climbing bit

"Some background on your dilemma in the spiral cutter question at the
http://www.patwarner.com/faq.html link.
*****************************************
> Got the PC 7518 in the PRL and the Twin linear fence going this weekend.
> I have been making wonderful box joints as I make the drawers for the
> router table / cabinet
>
> I switched from a two flute stright cutter -- used for the box joints to
> a 1/4" onsrud (sp?) sprial up cut (down cut since its in the table) and
> started to mill the groove for the plywood drawer bottoms. Funny thing
> happened. The bit "climed" -- changed height. Hmmmmm. So I check
> everything, height of router -- did the lift move ? or was the bit loose
> -- did the bit move ? Reset everything and started in on a new piece --
> bit climbed again. Router lift did not move -- must have been the bit.
> I checked the bit again, do not know how much tighter I can make the
> collet --- hmmmmmm
>
> Anybody else have the same experience ? I will try a straight two flut
> bit next, but thought the onsrud would make a cleaner cut.
>
> Other question: A while back I bought a 3/8" onsrud on a 3/8" shaft
> (missed the shaft size when I ordered the $40 bit). So now with only
> 1/4" and 1/2" collets what to do. Well I found a 3/8" collet from PC,
> invest $12 more to use the $40 bit -- good bargin (vice chucking the $40
> bit) Ok so I get the 3/8" collet and the 3/8" onsrud does not fit --
> calipered both and they seem to be right --- Thoughts ?
>
>
> --

I've had similar problems with Incra extrusions. I think they need to
improve their inspection process. I have spent some time in their
manufacturing area I can't recall seeing and systematic inspection there.

RB

Bay Area Dave wrote:
> I had a dovetail bit climb nearly out of the collet when milling some
> dovetails the other day. it is a 1/4" shanked bit (the only way I could
> purchase that particular size incra dovetail bit from CMT). After
> ruining my project boards and scaring me a bit, I found that cleaning
> off every last trace of oily residue from the bit shank and the collet,
> followed by tightening the sucker substantially tighter than the first
> go round, solved the problem. I finished the project with the bit not
> moving even .001. I used Q-tips to get down in the collet.
>
> BTW, I also have the 7518 and twin linear. Now I'm waiting to receive a
> straight pair of fences from Woodpecker's. I ordered 2 a couple weeks
> ago but they arrived dished .047 (concave) in the middle. That's a big
> discrepancy for something about 4" wide! Along their length they are
> flat. The problem is they aren't vertically flat. My original fence
> are PERFECTLY flat across their faces.
>
> dave
>
> SamTheCat wrote:
>
>> Got the PC 7518 in the PRL and the Twin linear fence going this
>> weekend. I have been making wonderful box joints as I make the
>> drawers for the router table / cabinet
>>
>> I switched from a two flute stright cutter -- used for the box joints
>> to a 1/4" onsrud (sp?) sprial up cut (down cut since its in the table)
>> and started to mill the groove for the plywood drawer bottoms. Funny
>> thing happened. The bit "climed" -- changed height. Hmmmmm. So I
>> check everything, height of router -- did the lift move ? or was the
>> bit loose -- did the bit move ? Reset everything and started in on a
>> new piece -- bit climbed again. Router lift did not move -- must have
>> been the bit. I checked the bit again, do not know how much tighter I
>> can make the collet --- hmmmmmm
>>
>> Anybody else have the same experience ? I will try a straight two
>> flut bit next, but thought the onsrud would make a cleaner cut.
>>
>> Other question: A while back I bought a 3/8" onsrud on a 3/8" shaft
>> (missed the shaft size when I ordered the $40 bit). So now with only
>> 1/4" and 1/2" collets what to do. Well I found a 3/8" collet from PC,
>> invest $12 more to use the $40 bit -- good bargin (vice chucking the
>> $40 bit) Ok so I get the 3/8" collet and the 3/8" onsrud does not fit
>> -- calipered both and they seem to be right --- Thoughts ?
>>
>>
>
>

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 09:48:01 -0500, Cape Cod Bob wrote:

> ISO9000 was never intended to be a "Good Housekeeping Seal of
> Approval" for retail customers. Rather, it was designed for the
> component marketplace.

It's what led us at an "in search of Six-Sigma" company to note "the
process IS the product". For software, the SEI CMM was a much more
meaningful path to quality, although very painful productivity wise
on the journey to the benefits. Great idea in theory, but our division
of the company went under before the payoff - hmmmmmmmm. I think it had
to do with management wanting to use these quality initiatives as a
marketing tool rather than a means to true improved quality.

--
-Doug

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:56:11 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>In most manufacturing plants today, inspection stations are being
>eliminated. Process control eliminates the need for much of it. Inspectors,
>being human, miss many defects. (100% inspection catches 80% of the erors)
>The theory has been proven that if you can control the way things are made
>you can control the finished product far better.
>
>Don't let the ISO 9000 thing give you the warm and fuzzy feeling either. It
>does not mean the company makes a good products, it meand the company makes
>a consistant product and documents it well, even if the standard is to make
>crap. ISO 9000 assures that the crap you buy today is going to be the same
>as the crap you bought yesterday and tomorrow.

ISO9000 was never intended to be a "Good Housekeeping Seal of
Approval" for retail customers. Rather, it was designed for the
component marketplace.

I had a dovetail bit climb nearly out of the collet when milling some
dovetails the other day. it is a 1/4" shanked bit (the only way I could
purchase that particular size incra dovetail bit from CMT). After
ruining my project boards and scaring me a bit, I found that cleaning
off every last trace of oily residue from the bit shank and the collet,
followed by tightening the sucker substantially tighter than the first
go round, solved the problem. I finished the project with the bit not
moving even .001. I used Q-tips to get down in the collet.

BTW, I also have the 7518 and twin linear. Now I'm waiting to receive a
straight pair of fences from Woodpecker's. I ordered 2 a couple weeks
ago but they arrived dished .047 (concave) in the middle. That's a big
discrepancy for something about 4" wide! Along their length they are
flat. The problem is they aren't vertically flat. My original fence
are PERFECTLY flat across their faces.

dave

SamTheCat wrote:
> Got the PC 7518 in the PRL and the Twin linear fence going this
> weekend. I have been making wonderful box joints as I make the drawers
> for the router table / cabinet
>
> I switched from a two flute stright cutter -- used for the box joints to
> a 1/4" onsrud (sp?) sprial up cut (down cut since its in the table) and
> started to mill the groove for the plywood drawer bottoms. Funny thing
> happened. The bit "climed" -- changed height. Hmmmmm. So I check
> everything, height of router -- did the lift move ? or was the bit loose
> -- did the bit move ? Reset everything and started in on a new piece --
> bit climbed again. Router lift did not move -- must have been the bit.
> I checked the bit again, do not know how much tighter I can make the
> collet --- hmmmmmm
>
> Anybody else have the same experience ? I will try a straight two flut
> bit next, but thought the onsrud would make a cleaner cut.
>
> Other question: A while back I bought a 3/8" onsrud on a 3/8" shaft
> (missed the shaft size when I ordered the $40 bit). So now with only
> 1/4" and 1/2" collets what to do. Well I found a 3/8" collet from PC,
> invest $12 more to use the $40 bit -- good bargin (vice chucking the $40
> bit) Ok so I get the 3/8" collet and the 3/8" onsrud does not fit --
> calipered both and they seem to be right --- Thoughts ?
>
>

If the next one I receive is dished, I'm gonna ask for my money back and
live with the original one that I cut through with a rail bit. I
already offered to forget the order so that they wouldn't waste money
sending out another potentially unacceptable part, but they want to try
"at least once more". Doubt it will come today as it's a holiday.

dave

RB wrote:
> I've had similar problems with Incra extrusions. I think they need to
> improve their inspection process. I have spent some time in their
> manufacturing area I can't recall seeing and systematic inspection there.
>
> RB
>
> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
>> I had a dovetail bit climb nearly out of the collet when milling some
>> dovetails the other day. it is a 1/4" shanked bit (the only way I
>> could purchase that particular size incra dovetail bit from CMT).
>> After ruining my project boards and scaring me a bit, I found that
>> cleaning off every last trace of oily residue from the bit shank and
>> the collet, followed by tightening the sucker substantially tighter
>> than the first go round, solved the problem. I finished the project
>> with the bit not moving even .001. I used Q-tips to get down in the
>> collet.
>>
>> BTW, I also have the 7518 and twin linear. Now I'm waiting to receive
>> a straight pair of fences from Woodpecker's. I ordered 2 a couple
>> weeks ago but they arrived dished .047 (concave) in the middle.
>> That's a big discrepancy for something about 4" wide! Along their
>> length they are flat. The problem is they aren't vertically flat. My
>> original fence are PERFECTLY flat across their faces.
>>
>> dave
>>
>> SamTheCat wrote:
>>
>>> Got the PC 7518 in the PRL and the Twin linear fence going this
>>> weekend. I have been making wonderful box joints as I make the
>>> drawers for the router table / cabinet
>>>
>>> I switched from a two flute stright cutter -- used for the box joints
>>> to a 1/4" onsrud (sp?) sprial up cut (down cut since its in the
>>> table) and started to mill the groove for the plywood drawer
>>> bottoms. Funny thing happened. The bit "climed" -- changed height.
>>> Hmmmmm. So I check everything, height of router -- did the lift move
>>> ? or was the bit loose -- did the bit move ? Reset everything and
>>> started in on a new piece -- bit climbed again. Router lift did not
>>> move -- must have been the bit. I checked the bit again, do not know
>>> how much tighter I can make the collet --- hmmmmmm
>>>
>>> Anybody else have the same experience ? I will try a straight two
>>> flut bit next, but thought the onsrud would make a cleaner cut.
>>>
>>> Other question: A while back I bought a 3/8" onsrud on a 3/8" shaft
>>> (missed the shaft size when I ordered the $40 bit). So now with only
>>> 1/4" and 1/2" collets what to do. Well I found a 3/8" collet from
>>> PC, invest $12 more to use the $40 bit -- good bargin (vice chucking
>>> the $40 bit) Ok so I get the 3/8" collet and the 3/8" onsrud does
>>> not fit -- calipered both and they seem to be right --- Thoughts ?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I had a dovetail bit climb nearly out of the collet when milling some
> dovetails the other day. it is a 1/4" shanked bit (the only way I could
> purchase that particular size incra dovetail bit from CMT). After
> ruining my project boards and scaring me a bit, I found that cleaning
> off every last trace of oily residue from the bit shank and the collet,
> followed by tightening the sucker substantially tighter than the first
> go round, solved the problem. I finished the project with the bit not
> moving even .001. I used Q-tips to get down in the collet.
>
> BTW, I also have the 7518 and twin linear. Now I'm waiting to receive a
> straight pair of fences from Woodpecker's. I ordered 2 a couple weeks
> ago but they arrived dished .047 (concave) in the middle. That's a big
> discrepancy for something about 4" wide! Along their length they are
> flat. The problem is they aren't vertically flat. My original fence
> are PERFECTLY flat across their faces.
>
> dave
>
> SamTheCat wrote:
> > Got the PC 7518 in the PRL and the Twin linear fence going this
> > weekend. I have been making wonderful box joints as I make the drawers
> > for the router table / cabinet
> >
> > I switched from a two flute stright cutter -- used for the box joints to
> > a 1/4" onsrud (sp?) sprial up cut (down cut since its in the table) and
> > started to mill the groove for the plywood drawer bottoms. Funny thing
> > happened. The bit "climed" -- changed height. Hmmmmm. So I check
> > everything, height of router -- did the lift move ? or was the bit loose
> > -- did the bit move ? Reset everything and started in on a new piece --
> > bit climbed again. Router lift did not move -- must have been the bit.
> > I checked the bit again, do not know how much tighter I can make the
> > collet --- hmmmmmm
> >
> > Anybody else have the same experience ? I will try a straight two flut
> > bit next, but thought the onsrud would make a cleaner cut.
> >
> > Other question: A while back I bought a 3/8" onsrud on a 3/8" shaft
> > (missed the shaft size when I ordered the $40 bit). So now with only
> > 1/4" and 1/2" collets what to do. Well I found a 3/8" collet from PC,
> > invest $12 more to use the $40 bit -- good bargin (vice chucking the $40
> > bit) Ok so I get the 3/8" collet and the 3/8" onsrud does not fit --
> > calipered both and they seem to be right --- Thoughts ?
> >
> >
>

Thanks for the info -- now I'll have to measure my fence

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C3F3BF.7983F4E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I know this has been discussed here before several times.
Try not setting the shaft all the way into the collett. Make sure the =
collet area is clean.

--=20


"SamTheCat" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
Got the PC 7518 in the PRL and the Twin linear fence going this =
weekend. I have been making wonderful box joints as I make the drawers =
for the router table / cabinet

I switched from a two flute stright cutter -- used for the box joints =
to a 1/4" onsrud (sp?) sprial up cut (down cut since its in the table) =
and started to mill the groove for the plywood drawer bottoms. Funny =
thing happened. The bit "climed" -- changed height. Hmmmmm. So I =
check everything, height of router -- did the lift move ? or was the bit =
loose -- did the bit move ? Reset everything and started in on a new =
piece -- bit climbed again. Router lift did not move -- must have been =
the bit. I checked the bit again, do not know how much tighter I can =
make the collet --- hmmmmmm

Anybody else have the same experience ? I will try a straight two =
flut bit next, but thought the onsrud would make a cleaner cut.

Other question: A while back I bought a 3/8" onsrud on a 3/8" shaft =
(missed the shaft size when I ordered the $40 bit). So now with only =
1/4" and 1/2" collets what to do. Well I found a 3/8" collet from PC, =
invest $12 more to use the $40 bit -- good bargin (vice chucking the $40 =
bit) Ok so I get the 3/8" collet and the 3/8" onsrud does not fit -- =
calipered both and they seem to be right --- Thoughts ?


------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C3F3BF.7983F4E0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I know this has been discussed here =
before several=20
times.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Try not setting the shaft all the way =
into the=20
collett.&nbsp; Make sure the collet area is clean.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>-- <BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"SamTheCat" &lt;<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A>&gt;=
wrote=20
in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:[email protected]">news:jvKdnSV7Io12A7Ld4p2=
[email protected]</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Got the PC 7518 in the PRL and the =
Twin linear=20
fence going this weekend.&nbsp; I have been making wonderful box =
joints as I=20
make the drawers for the router table / cabinet</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I switched from a two flute stright =
cutter --=20
used for the box joints to a 1/4" onsrud (sp?) sprial up cut (down cut =
since=20
its in the table) and started to mill the groove for the plywood =
drawer=20
bottoms.&nbsp; Funny thing happened.&nbsp; The bit "climed" -- changed =

height.&nbsp; Hmmmmm.&nbsp; So I check everything, height of router -- =
did the=20
lift move ? or was the bit loose -- did the bit move ? Reset =
everything and=20
started in on a new piece -- bit climbed again.&nbsp; Router lift did =
not move=20
-- must have been the bit. I checked the bit again, do not know how =
much=20
tighter I can make the collet --- hmmmmmm</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Anybody else have the same experience =
?&nbsp; I=20
will try&nbsp;a straight two flut bit next, but thought the onsrud =
would make=20
a cleaner cut.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Other question: A while back I bought =
a 3/8"=20
onsrud on a 3/8" shaft (missed the shaft size when I ordered the $40=20
bit).&nbsp; So now with only 1/4" and 1/2" collets what to do.&nbsp; =
Well I=20
found a 3/8" collet from PC, invest $12 more to use the $40 bit -- =
good bargin=20
(vice chucking the $40 bit)&nbsp; Ok so I get the 3/8" collet and the =
3/8"=20
onsrud does not fit -- calipered both and they seem to be right --- =
Thoughts=20
?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C3F3BF.7983F4E0--

Cape Cod Bob wrote:
> ISO9000 was never intended to be a "Good Housekeeping Seal of
> Approval" for retail customers. Rather, it was designed for the
> component marketplace.

True, but people often think it gaurantees a quality product. It only means
they consistantly give the same product that meets their specification, be
them good or bad. You don't see it much (yet) on consumer good, but you
do on industrial products. Out hobby often uses goods intended for the
industrial/commercial world. More and more I see a little spot on a carton
stating "made by an ISO9000 certified company" This is sort of like
marketing at a filling station "our gas contains no water" in in our case,
"our wood is termite free" with the implication that others may be of
lesser quality.
--
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

RB wrote:
> I've had similar problems with Incra extrusions. I think they need to
> improve their inspection process. I have spent some time in their
> manufacturing area I can't recall seeing and systematic inspection
> there.
>
> RB

In most manufacturing plants today, inspection stations are being
eliminated. Process control eliminates the need for much of it. Inspectors,
being human, miss many defects. (100% inspection catches 80% of the erors)
The theory has been proven that if you can control the way things are made
you can control the finished product far better.

Don't let the ISO 9000 thing give you the warm and fuzzy feeling either. It
does not mean the company makes a good products, it meand the company makes
a consistant product and documents it well, even if the standard is to make
crap. ISO 9000 assures that the crap you buy today is going to be the same
as the crap you bought yesterday and tomorrow.
--
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

Check the diameter of the shaft on the bit. It could be undersized. I had the
problem with a Craftsman router many years ago. I finally gave it back to Sears
as a bad design problem becaue it happened with more than one bit. However,
nothing has moved since I switched to PC routers. My 7518 is in a table an
works great.

Len
------------

Routerman P. Warner wrote:

> "Some background on your dilemma in the spiral cutter question at the
> http://www.patwarner.com/faq.html link.
> *****************************************
>
>>Got the PC 7518 in the PRL and the Twin linear fence going this weekend.
>> I have been making wonderful box joints as I make the drawers for the
>>router table / cabinet
>>
>>I switched from a two flute stright cutter -- used for the box joints to
>>a 1/4" onsrud (sp?) sprial up cut (down cut since its in the table) and
>>started to mill the groove for the plywood drawer bottoms. Funny thing
>>happened. The bit "climed" -- changed height. Hmmmmm. So I check
>>everything, height of router -- did the lift move ? or was the bit loose
>>-- did the bit move ? Reset everything and started in on a new piece --
>>bit climbed again. Router lift did not move -- must have been the bit.
>>I checked the bit again, do not know how much tighter I can make the
>>collet --- hmmmmmm
>>
>>Anybody else have the same experience ? I will try a straight two flut
>>bit next, but thought the onsrud would make a cleaner cut.
>>
>>Other question: A while back I bought a 3/8" onsrud on a 3/8" shaft
>>(missed the shaft size when I ordered the $40 bit). So now with only
>>1/4" and 1/2" collets what to do. Well I found a 3/8" collet from PC,
>>invest $12 more to use the $40 bit -- good bargin (vice chucking the $40
>>bit) Ok so I get the 3/8" collet and the 3/8" onsrud does not fit --
>>calipered both and they seem to be right --- Thoughts ?
>>
>>
>>--

I had a similar problem with a 1/4" bit in my older PC router (6902).
A close examination showed that the collett was cut thru only in 1
place - so it was pretty stiff in resistence of being compressed in
diameter.

I went to the local tool shop and asked to see a replacement PC 1/4"
collett - it had been re-designed and was cut thru in several more
places and was much less stiff and resistant to being compressed in
diameter.

I bought the re-designed collett, and the problem was solved.

Your mileage may vary!

sopher


On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:31:46 -0500, "SamTheCat"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Got the PC 7518 in the PRL and the Twin linear fence going this weekend. I have been making wonderful box joints as I make the drawers for the router table / cabinet
>
>I switched from a two flute stright cutter -- used for the box joints to a 1/4" onsrud (sp?) sprial up cut (down cut since its in the table) and started to mill the groove for the plywood drawer bottoms. Funny thing happened. The bit "climed" -- changed height. Hmmmmm. So I check everything, height of router -- did the lift move ? or was the bit loose -- did the bit move ? Reset everything and started in on a new piece -- bit climbed again. Router lift did not move -- must have been the bit. I checked the bit again, do not know how much tighter I can make the collet --- hmmmmmm
>
>Anybody else have the same experience ? I will try a straight two flut bit next, but thought the onsrud would make a cleaner cut.
>
>Other question: A while back I bought a 3/8" onsrud on a 3/8" shaft (missed the shaft size when I ordered the $40 bit). So now with only 1/4" and 1/2" collets what to do. Well I found a 3/8" collet from PC, invest $12 more to use the $40 bit -- good bargin (vice chucking the $40 bit) Ok so I get the 3/8" collet and the 3/8" onsrud does not fit -- calipered both and they seem to be right --- Thoughts ?

Ditto ... The only time in years of using a router has a bit ever climbed on
me and that was with a 7518 and a 1/4" collet, and recently there have been
other reports here of bits climbing in the PC 7518 when using a 1/4" collet.
I know how to properly chuck up a router bit, so in my case it was neither
technique, nor lack of initial tightening.

I have observed that a 7518 runs hotter than any other modern router I've
used. I have noticed this with two other 7518's besides my own, and they run
particularly hot when used in a router table for any length of time.

I am surmising that the smaller collet and bit, with less mass and closer to
the action, is expanding at a different rate than the threaded arbor and
therefore loosening under the heat built up by the 7518 during prolonged
use.

With nothing else to go on, and when running a 1/4" collet in the 7518 in a
router table, I now let it run for a few minutes until the tool heats up,
preferably under a load on some scrap, then re-tighten the collet before
setting your depth of cut and fence.

... and, as always, make sure you don't 'bottom' the bit in the collet
before tightening.

I can't guarantee this will solve the problem, but it seems to be a prudent
step to take as it was not an uncommon one years ago on older tailed tools.

YMMV...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/13/04