This post contains updates and corrections to information presented in
my original Delta 46-756 lathe review.
The VFD controller information, in particular, is relevant to
Powermatic and Jet EVS owners as well, since it turns out they all
come from the same factory as the Delta units. Primary differences
lie in the varying degrees of eloquence in implementing the units into
the final product.
Don't care? Don't own one? Stop here...
Otherwise, on with the show...
This has not been Block and Wrecker's week.
It _has_ been faulty spreadsheet engineering/bean counter week.
A combination of Router and Lathe failures have left me annoyed at the
ongoing downward spiral of US manufacturing, engineering and support.
It's mostly a mess useless marketing and bean-counting morons...
Since the PC890 series router was recalled due to shorting motor
windings, and they resisted mailing a replacement, I had to drive 40
miles across a very crowded and unpleasant city to exchange the US
assembled router body for a new "improved" Mexican assembled unit at a
factory outlet. The replacement was new, and is an almost identical
unit, with the same imported parts - Now with Imported Labor. Only
the armature seems different. Let us hope that the words "pressure
impregnated windings" were mentioned in a conference room somewhere
along the way.
But the pièce de résistance was the failure of the new lathe, which
prompted a long, twisted journey into the bowels of B&D customer
service and various Tinglish VFD spec/programming manuals.
Turns out there exists in this lathe an intermittent condition which
causes the lathe to go into runaway mode, whereby the spindle speed
jumps to maximum programmed AC drive Master Frequency and the stop
button refuses to respond. Only by flipping the BRS (Big Red Switch,
a distant relative of the BOS which existed on the original IBM PCs)
are you able to shut-off power and stop the unit. It is an interesting
experience to have a 12" segmented vessel unexpectedly whiz up to 3000
RPM - especially when the stop button doesn't respond.
Did it consistently for two days, so I got online and discovered the
wretched abortion known as ServiceNet. This has got to be the worst
online ordering system I have ever used. Additionally, the newly
converted PDF parts layouts suffered a severe loss of resolution.
Glad I downloaded my older stuff before the Big Sellout. I then
discover the needed part is on backorder until January 16, 2007.
And that the replacement sells for $772.39 !!!
Holy Guano, Batman - I hope you get a reach-around with that!
So I call support and talk to the "engineer" who states that the
mysterious "F" which is constantly displayed represents a fault
condition, and that I need a new VFD controller due to the runaway
condition - shucks, they saw this exact same problem just a few days
ago. Their computer shows it to be backordered till, you guessed it,
Jan 16, 2007. Bought a lathe to do Christmas gifts, but it won't work
properly until after the New Year. Hmmm....
Being insatiably curious about such things, I asked who OEM'd the
controller and got an evasive/unknowing answer to the effect that,
"parts come from all over the world, and there is no one nameable
manufacturer of the VFD." Wrong answer, dude. Been in the
electronics business for many years, and I know that is utter BS.
Lest you fear that this is to digress into a spate of vendor bashing,
there is actually some useful information contained below - at least
for those who are interested in such things.
Spurred on by the conflicting/bogus information received, further
research revealed that not only is there a nameable manufacturer of
the VFD, but that it is the same company that produces a broad line of
industrial controllers, as well as the VFD's installed on Powermatic
and Jet lathes. And that company is Delta Electronics of Taiwan.
Absolutely no relation to B&D/Delta Machinery, however.
I also learned that I can buy a non-DeltaWW OEM controller for $235.
Or an almost identical Powermatic controller for $335. Not $772.39.
Of course, you'd have to spend 10 minutes programming the registers to
match the Delta defaults and swap the plastic door. Damned, that
works out to well over $500 an hour. Where do I sign up...
The Delta VFD controller, as well as the PM/Jet, are VFD-S series
controllers. Mostly standard, off the shelf products. For example,
the unit used on the Delta is based on the VFD015S21A/B controller.
The OEM version has a custom plastic door and a few pre-programmed
registers which make it non-standard - Unfortunately. The controller
is much more capable than it is allowed to be by the Delta register
settings. (For those who are unaware, the VFD is a microprocessor
controlled power switch, and contains non-volatile memory locations
which can be programmed with static values to enable/disable certain
built in functions of the basic unit. Among these features are
frequency/current/voltage readouts, and externally mounted
speed/start/stop/fwd/rev controls.
Jet and PM utilize these functions, Delta does not. If these functions
had not been locked out, an add-on box with heavy duty switches &
controls, a digital speed readout and mode indicators, etc. could be
built and retrofitted DIY for about $20. As it is, you would have to
connect the controller to a computer with an RS-485 port and
appropriate software, and rewrite the relevant registers. And that
naively assumes that they have not set a passcode to protect the
registers from being written to. Admittedly, the unenlightened could
really make a mess in there, but I consider it a loss (for me) to not
have easy access to the registers and various mode displays available.
Unfortunately, any attempt to do this would most assuredly void the
warranty, and this I can relate to. Motor damage, controller damage,
and personal injury could result from improper settings. However, the
minute the warranty expires, that sucker's getting modded for external
switches - unless I get fed up waiting 3 months for a VFD and dump the
whole thing back in the original vendor's lap.
It also turns out that the mysterious "F" display represents the
Frequency of the AC Drive Master Clock, which is then used to set the
ultimate speed of the motor. It does not represent a Fault condition.
Strangely enough, however, the runaway speed flaw has not presented a
fault code. Go figure...
There is a programmable divisor that may be used to present alternate
readouts based upon the AC Drive Master Frequency, but I am hazarding
a guess that the speed indicator on the panel does not represent an
accurate spindle RPM reading - which probably explains why PM and
General use a separate RPM display and pickup module.
In conclusion, it is amazing how much more acceptable this lathe would
have been in the market had Delta chosen to spend another $20-$50 in
materials. I'm beginning to think these guys aren't particularly
bright - particularly in the electronics arena.
Heavier machined toolrest/head/tail stock clamps, better controls (or
the ability to add them), a Zero Phase reactor coil to the VFD output,
and a TEFC motor would have rescued a product that is seemingly out of
favor with vendors and customers alike. Comparing this unit against
the Jet/General/PM is like night and day - but at a price. Since I
paid far less than retail, the sum comes to just about $500, but had I
been asked to pay $1800 - or more - I would have most likely passed it
over in favor of the Jet 16" EVS w/ 2HP 3phase TEFC motor. As it is,
I've only got a slight case of buyer's remorse - and that may diminish
once the waranty expires and the shortcomings are corrected, at least
in my tiny part of the world - courtesy of DIY.
FWIW
R. Pierce Butler said:
>So who makes the VFD for Delta/Jet et. al.?
As mentioned WAAYY up this thread, it is Delta Electronics of Taiwan.
No relation to Delta WW. I thought perhaps they were labeling their
own until the need revealed that it was an independant Asian company.
An industrial user relates his experience:
---------
I have a lot of experience with Delta drives.
We have a lab set-up where we did the Pepsi challenge with Delta
versus other drives. (The tester is a NEMA 4 cabinet with heaters and
a variac to raise the line voltage to over 500 vac to simulate NA
utility conditions. Externally it has a bonitron unit for braking,
marathon blackmax motors, and opposing drives which have torque
limiting to provide loads. It's a really interesting set-up needless
to say.)
We ran these drives at ~150*F at 520 vac for over a month. We ran them
loaded with an 5 sec accel and decel time. All the other drives
failed, these ones, we couldn't get to trip or fail.
It was a test to see how well they were made. The research that I
found, was that Delta is one of the biggest power supply mfg. in Asia.
We felt that if they make great power supplies then their drives would
be made just as well.
Inexpensive yes, Cheap no.
The problem with most Asian drives is that they are voltage intolerant
on the high end. In Japan for instance, the micro-drives are designed
for a 400 volt system. When they go to get UL listed, they have to
drop there high end to 460 instead of 480 to meet the requirements.
They can still be used with great success if the proper line reactor
or bucking transformer is used to stay under 460 +/- 10%.
The Delta's don't have this problem.
I'm not a salesman or rep...I have no real brand loyalty per say. Are
there drives out there that can do a better job with more bells and
whistles, sure. But I happen to agree with dpc. If they work for you,
then use them.
IMHO,
Carl
---------
FWIW
"DGG" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> George said:
>
>>"DGG" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Turning a bowl with a Tektronix scope 2 feet away and wired to the
>>> lathe is probably not particularly good for the scope, however. ;-)
>>
>>Why? Used to troubleshoot inside shacks with 100,000 watt transmitters
>>right next to mine. (of course mine was a Hameg....)
>
> Well, I was thinking more along the lines of flying debris and metal
> tools being a hazard than the piddling amounts of RF/EMI.
>
> Never having used one, does this beat a Hameg? ;-)
>
> http://webpages.charter.net/videodoctor/images/ScopeHell.JPG
>
> FWIW
They all look alike to me. Having struggled with the old kind, I sure do
love the recording types!
DGG (in [email protected]) said:
| The Delta VFD controller, as well as the PM/Jet, are VFD-S series
| controllers. Mostly standard, off the shelf products. For example,
| the unit used on the Delta is based on the VFD015S21A/B controller.
| The OEM version has a custom plastic door and a few pre-programmed
| registers which make it non-standard - Unfortunately. The controller
| is much more capable than it is allowed to be by the Delta register
| settings. (For those who are unaware, the VFD is a microprocessor
| controlled power switch, and contains non-volatile memory locations
| which can be programmed with static values to enable/disable certain
| built in functions of the basic unit. Among these features are
| frequency/current/voltage readouts, and externally mounted
| speed/start/stop/fwd/rev controls.
It's an extremely capable and flexible controller. I have one driving
the spindle on my ShopBot. Did you get the manual containing all of
the register/parameter info?
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
DGG wrote:
>
> At this point, however, I'm beginning to suspect that it may not be a
> bad controller per se, but rather improper design/installation which
> leaves the unit subject to radiated EMI resulting in CPU confusion.
Is this something you can touch up? (shielding, ferrite beeds) If so you
got nothing to lose, if it doesn't work, put it back how it was.
George said:
>"DGG" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Turning a bowl with a Tektronix scope 2 feet away and wired to the
>> lathe is probably not particularly good for the scope, however. ;-)
>
>Why? Used to troubleshoot inside shacks with 100,000 watt transmitters
>right next to mine. (of course mine was a Hameg....)
Well, I was thinking more along the lines of flying debris and metal
tools being a hazard than the piddling amounts of RF/EMI.
Never having used one, does this beat a Hameg? ;-)
http://webpages.charter.net/videodoctor/images/ScopeHell.JPG
FWIW
George said:
>"DGG" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>SNIP
> And if the bowl were much deeper, it would be less
>> useful. I would have preferred two interior curls, one large, one
>> small, as I still use a straight rest on the exterior, but that's my
>> preference.
>
>They make a sturdy extension if you want to drop the cash. Lots more reach
>available than most would feel comfortable with, but necessary on my old
>Delta to reach around a bowl. You're right, though, no need for an
>"exterior" curve. Straight rest can be brought in easily for average close.
>http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/?action=view¤t=Offset-Toolrest.jpg&refPage=20&imgAnch=imgAnch27
>
>Here's the rest I have, and I love it.
>
>http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/cgi-bin/shopper?preadd=action&key=108-0200
Thanks, that is pretty cool. I like the dual mounting hole idea.
Knew about the Sorby rests, but their 9" bowl rest is also too small.
Works fine on a Jet 1016 Mini, but it's a toy on this larger lathe.
Bought the "French Curl" rest because it was local, cheap, and there
was a bowl on the lathe I couldn't seem to finish without. But it was
still a bit shy reaching the bottom.
It's one of those maddening things that makes you want to take up
blacksmithing. Another is the tool rest base. The blasted rough-ass
casting is so tall, that it won't even clear a 12" bowl on a 16" swing
lathe, and is one of the most recalcitrant things I've used. I'm
working on a fix for the "takes two hands to move it" problem.
Now with some steel, a welder, lathe, boring setup, and some time...
"DGG" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
SNIP
And if the bowl were much deeper, it would be less
> useful. I would have preferred two interior curls, one large, one
> small, as I still use a straight rest on the exterior, but that's my
> preference.
They make a sturdy extension if you want to drop the cash. Lots more reach
available than most would feel comfortable with, but necessary on my old
Delta to reach around a bowl. You're right, though, no need for an
"exterior" curve. Straight rest can be brought in easily for average close.
http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/?action=view¤t=Offset-Toolrest.jpg&refPage=20&imgAnch=imgAnch27
Here's the rest I have, and I love it.
http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/cgi-bin/shopper?preadd=action&key=108-0200
There's a few types out there, being sold to the hobby machine
shop/hobby cnc people. Here's a link or two:
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1684
http://cnc4pc.com/Index_Pulse_Card.htm
Jack
Troy wrote:
> oh ok.. I was just wondering....
> since your an et guy I've got a question for you. I've been wondering
> how difficult/costly it would be to add a digital readout to the unit.
> I realize this would have to be a interpolated reading since we're
> varing the speed analog instead of digitally as you are using. And of
> course what benefit would I truly gain other then it looks pretty. Yes
> I have a degree in electronics but I'm rusty as heck. My degree was
> focus'd more towards computer repair/engineering then the analog world,
> and I never did quite get the analog down. My X was just the opposite.
> She got the analog but never the digital... go figure.
>
> Troy
>
> DGG wrote:
>
>> Troy said:
>>
>>
>> OK - I didn't bother to look up your model number, but I believe that
>> Jet Variable Frequency Drive units have model numbers ending with EVS.
>> The DC motor versions, like the VS mini lathe do NOT use this VFD.
>>
>> Now that I think about it, that is the lathe that I replaced with the
>> Delta. Totally different animals. The 1014 uses a DC motor and PWM
>> driver. The VFD controllers cost more than an entire Jet mini. ;-)
>>
>> My bad...
>>
>>
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 22:31:13 +0000, George wrote:
>
>> Here's the rest I have, and I love it.
>>
>> http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/cgi-bin/shopper?preadd=action&key=108-0200
>
> What thread is used to mount it to the shaft? The rest looks to be
> worthwhile but I already have a spare shaft (25mm).
>
Tough question to ask a non-machinist. Measures 3/4" diameter (shanked from
1") and there appear to be 6 full threads in the 3/4" depth. Imagine that
would be something standard?
DGG<[email protected]> wrote in news:f6kfi2pf83lgrf4qsd6k47fvblk5q2ls2v@
4ax.com:
> The Visitor said:
>
>>Could that (feedback) be the real problem I had with my controller?
>>
>>I had to extend the deceleration time so it would work properly.
>>Otherwise it would trip off and the lathe would coast to a stop rather
>>than elecytrically brake. The error signal I got was somthing like "line
>>voltage problem" and when I asked at delta they said I have a main power
>>problem. Somewhere, I think the book, gave me the idea to adjust the
>>de-acceleration pot. It never happens with slightly less electric
>>braking. It is extended maybe 3 or 4 seconds.
>
> Your controller sounds like the old Baldor unit. And from what I
> understand, many had problems with it going into FAULT mode a lot.
>
> The Delta.tw unit is totally digital and contains no potentiometers.
> The accel/decel rates are set by writing to EEPROM registers through
> an RS485 port. There are two groups of registers for fast and slow,
> selectable by switch. However, mine is already set to slow.
>
> But the problem is that it WON'T shut off the motor. I'd prefer a
> coast down condition over a won't stop running situation any day.
>
>
> nonsensical ramblings...
> I do note that they have the Braking Resistor Threshold set at 380v
> but the Over Volt Stall Threshold set to 370v. Normally the OVST
> would be set a little higher than the BRT. The AVR is turned off
> during decel as well. All three of these are potential suspects.
>
> I'm guessing that if the BRT were set to 370 and the OVST were set to
> 380, all would be good in the universe as concerns the failure to
> shutdown motor drive.
>
> FWIW
>
So who makes the VFD for Delta/Jet et. al.?
DGG said:
>This post contains updates and corrections to information presented in
>my original Delta 46-756 lathe review.
>
>The VFD controller information, in particular, is relevant to
>Powermatic and Jet EVS owners as well, since it turns out they all
>come from the same factory as the Delta units. Primary differences
>lie in the varying degrees of eloquence in implementing the units into
>the final product.
>
>Don't care? Don't own one? Stop here...
>Otherwise, on with the show...
The original post discusses problems with runaway motor speed
and failure to remove motor drive when the stop button is pressed.
Additional info as follows.
These findings are applicable to all AC motor/VFD setups.
Additionally, I am now able to reproduce the fault at will.
The process of exploration reveals that the motor rotor is a rich
source of EMF which is induced by the harmonic rich pulses from the
VFD Drive. It seems to be aggravated by the 10kHz carrier rate
chosen. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that there is up to 45
volts of crap present on the rotor, and current up to .5 amps. The
unpowered-state resistance of the rotor to ground varies from 0 to 125
ohms. I would hazard a guess that bearing erosion or fluting is a
potential problem since the only path to ground for this potential
lies in the bearings themselves. A prudent consideration on any VFD
setup that does not use a specialty motor would be some sort of rotor
grounding mechanism. A graphite tipped grounding strap which rides on
the end of the rotor shaft, for instance; similar to almost every VCR
head drum motor ever built.
But this is not the only source of my immediate problem, however.
Apparently, the controller is working as advertised, but excessive
regeneration is causing the controller to hang in an infinite state of
overvolt protection while waiting for the DC Bus voltage to subside
before decelerating the motor. The feedback from the freewheeling
motor never subsides, so the controller just sits and waits. How do
you reduce regeneration? Well, one way is to apply a load - and sure
enough, placing heavy pressure on the handwheel causes the controller
to respond and continue on to decelerate the motor.
So, what is the cure? That's a tougher question, since any meaningful
changes would probably require rewriting register settings in the
controller and/or the addition of a zero phase reactor and/or shielded
motor feed wiring - which would most likely nullify their picky-ass
warranty. But since any number of replacement controllers are
probably going to respond in the same way, the fix is probably not as
straightforward as replacing a defective part. So we end up in a
Catch-22 situation that has probably resulted in loads of these lathes
being shipped back as terminally defective. And I'll be darned if I'm
waiting until January of next year for a part that probably won't fix
anything, or paying for the modifications out of pocket. I've got at
least two hours in the project already - not counting the interface
and VFD familiarization.
The thing that gets me, however, is that I bought a lathe to turn
wood, not to troubleshoot in lieu of the seemingly dysfunctional R&D
team at Block and Wrecker, or to sit for 3 months+ waiting on a fix.
This could get ugly... ;-)
DGG said:
>This post contains updates and corrections to information presented in
>my original Delta 46-756 lathe review.
>
>Their computer shows the part it to be backordered till Jan 16, 2007.
Well, kudos to Delta/B&D for getting a replacement part shipped well
ahead of the computer projected date. Received it yesterday, and I am
now finishing up a large 13" Ash and Black Mesquite bowl.
I've been using a small 6" straight rest for bowl interiors on the Jet
Mini, and with a certain amount of adjustment, it works fine. But now
that I've progressed to larger diameters, it turns out that a straight
rest doesn't deal well with deeper bowl bottoms. Bought a Delta
46-404 "French Curl" tool rest, and consider it a bargain at $23.
Made in Taiwan, reasonably well finished, although the curves are not
quite what I expected. The acutely curved side works OK on interiors,
but the other side was probably designed to be used on bowl exteriors,
and due to the bulk and design of the rest, the angles are wrong for
interior work. And if the bowl were much deeper, it would be less
useful. I would have preferred two interior curls, one large, one
small, as I still use a straight rest on the exterior, but that's my
preference.
FWIW
Let me get this straight because I just bought a jet 1014VS and drove
all the way to Minnesota to get it.
your saying that delta and jet products are from the same factory?
So WMH is simply a company who puts their names on other peoples stuff?
I also have had problems with the quality of my 1014 out of the box, but
its been remedied. But it wasn't up to what I was told it would be
initially.
I'd give their customer service a 7.
Troy
DGG wrote:
> Eddie Munster said:
>
>
>
> I certainly don't mind them listing prices on their decidedly
> unresponsive web site, my primary objection remains the excessive
> markup. Especially when Powermatic sells their nearly identical VFD
> for half the price. Which is what prompted me to explore who actually
> manufactured the thing.
>
> B&D management has apparently spent far too much time under the hot
> sun while golfing Longboat Key. I fear they are now embracing the
> modern era "screw everything that walks" business philosophy that is
> making this country such a great place to live and work in these last
> 15 years. Pride, workmanship, and customer service have been
> supplanted by avarice and exploitation. But that's just my opinion.
>
>
>
> Yes, but... I'll apparently lose 3 months of it while it sits idle
> waiting for the replacement. It _may_ not take that long. but I'm not
> going to hold my breath. New management doesn't exactly impress.
> Delta used to be pretty good with customer service, now it seems not
> so much. I fear they are beginning to rival Stanley on my growing
> "better off bankrupt" list of irresponsible US Corporations.
>
> At this point, however, I'm beginning to suspect that it may not be a
> bad controller per se, but rather improper design/installation which
> leaves the unit subject to radiated EMI resulting in CPU confusion.
> It is too intermittent and doesn't seem to be heat related, which
> would be one of my first suspects for an intermittent condition, the
> other being a cold solder joint. (Used to repair Paragon Industrial
> controllers and Tektronix/Military test equipment.)
>
>
>
> They never powered it up - it is a 220vac unit and they don't have
> outlets in the retail store. Mostly it sat around, shoved from one
> spot to another and being cursed by the store manager. His parting
> comment was, "Thanks for getting this thing out of here".
> Leaves one with a rather disconcerted feeling, especially considering
> that large, new empty spot in the wallet.
>
> But I'm sure it will all work out in the end - one way or another.
>
> FWIW
>
>
mechanical? No, my speed is both electronically and mechanically variable.
I set the initial pulley size and then a pot controls the speed within
the set range from there.
Troy
DGG wrote:
> Troy said:
>
>
>
> No, we are discussing the VFD - the electronic speed control module.
> The same electronic controller is used on the Delta/PM/Jet lathes.
> This doesn't apply to reeves drive lathes at all, and I believe yours
> uses a mechanical speed control system.
>
>
>
> Well, they sort of all do this. It's a long story...
>
>
>
> Welcome to the new millennium. ;-)
>
>
>
In rec.crafts.woodturning Troy <[email protected]> wrote:
: Let me get this straight because I just bought a jet 1014VS and drove
: all the way to Minnesota to get it.
: your saying that delta and jet products are from the same factory?
The original post was about a controller, but to partially answer your
broader question: sort of.
Most non-industrial woodworking machines made today, including
classical American companies like Delta, are made, or at least the heavier
metal parts are made, overseas. Taiwan is still the major
ocation, although mainland China and India are getting into the game.
(For an example of the latter, I bought one of the last pairs of cast-iron
legs for the Nova 3000 lathe to be imported into the US; they were
cast in India).
Individual companies specify what they want, and the factories give them
what they ask for. This includes design of the machines, but also
things like uniformity of the cast iron, tolerances in size, etc.
It's not a bad thing, necessarily; you pay a lot less than if
it were made in the US totally, is the argument.
-- Andy Barss
oh ok.. I was just wondering....
since your an et guy I've got a question for you. I've been wondering
how difficult/costly it would be to add a digital readout to the unit.
I realize this would have to be a interpolated reading since we're
varing the speed analog instead of digitally as you are using. And of
course what benefit would I truly gain other then it looks pretty. Yes
I have a degree in electronics but I'm rusty as heck. My degree was
focus'd more towards computer repair/engineering then the analog world,
and I never did quite get the analog down. My X was just the opposite.
She got the analog but never the digital... go figure.
Troy
DGG wrote:
> Troy said:
>
>
>
> OK - I didn't bother to look up your model number, but I believe that
> Jet Variable Frequency Drive units have model numbers ending with EVS.
> The DC motor versions, like the VS mini lathe do NOT use this VFD.
>
> Now that I think about it, that is the lathe that I replaced with the
> Delta. Totally different animals. The 1014 uses a DC motor and PWM
> driver. The VFD controllers cost more than an entire Jet mini. ;-)
>
> My bad...
>
>
WOAH!... tetronix heaven!
Troy aka N6REJ
DGG wrote:
> George said:
>
>
>
> Well, I was thinking more along the lines of flying debris and metal
> tools being a hazard than the piddling amounts of RF/EMI.
>
> Never having used one, does this beat a Hameg? ;-)
>
> http://webpages.charter.net/videodoctor/images/ScopeHell.JPG
>
> FWIW
>
interesting, thanks for the links.
Troy
Taunt wrote:
> There's a few types out there, being sold to the hobby machine
> shop/hobby cnc people. Here's a link or two:
>
> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1684
>
> http://cnc4pc.com/Index_Pulse_Card.htm
>
> Jack
>
>
> Troy wrote:
The Visitor said:
>Could that (feedback) be the real problem I had with my controller?
>
>I had to extend the deceleration time so it would work properly.
>Otherwise it would trip off and the lathe would coast to a stop rather
>than elecytrically brake. The error signal I got was somthing like "line
>voltage problem" and when I asked at delta they said I have a main power
>problem. Somewhere, I think the book, gave me the idea to adjust the
>de-acceleration pot. It never happens with slightly less electric
>braking. It is extended maybe 3 or 4 seconds.
Your controller sounds like the old Baldor unit. And from what I
understand, many had problems with it going into FAULT mode a lot.
The Delta.tw unit is totally digital and contains no potentiometers.
The accel/decel rates are set by writing to EEPROM registers through
an RS485 port. There are two groups of registers for fast and slow,
selectable by switch. However, mine is already set to slow.
But the problem is that it WON'T shut off the motor. I'd prefer a
coast down condition over a won't stop running situation any day.
nonsensical ramblings...
I do note that they have the Braking Resistor Threshold set at 380v
but the Over Volt Stall Threshold set to 370v. Normally the OVST
would be set a little higher than the BRT. The AVR is turned off
during decel as well. All three of these are potential suspects.
I'm guessing that if the BRT were set to 370 and the OVST were set to
380, all would be good in the universe as concerns the failure to
shutdown motor drive.
FWIW
Eddie Munster said:
>DGG wrote:
>>
>> And that the replacement sells for $772.39 !!!
>
>I am surprised they have the nerve to put a price on it. Considering the
>fault could seriously injure somebody.
I certainly don't mind them listing prices on their decidedly
unresponsive web site, my primary objection remains the excessive
markup. Especially when Powermatic sells their nearly identical VFD
for half the price. Which is what prompted me to explore who actually
manufactured the thing.
B&D management has apparently spent far too much time under the hot
sun while golfing Longboat Key. I fear they are now embracing the
modern era "screw everything that walks" business philosophy that is
making this country such a great place to live and work in these last
15 years. Pride, workmanship, and customer service have been
supplanted by avarice and exploitation. But that's just my opinion.
>Your's will be under warranty won't it?
Yes, but... I'll apparently lose 3 months of it while it sits idle
waiting for the replacement. It _may_ not take that long. but I'm not
going to hold my breath. New management doesn't exactly impress.
Delta used to be pretty good with customer service, now it seems not
so much. I fear they are beginning to rival Stanley on my growing
"better off bankrupt" list of irresponsible US Corporations.
At this point, however, I'm beginning to suspect that it may not be a
bad controller per se, but rather improper design/installation which
leaves the unit subject to radiated EMI resulting in CPU confusion.
It is too intermittent and doesn't seem to be heat related, which
would be one of my first suspects for an intermittent condition, the
other being a cold solder joint. (Used to repair Paragon Industrial
controllers and Tektronix/Military test equipment.)
>I recall you bought a display model. I guess it always worked properly
>at the store.
They never powered it up - it is a 220vac unit and they don't have
outlets in the retail store. Mostly it sat around, shoved from one
spot to another and being cursed by the store manager. His parting
comment was, "Thanks for getting this thing out of here".
Leaves one with a rather disconcerted feeling, especially considering
that large, new empty spot in the wallet.
But I'm sure it will all work out in the end - one way or another.
FWIW
Could that (feedback) be the real problem I had with my controller?
I had to extend the deceleration time so it would work properly.
Otherwise it would trip off and the lathe would coast to a stop rather
than elecytrically brake. The error signal I got was somthing like "line
voltage problem" and when I asked at delta they said I have a main power
problem. Somewhere, I think the book, gave me the idea to adjust the
de-acceleration pot. It never happens with slightly less electric
braking. It is extended maybe 3 or 4 seconds.
John
Morris Dovey said:
>DGG (in [email protected]) said:
>
>| The Delta VFD controller, as well as the PM/Jet, are VFD-S series
>| controllers. Mostly standard, off the shelf products. For example,
>| the unit used on the Delta is based on the VFD015S21A/B controller.
>
>It's an extremely capable and flexible controller. I have one driving
>the spindle on my ShopBot. Did you get the manual containing all of
>the register/parameter info?
Yep, sure did. Devoted an hour last night reading the 200 pages of
mostly well presented and detailed info, and much of the time was
spent shaking my head as to why Delta didn't utilize/allow to be
utilized more of it's inherent features. (i.e.: They've set P2-00~04
and/or P4-04~08 to ignore all of the Multi-Function Inputs.) Or why,
in spite of the harmonics present in the motor feed, they chose to run
the brake resistor wires parallel to and through the same grommet as
the motor supply wiring - which may be a source of erratic behavior.
Now I'm trying to figure out what I did with the old homebrew
RS-232/RS-485 interface converter. Apparently haven't used it since
December 17, 1987 - when it all became moot. It's probably ashes at
this point. Found a box of old Heathkit computer main boards I need
to toss, however. Now I get to paint siding. Big Sigh...
Greg G.
Morris Dovey said:
>DGG (in [email protected]) said:
>
>| The Delta VFD controller, as well as the PM/Jet, are VFD-S series
>| controllers. Mostly standard, off the shelf products. For example,
>| the unit used on the Delta is based on the VFD015S21A/B controller.
>....
>
>It's an extremely capable and flexible controller. I have one driving
>the spindle on my ShopBot. Did you get the manual containing all of
>the register/parameter info?
As an update, couldn't find the old DIY interface card, so I drug out
the old IC data books and cobbled up a new one. Far fewer parts this
time around, due to the more modern ASIC's available. Gotta love that
misc. semiconductor junkbox that the ex-SWMBO wanted me to toss.
http://webpages.charter.net/videodoctor/images/RS485Interface.jpg
It took far longer to find the almost forgotten prototype stuff than
to build the RS232/RS485 interface. Granted, it's not destined for
retail distribution, but it satisfied my curiosity as to what's going
on in the controller. At least I now have a dump of the internal
register settings - few of which differ from the factory defaults.
Suddenly, a CNC lathe for turning segmented vessels is sounding like
an interesting (and complex) project. One hand turned original, and a
limited production run of signed, machine turned copies. That CNC
hollowing rig is sure to be a bear to design.
These damned evil computers are now invading the woodshop...
Is there no escape?!
FWIW
OOPS, On the 2nd link, that type is used on a cnc converted machine
using a computer for the readout.
Taunt wrote:
> There's a few types out there, being sold to the hobby machine
> shop/hobby cnc people. Here's a link or two:
>
> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1684
>
> http://cnc4pc.com/Index_Pulse_Card.htm
>
> Jack
>
>
> Troy wrote:
>
>> oh ok.. I was just wondering....
>> since your an et guy I've got a question for you. I've been wondering
>> how difficult/costly it would be to add a digital readout to the
>> unit. I realize this would have to be a interpolated reading since
>> we're varing the speed analog instead of digitally as you are using.
>> And of course what benefit would I truly gain other then it looks
>> pretty. Yes I have a degree in electronics but I'm rusty as heck. My
>> degree was focus'd more towards computer repair/engineering then the
>> analog world, and I never did quite get the analog down. My X was
>> just the opposite. She got the analog but never the digital... go figure.
>>
>> Troy
>>
>> DGG wrote:
>>
>>> Troy said:
>>>
>>>
>>> OK - I didn't bother to look up your model number, but I believe that
>>> Jet Variable Frequency Drive units have model numbers ending with EVS.
>>> The DC motor versions, like the VS mini lathe do NOT use this VFD.
>>>
>>> Now that I think about it, that is the lathe that I replaced with the
>>> Delta. Totally different animals. The 1014 uses a DC motor and PWM
>>> driver. The VFD controllers cost more than an entire Jet mini. ;-)
>>>
>>> My bad...
>>>
>>>
Troy said:
>Let me get this straight because I just bought a jet 1014VS and drove
>all the way to Minnesota to get it.
>your saying that delta and jet products are from the same factory?
No, we are discussing the VFD - the electronic speed control module.
The same electronic controller is used on the Delta/PM/Jet lathes.
This doesn't apply to reeves drive lathes at all, and I believe yours
uses a mechanical speed control system.
>So WMH is simply a company who puts their names on other peoples stuff?
Well, they sort of all do this. It's a long story...
>I also have had problems with the quality of my 1014 out of the box, but
>its been remedied. But it wasn't up to what I was told it would be
>initially.
>I'd give their customer service a 7.
Welcome to the new millennium. ;-)
On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 19:42:31 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In rec.crafts.woodturning Troy <[email protected]> wrote:
>: Let me get this straight because I just bought a jet 1014VS and drove
>: all the way to Minnesota to get it.
>: your saying that delta and jet products are from the same factory?
>
>
>The original post was about a controller, but to partially answer your
>broader question: sort of.
>
>Most non-industrial woodworking machines made today, including
>classical American companies like Delta, are made, or at least the heavier
>metal parts are made, overseas. Taiwan is still the major
>ocation, although mainland China and India are getting into the game.
>(For an example of the latter, I bought one of the last pairs of cast-iron
>legs for the Nova 3000 lathe to be imported into the US; they were
>cast in India).
>
>Individual companies specify what they want, and the factories give them
>what they ask for. This includes design of the machines, but also
>things like uniformity of the cast iron, tolerances in size, etc.
>
It has been my experience that they actually give you what they are
capable of and hope that you will accept it. You might be surprised at
how "tolerant" companies become if it is a choice of having something
to sell or not. If you think that chinese iron foundries have process
capabilities that are even close to the best or even worst U.S.
foundries you are kidding yourself.
>It's not a bad thing, necessarily; you pay a lot less than if
>it were made in the US totally, is the argument.
I think the trend toward not allowing the end user to have the choice
to be discriminating for 10-15% more is a bad thing. That is where we
are heading and we are almost there.
Frank
I represent no one but myself.
>
> -- Andy Barss
Eddie Munster said:
>DGG wrote:
>>
>> At this point, however, I'm beginning to suspect that it may not be a
>> bad controller per se, but rather improper design/installation which
>> leaves the unit subject to radiated EMI resulting in CPU confusion.
>
>Is this something you can touch up? (shielding, ferrite beeds) If so you
>got nothing to lose, if it doesn't work, put it back how it was.
I'm working towards that very idea. I'm going to monitor/capture any
hash on the lines with a scope to see what is there.
Turning a bowl with a Tektronix scope 2 feet away and wired to the
lathe is probably not particularly good for the scope, however. ;-)
FWIW
"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:UxN%[email protected]...
>
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 22:31:13 +0000, George wrote:
>>
>>> Here's the rest I have, and I love it.
>>>
>>> http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/cgi-bin/shopper?preadd=action&key=108-0200
>>
>> What thread is used to mount it to the shaft? The rest looks to be
>> worthwhile but I already have a spare shaft (25mm).
>>
>
> Tough question to ask a non-machinist. Measures 3/4" diameter (shanked
> from 1") and there appear to be 6 full threads in the 3/4" depth. Imagine
> that would be something standard?
Follow my own. A regular 3/4 coarse off the tractor threads right up.
George said:
>>>Why? Used to troubleshoot inside shacks with 100,000 watt transmitters
>>>right next to mine. (of course mine was a Hameg....)
>
>They all look alike to me. Having struggled with the old kind, I sure do
>love the recording types!
Almost indispensable for digital work. Problem then becomes keeping
up with the constant need to upgrade to ever increasing sample rates.
Everything has become so intricate and specialized, it seems there is
little room for generalists these days - particularly those with low
thresholds for boredom, a desire for breadth, and an inherent mistrust
of all blustering authority.
FWIW
Troy said:
>mechanical? No, my speed is both electronically and mechanically variable.
>I set the initial pulley size and then a pot controls the speed within
>the set range from there.
OK - I didn't bother to look up your model number, but I believe that
Jet Variable Frequency Drive units have model numbers ending with EVS.
The DC motor versions, like the VS mini lathe do NOT use this VFD.
Now that I think about it, that is the lathe that I replaced with the
Delta. Totally different animals. The 1014 uses a DC motor and PWM
driver. The VFD controllers cost more than an entire Jet mini. ;-)
My bad...
"DGG" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Turning a bowl with a Tektronix scope 2 feet away and wired to the
> lathe is probably not particularly good for the scope, however. ;-)
>
Why? Used to troubleshoot inside shacks with 100,000 watt transmitters
right next to mine. (of course mine was a Hameg....)
Troy <[email protected]> writes:
> Let me get this straight because I just bought a jet 1014VS and drove
> all the way to Minnesota to get it.
> your saying that delta and jet products are from the same factory?
I think he said that the VFD controller is from the same factory, and that
both Jet and Delta buy it from that factory.
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