I want to design a piece of furniture for my daughter who is very much into
Gothic / Medieval architecture. I've been told that there is a method to
determining how to shape the top of a Gothic style window or arch that you
might see in a church or a castle, whether it's poionted or rounded. But so
far I have not been able to find out anything more.
The project is a grandmother clock, and I'm trying to draw out the door on
the front of the case and the glass panels on the sides. I'm trying to
figure out if there is a "right way" to make these pieces based on the
length and width.
Is there anyone who can point me in the right direction - books, Web sites,
etc.
Thanks in advance,
Tim
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 05:04:43 -0000, Rajeev <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I am curious to find out what a grandmother clock is??
It's different from a grandfather clock in two ways, firstly it's less
tall, secondly it's more attractive shaped (IMHO) around the top bonnet
of the hood.
A grandfather is _big_ ! It's too big for most modern houses. Even if
it does fit, it's probably overpowering.
Now some grandfathers in really big houses had complicated bonnets, but
in most cases their height was so tall that they didn't have space for
this. Many grandfathers thus had a very simple flat top to the hood.
This looks OK if you're trying to fit the most clock under a ceiling,
but really I'd rather have it lower.
AFAIK, grandmothers always had a decorated bonnet never a flat top.
This page has some simple variations on the arch, and instructions on
constructing them.
http://codesmiths.com/shed/workshop/techniques/arches.htm
I am curious to find out what a grandmother clock is??
On Nov 11, 10:15 pm, "Tim Schubach" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I want to design a piece of furniture for my daughter who is very much into
> Gothic / Medieval architecture. I've been told that there is a method to
> determining how to shape the top of a Gothic style window or arch that you
> might see in a church or a castle, whether it's poionted or rounded. But so
> far I have not been able to find out anything more.
>
> The project is a grandmother clock, and I'm trying to draw out the door on
> the front of the case and the glass panels on the sides. I'm trying to
> figure out if there is a "right way" to make these pieces based on the
> length and width.
>
> Is there anyone who can point me in the right direction - books, Web sites,
> etc.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Tim
On Nov 12, 6:17?am, [email protected] (J T) wrote:
> Sun, Nov 11, 2007, 11:15pm [email protected] (Tim Schubach) doth
> sayeth:
> I want to design a piece of furniture for my daughter who is very much
> into Gothic / Medieval architecture. <snip>
> The project is a grandmother clock, <sniIs there anyone who can point me
> in the right direction - books, Web sites, etc.
>
> A clock AIN'T furniture, and it for sure ain't architecture.
Actually, a long case clock probably has more "architectural" features
than most furniture. And it's as much a piece of furniture as a book
case or linen chest.
FoggyTown
On 12 Nov, 04:15, "Tim Schubach" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I want to design a piece of furniture for my daughter who is very much in=
to
> Gothic / Medieval architecture. I've been told that there is a method to
> determining how to shape the top of a Gothic style window or arch that you
> might see in a church or a castle, whether it's poionted or rounded.
Wikipedia isn't too bad.
I've got a very good chapter on this myself, but it's not on-line (and
won't be, sorry) 8-(
Basically, the trisk to "gothic" design isn't hard, but nor is it
trivial. There are techniques and rules you _must_ follow, or it just
won't be right. There are also variatiosn within the style where you
can adjust things and keep them looking right.
Gothic design begins with tool - straight edges and dividers. These
can be string or rulers, compasses or dividers. You _don't_ need to
measure angles. They couldn't do that in period, don't you be doing it
now. You'll also need some schoolbook-level Euclidean geometry, such
as how to construct angles of 90=B0 or 60=B0 with dividers, and how to
divide lines into equal parts. Maybe Pythagoras too. You'll find a
setsquare, maybe a 45=B0 square very useful, but there's nothing here
you can't do purely with those dividers.
To get the "style" right, remember the following:
- It's all done with circular arcs, sometimes with a few straight
lines. It _doesn't_ use ellipses or parabolas.
- Where an arc joins a tangent to that arc, you get a smooth
continuous line. Even though the curvature is discontinuous (i.e. it
suddenly changes from radious to infinite (straight)) then the curve
is still smooth.
And that's _all_ you need to know. From those, you can work out the
rest yourself (try it!)
As a "classic" gothic arch, there's the lancet window shape. This has
a set of proportions such that the overall window can be any size, but
the curved portion at the head of the window is such that its height
is the same as the width. "Height" here is measured from the
"springing points", the points on the sides where the vertical side
turns into a curve.
>From the 1st condition, we know it's done by drawing two intersecting
arcs with dividers. The questions left now are where to place their
centres! Symmetry suggests symmetry in placement. So that leaves us
with "How high up?" the centres should be, and "How far from the
centre line?"
Our 2nd condition (tangents) answers the first question easily. To get
a smooth curve through the spring points (to a vertical line below),
we need to place the centres of the arcs on the same horizontal line
of the spring points.
To get the arcs to fit the sides, we obviously need to put the centres
so that they're one radius away from the opposing vertical.
This much holds true for all "Gothic" arches.
Now what radius should we choose? This varies, and it's what's used to
control the "pointiness" of Gothic arches within the overall family of
these arches. For the classic arch (height above spring points same as
width) we can see by Pythagoras and quite easily identify a pair of
3:4:5 triangles, one on each side (height is 4, radius is 5). So set
the radius of your dividers to 5 quarters of the width, and place the
centre point one quarter _outside_ the width of the overall arch.
For a more squat arch, use a radius of one width.
Anothe arch (a bit later, Tudor rather than Gothic) is the "four
centred arch". Wiki describes the construction.
There's a certain satisfaction about visiting an old site to deliver
some of your own work with properly drawn arches and seeing it fit
perfectly in with what's there. Schadenfreude is when a modern
"arched" doorway at the same site then leaps out at you for _not_
following the right proportions. Once you've seen it, you can eyeball
whether this stuff is right.
As an easy constructional technique, look into laminated multi-layer
MDF or plywood, where you jigsaw shapes firsst, then run a chamfer
cutter over the partial depth, then assemble as a sandwich (trim and
chamfer the outside edge _after_ glueup!)
You can make this sort of thing:
<http://codesmiths.com/shed/furniture/chairs/gothic_chair/>
Note that concetric arcs shoudl be concentric (i.e. same centres),
otherwise they taper and look odd. So nested concentric arcs might
need to choose the best overall position as a compromise (the
proportions of the arcs will change - inners will effectively be
"sharper")
In article <[email protected]>,
Tim Schubach <[email protected]> wrote:
>I want to design a piece of furniture for my daughter who is very much into
>Gothic / Medieval architecture. I've been told that there is a method to
>determining how to shape the top of a Gothic style window or arch that you
>might see in a church or a castle, whether it's poionted or rounded. But so
>far I have not been able to find out anything more.
The classical 'Roman arch' is a simple semi-circle atop straight verticals.
I.e. set a compass arc to 1/2 the distance between the verticals, and
position the compass pin halfway between those same verticals.
The 'Gothic' arch is created by setting a compass to the entire distance
between the verticals, and striking an arc from the top of each vertical.
The Gothic arch is 'taller' than the Roman one, but supports heavier loading.
Both of these designs provide a smooth transition from the vertical element
into the curve of the arch.
One can use 'offset' arcs -- sort-of like the Gothic style, but with the
swing-point of the arc _below_ the top of the verticals. This gives a
'corner' transition between the top of the vertical and the arc. Tends
to look 'less natural' than either the Roman or Gothic designs, but can
be viable if there are other architectural elements to mimic that transition.
>The project is a grandmother clock, and I'm trying to draw out the door on
>the front of the case and the glass panels on the sides. I'm trying to
>figure out if there is a "right way" to make these pieces based on the
>length and width.
The round dial face makes for a 'natural' Roman arch at the top of the
casement.
mixing Roman and Gothic styles tends to look 'wrong' -- even if people
can't say 'why' it looks that way.
Generally the door for accessing the pendulum/weights is done 'square'
to the world. the side glass is commonly square also (if the front is
square-topped), -or- has a Roman arch, _if_ the front of the case has
the 'bubble' on the top.
In article <[email protected]>,
Rajeev <[email protected]> wrote:
>This page has some simple variations on the arch, and instructions on
>constructing them.
>
>http://codesmiths.com/shed/workshop/techniques/arches.htm
>
>I am curious to find out what a grandmother clock is??
One that is not as big as a grandfather clock.
seriously.
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:15:10 -0500, Tim Schubach wrote:
> I want to design a piece of furniture for my daughter who is very much into
> Gothic / Medieval architecture. I've been told that there is a method to
> determining how to shape the top of a Gothic style window or arch that you
> might see in a church or a castle, whether it's poionted or rounded. But so
> far I have not been able to find out anything more.
>
> The project is a grandmother clock, and I'm trying to draw out the door on
> the front of the case and the glass panels on the sides. I'm trying to
> figure out if there is a "right way" to make these pieces based on the
> length and width.
>
> Is there anyone who can point me in the right direction - books, Web sites,
> etc.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Tim
http://www.davewestclocks.co.uk/new%20images%2014/Eureka%203%20ball.jpg
I like the design of this one.
S.
On Nov 12, 6:10 am, [email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
>
> Tim Schubach <[email protected]> wrote:
> >I want to design a piece of furniture for my daughter who is very much into
> >Gothic/ Medieval architecture. I've been told that there is a method to
> >determining how to shape the top of aGothicstyle window or arch that you
> >might see in a church or a castle, whether it's poionted or rounded. But so
> >far I have not been able to find out anything more.
>
> The classical 'Roman arch' is a simple semi-circle atop straight verticals.
> I.e. set a compass arc to 1/2 the distance between the verticals, and
> position the compass pin halfway between those same verticals.
>
> The 'Gothic' arch is created by setting a compass to the entire distance
> between the verticals, and striking an arc from the top of each vertical.
>
> TheGothicarch is 'taller' than the Roman one, but supports heavier loading.
>
> Both of these designs provide a smooth transition from the vertical element
> into the curve of the arch.
>
> One can use 'offset' arcs -- sort-of like theGothicstyle, but with the
> swing-point of the arc _below_ the top of the verticals. This gives a
> 'corner' transition between the top of the vertical and the arc. Tends
> to look 'less natural' than either the Roman orGothicdesigns, but can
> be viable if there are other architectural elements to mimic that transition.
>
> >The project is a grandmother clock, and I'm trying to draw out the door on
> >the front of the case and the glass panels on the sides. I'm trying to
> >figure out if there is a "right way" to make these pieces based on the
> >length and width.
>
> The round dial face makes for a 'natural' Roman arch at the top of the
> casement.
>
> mixing Roman andGothicstyles tends to look 'wrong' -- even if people
> can't say 'why' it looks that way.
>
> Generally the door for accessing the pendulum/weights is done 'square'
> to the world. the side glass is commonly square also (if the front is
> square-topped), -or- has a Roman arch, _if_ the front of the case has
> the 'bubble' on the top.
Thanks for the additional information. I have some ideas for the door
and the side panels, but need to draw some things out to see if I like
the look.
Sun, Nov 11, 2007, 11:15pm [email protected] (Tim=A0Schubach) doth
sayeth:
I want to design a piece of furniture for my daughter who is very much
into Gothic / Medieval architecture. <snip>
The project is a grandmother clock, <sniIs there anyone who can point me
in the right direction - books, Web sites, etc.
A clock AIN'T furniture, and it for sure ain't architecture.
Here's a darkly Gothic clock.
http://www.newmoon.uk.com/dragon/NOW114.jpg And, a German Gothic clock.
http://www.antiqueclockspriceguide.com/priceguideimages/robertoschmitt3/lo=
t583.jpg
If it was me, I'd have HER do a google image search, using GOTHIC
CLOCK, or similar. So she can pick a design she actually likes, not
something she's just being polite about when she thanks you.
Personally, I'd rather have a Gothic chair then a Gothic clock,
grandmother or not, any day. This from one whose relatives have not one
clue about what I'd actually like, and who they never bother to ask.
JOAT
Viet Nam. Divorce. Cancer. Been there, done that, got over it. Now
where the Hell are my T-shirts?
- JOAT
On Nov 12, 12:04 am, Rajeev <[email protected]> wrote:
> This page has some simple variations on the arch, and instructions on
> constructing them.
>
> http://codesmiths.com/shed/workshop/techniques/arches.htm
>
> I am curious to find out what a grandmother clock is??
>
> On Nov 11, 10:15 pm, "Tim Schubach" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I want to design a piece of furniture for my daughter who is very much into
> >Gothic/ Medieval architecture. I've been told that there is a method to
> > determining how to shape the top of aGothicstyle window or arch that you
> > might see in a church or a castle, whether it's poionted or rounded. But so
> > far I have not been able to find out anything more.
>
> > The project is a grandmother clock, and I'm trying to draw out the door on
> > the front of the case and the glass panels on the sides. I'm trying to
> > figure out if there is a "right way" to make these pieces based on the
> > length and width.
>
> > Is there anyone who can point me in the right direction - books, Web sites,
> > etc.
>
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Tim- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks! This was very helpful and just what I was looking for.
On Nov 12, 4:08 pm, Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 12 Nov, 04:15, "Tim Schubach" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I want to design a piece of furniture for my daughter who is very much i=
nto
> >Gothic/ Medieval architecture. I've been told that there is a method to
> > determining how to shape the top of aGothicstyle window or arch that you=
> > might see in a church or a castle, whether it's poionted or rounded.
>
> Wikipedia isn't too bad.
>
> I've got a very good chapter on this myself, but it's not on-line (and
> won't be, sorry) 8-(
>
> Basically, the trisk to "gothic" design isn't hard, but nor is it
> trivial. There are techniques and rules you _must_ follow, or it just
> won't be right. There are also variatiosn within the style where you
> can adjust things and keep them looking right.
>
> Gothicdesign begins with tool - straight edges and dividers. These
> can be string or rulers, compasses or dividers. You _don't_ need to
> measure angles. They couldn't do that in period, don't you be doing it
> now. You'll also need some schoolbook-level Euclidean geometry, such
> as how to construct angles of 90=B0 or 60=B0 with dividers, and how to
> divide lines into equal parts. Maybe Pythagoras too. You'll find a
> setsquare, maybe a 45=B0 square very useful, but there's nothing here
> you can't do purely with those dividers.
>
> To get the "style" right, remember the following:
>
> - It's all done with circular arcs, sometimes with a few straight
> lines. It _doesn't_ use ellipses or parabolas.
>
> - Where an arc joins a tangent to that arc, you get a smooth
> continuous line. Even though the curvature is discontinuous (i.e. it
> suddenly changes from radious to infinite (straight)) then the curve
> is still smooth.
>
> And that's _all_ you need to know. From those, you can work out the
> rest yourself (try it!)
>
> As a "classic"gothicarch, there's the lancet window shape. This has
> a set of proportions such that the overall window can be any size, but
> the curved portion at the head of the window is such that its height
> is the same as the width. "Height" here is measured from the
> "springing points", the points on the sides where the vertical side
> turns into a curve.
>
> >From the 1st condition, we know it's done by drawing two intersecting
>
> arcs with dividers. The questions left now are where to place their
> centres! Symmetry suggests symmetry in placement. So that leaves us
> with "How high up?" the centres should be, and "How far from the
> centre line?"
>
> Our 2nd condition (tangents) answers the first question easily. To get
> a smooth curve through the spring points (to a vertical line below),
> we need to place the centres of the arcs on the same horizontal line
> of the spring points.
>
> To get the arcs to fit the sides, we obviously need to put the centres
> so that they're one radius away from the opposing vertical.
>
> This much holds true for all "Gothic" arches.
>
> Now what radius should we choose? This varies, and it's what's used to
> control the "pointiness" ofGothicarches within the overall family of
> these arches. For the classic arch (height above spring points same as
> width) we can see by Pythagoras and quite easily identify a pair of
> 3:4:5 triangles, one on each side (height is 4, radius is 5). So set
> the radius of your dividers to 5 quarters of the width, and place the
> centre point one quarter _outside_ the width of the overall arch.
>
> For a more squat arch, use a radius of one width.
>
> Anothe arch (a bit later, Tudor rather thanGothic) is the "four
> centred arch". Wiki describes the construction.
>
> There's a certain satisfaction about visiting an old site to deliver
> some of your own work with properly drawn arches and seeing it fit
> perfectly in with what's there. Schadenfreude is when a modern
> "arched" doorway at the same site then leaps out at you for _not_
> following the right proportions. Once you've seen it, you can eyeball
> whether this stuff is right.
>
> As an easy constructional technique, look into laminated multi-layer
> MDF or plywood, where you jigsaw shapes firsst, then run a chamfer
> cutter over the partial depth, then assemble as a sandwich (trim and
> chamfer the outside edge _after_ glueup!)
>
> You can make this sort of thing:
> <http://codesmiths.com/shed/furniture/chairs/gothic_chair/>
>
> Note that concetric arcs shoudl be concentric (i.e. same centres),
> otherwise they taper and look odd. So nested concentric arcs might
> need to choose the best overall position as a compromise (the
> proportions of the arcs will change - inners will effectively be
> "sharper")
Thanks a lot for all of the additional information. I will keep this
on my table as I start to sketch out my design.
I like this site:
http://codesmiths.com/shed/workshop/techniques/arches.htm
I am building a 16th century metal chest with Gothic embellishments and
needed the math to make my non-artistic hen-scratches look decent.
http://www.spaco.org/chest.htm
Pete Stanaitis
----------------------------
Tim Schubach wrote:
> I want to design a piece of furniture for my daughter who is very much into
> Gothic / Medieval architecture.
"Rajeev" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> This page has some simple variations on the arch, and instructions on
> constructing them.
>
> http://codesmiths.com/shed/workshop/techniques/arches.htm
>
> I am curious to find out what a grandmother clock is??
A grandfather clock without the pendulum.
B.