Question about cabinets

Hi Jim,

This is very coincidental since we just had granite
installed over our 16 year old oak cabinets. Before
they came to template, I reinforced & leveled evrything
in our kitchen (about 70 sq ft of granite). I screwed
2x4 to the back walls & put 3/4 sheets of plywood
next to every cabinet I could access.

More to the point of your question, the joint around
the dishwaher probably "failed" because of vibration.
Typically, they tap in some brass sinkers after hammer-
drilling a hole into the granite, then screw in the diswasher
flange. I can see that if this were anchored in both sides
of a joint, that the vibration would cause the epoxy to fail
after time.

Our joint did not occur in this location, but when I questioned
our installer about it, he suggested that if we did opt to put
the joint in that location, it would be a good idea to span the
distance (cabinet to cabinet) with wood & then anchor the dishwasher
to the wood and not the granite.

Just a few thoughts for you.

Lou

> Not quite. Most granites are the 170lb/cu ft range; a 3 cm slab weighs
> between 16 and 17 lbs per square foot. Still damn heavy.

This is about right. It took 3 pretty big guys to lug in our
66 x 36 x 1 1/4 granite top. I guess about 250 lb or so.

Make sure your cabinets are beefed up (not to mention
your floor).

Lou

Swingman wrote:
>
> "ohaya" wrote in message
> >
> > I'm kind of curious if this (raising the cabinet slightly) is even
> possible?
> > Aren't the cabinets mounted to the walls/studs in the back?
> >
> > In any event, how can this be done?
> >
> > Like I said, this may be a dumb question.
>
> Nothing dumb about it, except maybe in the event you take too much advice at
> long range without a healthy dose of salt.
>
> The granite is usually glued to a substrate, the substrate is general
> screwed, from the granite side, to the cabinet corner braces ... kind of
> hard to get to them to do any shimming of the granite, which would be the
> easier solution.
>
> JAW had the best troubleshooting post thus far.
>
> If the cabinets settled, there should be room for them to go back up, but
> you need to find out "why" before you decide "how" ... it could be something
> as simple as weather changes, or as complicated as a crack in the
> foundation.
>
> There are way too many variables to make a guess ... you need to get someone
> locally involved, preferably someone you trust and with references.


Hi,

Thanks everybody!

I'll try to answer/comment on some items in one post initially.

As to why they didn't try to shim the countertop, he said that he didn't
like to do that, but after tying to shim under the cabinet bottom and
failing, he took a look anyway. He said that the builder had put some
kind of adhesive or glue, and the countertops were basically stuck to
the top of the (wooden) cabinets. So he said now the only way would be
to raise the cabinet slightly (thus my original post).

We're kind of curious why his is happening also, and so was he. Turns
out that (believe it or not) he's a geological engineer, and he said
that he'd never seen this happen before.

The thing that is puzzling is that we have ceramic tile on our kitchen
floor, and that has concrete board (I think that's what you call it)
under it, and there's no sign of shifting or cracking at all there. In
other words, it looks like the floor itself hasn't shifted.

I don't know if this is possible, but my wife was kind of theorizing
that the cabinet itself may've compressed (i.e., the cabinets "got
shorter").

We're trying to get a carpenter or someone to try to shim the cabinet up
(again, it's very slight... I don't think it is even 1/16"), and the
granite guy said that they'd send a couple of people over to re-epoxy
the joint.

BTW, I'm assuming that when they do the shimming, they would have to
re-screw the screws into different places, not into the same holes,
right?

Thanks,
Jim

RemodGuy wrote:
>Where are you getting your granite?!?

I'm glad you axed that question. The last bits 'n pieces I
got were directed through Carrera, Italy (1). In fact I
"had" to go there for final selections of the material
before it was fabricated. The things I have to do for my
employer? Sheesh!

(1) The stone comes from all around the globe and shipped
to Carrera in blocks where it is sawed into slabs, cut to
size and fabricated. Carrera is also where Michelangelo
apprenticed in the quarries (cavas) and eventually where he
(Michelangelo) took the marble to carve the statue of David.
Just say (tmPL), being/standing in/on/around the same spot
as Michelangelo once/mighta stood can/will/should give you
the goosie bumps. Then again, maybe it was just me.

UA100, who will say, if you get a chance to visit Italy,
jump on it...

How about just shimming the granite where it meets the top of the cabinet.
Seems a lot simpler than trying to riase the cabinets.

Todd L

"ohaya" <ohaya_NO_SPAM@NO_SPAM_cox.net> wrote in message
news:QEWgc.8753$55.2971@lakeread02...
> Hi,
>
> I hope that this is an appropriate place to post this question, and that
the
> question is not too stupid.... Apologies otherwise.
>
> We have granite countertops in our kitchen, and about 2 months ago, we
> noticed that at one of the joints, (about the dishwasher), one side of the
> countertop was just slightly higher than the other.
>
> We had a granite company come and take a look at it to try to fix it, and
> they said that actually one side was slightly lower than the other. Mind
> you, our house is about 7 years old, and this only happened recently. He
> said that to fix it, he'd try to lift the cabinet slightly (about 1/16")
> with shims, but he wasn't able to do it. He suggested that we have
someone
> who was a carpenter do it.
>
> I'm kind of curious if this (raising the cabinet slightly) is even
possible?
> Aren't the cabinets mounted to the walls/studs in the back?
>
> In any event, how can this be done?
>
> Like I said, this may be a dumb question.
>
> Sorry.
>
> Jim
>
>

"Mike G" wrote in message
> Granite 168 LB's per cubic foot

That coincides nicely with the formula in my previous post for estimating
granite countertop weights: (cubic inches X .097) = 167.6 Lbs cf. Weight
does vary according to type. IIRC, the black granite, which is popular these
days, is denser and runs in excess of 180 lbs cf.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/13/04

Just offhand And with little or no knowledge regarding countertops I did use
some caulking to seat some marble counter tops .I used cauking to even the
load in case of irregularities in the base . If they used the same
technique, and I am sure it is not standard, then some settling may have
occured ....mjh

--
http://members.tripod.com/mikehide2
"ohaya" <ohaya_NO_SPAM@NO_SPAM_cox.net> wrote in message
news:QEWgc.8753$55.2971@lakeread02...
> Hi,
>
> I hope that this is an appropriate place to post this question, and that
the
> question is not too stupid.... Apologies otherwise.
>
> We have granite countertops in our kitchen, and about 2 months ago, we
> noticed that at one of the joints, (about the dishwasher), one side of the
> countertop was just slightly higher than the other.
>
> We had a granite company come and take a look at it to try to fix it, and
> they said that actually one side was slightly lower than the other. Mind
> you, our house is about 7 years old, and this only happened recently. He
> said that to fix it, he'd try to lift the cabinet slightly (about 1/16")
> with shims, but he wasn't able to do it. He suggested that we have
someone
> who was a carpenter do it.
>
> I'm kind of curious if this (raising the cabinet slightly) is even
possible?
> Aren't the cabinets mounted to the walls/studs in the back?
>
> In any event, how can this be done?
>
> Like I said, this may be a dumb question.
>
> Sorry.
>
> Jim
>
>

"Kentucky Highlander" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > I don't know if this is possible, but my wife was kind of theorizing
> > > that the cabinet itself may've compressed (i.e., the cabinets "got
> > > shorter").
> >
> > She might not be too far off. A good guess is that the original
installer
> > used softwood shims to level the cabinets and the shims may have
> compressed
> > with age ... a not uncommon occurence.
>
> You mentioned that it is near the dishwasher, I presume also near the
sink,
> could you have had a leak or gotten water on the floor sometime in the
last
> year or so?
> The reason I ask this is that a lot of cabinets are made from MDF like
> material now and the least bit of moisture can make a mess of them.
>
>

Kentucky,

What is "MDF"?

Funny you should mention the water on the floor, but we actually did find a
leak from the dishwasher.

When you said "make a mess", what did you mean? You mean the "MDF" would
fall apart?

I'm going to have a hard time explaining this, but part of the floor in the
area where the dishwasher was is tiled with ceramic tile, probably about
1/8" to 1/4" thick, and the cabinets are sitting on the tiled area, not on
the concrete board directly.

The leak was onto the concrete area, so I think (thankfully) that the water
didn't directly contact the cabinet bottoms.

Jim

"loutent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:190420041959211685%[email protected]...
> Hi Jim,
>
> This is very coincidental since we just had granite
> installed over our 16 year old oak cabinets. Before
> they came to template, I reinforced & leveled evrything
> in our kitchen (about 70 sq ft of granite). I screwed
> 2x4 to the back walls & put 3/4 sheets of plywood
> next to every cabinet I could access.
>
> More to the point of your question, the joint around
> the dishwaher probably "failed" because of vibration.
> Typically, they tap in some brass sinkers after hammer-
> drilling a hole into the granite, then screw in the diswasher
> flange. I can see that if this were anchored in both sides
> of a joint, that the vibration would cause the epoxy to fail
> after time.
>
> Our joint did not occur in this location, but when I questioned
> our installer about it, he suggested that if we did opt to put
> the joint in that location, it would be a good idea to span the
> distance (cabinet to cabinet) with wood & then anchor the dishwasher
> to the wood and not the granite.
>
> Just a few thoughts for you.
>
> Lou

Lou,

Thanks, and very coincidental.

The joint in question is actually just to the right (facing the wall) of the
right-side of where the dishwasher was. It's kind of strange, because there
is absolutely now support for the granite over the dishwasher... it's just
cantilevered.

The arrangement is (again, facing the wall, and not to-scale):

joint
|
V
================= ============= <-- Granite
|-----| | ---------|
sink --- dishwasher - corner - etc.

Looking at he above, the countertop on the left is slightly higher than the
part on the right.

I actually thought that the left part had "risen", but the granite guy was
100% sure that wasn't the case, and that instead, it was the part on the
right that had lowered (he checked with a bubble-type level).

Like I said, it was kind of funny (in the sense of strange) because he was
really curious about this, being a geological engineer. He was kind of
guessing that it might've been caused by some undetected earthquake. I was
kind of joking with him that he was probably sensitized to this because he
was from Turkey :). We're in Virginia, so I don't know if this is even
remotely possible, though I recall there was a small one either here or in
Maryland a few years back.

Anyway, we'll talk to the carpenter about the screws. I guess I'd feel
better myself if they put new ones in new locations.

Thanks,
Jim

"ohaya" wrote in message
>
> I'm kind of curious if this (raising the cabinet slightly) is even
possible?
> Aren't the cabinets mounted to the walls/studs in the back?
>
> In any event, how can this be done?
>
> Like I said, this may be a dumb question.

Nothing dumb about it, except maybe in the event you take too much advice at
long range without a healthy dose of salt.

The granite is usually glued to a substrate, the substrate is general
screwed, from the granite side, to the cabinet corner braces ... kind of
hard to get to them to do any shimming of the granite, which would be the
easier solution.

JAW had the best troubleshooting post thus far.

If the cabinets settled, there should be room for them to go back up, but
you need to find out "why" before you decide "how" ... it could be something
as simple as weather changes, or as complicated as a crack in the
foundation.

There are way too many variables to make a guess ... you need to get someone
locally involved, preferably someone you trust and with references.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/13/04

Swingman wrote...
> > I have never seen that. All the tops I put in are full 1
> > 1/4" thick. They are heavy as all hell, but haven't had one fall
> > through the floor into the basement yet.
>
> I'd rough guess in the neighborhood of 30+ pounds a s/f?
>

Not quite. Most granites are the 170lb/cu ft range; a 3 cm slab weighs
between 16 and 17 lbs per square foot. Still damn heavy.

Jim

"ohaya" wrote in message

> The thing that is puzzling is that we have ceramic tile on our kitchen
> floor, and that has concrete board (I think that's what you call it)
> under it, and there's no sign of shifting or cracking at all there. In
> other words, it looks like the floor itself hasn't shifted.

If there is not other indication of a shift, or crack, in the slab of
foundation, that's more than likely good news.

>
> I don't know if this is possible, but my wife was kind of theorizing
> that the cabinet itself may've compressed (i.e., the cabinets "got
> shorter").

She might not be too far off. A good guess is that the original installer
used softwood shims to level the cabinets and the shims may have compressed
with age ... a not uncommon occurence.

>
> We're trying to get a carpenter or someone to try to shim the cabinet up
> (again, it's very slight... I don't think it is even 1/16"), and the
> granite guy said that they'd send a couple of people over to re-epoxy
> the joint.
>
> BTW, I'm assuming that when they do the shimming, they would have to
> re-screw the screws into different places, not into the same holes,
> right?

Maybe not ... if it moved down, hopefully it will move back up the same
distance again without having to unfasten it from the wall.

Good luck ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/13/04

"RemodGuy" wrote in message
> Where are you getting your granite?!?

?1? ... Locally, mostly stone and marble yards.

> I've had a few hundred granite
> tops installed by almost a dozen different fabricaters and have NEVER
> seen one glued to a substrate and screwed to the cabinet. you are
> thinking of other solid surface materials.

I think you may have misunderstood, I was not describing the sequence of
events of the installation, merely remarking that it may be difficult to
shim the granite afer installtion, which apparently turned out to be true..

Around here the decking/substrate _is_ screwed to the cabinet, the granite
_is_ shimmed level and _is_ glued to the PREVIOUSLY screwed down
decking/substrate, usually with Laticrete 310.

Feel better?

Wilson Art Gibralter is
> fabricated in this manner - but it is NOT granite.

Agreed, that, it is NOT...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/13/04


> > The granite is usually glued to a substrate, the substrate is general
> > screwed, from the granite side, to the cabinet corner braces ... kind of
> > hard to get to them to do any shimming of the granite, which would be
the
> > easier solution.

ohaya wrote:

>
> "Kentucky Highlander" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> > >
>> > > I don't know if this is possible, but my wife was kind of theorizing
>> > > that the cabinet itself may've compressed (i.e., the cabinets "got
>> > > shorter").
>> >
>> > She might not be too far off. A good guess is that the original
> installer
>> > used softwood shims to level the cabinets and the shims may have
>> compressed
>> > with age ... a not uncommon occurence.
>>
>> You mentioned that it is near the dishwasher, I presume also near the
> sink,
>> could you have had a leak or gotten water on the floor sometime in the
> last
>> year or so?
>> The reason I ask this is that a lot of cabinets are made from MDF like
>> material now and the least bit of moisture can make a mess of them.
>>
>>
>
> Kentucky,
>
> What is "MDF"?
>
> Funny you should mention the water on the floor, but we actually did find
> a leak from the dishwasher.
>
> When you said "make a mess", what did you mean? You mean the "MDF" would
> fall apart?
>
> I'm going to have a hard time explaining this, but part of the floor in
> the area where the dishwasher was is tiled with ceramic tile, probably
> about 1/8" to 1/4" thick, and the cabinets are sitting on the tiled area,
> not on the concrete board directly.
>
> The leak was onto the concrete area, so I think (thankfully) that the
> water didn't directly contact the cabinet bottoms.

If there's enough leak to be noticeable, it's quite possible that enough got
into the MDF to make it lose its integrity. Doesn't take a lot of
water--I've seen MDF swell just from seepage around the edge-banding after
I spilled a can of soda (blasted cheap computer table--it's on my list but
low priority).


--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Where are you getting your granite?!? I've had a few hundred granite
tops installed by almost a dozen different fabricaters and have NEVER
seen one glued to a substrate and screwed to the cabinet. you are
thinking of other solid surface materials. Wilson Art Gibralter is
fabricated in this manner - but it is NOT granite.

> The granite is usually glued to a substrate, the substrate is general
> screwed, from the granite side, to the cabinet corner braces ... kind of
> hard to get to them to do any shimming of the granite, which would be the
> easier solution.

>
> I think you may have misunderstood,

I think so too



> I was not describing the sequence of
> events of the installation, merely remarking that it may be difficult to
> shim the granite afer installtion, which apparently turned out to be true..

So are you saying that your granite is only 3/4" thick with a built up
edge similar to a blank for a mica top? A substrate is then screwed
to the cabinets and the built up edge treatment conceals this
substrate? I have never seen that. All the tops I put in are full 1
1/4" thick. They are heavy as all hell, but haven't had one fall
through the floor into the basement yet.

>
> I'd rough guess in the neighborhood of 30+ pounds a s/f?

I'm guessing only about 1/2 that. maybe 2/3. like I said, havent had
one fall through floor into basement.... yet......

> >
> > I don't know if this is possible, but my wife was kind of theorizing
> > that the cabinet itself may've compressed (i.e., the cabinets "got
> > shorter").
>
> She might not be too far off. A good guess is that the original installer
> used softwood shims to level the cabinets and the shims may have
compressed
> with age ... a not uncommon occurence.

You mentioned that it is near the dishwasher, I presume also near the sink,
could you have had a leak or gotten water on the floor sometime in the last
year or so?
The reason I ask this is that a lot of cabinets are made from MDF like
material now and the least bit of moisture can make a mess of them.

Todd, that does seem like the obvious solution, huh? Wonder
why the granite guys didn't think of that?? :) That's how a
slate pool table top is leveled; the pieces are shimmed
until level.

dave

Todd L wrote:

> How about just shimming the granite where it meets the top of the cabinet.
> Seems a lot simpler than trying to riase the cabinets.
>
> Todd L
>
> "ohaya" <ohaya_NO_SPAM@NO_SPAM_cox.net> wrote in message
> news:QEWgc.8753$55.2971@lakeread02...
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I hope that this is an appropriate place to post this question, and that
>
> the
>
>>question is not too stupid.... Apologies otherwise.
>>
>>We have granite countertops in our kitchen, and about 2 months ago, we
>>noticed that at one of the joints, (about the dishwasher), one side of the
>>countertop was just slightly higher than the other.
>>
>>We had a granite company come and take a look at it to try to fix it, and
>>they said that actually one side was slightly lower than the other. Mind
>>you, our house is about 7 years old, and this only happened recently. He
>>said that to fix it, he'd try to lift the cabinet slightly (about 1/16")
>>with shims, but he wasn't able to do it. He suggested that we have
>
> someone
>
>>who was a carpenter do it.
>>
>>I'm kind of curious if this (raising the cabinet slightly) is even
>
> possible?
>
>>Aren't the cabinets mounted to the walls/studs in the back?
>>
>>In any event, how can this be done?
>>
>>Like I said, this may be a dumb question.
>>
>>Sorry.
>>
>>Jim
>>
>>
>
>
>

Jim;

From all the times I have done this, seen it done, and watched someone
else do it, the cabinets are usually mounted to the wall and the other
cabintes (if there are modular). Also around the mounting points there
may be some existing shims, in order to true up the cabinets level and
plumb. Hopefully this connection points were done with screws and you
will just have to back them out, re-shim and screw put them back in. If
these are not modular cabinets, and are built-ins instead, then the
process if adjusting them is a whole lot harder. Also be on the lookout
for any plumbing or electrical lines that may be affected by the
movement of the cabinets.

It is also interesting that new construction (7 years old) had this
much noticable settling. I know settling is something that happens and I
am not bad-mouthing the original builder. I would investigate into the
cause of the settling. Even though this is showing up now, this could be
a onging problem and you will be readjusting the cabinets again or
something else in the future. Look at the door jambs, windows, where the
walls meet the ceiling, at the baseboards, for other signs of settling.
Solve the potential problem first and then go back and solve the symptoms.

HTH
JAW


ohaya wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I hope that this is an appropriate place to post this question, and that the
> question is not too stupid.... Apologies otherwise.
>
> We have granite countertops in our kitchen, and about 2 months ago, we
> noticed that at one of the joints, (about the dishwasher), one side of the
> countertop was just slightly higher than the other.
>
> We had a granite company come and take a look at it to try to fix it, and
> they said that actually one side was slightly lower than the other. Mind
> you, our house is about 7 years old, and this only happened recently. He
> said that to fix it, he'd try to lift the cabinet slightly (about 1/16")
> with shims, but he wasn't able to do it. He suggested that we have someone
> who was a carpenter do it.
>
> I'm kind of curious if this (raising the cabinet slightly) is even possible?
> Aren't the cabinets mounted to the walls/studs in the back?
>
> In any event, how can this be done?
>
> Like I said, this may be a dumb question.
>
> Sorry.
>
> Jim
>
>

"RemodGuy" wrote in message
> >
> > I'd rough guess in the neighborhood of 30+ pounds a s/f?
>
> I'm guessing only about 1/2 that. maybe 2/3. like I said, havent had
> one fall through floor into basement.... yet......

You're absolutely right ... my head math was off. IIRC, the rule-of-thumb
formula I picked up at some point along the way for the estimating the
weight of granite was .097 of the cubic inches. I don't know if that is
standard or not, but it seems to get you in the ball park.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/13/04

RemodGuy wrote:
>So are you saying that your granite is only 3/4" thick with a built up
>edge similar to a blank for a mica top? A substrate is then screwed
>to the cabinets and the built up edge treatment conceals this
>substrate? I have never seen that. All the tops I put in are full 1
>1/4" thick. They are heavy as all hell, but haven't had one fall
>through the floor into the basement yet.


This is dependent on where you are and the prevailing prices
of materials and labor. Areas where labor is inexpensive
will use thinner material (2cm/3/4") and pay to have someone
laminate a drop edge on. Where labor is higher it pays to
buy thicker material (3cm/1 1/4") and not have to hassle
with the laminated edge.

Once upon a time laminated edges were done all the time.
Now the tendency is to see 3cm/1 1/4" a lot. Personally I
like the look of the 3cm but it makes for a different
cabinet detail, i.e., you have to jump through some hoops a
little, to hide/bury the plywood sub-top.

UA100

I'd have to opine that the bit of advice you received and I left tack on
below is about the best you can get on the subject.

The variables that could have caused the problem are numerous and the
possible fixes can be nothing but guesses without a physical inspection of
the lay out.

I would also opine that I would not whole heatedly embrace the granite
company's "it ain't me" pronouncement until you have a qualified and
unbiased pro look at the whole problem and you have a firm understanding of
who was/is responsible for what.

These kind of things can go round and round between main contractors, sub
contractors, suppliers, installers, and whoever until you are totally fed up
with the whole process and wish you'd never seen the counter tops.
--
Mike G.
[email protected]
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> There are way too many variables to make a guess ... you need to get
someone
> locally involved, preferably someone you trust and with references.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/13/04
>
>

"RemodGuy" wrote in message
> >
> > I think you may have misunderstood,
>
> I think so too

> > I was not describing the sequence of
> > events of the installation, merely remarking that it may be difficult to
> > shim the granite afer installtion, which apparently turned out to be
true..
>
> So are you saying that your granite is only 3/4" thick with a built up
> edge similar to a blank for a mica top? A substrate is then screwed
> to the cabinets and the built up edge treatment conceals this
> substrate?

Yep ... I'd bet that the vast majority of the granite countertop
installations on traditional style cabinets done hereabouts are 3/4" slab
with an edge treatment that brings the visible edge to 1 1/2".

I have never seen that. All the tops I put in are full 1
> 1/4" thick. They are heavy as all hell, but haven't had one fall
> through the floor into the basement yet.

I'd rough guess in the neighborhood of 30+ pounds a s/f?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/13/04

Granite 168 LB's per cubic foot

--
Mike G.
[email protected]
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "RemodGuy" wrote in message
> > >
> > > I'd rough guess in the neighborhood of 30+ pounds a s/f?
> >
> > I'm guessing only about 1/2 that. maybe 2/3. like I said, havent had
> > one fall through floor into basement.... yet......
>
> You're absolutely right ... my head math was off. IIRC, the rule-of-thumb
> formula I picked up at some point along the way for the estimating the
> weight of granite was .097 of the cubic inches. I don't know if that is
> standard or not, but it seems to get you in the ball park.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/13/04
>
>