Leon, Swingy: this one's for you:
NEW from THISisCarpentry:
"Festool Training Class" by Matt Follett.
"What do a real estate agent, a dentist, an architect, a couple of
woodworkers, and a father/sons machinist trio have in common? They
were all attendees of the two-day Festool Cabinet Construction Class
that I was lucky enough to get into...."
Read the full article by visiting THISisCarpentry.com, or by clicking
the following direct link:
http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2012/02/17/festool-class-follett/
LJ sez: It's chock full o' green stripeded thangs.
--
A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner, so if
one's life is cold and bare he can blame none but himself.
-- Louis L'Amour
On Feb 18, 5:08=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Feb 2012 08:41:05 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
>
> >Parallel port? I thought everybody was doing the USB2 thang now. Which
>
> Gecko isn't. =A0And from what I've read, USB is generations slower than
> parallel when it comes to CNC flow.
>
My FlashCut software loads the entire file and USB2 is a nice reliable
way to retrieve the files.
>
> Even with the software, my cost will be half that of a Shopbot.
> A513 hot rolled steel from Online Metals looks to be $350 unless I can
> find it locally for less.
Hey, more power to you, let me know how you make out.
>
> Softwarewise, I went over to the dark side. =A0BobCAD made me an offer I
> couldn't refuse. =A0I bought a motor kit with BobCAD v21 Express in it
> and BobCAD talked me into going with a tutorial CD set, a copy of V24,
> and a crispy fresh new copy of BobART Pro. I saved about a grand and a
> half and when I asked how it compared to Aspire, he said "It's very
> similar, but I like BobArt Pro better." =A0I guess I'll see, and if I
> don't like it, I can always upgrade later to Aspire, which is what I
> preferred.
I know a few BobCAD users who are furiously saving up their coin for
Aspire. In the end, everything can be made to work, but I like
producing product without sweating all the software/hardware issues. I
was $4,000.00 short in income just because my box went for an upgrade.
Money can be made and lost very quickly with these machines. A couple
of toolpath errors can ruin a piece of pricy material real quickly,
being Corian, or walnut burl... or signfoam even. I do wish you
godspeed, bro' and happy build! <<the key to success, is a spindle, no
shortcut there.>>
>
> --
> The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
> is to fill the world with fools.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0-- Herbert Spe=
ncer
On Feb 18, 11:41=A0am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 18, 7:23=A0am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 18 Feb 2012 06:08:41 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >On 2/18/2012 12:20 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> > >> Leon, Swingy: this one's for you:
>
> > >> NEW from THISisCarpentry:
>
> > >> "Festool Training Class" by Matt Follett.
>
> > >> "What do a real estate agent, a dentist, an architect, a couple of
> > >> woodworkers, and a father/sons machinist trio have in common? They
> > >> were all attendees of the two-day Festool Cabinet Construction Class
> > >> that I was lucky enough to get into...."
>
> > >> Read the full article by visiting THISisCarpentry.com, or by clickin=
g
> > >> the following direct link:
>
> > >>http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2012/02/17/festool-class-follett/
>
> > >> LJ sez: It's chock full o' green stripeded thangs.
>
> > >They've been holding these things for quite a while, but always too fa=
r
> > >to walk to be carrying my Festoolies. ;0)
>
> > >Laughing aside, and considering what it costs to tool up for a 32mm
> > >cabinet shop - and the space to set it up in - Festool is waaaay less
> > >expensive by comparison.
>
> > >That's why so many operations load up on Festool ... you can do it
> > >onsite without a lot shop space and that constant, eroding, monthly,
> > >making-money-for-a-landlord, ongoing, overhead.
>
> > Yeah, I can see that it would.
>
> > >Keep poking fun of Festool, C_Less ... while some of us laugh all the
> > >way to the bank. :)
>
> > You do that! =A0My direction is a way other than as a cabinet shop, but
> > I have been bitten by the plunge saw bug, you bastids. Dina may be
> > replaced by a Makita SP6000K1 some day soon.
>
> > Parts have been pouring in from around the country this past week for
> > the CNC router build I'm planning. 4' x 4'. =A0It's a modified PDJ Pilo=
t
> > Pro.
>
> > Do you know how hard it is to get a new parallel port card for a new
> > computer? =A0None of the computer shops around town had one so I had to
> > eBay it.
>
> > --
> > The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
> > is to fill the world with fools.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0-- Herbert S=
pencer
>
> Parallel port? I thought everybody was doing the USB2 thang now. Which
> controller software will you be using, keeping in mind it is REALLY
> handy if Vectric supports the controller. The things which made me
> decide not to go the kit route, was support and compatibility. I
> already did some wild and wooly mods and departures, like going to
> FlashCut. I often read reports of home-builds costing close to proper
> units, say from ShopBot... assuming you want steel frames, solid power
> supplies for the drive motors. etc.
Oh, and C-less, do what you can to go to a spindle, you will NOT be
happy with a regular universal router motor. Even a 2HP spindle will
be a HUGE improvement over ANY router body.
On Feb 18, 7:23=A0am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Feb 2012 06:08:41 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On 2/18/2012 12:20 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> >> Leon, Swingy: this one's for you:
>
> >> NEW from THISisCarpentry:
>
> >> "Festool Training Class" by Matt Follett.
>
> >> "What do a real estate agent, a dentist, an architect, a couple of
> >> woodworkers, and a father/sons machinist trio have in common? They
> >> were all attendees of the two-day Festool Cabinet Construction Class
> >> that I was lucky enough to get into...."
>
> >> Read the full article by visiting THISisCarpentry.com, or by clicking
> >> the following direct link:
>
> >>http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2012/02/17/festool-class-follett/
>
> >> LJ sez: It's chock full o' green stripeded thangs.
>
> >They've been holding these things for quite a while, but always too far
> >to walk to be carrying my Festoolies. ;0)
>
> >Laughing aside, and considering what it costs to tool up for a 32mm
> >cabinet shop - and the space to set it up in - Festool is waaaay less
> >expensive by comparison.
>
> >That's why so many operations load up on Festool ... you can do it
> >onsite without a lot shop space and that constant, eroding, monthly,
> >making-money-for-a-landlord, ongoing, overhead.
>
> Yeah, I can see that it would.
>
> >Keep poking fun of Festool, C_Less ... while some of us laugh all the
> >way to the bank. :)
>
> You do that! =A0My direction is a way other than as a cabinet shop, but
> I have been bitten by the plunge saw bug, you bastids. Dina may be
> replaced by a Makita SP6000K1 some day soon.
>
> Parts have been pouring in from around the country this past week for
> the CNC router build I'm planning. 4' x 4'. =A0It's a modified PDJ Pilot
> Pro.
>
> Do you know how hard it is to get a new parallel port card for a new
> computer? =A0None of the computer shops around town had one so I had to
> eBay it.
>
> --
> The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
> is to fill the world with fools.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0-- Herbert Spe=
ncer
Parallel port? I thought everybody was doing the USB2 thang now. Which
controller software will you be using, keeping in mind it is REALLY
handy if Vectric supports the controller. The things which made me
decide not to go the kit route, was support and compatibility. I
already did some wild and wooly mods and departures, like going to
FlashCut. I often read reports of home-builds costing close to proper
units, say from ShopBot... assuming you want steel frames, solid power
supplies for the drive motors. etc.
On Feb 18, 9:31=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>
> <<the key to success, is a spindle, no shortcut there.>>
>
> 2 questions: =A0Why? =A0and What spindles do you recommend/why?
>
A
Many files, in particular 3D carvings, can have very long run-times.
The duty-cycle of a universal (brushed) isn't rated in hours. More
like minutes. Also, with a VFD controlling the spindle's speed, torque
distribution at the set RPM is a lot more uniform. Universal motors
don't 'lock' into a preset RPM. Then there are cooling and bearing
issues that spindles deal with handily but router bodies don't. And
then there's the noise difference. Very telling that spindles run at
those speeds much more comfortably is by the quietness of their
operation. Columbo, Elte and HSD are are pretty good brands. 2HP is
enough in most cases, IMHO. If you can afford it, 3HP is nice. When
you get into 5 HP, you're also upping the VFD expense. Also, the
bigger spindles require heftier tracks etc...
CNC-Zone has some cool discussion groups.
On Sat, 18 Feb 2012 07:02:46 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 2/18/2012 6:23 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Parts have been pouring in from around the country this past week for
>> the CNC router build I'm planning. 4' x 4'. It's a modified PDJ Pilot
>> Pro.
>>
>> Do you know how hard it is to get a new parallel port card for a new
>> computer? None of the computer shops around town had one so I had to
>> eBay it.
>
>That's amazing that a part once that ubiquitous would be hard to find.
Yeah, isn't it, though? $13 delivered, but it won't be here until
next week. they couldn't ship yesterday (too late) and aren't there
today to ship. Then Monday is a farkin' holiday. <grumble, grumble>
>CNC, eh? Now that is something I would like to get into in my old age. I
>envy Rob his already accomplished foray into that world.
Ditto. I've decided that it's time to get out of my current rut, so
it's off to CNC school I go. I've read a couple books so far, and
bought a set of plans which seemed to be the direction I wanted to
build, so I am poring over them.
I picked up a Hitachi M12VC and it arrived yesterday. It's a heavy
little beast for 2.25HP, but it's quiet and very smooth. The soft
start is great. You know what this green trim reminds me of, don't
you? <snort>
>The other thing that interests me, and along that line, is 3d printing.
Yes, that's interesting to me, too, but I don't see how I could put
one to practical use to earn a living. I still haven't figured out
what I want to be when I grow up.
>Years ago I made the remark that one day we would be able to digitize
>and store our "stuff" on a hard drive ... and just print it out when we
>needed it.
>
>Be damned if that time isn't here!
...and the old media turns out to be incompatible.
--
The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer
On 2/18/2012 6:23 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> Parts have been pouring in from around the country this past week for
> the CNC router build I'm planning. 4' x 4'. It's a modified PDJ Pilot
> Pro.
>
> Do you know how hard it is to get a new parallel port card for a new
> computer? None of the computer shops around town had one so I had to
> eBay it.
That's amazing that a part once that ubiquitous would be hard to find.
CNC, eh? Now that is something I would like to get into in my old age. I
envy Rob his already accomplished foray into that world.
The other thing that interests me, and along that line, is 3d printing.
Years ago I made the remark that one day we would be able to digitize
and store our "stuff" on a hard drive ... and just print it out when we
needed it.
Be damned if that time isn't here!
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 2/18/2012 12:20 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> Leon, Swingy: this one's for you:
>
> NEW from THISisCarpentry:
>
> "Festool Training Class" by Matt Follett.
>
> "What do a real estate agent, a dentist, an architect, a couple of
> woodworkers, and a father/sons machinist trio have in common? They
> were all attendees of the two-day Festool Cabinet Construction Class
> that I was lucky enough to get into...."
>
> Read the full article by visiting THISisCarpentry.com, or by clicking
> the following direct link:
>
> http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2012/02/17/festool-class-follett/
>
> LJ sez: It's chock full o' green stripeded thangs.
They've been holding these things for quite a while, but always too far
to walk to be carrying my Festoolies. ;0)
Laughing aside, and considering what it costs to tool up for a 32mm
cabinet shop - and the space to set it up in - Festool is waaaay less
expensive by comparison.
That's why so many operations load up on Festool ... you can do it
onsite without a lot shop space and that constant, eroding, monthly,
making-money-for-a-landlord, ongoing, overhead.
Keep poking fun of Festool, C_Less ... while some of us laugh all the
way to the bank. :)
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On Sat, 18 Feb 2012 16:47:47 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Feb 18, 5:08 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2012 08:41:05 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
>
>>
>> >Parallel port? I thought everybody was doing the USB2 thang now. Which
>>
>> Gecko isn't. And from what I've read, USB is generations slower than
>> parallel when it comes to CNC flow.
>>
>My FlashCut software loads the entire file and USB2 is a nice reliable
>way to retrieve the files.
My new computer has plenty of USB2 ports, but de Gecko, he wants
parallel.
>> Even with the software, my cost will be half that of a Shopbot.
>> A513 hot rolled steel from Online Metals looks to be $350 unless I can
>> find it locally for less.
>
>Hey, more power to you, let me know how you make out.
Will do. I'll likely hound you to death asking for tips and clues as
to how to do something or make something work.
>> Softwarewise, I went over to the dark side. BobCAD made me an offer I
>> couldn't refuse. I bought a motor kit with BobCAD v21 Express in it
>> and BobCAD talked me into going with a tutorial CD set, a copy of V24,
>> and a crispy fresh new copy of BobART Pro. I saved about a grand and a
>> half and when I asked how it compared to Aspire, he said "It's very
>> similar, but I like BobArt Pro better." I guess I'll see, and if I
>> don't like it, I can always upgrade later to Aspire, which is what I
>> preferred.
>
>I know a few BobCAD users who are furiously saving up their coin for
>Aspire. In the end, everything can be made to work, but I like
>producing product without sweating all the software/hardware issues. I
Absolutely; I would, too! I'm already having problems getting a
wireless connection up so I can download things from the shop on the
new comp. I finally got Internet but I can't see the other computer.
The homegroup wizard is outta juice, it would appear.
>was $4,000.00 short in income just because my box went for an upgrade.
>Money can be made and lost very quickly with these machines. A couple
>of toolpath errors can ruin a piece of pricy material real quickly,
>being Corian, or walnut burl... or signfoam even. I do wish you
>godspeed, bro' and happy build!
Danke mucho, monsieur.
<<the key to success, is a spindle, no shortcut there.>>
2 questions: Why? and What spindles do you recommend/why?
--
The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer
On Feb 21, 10:43=A0am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> >I stick to AluPanel for the 'aluminum look'.
> >http://www.multipaneluk.co.uk/products/sign-materials/alupanel/
> >That stuff is awesome.
>
> How is it used? Do you carve and paint it, or carve shapes/letters and
> glue them on?
>
Other than the brushed versions of AluPanel, the stuff is perfect for
outdoor letters.
Flat shapes in a large palette of colours and gloss. The back can be v-
carved to within the face foil and then folded as a box or beam. There
are v-bits made just for that. http://acmesignsupplies.com/file_library/pro=
ds/156_Belin%202008.pdf
The no-paint and durability makes it a good choice for letters to be
put on stand-offs on walls. Easy to cut as well and about $100.00 for
a 4' x 8' sheet x 0.125"
On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 07:12:28 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Feb 20, 10:31 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Nononono. I meant sawdust-type waste sucked into the DC.
>>
>Nothing special. Fill the drum(s) and dump them in the 6yd bucket.
Not enough to recycle, huh?
>> >Depends on what you're cutting and the quality of the bit, which makes
>> >sense.
>>
>> Figure a decent quality bit/insert bit.
>A $50.00 1/2" solid carbide spiral bit (end mill) is required for a
>clean cut in harder materials whilst a $5.00 straight bit will cut
>SignFoam all day long. The reverse, of course, is not true. So buy the
>best you can afford from a reputable supplier. The carbide.com
>catalogue has them all and their pricing is competitive.
Bueno.
>> Carving wood
>So much has to do with feed rates and RPM (stress and heat) and the
>type of wood that there really isn't even a ballpark. Carbide quality
>from one mfg to the next varies hugely as well.
>
>> Carving melamine/mdf
>Melamine is hard on cutters, MDF not as much. If you make sure you
>don't overheat the cutters, they will keep cutting MDF a long time.
>
>> Carving solid surface
>Somewhat depending on the brand, that shit is murder on bits. The
>smaller the bits, the more likely to melt/jam the bit in a blind cut.
>Chip removal is the key here. I usually price a new bit for each job.
>Can never be sharp enough. Profile bits, like ogees don't have much of
>a lifespan. I buy them on the Intarweb and treat them as disposables.
>
>> Carving HDU/foam board
>You can cut that stuff all day with HSS bits even. Repairs are easy in
>case of a screw-up. I use the retired bits (from Solid Surface etc).
Excellent tip.
>> Cutting acrylic/lexan
>Specialty 'Obits' will last a long time, but you'll never get a
>finished edge with which you'll be happy. The thinner stuff, which you
>can cut in one pass can look nice enough once you get your feed rates
>down. The stopping and starting of direction changes will set up
>wobbles which are hard to eliminate and you can't just slow down your
>feed rates as you run into the risk of melting/puddling/grabbing the
>spinning bit. Acrylics take a lot of practise, especially over 1/4"
>thick.
I've heard horror stories.
>> Cutting aluminum
>Same info as Solid Surface. Can be helped out a lot with lubricated
>mist and that gets messy.
>I stick to AluPanel for the 'aluminum look'.
>http://www.multipaneluk.co.uk/products/sign-materials/alupanel/
>That stuff is awesome.
How is it used? Do you carve and paint it, or carve shapes/letters and
glue them on?
>> Ballpark is OK.
>Even a ballpark is nigh impossible; too many variables.
>>
>Most of the choices come down to a per-job basis.
OK. Thanks for the info.
--
The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer
On Feb 20, 8:33=A0am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 19:32:33 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Feb 18, 9:31=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
> >wrote:
>
> >> <<the key to success, is a spindle, no shortcut there.>>
>
> >> 2 questions: =A0Why? =A0and What spindles do you recommend/why?
>
> >A
>
> >Many files, in particular 3D carvings, can have very long run-times.
> >The duty-cycle of a universal (brushed) isn't rated in hours. More
> >like minutes. Also, with a VFD controlling the spindle's speed, torque
> >distribution at the set RPM is a lot more uniform. Universal motors
> >don't 'lock' into a preset RPM. Then there are cooling and bearing
> >issues that spindles deal with handily but router bodies don't. And
> >then there's the noise difference. Very telling that spindles run at
> >those speeds much more comfortably is by the quietness of their
> >operation. Columbo, Elte and HSD are are pretty good brands. 2HP is
> >enough in most cases, IMHO. If you can afford it, 3HP is nice. When
> >you get into 5 HP, you're also upping the VFD expense. Also, the
> >bigger spindles require heftier tracks etc...
> >CNC-Zone has some cool discussion groups.
>
> So a spindle would also require a VFD? =A0ChaChing!
> How much quieter are they than the routers?
> I'm following CNC-Zone, Signs101, RouterForums, BobCADforums, etc.
> trying to get into the mood.
> What cutters do you find that you use most often, Rob?
>
> --
> The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
> is to fill the world with fools.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0-- Herbert Spe=
ncer
The spindles I am familiar with (with which I am familiar) are 3 phase
220 volt. The variable frequency allows speeds much higher than a
basic 2-pole 60 Hz induction motor would allow. 3600 RPM is the max
for a 2 pole 60 Hz and just too damned slow.
For a VFD driven spindle, mine goes from 8000 to 22000 RPM without
sacrificing power. Also, my VFD has programmable run-up speeds and
braking. When changing bits, often, the braking is a very nice
feature. Also, when changing bits, often, the collet and nut set-up on
a spindle is far more secure and 'professional' than the crap they
stick on regular routers. 1/2" shank is a must.
I don't have any numbers memorized in terms of 'quietness', but my
hunch is a solid -20dB down from a router, and I suspect much more.
The hum of my dust collector is much louder than the spindle. It is
relatively quiet, until the bit hits the material it is cutting. A
spiral upcut 1/4" bit entering the side of a 1/2" thick slab of Corian
at 50in/min@18,000RPM makes a lot of noise... carving a slab of cherry
with a 1/4" ballnose is barely audible.
Bit selection is simply too varied to have a 'stock' arsenal. There
are those you'll use all the time, at least I do, such as 1/4" spiral,
1/4" ballnose for rough carving, V-bits of varied angles (Insert bits
are highly recommended.) Then there are the umpteen different bits
just for different alupanel and plexiglass, (a different bit for
extruded acrylic vs cast acrylic) and so on and so on. Compression
bits are fun.
I price the bits I need into the job. If I already have it, good for
me.
On Sat, 18 Feb 2012 08:41:05 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Feb 18, 7:23 am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2012 06:08:41 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >On 2/18/2012 12:20 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> >> Leon, Swingy: this one's for you:
>>
>> >> NEW from THISisCarpentry:
>>
>> >> "Festool Training Class" by Matt Follett.
>>
>> >> "What do a real estate agent, a dentist, an architect, a couple of
>> >> woodworkers, and a father/sons machinist trio have in common? They
>> >> were all attendees of the two-day Festool Cabinet Construction Class
>> >> that I was lucky enough to get into...."
>>
>> >> Read the full article by visiting THISisCarpentry.com, or by clicking
>> >> the following direct link:
>>
>> >>http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2012/02/17/festool-class-follett/
>>
>> >> LJ sez: It's chock full o' green stripeded thangs.
>>
>> >They've been holding these things for quite a while, but always too far
>> >to walk to be carrying my Festoolies. ;0)
>>
>> >Laughing aside, and considering what it costs to tool up for a 32mm
>> >cabinet shop - and the space to set it up in - Festool is waaaay less
>> >expensive by comparison.
>>
>> >That's why so many operations load up on Festool ... you can do it
>> >onsite without a lot shop space and that constant, eroding, monthly,
>> >making-money-for-a-landlord, ongoing, overhead.
>>
>> Yeah, I can see that it would.
>>
>> >Keep poking fun of Festool, C_Less ... while some of us laugh all the
>> >way to the bank. :)
>>
>> You do that! My direction is a way other than as a cabinet shop, but
>> I have been bitten by the plunge saw bug, you bastids. Dina may be
>> replaced by a Makita SP6000K1 some day soon.
>>
>> Parts have been pouring in from around the country this past week for
>> the CNC router build I'm planning. 4' x 4'. It's a modified PDJ Pilot
>> Pro.
>>
>> Do you know how hard it is to get a new parallel port card for a new
>> computer? None of the computer shops around town had one so I had to
>> eBay it.
>>
>> --
>> The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
>> is to fill the world with fools.
>> -- Herbert Spencer
>
>Parallel port? I thought everybody was doing the USB2 thang now. Which
Gecko isn't. And from what I've read, USB is generations slower than
parallel when it comes to CNC flow.
>controller software will you be using, keeping in mind it is REALLY
>handy if Vectric supports the controller. The things which made me
>decide not to go the kit route, was support and compatibility. I
>already did some wild and wooly mods and departures, like going to
>FlashCut. I often read reports of home-builds costing close to proper
>units, say from ShopBot... assuming you want steel frames, solid power
>supplies for the drive motors. etc.
Even with the software, my cost will be half that of a Shopbot.
A513 hot rolled steel from Online Metals looks to be $350 unless I can
find it locally for less.
Softwarewise, I went over to the dark side. BobCAD made me an offer I
couldn't refuse. I bought a motor kit with BobCAD v21 Express in it
and BobCAD talked me into going with a tutorial CD set, a copy of V24,
and a crispy fresh new copy of BobART Pro. I saved about a grand and a
half and when I asked how it compared to Aspire, he said "It's very
similar, but I like BobArt Pro better." I guess I'll see, and if I
don't like it, I can always upgrade later to Aspire, which is what I
preferred.
--
The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer
On Feb 20, 10:31=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> Nononono. I meant sawdust-type waste sucked into the DC.
>
Nothing special. Fill the drum(s) and dump them in the 6yd bucket.
>
> >Depends on what you're cutting and the quality of the bit, which makes
> >sense.
>
> Figure a decent quality bit/insert bit.
A $50.00 1/2" solid carbide spiral bit (end mill) is required for a
clean cut in harder materials whilst a $5.00 straight bit will cut
SignFoam all day long. The reverse, of course, is not true. So buy the
best you can afford from a reputable supplier. The carbide.com
catalogue has them all and their pricing is competitive.
>
> Carving wood
So much has to do with feed rates and RPM (stress and heat) and the
type of wood that there really isn't even a ballpark. Carbide quality
from one mfg to the next varies hugely as well.
> Carving melamine/mdf
Melamine is hard on cutters, MDF not as much. If you make sure you
don't overheat the cutters, they will keep cutting MDF a long time.
> Carving solid surface
Somewhat depending on the brand, that shit is murder on bits. The
smaller the bits, the more likely to melt/jam the bit in a blind cut.
Chip removal is the key here. I usually price a new bit for each job.
Can never be sharp enough. Profile bits, like ogees don't have much of
a lifespan. I buy them on the Intarweb and treat them as disposables.
> Carving HDU/foam board
You can cut that stuff all day with HSS bits even. Repairs are easy in
case of a screw-up. I use the retired bits (from Solid Surface etc).
> Cutting acrylic/lexan
Specialty 'Obits' will last a long time, but you'll never get a
finished edge with which you'll be happy. The thinner stuff, which you
can cut in one pass can look nice enough once you get your feed rates
down. The stopping and starting of direction changes will set up
wobbles which are hard to eliminate and you can't just slow down your
feed rates as you run into the risk of melting/puddling/grabbing the
spinning bit. Acrylics take a lot of practise, especially over 1/4"
thick.
> Cutting aluminum
Same info as Solid Surface. Can be helped out a lot with lubricated
mist and that gets messy.
I stick to AluPanel for the 'aluminum look'.
http://www.multipaneluk.co.uk/products/sign-materials/alupanel/
That stuff is awesome.
>
> Ballpark is OK.
Even a ballpark is nigh impossible; too many variables.
>
Most of the choices come down to a per-job basis.
On Mon, 20 Feb 2012 13:39:30 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Feb 20, 2:23 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Feb 2012 09:50:12 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
>
>> Interesting. How do you deal with your waste? Do you have separate
>> cans for different materials, swapping them out from under a vortex
>> separator? The mixed fine dust would go to the waste stream and the
>> wood to recycling, I'm guessing.
>>
>I keep sq-ft pieces if the texture/pattern warrants it. Smaller if
>they're figured soapstone, exotic woods etc.
>SignFoam pieces can be glued together to make new ones, seamless (wavy
>bit, Gorilla glue).
Nononono. I meant sawdust-type waste sucked into the DC.
>> Insert bits? Do you have a toolchanger? Is the ballnose a milling
>> cutter?
>>
>Those are bits that take blades which take a preset position in a
>holder. like:
>http://www.carbide.com/catalog/RBits-insert-start.cfm
Oh, you meant it literally. OK. I thought it might be a specific
length, like jobber, for use in holders or special collets.
>The Ballnose could be called a milling cutter, again, another reason
>for high torque/slow speeds for use in some materials.
>>
>> Compression bits? Oh...http://tinyurl.com/6qzgmgk
>> EIGHTY SEVEN BUCKS APIECE? That's crazy.
>
>Hardly crazy. V-bits with a pack of inserts go for a lot more.
>Two-sided letters, laminated or melamine, shelves, etc. A very useful
>bit which can save a lot of work.
I only saw the solid carbide style, no inserts. Now I've seen diamond
bits at $252 apiece. <thud> I guess production shops need those to
stay productive.
>> What kind of bit life do you get on the various materials? Is it
>> measured in minutes, hours, or weeks?
>>
>Depends on what you're cutting and the quality of the bit, which makes
>sense.
Figure a decent quality bit/insert bit.
Carving wood
Carving melamine/mdf
Carving solid surface
Carving HDU/foam board
Cutting acrylic/lexan
Cutting aluminum
Ballpark is OK.
--
The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer
On Feb 22, 10:07=A0am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> MDF is always a bitch to work with. Heavy, dulls bits quickly, full of
> formaldehyde, butt-ugly grain. =A0;) =A0Is MDO what you're referring to? =
I
> haven't yet worked with it but have heard it's made for outdoor
> signage. I'd think the foams and AluPanel were better for that
> nowadays.
>
MDO is plywood and coated with a resin impregnated kraft paper.
Weather resistant.
Nice flat, clean surface (usually one side) ready for primer/paint.
A lot of guys primer then high gloss colour paint then vinyl cut
letters. A relatively low-cost durable sign.
Edges are often coated with epoxy to waterproof them.
On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 19:37:56 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Feb 21, 9:57 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 11:03:19 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
>>
>> Do you ever fume or flame polish them?
>
>Not The AluPanel edges. But I have used a proper electric heat gun to
>polish the edges of acrylic. Now I don't remember which ends up with a
>nicer edge, the extruded or the cast acrylic.
Yeah, I meant the acrylic.
>> >SignFoam costs me $60.00 - $ 90.00 depending on 1-4 sheets per
>> >shipment.
>
>> Is that the cost or the shipping fee?
>
>Shipping.
That's positively a real issue with quoting prices for a sign. Wow!
>> >The shit that kills me is the Extera. I won't be handling any of that
>> >for while. Dirty, expensive, and heavy.
>>
>> Extira: wood, phenolic resins, zinc borate, water repellent, and other
>> ingredients. Yum! Sounds like chem-petrified Ipe. I don't blame you
>> for not liking it. --== But it's RENEWABLE/SUSTAINABLE ==--, right?
>>
>There is an MDF which falls in between Extira and regular MDF binding
>technologies. It is water resistant, not water proof.
>I'm looking into it. Still heavy though.
MDF is always a bitch to work with. Heavy, dulls bits quickly, full of
formaldehyde, butt-ugly grain. ;) Is MDO what you're referring to? I
haven't yet worked with it but have heard it's made for outdoor
signage. I'd think the foams and AluPanel were better for that
nowadays.
--
Every day I remind myself that my inner and outer life are
based on the labors of other men, living and dead, and that
I must exert myself in order to give in the same measure as
I have received and am still receiving.
-- Albert Einstein
On Sat, 18 Feb 2012 06:08:41 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 2/18/2012 12:20 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> Leon, Swingy: this one's for you:
>>
>> NEW from THISisCarpentry:
>>
>> "Festool Training Class" by Matt Follett.
>>
>> "What do a real estate agent, a dentist, an architect, a couple of
>> woodworkers, and a father/sons machinist trio have in common? They
>> were all attendees of the two-day Festool Cabinet Construction Class
>> that I was lucky enough to get into...."
>>
>> Read the full article by visiting THISisCarpentry.com, or by clicking
>> the following direct link:
>>
>> http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2012/02/17/festool-class-follett/
>>
>> LJ sez: It's chock full o' green stripeded thangs.
>
>They've been holding these things for quite a while, but always too far
>to walk to be carrying my Festoolies. ;0)
>
>Laughing aside, and considering what it costs to tool up for a 32mm
>cabinet shop - and the space to set it up in - Festool is waaaay less
>expensive by comparison.
>
>That's why so many operations load up on Festool ... you can do it
>onsite without a lot shop space and that constant, eroding, monthly,
>making-money-for-a-landlord, ongoing, overhead.
Yeah, I can see that it would.
>Keep poking fun of Festool, C_Less ... while some of us laugh all the
>way to the bank. :)
You do that! My direction is a way other than as a cabinet shop, but
I have been bitten by the plunge saw bug, you bastids. Dina may be
replaced by a Makita SP6000K1 some day soon.
Parts have been pouring in from around the country this past week for
the CNC router build I'm planning. 4' x 4'. It's a modified PDJ Pilot
Pro.
Do you know how hard it is to get a new parallel port card for a new
computer? None of the computer shops around town had one so I had to
eBay it.
--
The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer
On Feb 20, 2:23=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Feb 2012 09:50:12 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
> Interesting. =A0How do you deal with your waste? =A0Do you have separate
> cans for different materials, swapping them out from under a vortex
> separator? =A0The mixed fine dust would go to the waste stream and the
> wood to recycling, I'm guessing.
>
I keep sq-ft pieces if the texture/pattern warrants it. Smaller if
they're figured soapstone, exotic woods etc.
SignFoam pieces can be glued together to make new ones, seamless (wavy
bit, Gorilla glue).
>
> Insert bits? =A0Do you have a toolchanger? =A0Is the ballnose a milling
> cutter?
>
Those are bits that take blades which take a preset position in a
holder. like:
http://www.carbide.com/catalog/RBits-insert-start.cfm
The Ballnose could be called a milling cutter, again, another reason
for high torque/slow speeds for use in some materials.
>
> Compression bits? =A0Oh...http://tinyurl.com/6qzgmgk
> EIGHTY SEVEN BUCKS APIECE? =A0That's crazy.
Hardly crazy. V-bits with a pack of inserts go for a lot more.
Two-sided letters, laminated or melamine, shelves, etc. A very useful
bit which can save a lot of work.
> What kind of bit life do you get on the various materials? Is it
> measured in minutes, hours, or weeks?
>
Depends on what you're cutting and the quality of the bit, which makes
sense.
On Mon, 20 Feb 2012 09:50:12 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Feb 20, 8:33 am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 19:32:33 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >On Feb 18, 9:31 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>> >wrote:
>>
>> >> <<the key to success, is a spindle, no shortcut there.>>
>>
>> >> 2 questions: Why? and What spindles do you recommend/why?
>>
>> >A
>>
>> >Many files, in particular 3D carvings, can have very long run-times.
>> >The duty-cycle of a universal (brushed) isn't rated in hours. More
>> >like minutes. Also, with a VFD controlling the spindle's speed, torque
>> >distribution at the set RPM is a lot more uniform. Universal motors
>> >don't 'lock' into a preset RPM. Then there are cooling and bearing
>> >issues that spindles deal with handily but router bodies don't. And
>> >then there's the noise difference. Very telling that spindles run at
>> >those speeds much more comfortably is by the quietness of their
>> >operation. Columbo, Elte and HSD are are pretty good brands. 2HP is
>> >enough in most cases, IMHO. If you can afford it, 3HP is nice. When
>> >you get into 5 HP, you're also upping the VFD expense. Also, the
>> >bigger spindles require heftier tracks etc...
>> >CNC-Zone has some cool discussion groups.
>>
>> So a spindle would also require a VFD? ChaChing!
>> How much quieter are they than the routers?
>> I'm following CNC-Zone, Signs101, RouterForums, BobCADforums, etc.
>> trying to get into the mood.
>> What cutters do you find that you use most often, Rob?
>
>The spindles I am familiar with (with which I am familiar) are 3 phase
>220 volt. The variable frequency allows speeds much higher than a
>basic 2-pole 60 Hz induction motor would allow. 3600 RPM is the max
>for a 2 pole 60 Hz and just too damned slow.
> For a VFD driven spindle, mine goes from 8000 to 22000 RPM without
>sacrificing power. Also, my VFD has programmable run-up speeds and
>braking. When changing bits, often, the braking is a very nice
>feature. Also, when changing bits, often, the collet and nut set-up on
>a spindle is far more secure and 'professional' than the crap they
>stick on regular routers. 1/2" shank is a must.
>I don't have any numbers memorized in terms of 'quietness', but my
>hunch is a solid -20dB down from a router, and I suspect much more.
>The hum of my dust collector is much louder than the spindle. It is
That's a definitely quieter beastie.
>relatively quiet, until the bit hits the material it is cutting. A
>spiral upcut 1/4" bit entering the side of a 1/2" thick slab of Corian
>at 50in/min@18,000RPM makes a lot of noise... carving a slab of cherry
>with a 1/4" ballnose is barely audible.
Interesting. How do you deal with your waste? Do you have separate
cans for different materials, swapping them out from under a vortex
separator? The mixed fine dust would go to the waste stream and the
wood to recycling, I'm guessing.
>Bit selection is simply too varied to have a 'stock' arsenal. There
>are those you'll use all the time, at least I do, such as 1/4" spiral,
>1/4" ballnose for rough carving, V-bits of varied angles (Insert bits
>are highly recommended.)
Insert bits? Do you have a toolchanger? Is the ballnose a milling
cutter?
>Then there are the umpteen different bits
>just for different alupanel and plexiglass, (a different bit for
>extruded acrylic vs cast acrylic) and so on and so on. Compression
>bits are fun.
Compression bits? Oh... http://tinyurl.com/6qzgmgk
EIGHTY SEVEN BUCKS APIECE? That's crazy.
Um, why "fun"? Combined up and down spirals to prevent chipout on
double-sided cutthroughs?
>I price the bits I need into the job. If I already have it, good for
>me.
That's what I was figuring, too. Price it in whether it's needed or
not. What kind of bit life do you get on the various materials? Is it
measured in minutes, hours, or weeks?
--
The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer
On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 11:03:19 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Feb 21, 12:48 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 08:21:25 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
>
>>
>> >Other than the brushed versions of AluPanel, the stuff is perfect for
>> >outdoor letters.
>>
>> How do you treat the edges, or do you?
>
>Often times, I don't do a thing to the edges, but if they're indoors
>and people get close, some filing and sandpaper will clean the edges
>up nice.
Do you ever fume or flame polish them?
>> >Flat shapes in a large palette of colours and gloss. The back can be v-
>> >carved to within the face foil and then folded as a box or beam. There
>> >are v-bits made just for that.http://acmesignsupplies.com/file_library/prods/156_Belin%202008.pdf
>> >The no-paint and durability makes it a good choice for letters to be
>> >put on stand-offs on walls. Easy to cut as well and about $100.00 for
>> >a 4' x 8' sheet x 0.125"
>>
>> I'll bet shipping is hell for the big sheets...
>>
>The sheets are supplied to me by my client, who has them delivered by
>their distributor who runs a truck our way weekly... so no direct
>charge when *I* need a sheet or two.
Yer one lucky banana farmer, dude.
>SignFoam costs me $60.00 - $ 90.00 depending on 1-4 sheets per
>shipment.
Is that the cost or the shipping fee?
>The shit that kills me is the Extera. I won't be handling any of that
>for while. Dirty, expensive, and heavy.
Extira: wood, phenolic resins, zinc borate, water repellent, and other
ingredients. Yum! Sounds like chem-petrified Ipe. I don't blame you
for not liking it. --== But it's RENEWABLE/SUSTAINABLE ==--, right?
--
The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer
On Feb 21, 9:57=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 11:03:19 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
>
> Do you ever fume or flame polish them?
Not The AluPanel edges. But I have used a proper electric heat gun to
polish the edges of acrylic. Now I don't remember which ends up with a
nicer edge, the extruded or the cast acrylic.
> >SignFoam costs me $60.00 - $ 90.00 depending on 1-4 sheets per
> >shipment.
> Is that the cost or the shipping fee?
Shipping.
>
> >The shit that kills me is the Extera. I won't be handling any of that
> >for while. Dirty, expensive, and heavy.
>
> Extira: wood, phenolic resins, zinc borate, water repellent, and other
> ingredients. =A0Yum! =A0Sounds like chem-petrified Ipe. =A0I don't blame =
you
> for not liking it. =A0--=3D=3D But it's RENEWABLE/SUSTAINABLE =3D=3D--, r=
ight?
>
There is an MDF which falls in between Extira and regular MDF binding
technologies. It is water resistant, not water proof.
I'm looking into it. Still heavy though.
On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 19:32:33 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Feb 18, 9:31 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>>
>>
>> <<the key to success, is a spindle, no shortcut there.>>
>>
>> 2 questions: Why? and What spindles do you recommend/why?
>>
>
>A
>
>Many files, in particular 3D carvings, can have very long run-times.
>The duty-cycle of a universal (brushed) isn't rated in hours. More
>like minutes. Also, with a VFD controlling the spindle's speed, torque
>distribution at the set RPM is a lot more uniform. Universal motors
>don't 'lock' into a preset RPM. Then there are cooling and bearing
>issues that spindles deal with handily but router bodies don't. And
>then there's the noise difference. Very telling that spindles run at
>those speeds much more comfortably is by the quietness of their
>operation. Columbo, Elte and HSD are are pretty good brands. 2HP is
>enough in most cases, IMHO. If you can afford it, 3HP is nice. When
>you get into 5 HP, you're also upping the VFD expense. Also, the
>bigger spindles require heftier tracks etc...
>CNC-Zone has some cool discussion groups.
So a spindle would also require a VFD? ChaChing!
How much quieter are they than the routers?
I'm following CNC-Zone, Signs101, RouterForums, BobCADforums, etc.
trying to get into the mood.
What cutters do you find that you use most often, Rob?
--
The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer
On Feb 21, 12:48=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 08:21:25 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
>
> >Other than the brushed versions of AluPanel, the stuff is perfect for
> >outdoor letters.
>
> How do you treat the edges, or do you?
Often times, I don't do a thing to the edges, but if they're indoors
and people get close, some filing and sandpaper will clean the edges
up nice.
>
> >Flat shapes in a large palette of colours and gloss. The back can be v-
> >carved to within the face foil and then folded as a box or beam. There
> >are v-bits made just for that.http://acmesignsupplies.com/file_library/p=
rods/156_Belin%202008.pdf
> >The no-paint and durability makes it a good choice for letters to be
> >put on stand-offs on walls. Easy to cut as well and about $100.00 for
> >a 4' x 8' sheet x 0.125"
>
> I'll bet shipping is hell for the big sheets...
>
The sheets are supplied to me by my client, who has them delivered by
their distributor who runs a truck our way weekly... so no direct
charge when *I* need a sheet or two.
SignFoam costs me $60.00 - $ 90.00 depending on 1-4 sheets per
shipment.
The shit that kills me is the Extera. I won't be handling any of that
for while. Dirty, expensive, and heavy.
On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 08:21:25 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Feb 21, 10:43 am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>> >I stick to AluPanel for the 'aluminum look'.
>> >http://www.multipaneluk.co.uk/products/sign-materials/alupanel/
>> >That stuff is awesome.
>>
>> How is it used? Do you carve and paint it, or carve shapes/letters and
>> glue them on?
>>
>
>Other than the brushed versions of AluPanel, the stuff is perfect for
>outdoor letters.
How do you treat the edges, or do you?
>Flat shapes in a large palette of colours and gloss. The back can be v-
>carved to within the face foil and then folded as a box or beam. There
>are v-bits made just for that. http://acmesignsupplies.com/file_library/prods/156_Belin%202008.pdf
>The no-paint and durability makes it a good choice for letters to be
>put on stand-offs on walls. Easy to cut as well and about $100.00 for
>a 4' x 8' sheet x 0.125"
I'll bet shipping is hell for the big sheets...
--
The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer
On Sat, 18 Feb 2012 08:45:12 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Oh, and C-less, do what you can to go to a spindle, you will NOT be
>happy with a regular universal router motor. Even a 2HP spindle will
>be a HUGE improvement over ANY router body.
The Hitachi will get me in the door, and a nice spindle will be one of
the upgrades I do in the future, when the cash flow reverses.
--
The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer