I am preparing to build some kitchen cabinets and was looking at
options for making the installation easier.
I was planing on just making flat bottoms and installing them on a 2x4
frame (leveled and anchored first) and then putting a face on the 2x4
to finish it off.
Then someone told me that they would build the toe kick into the
cabinet and just shim and level it at install time. This would require
notching all the sides for the toe kick and seems to me, complicating
the building of the cabinet.
And finally, I have seen these leveling legs that attach to the bottom
of the cabinet. You just have to install a special toe kick that clips
onto the legs. I just worry how these would hold up. Are they strong
enough to hold a solid stone top?
Does anyone have any opinions on these options? Any preferences?
Pros/Cons...or any other ideas.
Appreciate any advice in advance.
bob
Also handy for storage in bathrooms in small appartments/condos.
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 13:40:18 -0500, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>> Read somewhere the other day about building baking sheet
>> storage drawer(s) into the toe kicks - has anyone done this?
>
>Scott...
>
>Why didn't /I/ ever think of that? What a great idea! Thanks!
[email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 13:40:18 -0500, Morris Dovey
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>
>>> Read somewhere the other day about building baking sheet
>>> storage drawer(s) into the toe kicks - has anyone done
>>> this?
>>
>> Scott...
>>
>> Why didn't /I/ ever think of that? What a great idea!
>> Thanks!
>
> Also handy for storage in bathrooms in small
> appartments/condos.
SWMBO really lit up on this one! She's a quilter and thinks this
is a wizard way to store her large cutting mat and templates -
which currently try to hide behind various pieces of furniture
and gather dust between uses. I think it's a great idea!
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA
"Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am preparing to build some kitchen cabinets and was looking at
> options for making the installation easier.
>
> I was planing on just making flat bottoms and installing them on a 2x4
> frame (leveled and anchored first) and then putting a face on the 2x4
> to finish it off.
>
<snip>
> And finally, I have seen these leveling legs that attach to the bottom
> of the cabinet. You just have to install a special toe kick that clips
> onto the legs. I just worry how these would hold up. Are they strong
> enough to hold a solid stone top?
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on these options? Any preferences?
> Pros/Cons...or any other ideas.
>
> Appreciate any advice in advance.
>
>
> bob
Having built 4 complete kitchens for different houses I've lived in, I find
it difficult to understand the continuation of frame style construction.
The last three I built were essentially Euro type construction and were
definityly much faster to construct than the first which was frame. In Euro
construction, which uses 3/4" sheet material for the sides, it is only
necessary to make a cut out for the toe kick.
On the kitchen I am just finishing I made my own levellers from 1 1/2" angle
iron and tapped for a 3/8" carriage bolt.
Bernard R
"B a r r y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 13:38:53 -0700,
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>
> >the older style of cabinet, with face frames, which give the cabinet
> >more strength independent of the wall or whatever it's bolted to, is a
> >design that evolved from antiquity and served among other things to
> >allow the cabinet to be carried from place to place. it's more like a
> >piece of furniture. some of our "traditional" cabinet designs clearly
> >illustrate this, such as the bathroom vanity with legs. it is a direct
> >descendant of the dry sink...
>
> When I was in Switzerland, I was under the impression that a lot of
> Euro cabinets can be knocked down, ala Ikea style.
>
> Barry
Though commercial Euro often depends on mechanical fasteners and particle
board. In my own case I inter-connect plywood sides with dovetailed rails,
dado the base/shelf to the sides and front and back rails and use 1/4" ply
in slots in the sides and rails for the back, the end result is a very stiff
jointed and glued structure, especially when screwed to a counter top.
Needless to say mine are built to be integral to the house.
Bernard R
I have used the leveling legs on several installs. They work great. I
also built drawers and used plastic wheels like these:
http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=2045&objectgroup_id=7&catid=6&filter=under%20bed
or go to Rockler and look up "bed box rollers"
This gave us a lot of extra space including one drawer (under the corner
cabinet) that held all our Christmas wrapping paper from year to year.
--
dbchamber at hotmail spam dot com
Remove the spam to reach me
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >And finally, I have seen these leveling legs that attach to the bottom
> >of the cabinet. You just have to install a special toe kick that clips
> >onto the legs. I just worry how these would hold up. Are they strong
> >enough to hold a solid stone top?
Thanks all for excellent ideas and advice!
bob
> I am preparing to build some kitchen cabinets and was looking at
> options for making the installation easier.
>
> I was planing on just making flat bottoms and installing them on a 2x4
> frame (leveled and anchored first) and then putting a face on the 2x4
> to finish it off.
>
> Then someone told me that they would build the toe kick into the
> cabinet and just shim and level it at install time. This would
> require notching all the sides for the toe kick and seems to me,
> complicating the building of the cabinet.
>
> And finally, I have seen these leveling legs that attach to the bottom
> of the cabinet. You just have to install a special toe kick that clips
> onto the legs. I just worry how these would hold up. Are they strong
> enough to hold a solid stone top?
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on these options? Any preferences?
> Pros/Cons...or any other ideas.
>
> Appreciate any advice in advance.
>
>
> bob
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> "Bob" <[email protected]> writes:
> >I am preparing to build some kitchen cabinets and was looking at
> >options for making the installation easier.
> >
> >I was planing on just making flat bottoms and installing them on a 2x4
> >frame (leveled and anchored first) and then putting a face on the 2x4
> >to finish it off.
>
> Read somewhere the other day about building baking sheet storage
> drawer(s) into the toe kicks - has anyone done this?
>
There have been several illustrations of this in "This Old House" and
"Fine Homebuilding" magazines over the past year or so. I am planning
to do this when I get started on the kitchen remodel project (real soon
now).
Bob wrote:
>I am preparing to build some kitchen cabinets and was looking at
>options for making the installation easier.
>I was planing on just making flat bottoms and installing them on a 2x4
>frame (leveled and anchored first) and then putting a face on the 2x4
>to finish it off.
This is called a ladder frame for all the obvious reason.
It's typically what I do though you should start with very
straight 2X material. One of the nice things about using
3 1/2" wide material is, you only need to put 1/2" pad
material at all the spots where you want it to touch the
floor and the cabinets will automagically be at the "more
conventional" 4". You can use the tabs for screwing the
assembly to the floor. Also, 1 X 4 material works fine.
>Then someone told me that they would build the toe kick into the
>cabinet and just shim and level it at install time. This would require
>notching all the sides for the toe kick and seems to me, complicating
>the building of the cabinet.
Acknowledged and I agree though it eliminates a step later.
You have to work out the trade off.
>And finally, I have seen these leveling legs that attach to the bottom
>of the cabinet. You just have to install a special toe kick that clips
>onto the legs. I just worry how these would hold up. Are they strong
>enough to hold a solid stone top?
With casework permanently attached you don't need to be so
bullet proof. In other words, the cabinets are sitting on
top of the legs. Without the cabinets being moved left to
right/front to back, what kind of stresses are put on the
legs?
>Does anyone have any opinions on these options? Any preferences?
>Pros/Cons...or any other ideas.
As I said, I like the ladder frames. After the install all
that's left to do is apply the finished toe board and base
shoe.
UA100
<[email protected]>
> another consideration is efficiency of materials. with a separate kick
> you can just get 3 cabinet sides onto the 8' length of a sheet of
> plywood. if the kicks are integral you only get 2 with a lot left
> over.
That depends upon width and style.
For example: With a traditional face frame 27" X 24" X 34 1/2" cabinet
(fairly standard, drawer size kitchen base cabinet), I get 4 end panels with
(toe kick built-in) out of 1 4x8 sheet of plywood.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/08/04
"B a r r y" wrote in message
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>
> >the older style of cabinet, with face frames, which give the cabinet
> >more strength independent of the wall or whatever it's bolted to, is a
> >design that evolved from antiquity and served among other things to
> >allow the cabinet to be carried from place to place. it's more like a
> >piece of furniture. some of our "traditional" cabinet designs clearly
> >illustrate this, such as the bathroom vanity with legs. it is a direct
> >descendant of the dry sink...
>
> When I was in Switzerland, I was under the impression that a lot of
> Euro cabinets can be knocked down, ala Ikea style.
Your impression was correct. You don't see many North American kitchen
cabinets, if any, moved from house to house (even the hybrid cabinet adopted
by North American manufacturers and based on the European design), but with
the European 32mm cabinet system, aka "frameless European cabinets", it is
not uncommon to see their highly modular nature being utilized by European
owners to take them from residence to residence in many countries.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/08/04
I've used the adjustable feet for built in cabinets before and never worried
about loading. If you are building individual cabinets, then the counter top
will be head up my many pairs of these feet. I wouldn't worry about it. If
its still a concern, the use your 2x4 method. That will definately provide
enough load capability. If you do, I would make sure to hand the face frame
down past the bottom of the cabinet. That will hide any imperfections in
fitting the toe kick.
A couple of years ago, the home contruction magazine related to FWW ran an
article on installing kitchen cabinets. They used a 2x4 base and standard
carcases built off site. Once they were in a true, the ripped down face
frames and matched the doors. The face frame were continuous between the
carcases and there for helped to tie them together. It also removed the
joint between the two cabinets. Seemed like a nice way to make semi built
ins using standard parts.
Bernie
"Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am preparing to build some kitchen cabinets and was looking at
> options for making the installation easier.
>
> I was planing on just making flat bottoms and installing them on a 2x4
> frame (leveled and anchored first) and then putting a face on the 2x4
> to finish it off.
>
> Then someone told me that they would build the toe kick into the
> cabinet and just shim and level it at install time. This would require
> notching all the sides for the toe kick and seems to me, complicating
> the building of the cabinet.
>
> And finally, I have seen these leveling legs that attach to the bottom
> of the cabinet. You just have to install a special toe kick that clips
> onto the legs. I just worry how these would hold up. Are they strong
> enough to hold a solid stone top?
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on these options? Any preferences?
> Pros/Cons...or any other ideas.
>
> Appreciate any advice in advance.
>
>
> bob
<[email protected]> wrote in message
> um...
> "with a separate kick you can just get 3 cabinet sides onto the
> 8'length of a sheet of plywood"
>
> note that reference to the 8' length, and nowhere a reference to
> width?
I know what you said ... but you stated it solely in the context of "another
consideration is efficiency of materials."
Which was the thrust of your post ,and apparently your reason for posting,
was it not?
I simply pointed out, with an example, that the difference in designing a
cabinet with or without a toe kick, does NOT necessarily have a "efficiency
of materials" component that is of any concern.
Without regard for grain direction, i.e. a painted cabinet, there can be
just as much (if not more in some instances) "efficiency of materials" with
a built-in toe kick, as without.
One would NOT get that impression from your original post ... sorry if you
took it as an attack.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/08/04.
"Bernard Randall" wrote in message
> Having built 4 complete kitchens for different houses I've lived in, I
find
> it difficult to understand the continuation of frame style construction.
> The last three I built were essentially Euro type construction and were
> definityly much faster to construct than the first which was frame.
It's like cars or colors, a matter of preference. I personally prefer the
more traditional look of the modern "face frame" cabinet. Euro "frameless"
cabinets have a more modern appearance to my eye.
One of the original intentions of the Euro style, "frameless" cabinet was
portability for the European owner, who often took his cabinets with him
when he changed houses. Now a days that style is unfortunately often used by
cost cutting builders as an excuse to build an inferior product, and further
justified by the crowd who thinks kitchen cabinets should only last about 10
to 15 years, at most.
Using modern construction techniques, there is really not much difference
when building the actual boxes themselves. In my experience building both,
the face frame adds considerable strength to the whole assembly.
> In Euro construction, which uses 3/4" sheet material for the sides, it is
only
> necessary to make a cut out for the toe kick.
Depending upon the method of construction, the same goes with today's "face
frame" style cabinet.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/08/04
Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
snippage
>
> I like surveying the site first and running a level line around the
> area where the cabinets are to be placed.
>
> Back in the shop I'll taper some 3/4" ply for the fronts and backs of
> ladder frames to sit the boxes on (two thicknesses for the back and
> the front - framing lumber doesn't really cut it.) I cut the 3/4" ply
> crossmembers all at four inches of width and set them to the bottom of
> the frame.
>
Possibly dumb question: What do you mean by 'taper' in this case?
BTW, I like the idea of using doubled ply for the ladder frame. Much
faster, and more consistent than the tubafours readily available...
Patriarch
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 13:38:53 -0700,
[email protected] wrote:
>the older style of cabinet, with face frames, which give the cabinet
>more strength independent of the wall or whatever it's bolted to, is a
>design that evolved from antiquity and served among other things to
>allow the cabinet to be carried from place to place. it's more like a
>piece of furniture. some of our "traditional" cabinet designs clearly
>illustrate this, such as the bathroom vanity with legs. it is a direct
>descendant of the dry sink...
When I was in Switzerland, I was under the impression that a lot of
Euro cabinets can be knocked down, ala Ikea style.
Barry
"Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I am preparing to build some kitchen cabinets and was looking at
> options for making the installation easier.
>
> I was planing on just making flat bottoms and installing them on a 2x4
> frame (leveled and anchored first) and then putting a face on the 2x4
> to finish it off.
>
> Then someone told me that they would build the toe kick into the
> cabinet and just shim and level it at install time. This would require
> notching all the sides for the toe kick and seems to me, complicating
> the building of the cabinet.
>
I have found it is easier and more efficient to make the carcase and
toe kick units separately, given the realities of making kitchen
cabinets with the resources of a hobby woodworker. The design is
basically as you describe, although I suggest milling the 2 x material
so it is truly straight and flat, or, alternatively, using plywood.
The more accurate the base, the easier and better the installation
will be. A 1/4 ply panel, scribed to the floor, gets tacked to the
front for finish.
> And finally, I have seen these leveling legs that attach to the bottom
> of the cabinet. You just have to install a special toe kick that clips
> onto the legs. I just worry how these would hold up. Are they strong
> enough to hold a solid stone top?
I used these legs for a freestanding storage unit and was suprised by
how rugged they are. I can see where they would be very handy for
people who must install many cabinets quickly. Can't see the huge
advantage for a hobbyist doing their own work, though.
> Does anyone have any opinions on these options? Any preferences?
> Pros/Cons...or any other ideas.
>
> Appreciate any advice in advance.
>
>
> bob
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 05:55:23 -0000, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I am preparing to build some kitchen cabinets and was looking at
>options for making the installation easier.
>
>I was planing on just making flat bottoms and installing them on a 2x4
>frame (leveled and anchored first) and then putting a face on the 2x4
>to finish it off.
I prefer this way for multiple boxes, I prefer toe kicks as part of
the cabinet with single cabinets, such as a vanity.
I also use the box on frame method for window seats and bookcases.
Barry
Mine is more concerned about material storage for quilting. I posted
a storage I made to one of the binaries groups recently, can send JPGs
to you if desired from one former Aramco-er to another. S.F.
1947-1950 when they moved to NY.
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:03:23 -0500, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 13:40:18 -0500, Morris Dovey
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>
>>>> Read somewhere the other day about building baking sheet
>>>> storage drawer(s) into the toe kicks - has anyone done
>>>> this?
>>>
>>> Scott...
>>>
>>> Why didn't /I/ ever think of that? What a great idea!
>>> Thanks!
>>
>> Also handy for storage in bathrooms in small
>> appartments/condos.
>
>SWMBO really lit up on this one! She's a quilter and thinks this
>is a wizard way to store her large cutting mat and templates -
>which currently try to hide behind various pieces of furniture
>and gather dust between uses. I think it's a great idea!
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 17:50:13 -0400, "David Chamberlain"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> I have used the leveling legs on several installs. They work great. I
>also built drawers and used plastic wheels like these:
>
>http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=2045&objectgroup_id=7&catid=6&filter=under%20bed
>
>or go to Rockler and look up "bed box rollers"
>
>This gave us a lot of extra space including one drawer (under the corner
>cabinet) that held all our Christmas wrapping paper from year to year.
I don't care for the levelers. I don't like having something
mechanical in the mix that might go out of adjustment over time.
That's just me.
YMMV.
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret)
Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
Website: http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
<[email protected]> wrote in message ..
> On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 12:15:14 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:
>
> ><[email protected]>
> >
> >> another consideration is efficiency of materials. with a separate kick
> >> you can just get 3 cabinet sides onto the 8' length of a sheet of
> >> plywood. if the kicks are integral you only get 2 with a lot left
> >> over.
> >
> >That depends upon width and style.
> >
> >For example: With a traditional face frame 27" X 24" X 34 1/2" cabinet
> >(fairly standard, drawer size kitchen base cabinet), I get 4 end panels
with
> >(toe kick built-in) out of 1 4x8 sheet of plywood.
>
> read my post again. the 3 parts fitting in the 8' dimension addresses
> the vertical dimension only. if the cut *width* of the panel used for
> the cabinet side is 24 or less and the kicks are 3-1/2" or more high
> and not integral and the finish height of the counter is not more than
> 36" you'll get *6* sides from a full sheet.
You read your post again. It is a blanket statement, stating a finite number
of cabinet sides, with and without built-in toe kicks, that was not
necessarily correct.
I said it "depends", gave you an example ..and you now apparently agree.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/08/04
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 03:51:36 -0500, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Bob wrote:
>>I am preparing to build some kitchen cabinets and was looking at
>>options for making the installation easier.
>
>>I was planing on just making flat bottoms and installing them on a 2x4
>>frame (leveled and anchored first) and then putting a face on the 2x4
>>to finish it off.
>
>This is called a ladder frame for all the obvious reason.
>It's typically what I do though you should start with very
>straight 2X material. One of the nice things about using
>3 1/2" wide material is, you only need to put 1/2" pad
>material at all the spots where you want it to touch the
>floor and the cabinets will automagically be at the "more
>conventional" 4". You can use the tabs for screwing the
>assembly to the floor. Also, 1 X 4 material works fine.
>
another consideration is efficiency of materials. with a separate kick
you can just get 3 cabinet sides onto the 8' length of a sheet of
plywood. if the kicks are integral you only get 2 with a lot left
over.
>>Then someone told me that they would build the toe kick into the
>>cabinet and just shim and level it at install time. This would require
>>notching all the sides for the toe kick and seems to me, complicating
>>the building of the cabinet.
too, with modern materials, mdf core sheet goods and the like, a
cabinet can get pretty heavy. anything to make it a little lighter and
easier to manuver through a doorway is a good thing as far as I'm
concerned.
>
>Acknowledged and I agree though it eliminates a step later.
>You have to work out the trade off.
>
>>And finally, I have seen these leveling legs that attach to the bottom
>>of the cabinet. You just have to install a special toe kick that clips
>>onto the legs. I just worry how these would hold up. Are they strong
>>enough to hold a solid stone top?
they're fine. they also give more options for the use of the space
beneath the cabinet. it's a lot easier to snake a wire or service a
water line if you don't have to remove the cabinet....
>
>With casework permanently attached you don't need to be so
>bullet proof. In other words, the cabinets are sitting on
>top of the legs. Without the cabinets being moved left to
>right/front to back, what kind of stresses are put on the
>legs?
>
>>Does anyone have any opinions on these options? Any preferences?
>>Pros/Cons...or any other ideas.
>
>As I said, I like the ladder frames. After the install all
>that's left to do is apply the finished toe board and base
>shoe.
>
>UA100
"Bob" <[email protected]> writes:
>I am preparing to build some kitchen cabinets and was looking at
>options for making the installation easier.
>
>I was planing on just making flat bottoms and installing them on a 2x4
>frame (leveled and anchored first) and then putting a face on the 2x4
>to finish it off.
Read somewhere the other day about building baking sheet storage
drawer(s) into the toe kicks - has anyone done this?
scott
[email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:03:23 -0500, Morris Dovey
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 13:40:18 -0500, Morris Dovey
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Read somewhere the other day about building baking
>>>>> sheet storage drawer(s) into the toe kicks - has
>>>>> anyone done this?
>>>>
>>>> Why didn't /I/ ever think of that? What a great idea!
>>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Also handy for storage in bathrooms in small
>>> appartments/condos.
>>
>> SWMBO really lit up on this one! She's a quilter and thinks
>> this is a wizard way to store her large cutting mat and
>> templates - which currently try to hide behind various
>> pieces of furniture and gather dust between uses. I think
>> it's a great idea!
>
> Mine is more concerned about material storage for quilting. I
> posted a storage I made to one of the binaries groups
> recently, can send JPGs to you if desired from one former
> Aramco-er to another. S.F. 1947-1950 when they moved to NY.
Thanks. We're trying to figure out how to store several dozen
quilts. I've been giving thanks that SWMBO won't use a sewing
machine and takes tiny stitches - else we'd need a cedar /barn/.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 15:02:39 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>One of the original intentions of the Euro style, "frameless" cabinet was
>portability for the European owner, who often took his cabinets with him
>when he changed houses.
I think you have that backwards. today's "euro" style cabinets are an
offshoot of the bauhaus school, and were designed to be mass produced
efficiently and assembled easily by *less* skilled labor.
the older style of cabinet, with face frames, which give the cabinet
more strength independent of the wall or whatever it's bolted to, is a
design that evolved from antiquity and served among other things to
allow the cabinet to be carried from place to place. it's more like a
piece of furniture. some of our "traditional" cabinet designs clearly
illustrate this, such as the bathroom vanity with legs. it is a direct
descendant of the dry sink...
This is the way I do it too. In my kitchen, I did something a little bit
different and used that black vinyl cove base instead of the usual 1x and
shoe. The effect was awesome and it went in a lot faster too. It trimmed out
the new floor perfectly and added a different highlight under the cabinets.
"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bob wrote:
> >I am preparing to build some kitchen cabinets and was looking at
> >options for making the installation easier.
>
> >I was planing on just making flat bottoms and installing them on a 2x4
> >frame (leveled and anchored first) and then putting a face on the 2x4
> >to finish it off.
>
> This is called a ladder frame for all the obvious reason.
> It's typically what I do though you should start with very
> straight 2X material. One of the nice things about using
> 3 1/2" wide material is, you only need to put 1/2" pad
> material at all the spots where you want it to touch the
> floor and the cabinets will automagically be at the "more
> conventional" 4". You can use the tabs for screwing the
> assembly to the floor. Also, 1 X 4 material works fine.
>
> >Then someone told me that they would build the toe kick into the
> >cabinet and just shim and level it at install time. This would require
> >notching all the sides for the toe kick and seems to me, complicating
> >the building of the cabinet.
>
> Acknowledged and I agree though it eliminates a step later.
> You have to work out the trade off.
>
> >And finally, I have seen these leveling legs that attach to the bottom
> >of the cabinet. You just have to install a special toe kick that clips
> >onto the legs. I just worry how these would hold up. Are they strong
> >enough to hold a solid stone top?
>
> With casework permanently attached you don't need to be so
> bullet proof. In other words, the cabinets are sitting on
> top of the legs. Without the cabinets being moved left to
> right/front to back, what kind of stresses are put on the
> legs?
>
> >Does anyone have any opinions on these options? Any preferences?
> >Pros/Cons...or any other ideas.
>
> As I said, I like the ladder frames. After the install all
> that's left to do is apply the finished toe board and base
> shoe.
>
> UA100
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 03:51:36 -0500, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Bob wrote:
>>I am preparing to build some kitchen cabinets and was looking at
>>options for making the installation easier.
>
>>I was planing on just making flat bottoms and installing them on a 2x4
>>frame (leveled and anchored first) and then putting a face on the 2x4
>>to finish it off.
>
>This is called a ladder frame for all the obvious reason.
>It's typically what I do though you should start with very
>straight 2X material.
I use ripped down 3/4" ply instead of 2x. It's always straight, very
easy to install, and it's rare that a cabinet project dosen't have
enough material left over already. The leftover stuff can also have a
finish applied, PRESTO, instant matching toe kick!
Use small pieces as doublers at corners and midspan junctions.
Barry
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 15:44:14 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message ..
>> On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 12:15:14 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:
>>
>> ><[email protected]>
>> >
>> >> another consideration is efficiency of materials. with a separate kick
>> >> you can just get 3 cabinet sides onto the 8' length of a sheet of
>> >> plywood. if the kicks are integral you only get 2 with a lot left
>> >> over.
>> >
>> >That depends upon width and style.
>> >
>> >For example: With a traditional face frame 27" X 24" X 34 1/2" cabinet
>> >(fairly standard, drawer size kitchen base cabinet), I get 4 end panels
>with
>> >(toe kick built-in) out of 1 4x8 sheet of plywood.
>
>>
>> read my post again. the 3 parts fitting in the 8' dimension addresses
>> the vertical dimension only. if the cut *width* of the panel used for
>> the cabinet side is 24 or less and the kicks are 3-1/2" or more high
>> and not integral and the finish height of the counter is not more than
>> 36" you'll get *6* sides from a full sheet.
>
>You read your post again. It is a blanket statement, stating a finite number
>of cabinet sides, with and without built-in toe kicks, that was not
>necessarily correct.
um...
"with a separate kick you can just get 3 cabinet sides onto the
8'length of a sheet of plywood"
note that reference to the 8' length, and nowhere a reference to
width?
>
>I said it "depends", gave you an example ..and you now apparently agree.
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 12:15:14 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
><[email protected]>
>
>> another consideration is efficiency of materials. with a separate kick
>> you can just get 3 cabinet sides onto the 8' length of a sheet of
>> plywood. if the kicks are integral you only get 2 with a lot left
>> over.
>
>That depends upon width and style.
>
>For example: With a traditional face frame 27" X 24" X 34 1/2" cabinet
>(fairly standard, drawer size kitchen base cabinet), I get 4 end panels with
>(toe kick built-in) out of 1 4x8 sheet of plywood.
read my post again. the 3 parts fitting in the 8' dimension addresses
the vertical dimension only. if the cut *width* of the panel used for
the cabinet side is 24 or less and the kicks are 3-1/2" or more high
and not integral and the finish height of the counter is not more than
36" you'll get *6* sides from a full sheet.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
> On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 15:02:39 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >One of the original intentions of the Euro style, "frameless" cabinet was
> >portability for the European owner, who often took his cabinets with him
> >when he changed houses.
>
>
> I think you have that backwards. today's "euro" style cabinets are an
> offshoot of the bauhaus school, and were designed to be mass produced
> efficiently and assembled easily by *less* skilled labor.
>
> the older style of cabinet, with face frames, which give the cabinet
> more strength independent of the wall or whatever it's bolted to, is a
> design that evolved from antiquity and served among other things to
> allow the cabinet to be carried from place to place. it's more like a
> piece of furniture. some of our "traditional" cabinet designs clearly
> illustrate this, such as the bathroom vanity with legs. it is a direct
> descendant of the dry sink...
Quite the contrary ... it is you that has it "backwards".
The traditional kitchen cabinet was built into the structures walls, most
often with fixed shelves, most often requiring the interior walls to be
painted as part of the cabinet, most often with a frame and/or face frame,
and were decidedly NON-portable.
The advent of the "frameless" Euro style cabinet made portability and ease
of installation a design feature.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/08/04
"Bob" wrote in message
> Does anyone have any opinions on these options? Any preferences?
> Pros/Cons...or any other ideas.
It really depends upon the circumstances at the site.
For a long run of base cabinets,the separate base is almost always a faster,
easier and truer install - providing you use straight stock for the base
and your cabinets are square (which they will be if you did them, but not
necessarily if someone else did ---- otherwise you end up shimming boxes
AND base).
For stand-alone base cabinets, like maybe those found on either side of an
appliance in many installations, I will consider building the toe kick into
the cabinet, as it is often quicker and less work doing it in the shop than
building multiple bases on site.
In the strictly-my-observation-and-opinion category, a base cabinet with a
properly built-in toe kick will be substantially stronger, and less subject
to racking, than a box without, but it may a trade-off in time, both in
fabrication and installation.
For my last personal kitchen, I built-in the toe kicks on all the cabinets
... but it was new construction and an open ended installation. I also do
quite a few one-off base cabinets for a couple of local remodelers and
always build in the toe kick in those.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/08/04
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 05:55:23 -0000, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I am preparing to build some kitchen cabinets and was looking at
>options for making the installation easier.
>
>I was planing on just making flat bottoms and installing them on a 2x4
>frame (leveled and anchored first) and then putting a face on the 2x4
>to finish it off.
>
>Then someone told me that they would build the toe kick into the
>cabinet and just shim and level it at install time. This would require
>notching all the sides for the toe kick and seems to me, complicating
>the building of the cabinet.
>
>And finally, I have seen these leveling legs that attach to the bottom
>of the cabinet. You just have to install a special toe kick that clips
>onto the legs. I just worry how these would hold up. Are they strong
>enough to hold a solid stone top?
>
>Does anyone have any opinions on these options? Any preferences?
>Pros/Cons...or any other ideas.
I like surveying the site first and running a level line around the
area where the cabinets are to be placed.
Back in the shop I'll taper some 3/4" ply for the fronts and backs of
ladder frames to sit the boxes on (two thicknesses for the back and
the front - framing lumber doesn't really cut it.) I cut the 3/4" ply
crossmembers all at four inches of width and set them to the bottom of
the frame.
If I still have to shim when I get onsite, I'll shim with pieces of
step flashing - most of the boxes I've built over the last fifteen
years or so get granite on them, and I don't want any compression
from softwood shims.
I fasten the boxes to the frame only on the fronts and backs of the
ladder.
Doing this I wind up with a very solid and quick installation - and
it's easier to make money/time in the shop than in the field.
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret)
Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
Website: http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1