So I've got my raw hard maple butcher block countertops and I've been
experimenting with poly finishes on the underside. I have been using Minwax
clear and satin oil based poly, trying some patches of wood with full
strength and some with poly diluted with mineral spirits. So far I don't
see much difference between the two although the diluted obviously goes on
thinner. I have 3 coats of clear poly full strength and it doesn't look all
that different from the diluted test patch, except you can feel the
difference to the touch. I'm beginning to wonder what the point is if I put
on 3 full strength or 6 diluted and end up with the same thing? I'm
concerned that too few coats of diluted poly won't provide the protection I
need. How do you know when enough is enough, and is it usually recommended
to lightly sand the final satin poly coat?
And finally, concerning wood protection I am finding out just now that poly
isn't really impervious to liquids. I'm hearing from Minwax directly that
the oil poly is more resistant than water based, but it is not going to
protect the wood from all liquids such as a wet glass of ice water. Now I'm
wondering if I'm barking up the wrong tree with poly. I'm being told now
that the only true ironclad treatment to protect the wood is conversion
varnish that has to be applied with a compressed air spray application,
which I cannot really do practically. I've called a couple of guys to get a
price on this, but may just end up with the poly after all, and I guess just
cross my fingers that the poly will do OK. Maybe I need a couple of extra
coats...
Any thoughts or advice on this long winded message are appreciated.
dwhite
"Dan White" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> So I've got my raw hard maple butcher block countertops and I've been
> experimenting with poly finishes on the underside. I have been using Minwax
> clear and satin oil based poly, trying some patches of wood with full
> strength and some with poly diluted with mineral spirits. So far I don't
> see much difference between the two although the diluted obviously goes on
> thinner. I have 3 coats of clear poly full strength and it doesn't look all
> that different from the diluted test patch, except you can feel the
> difference to the touch. I'm beginning to wonder what the point is if I put
> on 3 full strength or 6 diluted and end up with the same thing? I'm
> concerned that too few coats of diluted poly won't provide the protection I
> need. How do you know when enough is enough, and is it usually recommended
> to lightly sand the final satin poly coat?
>
> And finally, concerning wood protection I am finding out just now that poly
> isn't really impervious to liquids. I'm hearing from Minwax directly that
> the oil poly is more resistant than water based, but it is not going to
> protect the wood from all liquids such as a wet glass of ice water. Now I'm
> wondering if I'm barking up the wrong tree with poly. I'm being told now
> that the only true ironclad treatment to protect the wood is conversion
> varnish that has to be applied with a compressed air spray application,
> which I cannot really do practically. I've called a couple of guys to get a
> price on this, but may just end up with the poly after all, and I guess just
> cross my fingers that the poly will do OK. Maybe I need a couple of extra
> coats...
>
> Any thoughts or advice on this long winded message are appreciated.
>
> dwhite
Hi Dan,
Regular poly should hold up well. It may just be a personal
preference, but I'm not very fond of Minwax. In my experience,it
doesn't hold up very well. I prefer Sherwin Williams brand,
personally. If you have a little more time between coats, varathane
works well. We built maple tables for the local restuarant. They held
up perfectly until it was turned into a bar. Finish is still fine but
they're dented all to #%@#. I wouldn't use thinner either. YOu want a
good coverage and that'll take too many coats. Jana
Dan White wrote:
> need. How do you know when enough is enough, and is it usually
> recommended to lightly sand the final satin poly coat?
I think the main idea behind thinning poly is to make the results look more
like shellac. Not dipped in plastic, but sort of hugging the grain and
showing off your good surface preparation, instead of burying it under a
layer of amber goo.
> And finally, concerning wood protection I am finding out just now that
> poly
> isn't really impervious to liquids. I'm hearing from Minwax directly that
> the oil poly is more resistant than water based, but it is not going to
> protect the wood from all liquids such as a wet glass of ice water. Now
I wouldn't worry too much about this. I used poly on my first full-scale
project, what feels like three lifetimes ago. It's a plant stand. The
plants regularly "pee" on it, and I designed the shelves so that they would
trap any spillage and keep it from leaking onto the floor. I try to mop up
spills, but this thing has been exposed to plenty of pot overflows that
went un-noticed, and it still looks spiffy keen going on a decade later.
(Spiffy keen to the extent that it can, mind you. I've learned a lot since
this project.)
Unless you're building a boat, poly is probably fine. It will withstand
moisture abuse much better than shellac or lacquer. Though don't discount
all the other possibilities I haven't mentioned. There are more finishes
than you can shake a stick at, as someone will probably be along to tell
you about shortly.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:18:41 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Stop by some local bars. The small ones. It's very common for small bars
>to build a bar out of some stuff and then pour the poly to it. I mean pour.
>They'll end up with a really plastic finish on the top of the bar.
This is not polyurethane, but a two-part heavy build epoxy finish that
usually levels to about 1/16" to 1/8" thick per coat. It is very
strong and totally waterproof (and 'mostly' solvent-proof, acetone and
some of the heavier paint removers will damage it after prolonged
exposure). The application of which I explained in another recent
thread. While this stuff is good, it also leaves the aforementioned
'plastic' look, and while not difficult to apply if done right, is
time-consuming. If damaged it can be recoated to fix the blemishes,
but you have to recoat the whole surface, and this also makes it
another 1/16" thick or so. This looks silly rather fast.
Have you considered using the two-part epoxy/varnish that is used in
many restaraunts on bar counters (mentioned elsewhere in this thread)?
It's extremely tough, and while it can be scratched, you can also put
a coat or two of poly or spar varnish on top of it to make it clear
again once it gets scratched up enough that it needs to be redone (or
re-pour it, though it gets too thick that way). Any wear and tear that
would damage this would also go through poly and possibly into the
wood, allowing moisture in. It does have that 'plastic-coated' look
that most people on this group seem to hate, but if you really need
something tough, this may be the way to go. Cost could be an issue,
though. Look up info on Envirotex Lite, Aristocrat, and Famowood Glaze
Coat.
"Robert Bonomi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Dan White <[email protected]> wrote:
> >"Jana" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >> Hi Dan,
> >> Regular poly should hold up well. It may just be a personal
> >> preference, but I'm not very fond of Minwax. In my experience,it
> >> doesn't hold up very well. I prefer Sherwin Williams brand,
> >> personally. If you have a little more time between coats, varathane
> >> works well.
> >
> >Is the varathane Sherwin Williams' brand of poly? I've been doing some
> >testing on my counter bottoms and will go pick up some of this stuff and
try
> >it out.
>
> Varathane is a RUSTOLEUM CORP trademark.
>
> In oil-based (I'm old-fashioned) polyurethanes, Benjamin Moore and ZAR are
> good stuff.
>
> Also try, Behlen's Rock Hard Table Top Varnish. It is *not* a
polyurethane,
> _Very_ durable.
>
Anybody else use Sherwin Williams? There's a SW store nearby me and it
would be convenient for me to use them rather than go ordering something
online and then finding I don't have enough. (I have lots of wood to
finish.)
dwhite
In article <[email protected]>,
Dan White <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Jana" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Hi Dan,
>> Regular poly should hold up well. It may just be a personal
>> preference, but I'm not very fond of Minwax. In my experience,it
>> doesn't hold up very well. I prefer Sherwin Williams brand,
>> personally. If you have a little more time between coats, varathane
>> works well.
>
>Is the varathane Sherwin Williams' brand of poly? I've been doing some
>testing on my counter bottoms and will go pick up some of this stuff and try
>it out.
Varathane is a RUSTOLEUM CORP trademark.
In oil-based (I'm old-fashioned) polyurethanes, Benjamin Moore and ZAR are
good stuff.
Also try, Behlen's Rock Hard Table Top Varnish. It is *not* a polyurethane,
_Very_ durable.
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Equally
> hard as it may be to believe the sexy wench behind the bar may sometimes
be
> too wrapped up in the advances of the "my-god-you're-beautiful,
> my-wife-doesn't-understand-me" idiot on the other side of the bar to
notice,
> and the puddles can lay there for a while. One wipe with a wet bar rag
and
> it's a brand new bar. Well - at least under the same lights that made
that
> toothless, tattooed, what-ever-it-is behind the bar appear to be a sexy
> wench.
I'm still trying to hire a sexy wench for the counter. Good for business,
ya' know?
dwhite
Those Behlen folks have a web site? DAGS and came up dry.
bob g.
Robert Bonomi wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Dan White <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Jana" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> Hi Dan,
>>> Regular poly should hold up well. It may just be a personal
>>>preference, but I'm not very fond of Minwax. In my experience,it
>>>doesn't hold up very well. I prefer Sherwin Williams brand,
>>>personally. If you have a little more time between coats, varathane
>>>works well.
>>
>>Is the varathane Sherwin Williams' brand of poly? I've been doing some
>>testing on my counter bottoms and will go pick up some of this stuff and try
>>it out.
>
>
> Varathane is a RUSTOLEUM CORP trademark.
>
> In oil-based (I'm old-fashioned) polyurethanes, Benjamin Moore and ZAR are
> good stuff.
>
> Also try, Behlen's Rock Hard Table Top Varnish. It is *not* a polyurethane,
> _Very_ durable.
>
>
>
"Dan White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Dan White wrote:
> >
> > > need. How do you know when enough is enough, and is it usually
> > > recommended to lightly sand the final satin poly coat?
> >
> > I think the main idea behind thinning poly is to make the results look
> more
> > like shellac. Not dipped in plastic, but sort of hugging the grain and
> > showing off your good surface preparation, instead of burying it under a
> > layer of amber goo.
>
> I understand, but how do you know when enough is enough? I'm thinning
maybe
> 25% or so.
You can thin poly 50% if you want to - it won't hurt a thing. It will take
more coats to get a build up but it won't hurt anything.
>
>
> that's good to hear. I'm thinking I should use the poly in any case and
> deal with any problems down the road. I really don't want to spend more
$$$
> than I have on professional spraying of this conversion varnish. Maybe
> Minwax thought I was going to leave coffee and water on the counters for a
> week?
>
Stop by some local bars. The small ones. It's very common for small bars
to build a bar out of some stuff and then pour the poly to it. I mean pour.
They'll end up with a really plastic finish on the top of the bar. Hard as
it may be to believe, the patrons in these establishments often spill water
(yeah, right...), alcohol, beer, and Budweiser on these bar tops. Equally
hard as it may be to believe the sexy wench behind the bar may sometimes be
too wrapped up in the advances of the "my-god-you're-beautiful,
my-wife-doesn't-understand-me" idiot on the other side of the bar to notice,
and the puddles can lay there for a while. One wipe with a wet bar rag and
it's a brand new bar. Well - at least under the same lights that made that
toothless, tattooed, what-ever-it-is behind the bar appear to be a sexy
wench.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dan White wrote:
> >>
> >
> > Anybody else use Sherwin Williams? There's a SW store nearby me and it
> > would be convenient for me to use them rather than go ordering something
> > online and then finding I don't have enough. (I have lots of wood to
> > finish.)
>
> If you're in the US the BORG generally have Varathane in stock.
>
I was at Home Depot today but couldn't find any Varathane. I did find spar
varnish (marine) and wondered whether that might do the same job as the
clear poly but maybe be even tougher against water spills? Any downside to
using this stuff instead of poly?
dwhite
Dan,
If I recall, this is a commercial establishment. Even so, it depends
on the type of traffic you will have on these counters. If you are
serving food on them and wiping them down several times a day, or if
they are at the cash register whit goods beings shuffled across them
all the time, then you should go with a conversion varnish or other
hard ass finish.
Assuming, they are more of display counters, then poly will be fine.
Regarding how much and what method these are the decision criteria.
Wiping is the easiest way for a non-professional to end up with
professional results. By appling super thined coats you don't have the
opportunity for sags, runs or thready brush marks. If you can get the
look you want with brushing, then that will save you time and get a
better build up.
If you can stand the plastic feel, it's probably best to put lots of
coats.
Regarding sanding. If you are brushing on thick coats, you may need to
sand between coats. Poly coats sit on top of each other they don't
melt into each other. However, if you brush the next coat before that
last one has fully cured, there is no need to sand. Most cans will
give you the time lines.
Final sanding depends on how smooth you applied it in the first place
and how flat you want it. Once you have lots of coats, you can use
some 400 to really smooth it out with some wet sanding. Then apply a
last coat and it;s like ice. You can also use 0000 steel wool and some
wax to seal the finish and control the gloss.
Depending on how you stuff is used wax might be more trouble than its
worth. It really makes thigs look nice but requires some maintenance.
Although in some case, wax is exactly how you keep it looking nice for
ever. Just buff once a week.
"Dan White" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> So I've got my raw hard maple butcher block countertops and I've been
> experimenting with poly finishes on the underside. I have been using Minwax
> clear and satin oil based poly, trying some patches of wood with full
> strength and some with poly diluted with mineral spirits. So far I don't
> see much difference between the two although the diluted obviously goes on
> thinner. I have 3 coats of clear poly full strength and it doesn't look all
> that different from the diluted test patch, except you can feel the
> difference to the touch. I'm beginning to wonder what the point is if I put
> on 3 full strength or 6 diluted and end up with the same thing? I'm
> concerned that too few coats of diluted poly won't provide the protection I
> need. How do you know when enough is enough, and is it usually recommended
> to lightly sand the final satin poly coat?
>
> And finally, concerning wood protection I am finding out just now that poly
> isn't really impervious to liquids. I'm hearing from Minwax directly that
> the oil poly is more resistant than water based, but it is not going to
> protect the wood from all liquids such as a wet glass of ice water. Now I'm
> wondering if I'm barking up the wrong tree with poly. I'm being told now
> that the only true ironclad treatment to protect the wood is conversion
> varnish that has to be applied with a compressed air spray application,
> which I cannot really do practically. I've called a couple of guys to get a
> price on this, but may just end up with the poly after all, and I guess just
> cross my fingers that the poly will do OK. Maybe I need a couple of extra
> coats...
>
> Any thoughts or advice on this long winded message are appreciated.
>
> dwhite
Dan,
I think you have the right idea. Poly for the people and raw for the
food prep. I would not wax the tops as it will just cause problems
with moisture getting caught in the finish and require buffing all the
time. Th only danger os very hot liquids sitting in place can cause
some blush but it would take some pretty hot stuff so you're likely
OK.
To keep the health department happy, you should find a butcher supply
vendor. They will have a specifc wood block sanitizer/conditioner you
can use weekly or so.
The smart health inspectors will know that studies have show that wood
has properties that actually kill bacteria. Something at the cellular
level of wood, for its natural defenses, actually ruptures the cell
walls of bacteria so it can't sustain life on wood. Plastic cutting
boards actually harbor bacteria in down in the scratches that even a
wash with hot, soapy, and bleach solutions can't easily kill.
BW
"Dan White" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Bill Wallace" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Dan,
> >
> > If I recall, this is a commercial establishment. Even so, it depends
> > on the type of traffic you will have on these counters. If you are
> > serving food on them and wiping them down several times a day, or if
> > they are at the cash register whit goods beings shuffled across them
> > all the time, then you should go with a conversion varnish or other
> > hard ass finish.
>
> Thanks Bill and Sam for the comments. Yes, this is a deli. I would say
> there are 5 main sections of the butcher block counter as follows: (1) I
> have a 14' (by 14") and a 12' shelf for people to eat off of, but we will
> not have glasses. Most everything will be take out so I will expect to have
> a cold snapple or coke sitting on the shelf while someone eats. (2) Also
> the checkout counter (7'x3') will be poly finished, although it doesn't have
> to be necessarily. I just thought this would be most durable. Food orders
> mostly will be shuffled across this counter, change, etc. I don't sell
> anything sharp or heavy, but you never know. (4)There is an L shaped
> self-serve coffee section with a 7'x3' run and a 4'x25" run on the L. I was
> most concerned about coffee stains. I tested a sample block that had been
> mineral oiled by spilling and leaving coffee on it and it did stain. I was
> under the impression that coffee would not harm the oil based poly finish.
> No spills will remain for more than a couple of hours at most I would
> expect. Of course with coffee equipment there is always the chance of a
> leaking fitting or something that might not be noticed right away. (5) There
> is the actual sandwich prep area with slicer and sandwich unit. This area
> is about 8' of counter and was going to finish it with mineral oil only due
> to food service. I do have to admit that the coffee and food prep counter
> is the same counter of 13' overall length. My plan was to poly the first 7'
> for the coffee area, and then go with just mineral oil for the rest. There
> would be a glass guard separating the two areas. Oh, there is also a 10'
> back counter for taking phone orders, paperwork, etc. I was also going to
> poly this section.
>
> So that is the gory detail on the application.
>
> >
> > Assuming, they are more of display counters, then poly will be fine.
> > Regarding how much and what method these are the decision criteria.
> >
> > Wiping is the easiest way for a non-professional to end up with
> > professional results. By appling super thined coats you don't have the
> > opportunity for sags, runs or thready brush marks. If you can get the
> > look you want with brushing, then that will save you time and get a
> > better build up.
> >
> > If you can stand the plastic feel, it's probably best to put lots of
> > coats.
>
> If I thin the poly and wipe or brush it on with 4 or 5 coats it seems like I
> will still have the feel of the natural wood, but will it protect as well?
>
> >
> > Regarding sanding. If you are brushing on thick coats, you may need to
> > sand between coats. Poly coats sit on top of each other they don't
> > melt into each other. However, if you brush the next coat before that
> > last one has fully cured, there is no need to sand. Most cans will
> > give you the time lines.
> >
> > Final sanding depends on how smooth you applied it in the first place
> > and how flat you want it. Once you have lots of coats, you can use
> > some 400 to really smooth it out with some wet sanding. Then apply a
> > last coat and it;s like ice. You can also use 0000 steel wool and some
> > wax to seal the finish and control the gloss.
>
> Regarding the wet sanding, is this just a matter of dipping the sandpaper in
> water, or are we talking about wetting with something like mineral oil or
> mineral spirits? I think I'd prefer to go without the wax because once I
> begin business in earnest I don't want to have to think too much about the
> counters. On the other hand if wax on top of poly is a good way to protect
> things further and keep it that way, then I guess I could try it. I could
> always remove the wax later.
>
> thanks,
> dwhite
>
> >
> > Depending on how you stuff is used wax might be more trouble than its
> > worth. It really makes thigs look nice but requires some maintenance.
> > Although in some case, wax is exactly how you keep it looking nice for
> > ever. Just buff once a week.
> >
> >
> > "Dan White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > So I've got my raw hard maple butcher block countertops and I've been
> > > experimenting with poly finishes on the underside. I have been using
> Minwax
> > > clear and satin oil based poly, trying some patches of wood with full
> > > strength and some with poly diluted with mineral spirits. So far I
> don't
> > > see much difference between the two although the diluted obviously goes
> on
> > > thinner. I have 3 coats of clear poly full strength and it doesn't look
> all
> > > that different from the diluted test patch, except you can feel the
> > > difference to the touch. I'm beginning to wonder what the point is if I
> put
> > > on 3 full strength or 6 diluted and end up with the same thing? I'm
> > > concerned that too few coats of diluted poly won't provide the
> protection I
> > > need. How do you know when enough is enough, and is it usually
> recommended
> > > to lightly sand the final satin poly coat?
> > >
> > > And finally, concerning wood protection I am finding out just now that
> poly
> > > isn't really impervious to liquids. I'm hearing from Minwax directly
> that
> > > the oil poly is more resistant than water based, but it is not going to
> > > protect the wood from all liquids such as a wet glass of ice water. Now
> I'm
> > > wondering if I'm barking up the wrong tree with poly. I'm being told
> now
> > > that the only true ironclad treatment to protect the wood is conversion
> > > varnish that has to be applied with a compressed air spray application,
> > > which I cannot really do practically. I've called a couple of guys to
> get a
> > > price on this, but may just end up with the poly after all, and I guess
> just
> > > cross my fingers that the poly will do OK. Maybe I need a couple of
> extra
> > > coats...
> > >
> > > Any thoughts or advice on this long winded message are appreciated.
> > >
> > > dwhite
Dan White wrote:
> "Robert Bonomi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Dan White <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >"Jana" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:[email protected]...
>> >>
>> >> Hi Dan,
>> >> Regular poly should hold up well. It may just be a personal
>> >> preference, but I'm not very fond of Minwax. In my experience,it
>> >> doesn't hold up very well. I prefer Sherwin Williams brand,
>> >> personally. If you have a little more time between coats, varathane
>> >> works well.
>> >
>> >Is the varathane Sherwin Williams' brand of poly? I've been doing some
>> >testing on my counter bottoms and will go pick up some of this stuff and
> try
>> >it out.
>>
>> Varathane is a RUSTOLEUM CORP trademark.
>>
>> In oil-based (I'm old-fashioned) polyurethanes, Benjamin Moore and ZAR
>> are good stuff.
>>
>> Also try, Behlen's Rock Hard Table Top Varnish. It is *not* a
> polyurethane,
>> _Very_ durable.
>>
>
> Anybody else use Sherwin Williams? There's a SW store nearby me and it
> would be convenient for me to use them rather than go ordering something
> online and then finding I don't have enough. (I have lots of wood to
> finish.)
If you're in the US the BORG generally have Varathane in stock.
> dwhite
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
"Bill Wallace" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dan,
>
> If I recall, this is a commercial establishment. Even so, it depends
> on the type of traffic you will have on these counters. If you are
> serving food on them and wiping them down several times a day, or if
> they are at the cash register whit goods beings shuffled across them
> all the time, then you should go with a conversion varnish or other
> hard ass finish.
Thanks Bill and Sam for the comments. Yes, this is a deli. I would say
there are 5 main sections of the butcher block counter as follows: (1) I
have a 14' (by 14") and a 12' shelf for people to eat off of, but we will
not have glasses. Most everything will be take out so I will expect to have
a cold snapple or coke sitting on the shelf while someone eats. (2) Also
the checkout counter (7'x3') will be poly finished, although it doesn't have
to be necessarily. I just thought this would be most durable. Food orders
mostly will be shuffled across this counter, change, etc. I don't sell
anything sharp or heavy, but you never know. (4)There is an L shaped
self-serve coffee section with a 7'x3' run and a 4'x25" run on the L. I was
most concerned about coffee stains. I tested a sample block that had been
mineral oiled by spilling and leaving coffee on it and it did stain. I was
under the impression that coffee would not harm the oil based poly finish.
No spills will remain for more than a couple of hours at most I would
expect. Of course with coffee equipment there is always the chance of a
leaking fitting or something that might not be noticed right away. (5) There
is the actual sandwich prep area with slicer and sandwich unit. This area
is about 8' of counter and was going to finish it with mineral oil only due
to food service. I do have to admit that the coffee and food prep counter
is the same counter of 13' overall length. My plan was to poly the first 7'
for the coffee area, and then go with just mineral oil for the rest. There
would be a glass guard separating the two areas. Oh, there is also a 10'
back counter for taking phone orders, paperwork, etc. I was also going to
poly this section.
So that is the gory detail on the application.
>
> Assuming, they are more of display counters, then poly will be fine.
> Regarding how much and what method these are the decision criteria.
>
> Wiping is the easiest way for a non-professional to end up with
> professional results. By appling super thined coats you don't have the
> opportunity for sags, runs or thready brush marks. If you can get the
> look you want with brushing, then that will save you time and get a
> better build up.
>
> If you can stand the plastic feel, it's probably best to put lots of
> coats.
If I thin the poly and wipe or brush it on with 4 or 5 coats it seems like I
will still have the feel of the natural wood, but will it protect as well?
>
> Regarding sanding. If you are brushing on thick coats, you may need to
> sand between coats. Poly coats sit on top of each other they don't
> melt into each other. However, if you brush the next coat before that
> last one has fully cured, there is no need to sand. Most cans will
> give you the time lines.
>
> Final sanding depends on how smooth you applied it in the first place
> and how flat you want it. Once you have lots of coats, you can use
> some 400 to really smooth it out with some wet sanding. Then apply a
> last coat and it;s like ice. You can also use 0000 steel wool and some
> wax to seal the finish and control the gloss.
Regarding the wet sanding, is this just a matter of dipping the sandpaper in
water, or are we talking about wetting with something like mineral oil or
mineral spirits? I think I'd prefer to go without the wax because once I
begin business in earnest I don't want to have to think too much about the
counters. On the other hand if wax on top of poly is a good way to protect
things further and keep it that way, then I guess I could try it. I could
always remove the wax later.
thanks,
dwhite
>
> Depending on how you stuff is used wax might be more trouble than its
> worth. It really makes thigs look nice but requires some maintenance.
> Although in some case, wax is exactly how you keep it looking nice for
> ever. Just buff once a week.
>
>
> "Dan White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > So I've got my raw hard maple butcher block countertops and I've been
> > experimenting with poly finishes on the underside. I have been using
Minwax
> > clear and satin oil based poly, trying some patches of wood with full
> > strength and some with poly diluted with mineral spirits. So far I
don't
> > see much difference between the two although the diluted obviously goes
on
> > thinner. I have 3 coats of clear poly full strength and it doesn't look
all
> > that different from the diluted test patch, except you can feel the
> > difference to the touch. I'm beginning to wonder what the point is if I
put
> > on 3 full strength or 6 diluted and end up with the same thing? I'm
> > concerned that too few coats of diluted poly won't provide the
protection I
> > need. How do you know when enough is enough, and is it usually
recommended
> > to lightly sand the final satin poly coat?
> >
> > And finally, concerning wood protection I am finding out just now that
poly
> > isn't really impervious to liquids. I'm hearing from Minwax directly
that
> > the oil poly is more resistant than water based, but it is not going to
> > protect the wood from all liquids such as a wet glass of ice water. Now
I'm
> > wondering if I'm barking up the wrong tree with poly. I'm being told
now
> > that the only true ironclad treatment to protect the wood is conversion
> > varnish that has to be applied with a compressed air spray application,
> > which I cannot really do practically. I've called a couple of guys to
get a
> > price on this, but may just end up with the poly after all, and I guess
just
> > cross my fingers that the poly will do OK. Maybe I need a couple of
extra
> > coats...
> >
> > Any thoughts or advice on this long winded message are appreciated.
> >
> > dwhite
To answer the subject: Where do you suppose the term "wrap it
in Saran" came from? Ayup, someone painted thick coats of poly
all over something and made it look just like plastic.
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:41:01 -0600, Robert Galloway
<[email protected]> calmly ranted:
>Those Behlen folks have a web site? DAGS and came up dry.
http://www.google.com/search?q=behlen&sourceid=firefox&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
Results 1 - 100 of about 38,000 for behlen. (0.62 seconds)
Try connecting to the Internet FIRST next time, eh?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
If God approved of nudity, we all would have been born naked.
----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
http://www.diversify.com Your Wild & Woody Website Wonk
"Dan White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So I've got my raw hard maple butcher block countertops and I've been
> experimenting with poly finishes on the underside. I have been using
Minwax
> clear and satin oil based poly, trying some patches of wood with full
> strength and some with poly diluted with mineral spirits. So far I don't
> see much difference between the two although the diluted obviously goes on
> thinner. I have 3 coats of clear poly full strength and it doesn't look
all
> that different from the diluted test patch, except you can feel the
> difference to the touch. I'm beginning to wonder what the point is if I
put
> on 3 full strength or 6 diluted and end up with the same thing? I'm
> concerned that too few coats of diluted poly won't provide the protection
I
> need. How do you know when enough is enough, and is it usually
recommended
> to lightly sand the final satin poly coat?
>
> And finally, concerning wood protection I am finding out just now that
poly
> isn't really impervious to liquids. I'm hearing from Minwax directly that
> the oil poly is more resistant than water based, but it is not going to
> protect the wood from all liquids such as a wet glass of ice water. Now
I'm
> wondering if I'm barking up the wrong tree with poly. I'm being told now
> that the only true ironclad treatment to protect the wood is conversion
> varnish that has to be applied with a compressed air spray application,
> which I cannot really do practically. I've called a couple of guys to get
a
> price on this, but may just end up with the poly after all, and I guess
just
> cross my fingers that the poly will do OK. Maybe I need a couple of extra
> coats...
>
> Any thoughts or advice on this long winded message are appreciated.
>
> dwhite
>
>
>
Dan,
I built a wooden island top for my new kitchen -- the wood was bubinga.
When searching for a finish I settled on Tung Oil (Pure -- not the "finish"
kind). I was told that it was food safe (once cured) and that it would not
show water marks. After four months of use I am still happy. We have no
water rings nor major damage although we use it everyday.
The Tung oil finish is also easier to fix -- when first applying the
finish I noted a spot where I did not quite get all the clue up during the
contruction -- took out my handy scraper and shaved the glue and a few
angstroms of wood -- reapplied the Tung Oil and you can never tell where the
spot was
BTW I had to mail order the Tung Oil -- I could not find it at either of
the BORGs -- they only had "Tung Oil Finish"
Check out the following for some more thoughts
http://www.craft-art.com/index.php?PAGE=HOME&SESSID=91d514f09440086214b847a7380a796a
HTH
Cheers
"Jana" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Hi Dan,
> Regular poly should hold up well. It may just be a personal
> preference, but I'm not very fond of Minwax. In my experience,it
> doesn't hold up very well. I prefer Sherwin Williams brand,
> personally. If you have a little more time between coats, varathane
> works well.
Is the varathane Sherwin Williams' brand of poly? I've been doing some
testing on my counter bottoms and will go pick up some of this stuff and try
it out.
thanks!
dwhite
"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dan White wrote:
>
> > need. How do you know when enough is enough, and is it usually
> > recommended to lightly sand the final satin poly coat?
>
> I think the main idea behind thinning poly is to make the results look
more
> like shellac. Not dipped in plastic, but sort of hugging the grain and
> showing off your good surface preparation, instead of burying it under a
> layer of amber goo.
I understand, but how do you know when enough is enough? I'm thinning maybe
25% or so.
>
> > And finally, concerning wood protection I am finding out just now that
> > poly
> > isn't really impervious to liquids. I'm hearing from Minwax directly
that
> > the oil poly is more resistant than water based, but it is not going to
> > protect the wood from all liquids such as a wet glass of ice water. Now
>
> I wouldn't worry too much about this. I used poly on my first full-scale
> project, what feels like three lifetimes ago. It's a plant stand. The
> plants regularly "pee" on it, and I designed the shelves so that they
would
> trap any spillage and keep it from leaking onto the floor. I try to mop
up
> spills, but this thing has been exposed to plenty of pot overflows that
> went un-noticed, and it still looks spiffy keen going on a decade later.
> (Spiffy keen to the extent that it can, mind you. I've learned a lot
since
> this project.)
>
> Unless you're building a boat, poly is probably fine.
that's good to hear. I'm thinking I should use the poly in any case and
deal with any problems down the road. I really don't want to spend more $$$
than I have on professional spraying of this conversion varnish. Maybe
Minwax thought I was going to leave coffee and water on the counters for a
week?
thanks,
dwhite
"Bill Wallace" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dan,
>
> I think you have the right idea. Poly for the people and raw for the
> food prep. I would not wax the tops as it will just cause problems
> with moisture getting caught in the finish and require buffing all the
> time. Th only danger os very hot liquids sitting in place can cause
> some blush but it would take some pretty hot stuff so you're likely
> OK.
I was wondering whether I needed to wax or not. Guess I won't. I'm finding
that the best finish seems to be several coats of poly, sanding between
each. As someone suggested, I wet sanded the clear poly with 400 grit and
it is smooth as glass now. If I want to bring back some of the shine rather
than the satin that the 400 grit gave me, I suppose I need to wet sand with
600 and/or higher grits to get the shine I want. Correct? Also I don't
really understand wet sanding (why wet?) but I suppose it provides a
smoother surface than dry sanding. So if I start with clear poly then wet
sand it to smoothen it out and bring back the shine, will it be susceptible
to scratching, or show scratches moreso than if I just left it at a 400 grit
finish? I'm also going to try out the Sherwin Williams oil poly over the
Minwax I've been testing with.
>
> To keep the health department happy, you should find a butcher supply
> vendor. They will have a specifc wood block sanitizer/conditioner you
> can use weekly or so.
>
> The smart health inspectors will know that studies have show that wood
> has properties that actually kill bacteria. Something at the cellular
> level of wood, for its natural defenses, actually ruptures the cell
> walls of bacteria so it can't sustain life on wood. Plastic cutting
> boards actually harbor bacteria in down in the scratches that even a
> wash with hot, soapy, and bleach solutions can't easily kill.
Yes, I've read about this. One theory I read is that the wood wicks away
any water inside the grooves of the surface and dries out the groove
quicker. The bacteria can't live in a dry environment. The plastic grooves
stay wet for a much longer time and allow for bacteria spread. I would
guess the tannins (tannic acid?) have something to do with killing bacteria,
too.
thanks for your help, Bill.
dwhite
>
> BW
>
> "Dan White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > "Bill Wallace" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Dan,
> > >
> > > If I recall, this is a commercial establishment. Even so, it depends
> > > on the type of traffic you will have on these counters. If you are
> > > serving food on them and wiping them down several times a day, or if
> > > they are at the cash register whit goods beings shuffled across them
> > > all the time, then you should go with a conversion varnish or other
> > > hard ass finish.
> >
> > Thanks Bill and Sam for the comments. Yes, this is a deli. I would say
> > there are 5 main sections of the butcher block counter as follows: (1)
I
> > have a 14' (by 14") and a 12' shelf for people to eat off of, but we
will
> > not have glasses. Most everything will be take out so I will expect to
have
> > a cold snapple or coke sitting on the shelf while someone eats. (2)
Also
> > the checkout counter (7'x3') will be poly finished, although it doesn't
have
> > to be necessarily. I just thought this would be most durable. Food
orders
> > mostly will be shuffled across this counter, change, etc. I don't sell
> > anything sharp or heavy, but you never know. (4)There is an L shaped
> > self-serve coffee section with a 7'x3' run and a 4'x25" run on the L. I
was
> > most concerned about coffee stains. I tested a sample block that had
been
> > mineral oiled by spilling and leaving coffee on it and it did stain. I
was
> > under the impression that coffee would not harm the oil based poly
finish.
> > No spills will remain for more than a couple of hours at most I would
> > expect. Of course with coffee equipment there is always the chance of a
> > leaking fitting or something that might not be noticed right away. (5)
There
> > is the actual sandwich prep area with slicer and sandwich unit. This
area
> > is about 8' of counter and was going to finish it with mineral oil only
due
> > to food service. I do have to admit that the coffee and food prep
counter
> > is the same counter of 13' overall length. My plan was to poly the
first 7'
> > for the coffee area, and then go with just mineral oil for the rest.
There
> > would be a glass guard separating the two areas. Oh, there is also a
10'
> > back counter for taking phone orders, paperwork, etc. I was also going
to
> > poly this section.
> >
> > So that is the gory detail on the application.
> >
> > >
> > > Assuming, they are more of display counters, then poly will be fine.
> > > Regarding how much and what method these are the decision criteria.
> > >
> > > Wiping is the easiest way for a non-professional to end up with
> > > professional results. By appling super thined coats you don't have the
> > > opportunity for sags, runs or thready brush marks. If you can get the
> > > look you want with brushing, then that will save you time and get a
> > > better build up.
> > >
> > > If you can stand the plastic feel, it's probably best to put lots of
> > > coats.
> >
> > If I thin the poly and wipe or brush it on with 4 or 5 coats it seems
like I
> > will still have the feel of the natural wood, but will it protect as
well?
> >
> > >
> > > Regarding sanding. If you are brushing on thick coats, you may need to
> > > sand between coats. Poly coats sit on top of each other they don't
> > > melt into each other. However, if you brush the next coat before that
> > > last one has fully cured, there is no need to sand. Most cans will
> > > give you the time lines.
> > >
> > > Final sanding depends on how smooth you applied it in the first place
> > > and how flat you want it. Once you have lots of coats, you can use
> > > some 400 to really smooth it out with some wet sanding. Then apply a
> > > last coat and it;s like ice. You can also use 0000 steel wool and some
> > > wax to seal the finish and control the gloss.
> >
> > Regarding the wet sanding, is this just a matter of dipping the
sandpaper in
> > water, or are we talking about wetting with something like mineral oil
or
> > mineral spirits? I think I'd prefer to go without the wax because once
I
> > begin business in earnest I don't want to have to think too much about
the
> > counters. On the other hand if wax on top of poly is a good way to
protect
> > things further and keep it that way, then I guess I could try it. I
could
> > always remove the wax later.
> >
> > thanks,
> > dwhite
> >
> > >
> > > Depending on how you stuff is used wax might be more trouble than its
> > > worth. It really makes thigs look nice but requires some maintenance.
> > > Although in some case, wax is exactly how you keep it looking nice for
> > > ever. Just buff once a week.
> > >
> > >
> > > "Dan White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...
> > > > So I've got my raw hard maple butcher block countertops and I've
been
> > > > experimenting with poly finishes on the underside. I have been
using
> > Minwax
> > > > clear and satin oil based poly, trying some patches of wood with
full
> > > > strength and some with poly diluted with mineral spirits. So far I
> > don't
> > > > see much difference between the two although the diluted obviously
goes
> > on
> > > > thinner. I have 3 coats of clear poly full strength and it doesn't
look
> > all
> > > > that different from the diluted test patch, except you can feel the
> > > > difference to the touch. I'm beginning to wonder what the point is
if I
> > put
> > > > on 3 full strength or 6 diluted and end up with the same thing? I'm
> > > > concerned that too few coats of diluted poly won't provide the
> > protection I
> > > > need. How do you know when enough is enough, and is it usually
> > recommended
> > > > to lightly sand the final satin poly coat?
> > > >
> > > > And finally, concerning wood protection I am finding out just now
that
> > poly
> > > > isn't really impervious to liquids. I'm hearing from Minwax
directly
> > that
> > > > the oil poly is more resistant than water based, but it is not going
to
> > > > protect the wood from all liquids such as a wet glass of ice water.
Now
> > I'm
> > > > wondering if I'm barking up the wrong tree with poly. I'm being
told
> > now
> > > > that the only true ironclad treatment to protect the wood is
conversion
> > > > varnish that has to be applied with a compressed air spray
application,
> > > > which I cannot really do practically. I've called a couple of guys
to
> > get a
> > > > price on this, but may just end up with the poly after all, and I
guess
> > just
> > > > cross my fingers that the poly will do OK. Maybe I need a couple of
> > extra
> > > > coats...
> > > >
> > > > Any thoughts or advice on this long winded message are appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > dwhite
"Xane T." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Have you considered using the two-part epoxy/varnish that is used in
> many restaraunts on bar counters (mentioned elsewhere in this thread)?
> It's extremely tough, and while it can be scratched, you can also put
> a coat or two of poly or spar varnish on top of it to make it clear
> again once it gets scratched up enough that it needs to be redone (or
> re-pour it, though it gets too thick that way). Any wear and tear that
> would damage this would also go through poly and possibly into the
> wood, allowing moisture in. It does have that 'plastic-coated' look
> that most people on this group seem to hate, but if you really need
> something tough, this may be the way to go. Cost could be an issue,
> though. Look up info on Envirotex Lite, Aristocrat, and Famowood Glaze
> Coat.
I'm starting to think I should just go with the poly and see how it works
out for a year or so. At that time if there is a problem I could sand it
down and start over with the stuff you describe.
thanks,
dwhite
"Dan White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Equally
> > hard as it may be to believe the sexy wench behind the bar may sometimes
> be
> > too wrapped up in the advances of the "my-god-you're-beautiful,
> > my-wife-doesn't-understand-me" idiot on the other side of the bar to
> notice,
> > and the puddles can lay there for a while. One wipe with a wet bar rag
> and
> > it's a brand new bar. Well - at least under the same lights that made
> that
> > toothless, tattooed, what-ever-it-is behind the bar appear to be a sexy
> > wench.
>
> I'm still trying to hire a sexy wench for the counter. Good for business,
> ya' know?
>
> dwhite
>
>
Turn down the lights and you can get away with an ugly one. They're cheaper
too.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]