A0I am wondering if Ryobi is actually getting
> serious about making tools. =A0Looking at their tests, the Ryobi did
> embarrassingly well compared to "professional" type tools.
>
> I was disappointed in my favorite brands, and I am not sure about
> spending $350 on a cordless drill (add in tax before correcting me) to
> get solid performance.
>
> Speaking of disappointment, check this out:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yj5yexg
>
> or if the wrap works -
>
> http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/New+Tools+From+Porter...
>
> So.... PC now has a "serious DIY line". =A0No wonder there have been so
> damn many negative posts about this line of tools. =A0Apparently at this
> point they are only available at Lowe's, but that will probably be
> just the start.
>
> BUT gentle reader, go to paragraph six and read carefully to the end.
> DeWalt is their professional line? =A0Maybe a few models of a certain
> tool. =A0My luck with <some> DeWalt tools has been nothing but misery.
>
> I have a 10" miter saw you could take from me at gunpoint, but broke 4
> recip saws in two days before I switched brands. =A0I loved my old 18v
> DW compact drill and I worked it like a rented mule for about 4 years
> before the first battery died, the second was weak, and then the
> clutch stripped all at the same time. =A0I got my money out of that bad
> boy and about 25X more. =A0But the last DeWalt cordless I bought I hated
> so much for it's jumpy trigger and inconsistent batter performance I
> took it back and bought a Makita. =A0Every DW I looked at in the store
> had that same crap trigger.
>
> I still remember when you bought a tool based on reputation and it was
> a solid piece of equipment that you got so used to working well on the
> job that you were stunned when it didn't.
>
> I think it is a sad mistake for B&D to put the PC brand on a sub par
> piece of equipment. =A0This will not only lead to model confusion, but
> an indictment against all things PC as no one will remember the tool
> model, just the fact that they tools didn't work. =A0Don't those guys
> remember what happened to the vaunted Rockwell brand when they sold it
> to a mass marketer?
>
> Don't they know their own history at B&D?
>
> When B&D bought Skil, they ruined that brand. =A0When they bought
> DeWalt, the did the same, but not to the same extent. =A0And you can
> thank a joint partnership with Hitachi for all their strange looking
> green tools; these are all over the map with their performance, mostly
> mediocre.
>
> While the upper end of PC is safe now, how long will it be before the
> PC name goes the way of the other acquisitions? =A0Not long I would say,
> as a lot of folks that buy the Lowes PC models will think they are
> getting old style PC quality at a great price. =A0 That will no doubt
> encourage B&D to further whore out the name on other products to get a
> bit more market share.
>
> What a damn shame.
>
> Robert
I really like my Bosch PS30. It has been a really useful addition to
my tool bag this year. It has lots of torque in the driving gear, and
plenty of RPM in the drilling gear.
I also have a Milwaukee 14.4 NiCd drill that I use for big stuff like
drilling into concrete, larger hole saws, or big forstner bits, but my
go-to hole shooter is the Bosch. Primarily because it fits in my tool
bag, and I can wield it one-handed in my tiny attic/crawlspace or
cabinet without wearing my arm out.
If I had to do it again, I'd probably look closer at the 12v Milwaukee
because of the additional tools (like the mini sawzall they have), or
the Ridgid but I wouldn't feel a bit disappointed if I wound up with
the Milwaukee again.
-Nathan
Robert,
I bought one of the $79 Ryobi 12 volt drills to keep in the shop while the
Dewalt and Bosch ride around in my service truck. I have been pleasantly
surprised by the Ryobi. It is a fantastic value.
Craig McCormick
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:47c68bec-bf41-47d9-be3d-4957c52b25de@o36g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> OK, this is a bit of a rant. But it isn't political, and it IS about
> woodworking tools. The recent thread on cordless drills got me
> snooping around as I am on my backup now as another cordless just bit
> the dust. So a replacement is on the to-do list.
>
> I was looking around, and found these reviews (fanboys... please take
> them for what they are worth) tonight. From 12/08:
>
> http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_journal/tools/4292657.html
>
> DON"T miss page two. I am wondering if Ryobi is actually getting
> serious about making tools. Looking at their tests, the Ryobi did
> embarrassingly well compared to "professional" type tools.
>
> I was disappointed in my favorite brands, and I am not sure about
> spending $350 on a cordless drill (add in tax before correcting me) to
> get solid performance.
>
> Speaking of disappointment, check this out:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yj5yexg
>
> or if the wrap works -
>
> http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/New+Tools+From+Porter+Cable.aspx
>
> So.... PC now has a "serious DIY line". No wonder there have been so
> damn many negative posts about this line of tools. Apparently at this
> point they are only available at Lowe's, but that will probably be
> just the start.
>
> BUT gentle reader, go to paragraph six and read carefully to the end.
> DeWalt is their professional line? Maybe a few models of a certain
> tool. My luck with <some> DeWalt tools has been nothing but misery.
>
> I have a 10" miter saw you could take from me at gunpoint, but broke 4
> recip saws in two days before I switched brands. I loved my old 18v
> DW compact drill and I worked it like a rented mule for about 4 years
> before the first battery died, the second was weak, and then the
> clutch stripped all at the same time. I got my money out of that bad
> boy and about 25X more. But the last DeWalt cordless I bought I hated
> so much for it's jumpy trigger and inconsistent batter performance I
> took it back and bought a Makita. Every DW I looked at in the store
> had that same crap trigger.
>
> I still remember when you bought a tool based on reputation and it was
> a solid piece of equipment that you got so used to working well on the
> job that you were stunned when it didn't.
>
> I think it is a sad mistake for B&D to put the PC brand on a sub par
> piece of equipment. This will not only lead to model confusion, but
> an indictment against all things PC as no one will remember the tool
> model, just the fact that they tools didn't work. Don't those guys
> remember what happened to the vaunted Rockwell brand when they sold it
> to a mass marketer?
>
> Don't they know their own history at B&D?
>
> When B&D bought Skil, they ruined that brand. When they bought
> DeWalt, the did the same, but not to the same extent. And you can
> thank a joint partnership with Hitachi for all their strange looking
> green tools; these are all over the map with their performance, mostly
> mediocre.
>
> While the upper end of PC is safe now, how long will it be before the
> PC name goes the way of the other acquisitions? Not long I would say,
> as a lot of folks that buy the Lowes PC models will think they are
> getting old style PC quality at a great price. That will no doubt
> encourage B&D to further whore out the name on other products to get a
> bit more market share.
>
> What a damn shame.
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>
>
>
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:47c68bec-bf41-47d9-be3d-4957c52b25de@o36g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> OK, this is a bit of a rant. But it isn't political, and it IS about
> woodworking tools. The recent thread on cordless drills got me
> snooping around as I am on my backup now as another cordless just bit
> the dust. So a replacement is on the to-do list.
>
> I was looking around, and found these reviews (fanboys... please take
> them for what they are worth) tonight. From 12/08:
>
> http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_journal/tools/4292657.html
>
> DON"T miss page two. I am wondering if Ryobi is actually getting
> serious about making tools. Looking at their tests, the Ryobi did
> embarrassingly well compared to "professional" type tools.
Hard to say here, I looked at the group and it seems like several writers
voiced their opinions with out each testing every drill. That was my
impression. The Milwaukee, incredibly light weight, yet is in the middle of
the pack as far as weight is concerned. The Ridgid and DeWalt each drove 41
and 33 d3" dry wall screws respectively and each got a "Bottom Line" of 4
red dots, what ever that means and then a Ryobi drove 3 times more and got
the same rating. I think there were different testers with different
expectations and they did not test all of the drills.
>
> I was disappointed in my favorite brands, and I am not sure about
> spending $350 on a cordless drill (add in tax before correcting me) to
> get solid performance.
>
> Speaking of disappointment, check this out:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yj5yexg
In recent years even before B&D got them I have not been impressed with
anything that PC was turning out, especially their cordless drills. Take me
back 15-20 years and it was my brand of choice.
This just in,, PC introduces worlds first job work site cordless coffee
maker/ blender/ toaster combo.
Snip
>
> When B&D bought Skil, they ruined that brand. When they bought
> DeWalt, the did the same, but not to the same extent.
Did B&D buy Skil a long time ago? I was under the impression that Bosch
was still linked with Skil. And I was under the impression since the 70's
that B&D and DeWalt had been linked for some time. Although I think DeWalt
was strictly the big tools but do recall when DeWalt started building
smaller and bench top tools that looked "exactly" like the B&D tools. I
currently have a corded DeWalt that looks like an old B&D drill that I
bought for my BIL 18+ years ago. Also I have a B&D router that I bought in
1974 that seemed to change to a yellow color and flash a DeWalt badge on
store shelves some 10-15 years later.
And you can
> thank a joint partnership with Hitachi for all their strange looking
> green tools; these are all over the map with their performance, mostly
> mediocre.
Ok, I suspected that there was an outside influence, which tennis shoe
company is it? '~)
On Oct 22, 12:41=A0pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> AFAIK there never was any and neither company's history information
> gives any indication that it was ever so.
>
> That doesn't say you didn't read it somewhere; only that probably the
> source wasn't correct... :)
*chuckle*
Well, the farther I get along the spongier the old gray matter seems
to get. I appreciate getting the benefit of the doubt.
I actually think that article I read said that (like the Hitachi deal)
they were just manufacturing for Skil. Of course, that could be
something that was stuck in the spongy part..... ;^)
Robert
On 10/22/2009 03:04 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> DON"T miss page two. I am wondering if Ryobi is actually getting
> serious about making tools. Looking at their tests, the Ryobi did
> embarrassingly well compared to "professional" type tools.
One comment that I've heard is that the gears in some of the "homeowner"
grade tools are plastic instead of metal. This isn't an issue for most
people, but for day-in-day-out use they could wear out faster.
On the other hand, the huge number of drills sold allows for pretty good
economies of scale, letting them spend some time on powertrain design.
For an occasional-use tool the Ryobi is probably just fine...and it's
hard to beat the price.
There are some ergonomics issues though. Compared to the Makita the
balance tends to be not quite as good, and the handle isn't as
comfortable. Compared to the non-hammer version of the Makita the Ryobi
drill/driver body is longer, which could cause problems in areas with
limited access.
Right now Amazon has a Makita driver/impact combo pack for $300.
Incredible deal...I'd buy it myself if they'd ship to Canada.
http://www.amazon.com/Makita-LXT211-18-Volt-Lithium-Ion-Cordless/dp/B001DN1T6M/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1256235454&sr=8-8
Chris
Leon wrote:
...
> Did B&D buy Skil a long time ago? I was under the impression that Bosch
> was still linked with Skil.
No, and yes...
> Founded in 1924, Skil Power Tools features more than 50 tools for
> do-it-yourselfers and cost-conscious professionals. Our legendary No. 77
> Skilsaw, the benchmark of portable electric circular saws, can be found
> on virtually every construction site in the U.S. and is recognized as
> one of the main tools that helped build America.
>
> Skil has been an international supplier of power tools since 1960 and
> has achieved ISO 9002 certification at all manufacturing facilities. In
> 1992, Skil entered into a joint venture with Robert Bosch, forming the
> S-B Power Tool Company, a subsidiary of the Bosch group and an
> international leader in the portable and benchtop power tool market. The
> Robert Bosch Tool Corporation is headquartered in Mt. Prospect, IL.
> ...And I was under the impression since the 70's
> that B&D and DeWalt had been linked for some time. ...
Actually, that would have been 1960...
<http://www.bdk.com/Timeline2007.pdf>
--
[email protected] wrote:
> So.... PC now has a "serious DIY line". No wonder there have been so
> damn many negative posts about this line of tools. Apparently at this
> point they are only available at Lowe's, but that will probably be
> just the start.
> While the upper end of PC is safe now, how long will it be before the
> PC name goes the way of the other acquisitions? Not long I would say,
> as a lot of folks that buy the Lowes PC models will think they are
> getting old style PC quality at a great price. That will no doubt
> encourage B&D to further whore out the name on other products to get a
> bit more market share.
>
> What a damn shame.
>
> Robert
I bought one of those PC cordless from Lowes only because my 7 year old PC
was stolen. It lasted about 3 weeks before the reverse/forward switch
stopped working. Took it to my local tool supplier and they said they would
not fix it even though they are a PC authorized dealer/service center. Said
those drills sold at Lowes are discontinued and can't get the parts they
need to repair them. Matter of fact this store does not even sell PC Drills
but does still sell the upper end PC stuff.
This is what I ended up getting from the dealer, 18 volt Dewalt
hammer/drill/driver and the associated circular saw. Good deal for me and
have only good things to say about Tool R Us and Dewalt. When going through
this ordeal, I had bought a new Makita which I'm more than happy with. Like
the Dewalt but it's much heavier than the Makita. BTW I use these drills
everyday and use that old PC the same way. Loved the old ones but would not
touch the new ones.
Black and Decker will eventually destroy Dewalt and has already destroyed PC
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/
[email protected] wrote:
...
> I strongly believe (as opposed to a fact) that they were associated
> before Bosch bought Skil. The Bosch parent company retains Skil, but
> without digging around I couldn't say when I read there was a
> partnership with Skil and B&D.
...
AFAIK there never was any and neither company's history information
gives any indication that it was ever so.
That doesn't say you didn't read it somewhere; only that probably the
source wasn't correct... :)
--
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> When B&D bought Skil, they ruined that brand.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Didn't realize B&D ever owned Skil, ...
They didn't.
--