There seems to be a major difference between a professional
woodworker (one whose livelyhood is from woodworking) and
a hobbyist who does woodworking for fun/therapy. There are
a lucky few who make a good income from their woodworking,
but they're few and far between.
I've found that the work of an experienced "enthusiast" often
exhibits more attention to details and finer workmanship than
the work of many professionals. This is not to say that the
pro is unable to do better work, just the monetary return
on their investment in time and effort doesn't often make it
"worth it".
Here's some of the differences I see. What are some of the
differences you feel are significant?
Do you think the best work comes from the pro or a fanatic
hobbyist?
To the pro, time is money
To the hobbyist time - in the shop - is also valuable, but only
because there may not be much of it available, given all
his/her other demands for time ( kids, spouse, job, friends,
etc..)
-===============
The pro most often makes things for customers who have
particular wants and needs and delivery/installation dates.
The hobbyist may also have people to satisfy but they're
usually less demanding and the design is less constrained/
defined. Deadlines and delivery dates are more geared
towards birthdays, anniversaries and a few holidays.
===================
The pro is more concerned with the function and less
concerned about nuances of the wood, the finish, the
edge treatments etc.
The hobbyist may agonize for weeks over just the wood
selection, another week selecting the grain of key
parts and spend hours getting the edge treatment(s) to
catch the light just so.
======================
The pro will optimize his sheet layout to get the most
ouf of each sheet in order to minimize "waste" and
increase profits.
The hobbyist may "waste" half a board to get that
special grain pattern for a particular piece.
=======================
The pro often specializes in a type of furniture,
case work, solid wood construction, period pieces,
a particular style.
A hobbyist will do all types of woodworking and
may get pretty good at a range of styles, methods
of joining etc..
====================
A pro's goal is the check from the client.
A hobbyist often sees the process/journey as
the goal, the finished piece being just the end
of a particular journey.
=====================
To a pro, wood is just a material with certain
characteristics which lend themselves to making
into saleable pieces.
To a hobbyist, wood may be a magic thing that
may even have its own voice and talks to them.
===================
To the pro, efficiency means profit.
To the hobbyist efficiency may me using the
wood very well - and maybe avoiding tear out.
Other than that the word has little meaning
====================
The pro must often make "vanilla" pieces which
are marketable.
The hobbyist can do any flavor that strikes his
or her fancy. May not work in the end but
the enthusiast can "spend" the time exploring.
===================
charlie b
What the customer is willing to pay for. Seems most today want it cheap not
looking for quality. Then there is the other extreme. Willing to pay any
price these are the most desirable customers the ones with more money than
brains. I mean really $6000 for a kitchen table. No joke the shop near the
one I work in actually sold one the other day then the customer paid out an
additional $1500 a piece for chairs. Go figger.
I think we do good just selling 2 5.5" x 14.375" x 0.98" pieces of birdseye
maple to a customer for $47. Seriously
D. Mo
Amen!!
"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> There seems to be a major difference between a professional
> woodworker (one whose livelyhood is from woodworking) and
> a hobbyist who does woodworking for fun/therapy. There are
> a lucky few who make a good income from their woodworking,
> but they're few and far between.
>
> I've found that the work of an experienced "enthusiast" often
> exhibits more attention to details and finer workmanship than
> the work of many professionals. This is not to say that the
> pro is unable to do better work, just the monetary return
> on their investment in time and effort doesn't often make it
> "worth it".
>
> Here's some of the differences I see. What are some of the
> differences you feel are significant?
>
> Do you think the best work comes from the pro or a fanatic
> hobbyist?
>
>
> To the pro, time is money
>
> To the hobbyist time - in the shop - is also valuable, but only
> because there may not be much of it available, given all
> his/her other demands for time ( kids, spouse, job, friends,
> etc..)
> -===============
>
> The pro most often makes things for customers who have
> particular wants and needs and delivery/installation dates.
>
> The hobbyist may also have people to satisfy but they're
> usually less demanding and the design is less constrained/
> defined. Deadlines and delivery dates are more geared
> towards birthdays, anniversaries and a few holidays.
> ===================
>
> The pro is more concerned with the function and less
> concerned about nuances of the wood, the finish, the
> edge treatments etc.
>
> The hobbyist may agonize for weeks over just the wood
> selection, another week selecting the grain of key
> parts and spend hours getting the edge treatment(s) to
> catch the light just so.
> ======================
>
> The pro will optimize his sheet layout to get the most
> ouf of each sheet in order to minimize "waste" and
> increase profits.
>
> The hobbyist may "waste" half a board to get that
> special grain pattern for a particular piece.
> =======================
>
> The pro often specializes in a type of furniture,
> case work, solid wood construction, period pieces,
> a particular style.
>
> A hobbyist will do all types of woodworking and
> may get pretty good at a range of styles, methods
> of joining etc..
> ====================
>
> A pro's goal is the check from the client.
>
> A hobbyist often sees the process/journey as
> the goal, the finished piece being just the end
> of a particular journey.
> =====================
>
> To a pro, wood is just a material with certain
> characteristics which lend themselves to making
> into saleable pieces.
>
> To a hobbyist, wood may be a magic thing that
> may even have its own voice and talks to them.
> ===================
>
> To the pro, efficiency means profit.
>
> To the hobbyist efficiency may me using the
> wood very well - and maybe avoiding tear out.
> Other than that the word has little meaning
> ====================
>
> The pro must often make "vanilla" pieces which
> are marketable.
>
> The hobbyist can do any flavor that strikes his
> or her fancy. May not work in the end but
> the enthusiast can "spend" the time exploring.
> ===================
>
> charlie b
Lots of great responses and plenty to think about as a result.
When I think of a pro I think of Frank Klausz, a product of
the european apprentice system. He was taught THE way
to do each woodworking task and THE order in which to
do them. He seems to go into auto pilot mode - you do this
this way and then you do this next - this way ... It's done
in this order and in this way because it's the quickest,
most efficient and best way to do this because it's based
on hundreds of years of experience, it's the way I was
taught to do it - and it works.
Maybe I'm reading this into it, but this approach seems
to lack many opportunities to explore possibilities
as
the wood and the situation presents them.
Toshio Odate also comes from a similar traditional apprentice-
ship background - but with a little more soul - very
quiet soul, but soul nonetheless. His tools and his wood
are part of him and he puts some of himself back into
them. I'm not sure the european apprentice programs
gets into the soul side as much. The tools are a means to
and end rather than one of tge participants in a process
of doing.
Tom Watson's contribution to the discussion, as always,
was thought provoking. A caring pro does make an effort
to use the wood to its best purpose and for its most pleasing
appearance in the finished piece. And with years of practice,
probably no longer needs to agonize on which piece of which
board should go here, this way, rather than that way. Or
grieve the "waste" of a nice board, knowing it will be used
in some other piece somewhere down the line.
Maybe that's another distinguishing difference between
a pro and a hobbyiest - the amount and selection of
wood on hand. What a luxory that'd be.
It certainly would be nice to sit in on a pro like Tom's
internal conversation while selecting the boards for
his next piece. Here's another internal conversation
I'd like to listen in on.
http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/KrenovPondering.html
I really like the idea of edge treatments and joinery as
the jewelry of the design. As a former jewelry maker
the analogy strikes home. Even a beautiful woman looks,
and probably feels, better wearing a fine piece of jewelry.
Of course a sensitive design will not try and guild (sp?)
the lily.
The hobbyist doesn't usually do large installations where
matching patterns and colors must be made to fit together
in a pleasing and coherent manner. That would drive me
crazy. Maybe that's another difference between the pro
and the hobbyist - the magnitude of the work, with the
complexities that go along with large project. Imagine
what Tom Plamann's dealing with on his staircase project.
Unlike the hobbyist, the pro must, in addition to having
the knowledge, skills and abilities for the woodworking,
must also know people and how to work with them - a skill
that sometimes is lacking in some of the threads recently.
Tom summarized what a pro should be.
"The pro will optimize the use of his time, tools and wood.
He follows the "least effort theory" in production but does
not sacrifice final appearance and a general sense of design,
proportion, balance, structural integrity and visual impact
- on the altar of "efficiency". He designs, bids and builds in
such a way as to hold true to the fundamentals of his creed
- which is to say that he came up with a design, which he
believes that the customer will like, and which he believes
is worth lending his efforts to - he prices his work so that
he can afford to incorporate the elements that will make the
design sing - he will make enough money to support his family
- but will never make so much as he could have, taking his
artistic sense, his organiazational skills, his ability to work
long hours in pursuit of a goal - on to some other venue.
When your vocation and your avocation are the same you
are truly lucky. Doing what one loves and loves what one
is doing - well that's good fortune smiling on you."
I put my foot in it with this one
> The pro is more concerned with the function and less
> concerned about nuances of the wood, the finish, the
> edge treatments etc.
and Chris rightfully corrected me
"On this topic I could not disagree more. I take great care and concern
to
take the characteristics of the wood involved to produce an astatically
pleasing final product and for it also to be a functional product at the
same time."
As did Charlie Self
"I don't think so. Pros are probably more likely to see right away how a
piece of wood will best accept a project."
ADubya adding a new dimension
' "Craftsmen" , "hobbyist" and "pro" all have different meanings IMHO.
The "pro" could probably whip you up a chest of drawers in less than a
week,
technically perfect. The hobbyist, can build the same chest in as many
weekends as it takes, over extending the capability of his tools,
supplies
and experience. The craftsman, will build the same chest and take the
time
to source the perfect material for the project, execute perfect jointery
and
detail, demand perfection throughout the project from himself, and it
will
take as long as needed, to satisfy his own standards. '
Paul Kierstead got to the bottom line
"I think the real question is: Does it matter? There is no shame in
being
an amateur, none at all. There is no pride in being a pro. Either you
build things you can be proud of or you don't, it doesn't matter who is
footing the bill."
Looks like dedicated pros and semi-fanatic hobbyist have a lot more in
common
than I'd thought.
charlie b
I can probably outdo a lot of the non-professionals, but there are those
that are as good as any woodworker that can be found.
I need to make money, or else, why open the doors. I have better than
average quality for "run of the mill" cabinets at a fair price (which is
typically a little higher than other shops). This tends to be my main
source of business. If someone is interested in something special or
demands quality, like a nice piece of furniture, then my price goes up
accordingly as does my quality. I would think that most serious amateur
woodworkers could easily outdo my "run of the mill" cabinets, but I probably
build them faster, the quality is more than acceptable and I make a decent
profit versus time.
A little side note brought to mind from another thread. Part of making
money in the shop is knowing when you are finished.
Preston
"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> There seems to be a major difference between a professional
> woodworker (one whose livelyhood is from woodworking) and
> a hobbyist who does woodworking for fun/therapy. There are
> a lucky few who make a good income from their woodworking,
> but they're few and far between.
>
> I've found that the work of an experienced "enthusiast" often
> exhibits more attention to details and finer workmanship than
> the work of many professionals. This is not to say that the
> pro is unable to do better work, just the monetary return
> on their investment in time and effort doesn't often make it
> "worth it".
>
> Here's some of the differences I see. What are some of the
> differences you feel are significant?
>
> Do you think the best work comes from the pro or a fanatic
> hobbyist?
>
>
> To the pro, time is money
>
> To the hobbyist time - in the shop - is also valuable, but only
> because there may not be much of it available, given all
> his/her other demands for time ( kids, spouse, job, friends,
> etc..)
> -===============
>
> The pro most often makes things for customers who have
> particular wants and needs and delivery/installation dates.
>
> The hobbyist may also have people to satisfy but they're
> usually less demanding and the design is less constrained/
> defined. Deadlines and delivery dates are more geared
> towards birthdays, anniversaries and a few holidays.
> ===================
>
> The pro is more concerned with the function and less
> concerned about nuances of the wood, the finish, the
> edge treatments etc.
>
> The hobbyist may agonize for weeks over just the wood
> selection, another week selecting the grain of key
> parts and spend hours getting the edge treatment(s) to
> catch the light just so.
> ======================
>
> The pro will optimize his sheet layout to get the most
> ouf of each sheet in order to minimize "waste" and
> increase profits.
>
> The hobbyist may "waste" half a board to get that
> special grain pattern for a particular piece.
> =======================
>
> The pro often specializes in a type of furniture,
> case work, solid wood construction, period pieces,
> a particular style.
>
> A hobbyist will do all types of woodworking and
> may get pretty good at a range of styles, methods
> of joining etc..
> ====================
>
> A pro's goal is the check from the client.
>
> A hobbyist often sees the process/journey as
> the goal, the finished piece being just the end
> of a particular journey.
> =====================
>
> To a pro, wood is just a material with certain
> characteristics which lend themselves to making
> into saleable pieces.
>
> To a hobbyist, wood may be a magic thing that
> may even have its own voice and talks to them.
> ===================
>
> To the pro, efficiency means profit.
>
> To the hobbyist efficiency may me using the
> wood very well - and maybe avoiding tear out.
> Other than that the word has little meaning
> ====================
>
> The pro must often make "vanilla" pieces which
> are marketable.
>
> The hobbyist can do any flavor that strikes his
> or her fancy. May not work in the end but
> the enthusiast can "spend" the time exploring.
> ===================
>
> charlie b
I'm not sure I agree. I think there are people in every profession or trade
that are in it strictly for the money. In every profession or trade there
are also perfectionists. To take it a step further, there are people that
make a commitment to contribute to society in their profession/trade.
"Craftsmen" , "hobbyist" and "pro" all have different meanings IMHO.
The "pro" could probably whip you up a chest of drawers in less than a week,
technically perfect. The hobbyist, can build the same chest in as many
weekends as it takes, over extending the capability of his tools, supplies
and experience. The craftsman, will build the same chest and take the time
to source the perfect material for the project, execute perfect jointery and
detail, demand perfection throughout the project from himself, and it will
take as long as needed, to satisfy his own standards.
Cheers,
aw